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Ivy
There is lots of information on the Yahoo site (ex_mkp@yahoogroups.com)
Its a cult, nodoubt!

No Doubt. Just ask the thousands of men who have gone to the weekend and still live their regular, normal lives.

Well, how about the thousands of men who up and left their wives, or came home from this weekend a different person and not for the better! I have seen many post, though I would like to get a count! Kind of hard with all the secrets!

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Ivy
Well, how about the thousands of men who up and left their wives, or came home from this weekend a different person and not for the better! I have seen many post, though I would like to get a count! Kind of hard with all the secrets!

Lets have facts, Ivy.... Do you know of 1000 men that have left their wives after joining MKP? Do you know of thousands? Can you even find references to 100?

If not, why post something like that? MKP is responsible for enough half-truths and deception on their own, why should we have to engage in it?

BTW, I don't believe that MKP is a cult either. It doesn't fit the definition.
If you think it's a cult, maybe you should review the standards and/or go through the experience.
It certainly fits the definition of LGAT and doesn't disclose the things that they should up front... I also believe that their process has done significant harm to some men.

A cult... I think a sarcastic "no doubt" said it best.
--Another Ex-MKP cultist. Somehow I've managed to hold onto some of my personal belonings... 8)

Ivy,
You complain about MKP not answering questions.
How about answering mine.
Provide some basis in FACT for the your statement above:
"....thousands of men who up and left their wives..."

Or was this meant for dramatic effect? It's important to qualify the two, because if thounsands of men are leaving their wives after going through NWTA, I can't see how this makes men better husbands... If it's based on nothing but negative opinion, then you need to stop scaring wives who are probably scared enough already by the secrecy in the process.

Nope, I cant



But When I have read a lot of the men's bios and seen when they joined and when they stated recently divorced,
or post a note on how they are not happy and are thinking about leaving .....after 10 years, but I guess just didn't have the balls to do it without the I group acting like therapist!
knowing what I do and for the app. 50 woman and getting more and more (since we found out secrets, spilled them and then when there husbands come home a different man and get more and more different and they start seeking for answers here) I's not hard to read between the lines....... Oh I did mention I was looking for the answers.... Do you know 10000 that are?? How about you?


My husband, started using words like, Your Not accountable for this or that?
Comradery of the group?
Integrity? PLEASE!!!!!!!
Sharing Less and Less, go to the I groups and slowly changing before my eyes and I would have been another one added to the list!

Ginha, They do the scholar thing to hype you up, and expect you to "Pay it forward to help sponsor somebody else when hooked! Kind of a guilt thing? I mean after all, "I paid this amount of money for you, didn't you get anything out of it? Which most guys will agree, something, so they feel the need to pay for the next guy!" Every I group they go to the paid and some is more that others, but some you can pay as you go, say $10 a week so you may never miss the $90 for the first 9 weeks if you husband or boyfriend is not telling you! Then to do the staffing you have to have all these other thing under you belt that cost, and "Whattodo" can tell you more about the rest!

I goggled mkp and lgat today and noticed that this was the only rickross forum listed in the first three pages of results. So I thought that I would let those new to this discussion know that a more extended discussion of mkp and its LGAT characteristics can be found on another thread (as many of you "regulars" know) at: [board.culteducation.com]

Just don't want googlers to miss such an interesting thread that compliments this one so well.

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frank_d
It seems to me that a group that has SOME MEASURE of positives shouldn't be attacked at 100% 'bad'.

I agree, FrankD. I think that your intentions of having a balanced discussion are genuine, and mkp is not 100% bad. However, some people posting on this board have had family members hurt by their participation in mkp, and I think that sometimes it is hard to see any good that could have come out of the weekend through their wall of pain.

On that note, though, I do not think it is fair for anti-mkp'ers to take their anger out on you or others who share any good experiences with mkp. As you, RU?ing, and What2do have all noted, mkp isn't all good or bad, and a blanaced discussion will help us sort out the positives and negatives.

But I cannot help but wonder if an alternative male-focused therapy might be available that sends fewer "red flags" to men and their loved ones. I know that tradtional clinical therapy is a safer choice, but there is obviously still a hesitancy for somme men to go to something dubbed "therapy." (Perhaps the stigma that going to therapy is "weak" vs. a "new warrior" weekend that sounds more adventurous?)

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I personally didn't see any of the 'extreme' things I've heard mentioned

I respect your right to share your positive experience, but don't discount the horrific events that have occured during some of these mkp weekends (or the fallout after the weekend) shared by men and their loved ones on these boards. Just because you had a good time at the one weekend you went to (as well as a few of your friends at their weekends), it doesn't mean that these horrific events didn't happen at other weekends to other men.

