ManKind Project?
Posted by:
jr144
()
Date: September 29, 2006 11:10PM
Greetings,
I did read some of the introductory material before posting. Perhaps you (the prior respondent) "overlooked" the point of what I wrote- or just did not get it. That is okay. I was not writing to you personally. I enjoyed writing it.
As for such introductory material, I saw reference to "crystals." I love that example. I'll come back to that.
Here's one of the several definitions of "cult" from Webster's, according to this site:
"5. a: A great devotion to a person, idea, thing;"
A great devotion, eh? That's all!
"5. a: A great devotion to a person, idea, thing;
esp.: such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad"
Regarded as a fad by whom? How about by me?
Let's take the idea of crystals, especially as used for alleged telepathic communication. This idea, devoted to greatly by a certain cult of scientists, resulted in such things as radio, television, and cell phone communications. Except perhaps for cable TV, that is all "telepathic" communication based on crystal (quartz) resonance. Even many wristwatches feature crystals for their unique energetic properties.
The great devotion to that idea that something is not true simply because it is unfamiliar is called superstition- by me. The flat earth hypothesis is perhaps the most famous example. The great devotion to the idea that ___ is a horrible cult is another.
Hence my prior reference to "the sincere lie." I understand that some of us just may not get it. If we *know* that crystals and round earths and so on are unworthy of exploring, then we won't explore it, and we won't experience it. Same with MKP or anything else.
I have no great stake in convincing you of anything- that quartz crystals are functional in telecommuncation that traditional people might call witchcraft. So be it.
I have no qualm with a concern for "hate groups" and for hate, and invite that we each accept responsibility for any hate we conduct, such as hate for the quartz crystal cult or MKP. I define my life, what I consider a cult, what I consider superstition, what I choose to hate, or what else I might choose instead- even if I have been "brainwashed" into rejecting the round earth hypothesis simply because it is not familiar. I can accept responsibility and I do.
>
There are also differing degrees and distinctions regarding persuasion techniques, such as education, advertising, propaganda, indoctrination and thought reform often called "brainwashing."
>
True. Yet, education is not fundamentally persuasion. Mainstream public education, derived from free Prussian military prep boarding academies of yesteryear, may be fundamentally persuasion, but all "education?"
I can study something and learn without being educated by anyone else. Consider quartz technology, for instance. Some scientists pursued learning by experience, not by seeking to be persuaded or to persuade.
Had they just read the predominant literature, they might have ignored such "superstitious" ideas as electrical currents and vibrating energy called matter.
So, let my concern be around the process of pre-meditated persuasion. All forms of it are distinct, and all share a common factor which I consider rather unappealing. On that note, I stand against all preaching, so let me say little or none as my hypocrisy is already breaking my "straight face" into a smile. Or let me say delicately.
Perhaps, moderator, you have never been in jail or in the military or in the detention camps of the USA for the indigenous and Japanese and in Germany for the 12 million, only 6 million of whom were Jewish, to my knowledge. Perhaps you have not witnessed the high priests in their black robes and wigs conducting the civil religious ceremonies of the martial courts. I do not know that many of those detained or captured would have been grateful, but my experience with MKP is deep with gratitude, no matter how much hate anyone may have for me or it.
I am grateful even for this exchange. I have seen stories in which even in the midst of the institutions of destruction, gratitude was shared. I have met victims of military torture. I met a lady who was a slave in her youth in Asia. The torture victim was an elderly Tibetan monk, Paulden Gyatso, and he was one of the most well-adjsuted people I have ever met.
So, I am not really interested in the specific issues people associate with MKP or this or that, indeed I am not sure what issues those might be except in general fear and anger obviously. I am not really all that interested in the specific issue of persuasion even, as much as I go on about it.
I ask: what is most relevant? What is most responsible? What do I value most?
I have my own experience with MKP. If someone has a question about MKP, they can research the thread or contact me or both. I would invite them to contact me in particular if they consider MKP spefically relevant and attractive to them. As I said previously, I recommend other "programs" even more.
MKP does absolutely involve persuasion, and yes education. I do not deny or defend that. The experiential education is far more consciously appreciated by me than the preaching, but that's me.
MKP is also clearly perceived as threatening to some people. I understand that it is not as innocent as a mere sweatlodge. It is an initiation ceremony, adapted for modern times, but drawn from ancient traditions. There are open weekly groups (while some have prerequisites, similar to college). If you think MKP is a bigger threat to your identity or prosperity than the mafia's organized crime operations of governing the masses with centralized banking credits, that shows your perceptual filter and what you depend on psychically (psychologically). If you experience pain that you associate with it, there is much pain and many proximate sources. There is also much healing. What do I choose to identify with?
