You know "dano" most of the people at Jonestown were pretty decent folks too. But a few extremists caused all of that misery. And how about those few "hardcore" Branch Davidians who gave the rest a bad rap.
You see Planodan when you give total control without question to ANY group or person and give up your free will, its a bad deal. And I have found that most of the Discovery TAs and Facilatators are more than willing to make those tough choices FOR their brainwashees. (be it financial,moral,or personal) They all describe a "foggy" feeling that prevents free will or critical thinking.
I dont undersand exactly why YOU cant understand my last post. Is it a foggy feeling?? Ill try to elaborate-

When you preface a mean comment by saying "My experience of you is_____" what you are really saying is that I wont stand behind this statement, be it because Im just guessing, Im stereotyping you, or I just want to call you an A-hole without actually owning the words I'm saying.

And saying "I acknowledge your position" is a double talk version of saying "I already know how you feel, now listen to how it SHOULD be"
These people are bombarded into accepting and selfishly persuing the groups values and goals(or joy) as their own, and then told anyone without the same values or goals(OR JOY) dont get it and arent worth the trouble. Before they know it Discovery victims have no one left in their life who ARE worth the trouble. Except for the Group!

Suspect
I am thrilled you were able to rebuild your marriage. Not everyone has the same results. Thank you for agreeing discovery uses many of the same drills and techniques as other LGATs.
I agree with the moderator that no meaningful research addressing the long term results exists. From what I have read there seems to be published research on elements needed to produce substantial behavior and attitude change through the use of coercive tactics. LGATs, specifically discovery, does make use of known techniques to influence those in attendance to reach specific desire results.
The following is an excerpt from Richard J. Ofshe, Ph.D. taken from the Encyclopedia of Sociology Volume 1, Macmillan Publishing Company, New York:
The key factors that distinguish coercive persuasion from other training and socialization schemes are:

1. The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance
2. The use of an organized peer group
3. Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity
4. The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment to stabilize behavior once modified

Discovery used these EXACT factors in the training my wife went to.
Here is what I observed from my wife’s involvement related to the above factors:

1. My wife admitted she was destroyed by how the trainer humiliated her in front of the group. She said she would never have agreed if she knew what was coming. She was then love bombed until she felt better.
2. My wife was assigned as a small group leader. She was required to call a list of attendees every Tuesday and report to the large group leader how people were doing and if they had any names and numbers for new participants. It is in writing in the manual they send home with people!
3. Numerous emails and calls from people encouraging her to “live her contract”, make sure she attends the next level of training, and last but not least, sending cards encouraging her to NOT share with her husband because he is not on the same emotional level as her and he would not understand.
4. The group encouraged them to regard their class as their new family. There are alumni parties one weekend a month. One more weekend was scheduled for a reunion of the specific class she attended. Then of course attending additional trainings, volunteering at new trainings. That doesn’t leave much time for their REAL family. And during all of these events the contract or motto they developed about themselves was reinforced.

I am sure someone will post and say it’s not really that way. I have witnessed these things not only with my wife but her mother, sister, aunt, and cousins that have attended. These are cold hard facts. I think I may not be the only one who has observed this first hand.
If discovery were really an upfront business, they would disclose what happens during the trainings, and acknowledge what they are doing is tantamount to practicing medicine without a license. It is a business, I wish they would pay taxes like the rest of us, and abide by the same laws that I live by.
Did anyone else notice justplanodan and suspect both stated not EVERYONE has bad experiences with discovery I am glad they are at least admitting some do have bad experiences.
EC

Ok, I pulled the trigger too quick sending the last post. I have more thoughts. justlanodan wanted to understand "I acknowlege your position" and "I experience you as". those are thought stopping phrases. Classic ericsonian tecniques again.
Another one my wife started using is "meet me where I am at", which is littered throughout the flyers discovery sends out.
justplanodan, why cant you get it? Those phrases are meant to stop the conversation, and cause one person to try and decipeher what the hell that phrase means. That opens the door to plant a suggestion or request. Its a tactic to steer the other person in a new direction.
I am sorry you cannot understand that. Seriously, read about Dr. Milton Ericson and how he used phrases to plant suggestions. Its really not that hard a concept if you will open our mind and "experience" it.

EC

Whoa newbie! I don't have to "accept" anything. That's your reality, not mine.