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We weren't starved, humiliated coerced or sleep deprived. We ate alot of granola and apples and yes we had to take a cold shower one morning.

I'm glad that you were not starved, humiliated, or sleep deprived, but it seems as though many men are by reading the posts on these boards. By contrast, my hubby felt starved by the granola and apple diet. Not to mention that neuroscience will tell you that the brain requires a high supply of protein for logical reasoning. (Apples and granola do not contain protein.) Also, one quarter of our caloric intake is used for brain energy consumption. (I don't think that 1/4 the caloric intake of granola and apples adds up to too much fuel for the brain.) My hubby lost 5 lbs. in 2 days. Sounds like he was starving to me. My hubby was also humilated, but I won't go into the specific ways in which he was (other than yelling, peer pressure to get naked, and stripping him of all his "identity" items as though his identity choices before that weekend did not matter to mkp).

Also, he did not get any more than 5 hours of sleep any given night. And as most of us know, 7-8 hours are recommended for full brain functioning. Although I realize that some men can function well on less than that standard recommendation by doctors, my hubby does not. His body subscribes to the 7-8 hour recommendation. So he felt sleep deprived. And he didn't care for the cold shower either.

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Then I see hysterical responses from women who are terrified their men are running off to become another 'Jim Jones' fanatic. How does that help anybody? It makes the people who went and had a good experience feel bad and the nervous women whose men went feel terrified they will lose them.

I agree that fear breeds fear, but some compassion for what some of these women are going through after finding out some of the ways in which their partners were abused is probably in order here. Because my hubby was not treated as well as he should be (albeit not as poorly as some of the testimonials shared on these boards), I can understand the great concern and fear some of these women have for their partners and their relationships. I was there for a few days before my husband had the time, sleep, energy, and nutrition to distinguish what was helpful and what was harmful about his weekend. I was fearful that he may go back for more (or that he would continue to be recruited) and wondered how that may impact out relationship. Fortunately, the leader who took a special interest in him gave my hubby his space after the weekend and he was able to do the research he needed to be satisfied with his decision to not return to mkp.

Thanks for your good intentions, FrankD. Just remember that most of the people on this board also have good intentions, although they may not agree with you. Your compassion for their expereinces may serve as an example to be more compassionate with yours.

See you on the other board, Frank. I know I owe you a response over there. Just thought I'd see what was going on over on this board. Take care. :)

I found this site this morning when I typed "money shadows mkp" and some other keywords. I did not know what I was going to find when I skimmed this link.

I see this "destructive cults, controversial groups and movements" on the homepage. Listed there in the top 10 are the Mormon Church, which is the primary social group in the area where I live.

I did not see a definition of "cult." Is the Roman Catholic church a cult? The Democratic party? The NBA/NCAA (sports)? The WCW (pro wrestling/ theatre)? NATO?


So, as for me, I am relatively newly active to MKP- just over 2 years. I also participated in something called the Inner King training (www.innerking.com), which I actually liked even better, though I would like to be more active in MKP. I particularly enjoyed my experiences with the weekly group when I lived in a big city (where such a group existed).

Let me give a bit more context before I get into my experience of this forum. I also found, this morning, on that same search, a link to a forum about the Maharaji and "premies."

There were active "premies" who participated on that forum- which I presume to mean active members of a formal organization with the initials DLM (Divine Light Ministries). They wrote about living in the ashram centers, investing all their money and time in service projects, as directed by "senior premies," and so on.

I know little about DLM. (I know more about MKP, but how much?) I could see that lots of these folks expressed clear animosity for the leader that they had followed, Maharaji. I also read some things that MIGHT be questionable about that leader.

For instance, if one preaches against polygamy, yet practices it, that is notably inconsistent. If one preaches acceptance of polygamy and practices it, that if either familiar or unfamiliar depending on one's cultural background (Islam compared to celibate monastacism with culturally condoned mutilation of children's genitals- what some might even call sexual abuse- such as circumcision, etc). Myself, I am absolutely against all preaching ;)


So, let's broaden our discussion for a moment from MKP to "mind control." If someone visits my www.TruthSetFree.com website, they will see numerous links to David Icke and Jiddu Krishnamurti. David Icke is perhaps one of the more controversial celebrities in Great Britain in recent decades. One of his favorite topics is mainstream mind control, including the public education system, but also commercial advertising and the training programs of the military. I say the military because the military is generally consistent amongst the various militaries: axis/ally, communist/terrorist/freedom fighter, 12th century/21st century, Crusade/Jihad etc etc etc....

Militaries are perhaps the one type of organization whose specific and explicit objective typically includes mass destruction. Yet, "the military" is not on the top 10 list of this site- perhaps THAT would be "too" controversial (too true).

A bit more context. Unlike Icke, Jiddu Krishnamurti addresses how culture, notice the ure at the end of the word cult, cult-ure is a process of behavioral conditioning, i.e. what Icke calls mind control. Jiddu's "study" is much less specific than Icke's, as he explores such things as how different languages influence our perceptions and thinking processes. The key, if I may be so bold, is honoring the mystic hologram of life, rather the illusionary isolationism of all isms (including generally Christianity and other "pseudo-isms"). For illusions, the solution I suggest is dis-illusionment: insight, choosing truth.

In contrast, Icke tends towards the shocking. Jiddu tended (when he was alive) to towards the everyday- and with no particular sense of condemnation that I could identify. He spoke with alarm about racism, sexism, and nationalism (as in nazionalism), but not really with condemnation. He spoke with compassion for those conducting such patterns in their lives. Even Icke does that in reference to his "villain:" the central banker "gargoyles."


So, now to my experience in reading this forum. I witness that some are recovering from loss, such as divorce. I witness that loss being associated with MKP. I did not mich witness the healing of that sense of loss being healed, and I invite us to consider that healing may include deeply and personally experiencing that sense of loss- fully and even responsibly.

Yes, I might associate any experiencing of grief with a specific divorce, for instance, and sequence of events in time. In such a case, it might be best for me to reduce exposure to such things that might trigger "too much pain-" even eliminate such exposure, at least temporarily.

Does this mean that I withdraw from everyone who I know has been divorced? Maybe. From my kids that remind me of my own divorce or widowing- well...?

So, if we associate grief with a certain external, let's withdraw from that external- even for just an hour here and there. Let's resolve the grief by grieving or whatever else may work. let's even concentrate on that trauma- if that helps- though I have no faith in psychiatric therapy except for gestalt and similar modes. Let's heal any illness!

Maybe later we can face exposure to that old trigger and it no longer triggers us. But let's honor the trigger- and the grief or whatever else is there- for, if it arises, it is part of our life. So let's honor our lives.

Now, does a person who is a serial divorcee, a widower, or addicted to abuse heal completely in a single weekend? Maybe not. My understanding is that a large proportion of mainstream abusers were themselves abused, and perhaps unless they grieve for their own abuse, they remain sensitive to explode at certain triggers.

I cannot put into words here the various range of abuse that I have suffered, witnessed, and committed. I am not referring so much to physical abuse but ab-use as a specific subcategory of mis-use.

I went to a Landmark session once. I did not perceive abuse there. I did perceive commercialism... not particularly unlike the average grocery store.

I went to a Mormon church function- actually several. I did not perceive unconditional acceptance there, yet I was comfortable enough to return to a few different things- for better or worse. (Boy, do those kids make a lot of noise during their testimonies- which tend not to be very spontaneous from what I witnessed?)


So, here's my only specific comment for now on MKP. At weekly meetings, I felt safe and accepted there making reference to abuse I have experienced and committed. I witnessed healing and I experienced healing. I cannot say that a single issue of complication in my life was absolutely resolved in a few hours group session- and I am very grateful just the same. I would not have been so comfortable with a single "professional" which I have also tried with several different folks- some better than others.

I did not walk out of there a saint, but I did not walk in a saint either- not even a latter-day saint. Is MKP controversial? That isn't my concern, really. Controversy is in the eye of the beholder.

Would I stop paying taxes if I disagreed with one little "peace-keeping bomb?" I know people who have. I was never really much into taxes myself (or "peace-keeping bombs").

If I was afraid of some controversy, I might chose to sacrifice involvement in one thing for another. If I watch channel 9, I do not watch channel 6. If I get married, I release my vow of monastic celibacy (okay, I was never much for celibacy either).

But controversy is not the issue. Choice is the issue. I am grateful for the choices I have had, and the choices I have made, even those I may regret- now or later.

In a weekly circle, I was welcomed, even with the controversy my words kindled for others. I spoke explicitly of acts of abuse that day amongst a group of folks- men incidentally- some of whom could easily relate most to one of the parties referenced in my "confession" - but not so much me. I spoke of the distress that I experienced- terror, anger, self-hatred, etc- in the midst of some the incidents I retold.