Okay..maybe you guys missed understood what I said. I did not say that I didn't understand the phrases "I acknowledge your position" and "I experience you as". What I said was that I did not understand what Suspect meant by how those phrases selfishly cause one to pursue their own joy. That doesn't make sense. I understand the phrases completly.

and the phrase "meet you were you are at"... That is what we..and by we I mean everyone that has and hasnt' gone through discovery are supposed to do. I am not sure what religion you all are, but in the Christian faith that is what we are required to do. "meet people where they are".

Life is about being open...transparent with others. Regarding the 'foggy' feeling you are referring to... that was never the case. No one ever speaks for you. You always speak for yourself. Set your own goals, action steps, etc. This is about you taking care of you.

Enviro - cop.. just on a side note. Your wife volunteered to be the small group leader. She was not assigned. You volunteer for that position. but in my same breath.. I do agree with you that the card stating 'to not share with your husband' was out of line. I am not sure why anyone would send that, but just to give you an idea of my experience.... they all encourage me to share everything with my spouse. EVERYTHING. to be as open with her as possible. so I am not really sure why they would say that to her.

You wife needs to learn how to prioritize her schedule. Like I mentioned earlier..some people go a little overboard. I have not been able to make it to one of those monthly dinners, because my wife and I haven't been able to attend due to our own schedules. That isn't required...the reunions with the class are not required...the volunteering to help is not required. Nothing is required and if your wife is saying it is, she is mistaken or giving you incorrect information.

The reason I say that not everyone has a bad experience is because it is true. I am not naive to know that people WILL have a bad experience, just like I am not naive to know that some people have had bad experiences at a christian church. It happens and that sucks. And it is sad.

but I had a great experience. But at the same time I know how to prioritize my time. Always...my God comes first and then my family. always. everything else is second.

I am not on here to change everyone's opinion about this training. I am just here to give you all another insight and answer any questions that I can. Because I have been through it and at the same time I know that things can be difficult.

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Enviro_Cop
Ok, I pulled the trigger too quick sending the last post. I have more thoughts. justlanodan wanted to understand "I acknowlege your position" and "I experience you as". those are thought stopping phrases. Classic ericsonian tecniques again.
Another one my wife started using is "meet me where I am at", which is littered throughout the flyers discovery sends out.
justplanodan, why cant you get it? Those phrases are meant to stop the conversation, and cause one person to try and decipeher what the hell that phrase means. That opens the door to plant a suggestion or request. Its a tactic to steer the other person in a new direction.
I am sorry you cannot understand that. Seriously, read about Dr. Milton Ericson and how he used phrases to plant suggestions. Its really not that hard a concept if you will open our mind and "experience" it.

EC

They are not "Ericsonian". Ericsonian phrases are things like "Stupid is as stupid does" or other nonsense.Saying "I experience you as" is a very valid statement. It is the same thing as saying to someone that you are hearing or seeing one thing ("experiencing" it), but also acknowledging that their meaning may have been different than the communication that was received.

"Meet me where I am" is a way of saying that you don't have to be at any particlar social or spiritual level to gain something from the training. It is a way of saying that anyone has something to gain from discovery no matter their station in life.


Unless you have attended there is no way that you can judge the exercises as being cultish or "Ericsonian" (which they are far from). These are assertions based on speculation at best. There is NO conformity expected, they want people to be individuals, and most of the exercises are about discovering who that individual is and what is standing in our way (fear, anger, laziness).

notmuch4games. Comparing discovery with Jonestown or Branch Davidians is ridiculous and takes credibility away from your post. No one surrenders total control to anyone throughout discovery. There is no therapy offered (though many of the exercises are therapeutic), no words are put into anyones mouths. I have never experienced (nor know anyone who has) a "foggy feeling", in fact I experienced total clarity about the importance of my family and my role as a husband and father. Not a single T.A. or facilitator tried to make any decisions for me whether they were moral, financial, or personal. To suggest that they do is a flat out lie from someone who is speaking out of ignorance.

Many of you make comments about discoveries practices as if they are fact, when you actually have no knowledge of the process itself.

If someone comes to discovery who is in an abusive relationship that is destroying them, and through the discovery they find the courage to break free or stand up for themselves, is that "wrecking homes", or is that helping someone to save their selves. How many spouses need a means to find the courage to leave a violent environment? I guess some guys get mad when they have spent years breaking their wives down with verbal and mental abuse, and then they dare to go along and triy to gain some self worth. If that abusive, joke of a marriage breaks as a result of Discovery training, then GOOD, they got the hell out before it was too late!!!!