Other people might have withdrawn from such "controversy," and that is fine. There is a time for secrecy. There was even the opportunity for any man to step out of that circle- or even interject, though that is not particularly encouraged.

While in that circle, I could unselfconsciously identify specific people I have injured or intentionally lied to etc, but if those confidences were broken, that might not be for the best interest of those others identified- or it might. There is even a time for dropping secrecy.

So, perhaps I have lived in a culture of abuse, of punishment, of shame, of blame, of deceit. Perhaps that is not the only kind of culture there is. I generally like the "culture" of MKP so far. Let's not confuse secrecy with deceit.

It is the sincere lies- the words of denial and faithful superstitious error- that concern me more. If a man in that circle had been triggered by my words, the circle was there not just for me and not just for him, but for us.

Yes, circles can develop into triangles and cliques. Just make sure that you consider putting "sunday school" and "public school" on your LGAT list. And if you don't think you should, consider the possiblity that I may have been an abusive teacher in one of those contexts. You may say "but all the classes I went to were wonderful." Wonderful! That doesn't change any abuse that I experienced or committed in such a setting, does it?

Let's not target the organization and forget that specific people are involved. Is a soldier absolved of all wrong-doing because she was following the orders of a so-called "superior" at her particular convent? Only if it was the same convent I belong to? Only if it is the group targetting "righteous" mass destruction- the one I support or participate in?

Let's not target only a few people and forget that some organizations are designed for destruction- from the beginning to the end. Instead, let's confess what we have personally done if we feel moved to do so, then repent, share forgiveness and healing.

I have more of that to do. I have done some of that with MKP. I had confidence in my weekly groups from what I witnessed- and I did not need to say a word to be welcome (I could have remained silent- EVERYTHING is voluntary, from attendance to participation).

I am going to a traditional shamanic training this weekend. It is all about repentance and responsibility. Those of you who are familiar with MKP may know that it shares much with Native American traditions that were so controversial that people were killed for those practices as recently as- what - 1977, yeah? The genocide of the indigenous is a mainstay of all imperialist colonial military conquests, no?

Was a Sioux sweatlodge a threat to the USA? No, the Sioux were just a perceived obstacle to the conquest of the atlantic to the pacific, right? Since no Europeans (except for Gaelic, Druid, scandinavian sauna-users etc etc etc) did sweatlodges, condemning sweatlodges and killing people for "committing" them was as least as logical as the criminalization of gold ownership in the USA in 1933.


I am sorry- sorrowed- sad- for all the difficulties that we bring now to this encounter with each other- to this exchange. I have been angry and afraid, and now I am just sorry for that too.

I know that others can forgive me- no matter what I have done or failed to do- for love is that powerful. That forgiveness, when they are ready, will be as much a blessing to them as my exchagne of resentment fror forgiveness has been for me. I even forgive others that I have resented and condemned and attacked- physically or otherwise. I am sorry for the attacks- by me, to me, etc. I am sorry for all the reasons that were used to defend the attacks- that the attacker was attacked first or worse or almost.

I am sorry for the angerings. I am sorry for the fearings. I am responsible for this choice I make now- to make amends- to correct- to heal- myself and others.

That is why I explored MKP. That is why I am still.

Any error that I may make as I do so, and any error that I may make as I do otherwise, are you willing to allow me the opportunity to do right- even at the risk of error? Are you willing to allow that of yourself?

Withdraw from and release all that does not serve, that does not fulfill. Even if that is a polygamist marriage. But do not stop there.

Clear all that impairs. Even if that is a vow of eternal celibacy. But, do not stop there.

Enact all that does serve, that does help, that does fulfill. Even if that may involve controversy. When we are done there, stop.


-
Taking Care, We Fare Well!

jr144:

If you look back on this thread and/or read the site in more detail you will find there is specific information that you overlooked.

First note the disclaimer.

See [board.culteducation.com]

And also [www.culteducation.com]

Simply because a group has a subsection within the database does not mean it is a "cult."

Some of the groups listed have been called "cults" many have not.

Regarding the definition of a destructive cult.

See [www.culteducation.com]

The military is not a "cult."

See [www.culteducation.com]

There are also differing degrees and distinctions regarding persuasion techniques, such as education, advertising, propaganda, indoctrination and thought reform often called "brainwashing."

See [www.culteducation.com]

Mass marathon training seminars or weekends, such as MKP, seem to have the same sort of problems repeatedly and generate similar complaints.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Look back on this thread for analysis of the specfic issues regarding MKP.

When you jump in on a thread, perhaps you should research a bit more what has been said and further information.