As for my experience, My relationship with my wife was good but not great before discovery. Now that my wife and I have both atteneded it has only been better. Sorry to dissapoint that we did not come home and divorce.

The track record is that when anyone posts who has a positive experience with Discovery you immediately attack and mock them so prove me right and have at it.

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Vic-Luc
Whoa newbie! I don't have to "accept" anything. That's your reality, not mine.

So you are saying that the overwhelming percentage of people who get a positive experience from discovery are mere figments of the imagination, or are you just choosing to ignore reality? The reality is that not everyone who goes to discovery has a bad experience (in fact the reality is that a huge majority of the people have their lives changed for the better), that reality is based on fact, what is yours based on Vic...other than extreme, uneducated, bias?

Otts:

Has Discovery ever done a study to measure any meaningful long-term objective results that its graduates have achieved such as sustained increased income, students gaining and maintaining a higher grade point average, a lower rate of divorce or less need for professional counseling amongst its participants?

A long-term study, which was peer reviewed and published within a credible journal, could potentially demonstrate that Discovery has meaningful objective results that are not simply subjective, i.e. based upon personal opinion, feelings, anecdotal stories and individual testimonials.

It seems that no matter how much money LGATs make they never fund such a study and have it published.

Wonder why?

Could it be that LGATs know there are no measurable objective results that they produce?

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rrmoderator
Otts:

Has Discovery ever done a study to measure any meaningful long-term objective results that its graduates have achieved such as sustained increased income, students gaining and maintaining a higher grade point average, a lower rate of divorce or less need for professional counseling amongst its participants?

A long-term study, which was peer reviewed and published within a credible journal, could potentially demonstrate that Discovery has meaningful objective results that are not simply subjective, i.e. based upon personal opinion, feelings, anecdotal stories and individual testimonials.

It seems that no matter how much money LGATs make they never fund such a study and have it published.

Wonder why?

Could it be that LGATs know there are no measurable objective results that they produce?

Wow...I dont know. Thats a good question, but I will find out.

In my honest opinion I think that it is to hard to define "long-term objective results" Maybe a person actually gets a divorce, has a lower GPA, or takes a cut in pay as a result from discovery, but maybe that person was being physically abused, so wrapped up in school that they were ignoring their personal life, or such a workaholic that they were losing their family.

A study would have to have clearly defined dependant and independant variables, but the variables themselves would be based on an individuals perception of self-defined success wich is totally based on feelings and changes from person to person...a pretty intangible thing. It would seem like with a study like that it would be hard to clearly measure the outcome. I do however acknowledge that such a study is not impossible to get together and would only help Discovery, and would be an encouragement to frustrated spouses of an attendee to go themselves.

I will make it a point to ask about a survey or study and get back to you (probably after thanksgiving though)

Otts:

What they will probably offer is essentially opinion polls, which measure subjective reactions to the LGAT, i.e. how participants "feel" about the "experience."

There is no disputing that LGATs often have a profound influence upon how a participant feels or their "perception," which is actually one of the criticisms about LGATs, i.e. that they often manipulate a participant's emotions and thinking process.

Landmark Education makes the claim that they have a so-called "technology" that produces net results. And that the results are so good they justify companies using the seminars for employee training, as a form of improvement that will make a difference at work objectively.

However, Landmark has no meaningful long-term study that demonstrates objective measurable results, which has been peer-reviewed and published within a credible journal.

Despite the fact that Landmark reports gross income of $60-$70 million per year, which means the company could easily fund such research.

Landmark is a good example, since it's something like the "big daddy" of LGATs, and quite often LGATs are essentially spin-offs of Landmark.

It isn't hard to measure objective results, LGATs just have chosen to avoid such analysis.

And when LGAT results are bad, such as a participant later experiencing a cut in pay, loss of job, divorce, lower grades at school etc., the LGAT and/or its supporters will often attempt to blame the participant, rather than accept any responsibility concerning what can be seen as the influence of the program.

It's ironic how LGATs preach about "taking responsibility, but frequently avoid taking responsibility for their influence and the negative results that their programs may produce.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2007 12:36AM by rrmoderator.