I forecast financial markets, among other things. People in general are almost always surprised by changes in economic trends- from recessions to booms to depressions. Market forecasters in general are not.
My identity- my life- is my choice. I identify MKP as primarily a *deprogramming practice, not a programming practice. If you oppose it because in it, people systematically define words like integrity (or cult), so be it. I jest.
If you are really concerned about *influential "secret societies", is there a topic on the Fabian Society, Skull and Bones, and even the CFR? I suspect that in the cartoon here (if you read the caption and especially if you have seen the movie Wag the Dog), I do a bit to undermine brainwashing as well as evolve confused complaining into clarity: www. TruthSetFree.com
I suggest that [those DBA] MKP does not "generate" complaints. It invites them or at least accepts them, and yes attracts some too- and proposes specific ways to deal with complaints and challenge- not just within the circle of men, but in general. Does that mean that there are no overzealous or abusive participants in MKP? No.
I don't know what has been done at every MKP event, but I would probably be angry too. Indeed I feel angry now, and I already was before I went to an MKP event.
I'm told that there are organizations who intentionally seek to infiltrate perceived threats to hegemony, with their undercover operations of sabotage. Is undercover sabotage "righteous" as long as it is the CIA or LAPD? What if they infiltitrate the Black Panthers (for instance) and then cause controversy relating to cocaine, de-railing the "threat?" Is that just effective politics? Maybe it is! Is that what MKP does? Is that what has been done to MKP? I don't know. What I do know is that complaining can be exhausting! Let's have fun with it or have fun with something else....
Let's feel whatever we feel- any grief and pain- and any gratitude and healing. Let's recognize that another undercover sabotage in response to the prior undercover sabotage against us does not end undercover sabotage, but perpetuates undercover sabotage.
Who is responsible for my experience? Who can cultivate grace- honor it?
MKP is only most relevant if it helps me in that. If not, there is nothing to discuss about it, for me.
I know people who complain frequently about the IRS or the FDA. I understand their complaints. I presume that you can sense from my other comments that while I may not condemn various mainstream operations, neither do I condone them.
I am more interested in healing... and only understanding within that context. I don't need to understand everything in detail.
I saw something in this website about MKP's indemnity clauses- critical and suspicious. They are a lot like a high school sports indemnity clause. I have had more harm done to me by MDs than by MKP (none?)- and I didn't even get the disclosure of seeing an indemnity clause- like the warning label on cigarettes or prescription meds ("may cause side unexpected side effects such as impotence, blindness, paralysis and/or death"). I don't want to sue the MDs for that harm; I want responsibility and a recognition of what is harmful and what is helpful- first for myself!
If the MDs were misled or devious or just accidentally amputated the wrong leg (negligent systematically if not personally), I am still responsible for the choices I make now. How do I practice as an MD- or otherwise?
I would sacrifice the potential of your sympathy for the potential of our celebration that I witness now the immediate source of some serious challenges for me. Even more relevant, I witness the source of root solutions, resolutions, for me.
Yes, I've been operating according to dysfunctional programs that exhaust me in my complainings and otherwise. But how relevant is that now?
My choice is that my own responsibility is most relevant to me- as I partner with systems of which I compose a tiny part, but that changes everything. Upon the tree of life, there is a branch, and that branch is entirely the tree. Upon that branch, there is a stem, and that stem is entirely the branch, and entirely the tree. Welcome.
Life was starting to really make me mad when suddenly, I woke up. How are you?
>>>>
Moderator:
If you look back on this thread and/or read the site in more detail you will find there is specific information that you overlooked.
First note the disclaimer.
See [board.culteducation.com]
And also [www.culteducation.com]
Simply because a group has a subsection within the database does not mean it is a "cult."
Some of the groups listed have been called "cults" many have not.
Regarding the definition of a destructive cult.
See [www.culteducation.com]
The military is not a "cult."
See [www.culteducation.com]
There are also differing degrees and distinctions regarding persuasion techniques, such as education, advertising, propaganda, indoctrination and thought reform often called "brainwashing."
See [www.culteducation.com]
Mass marathon training seminars or weekends, such as MKP, seem to have the same sort of problems repeatedly and generate similar complaints.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Look back on this thread for analysis of the specfic issues regarding MKP.
When you jump in on a thread, perhaps you should research a bit more what has been said and further information.
I did read some of the introductory material before posting. Perhaps you (the prior respondent) "overlooked" the point of what I wrote- or just did not get it. That is okay. I was not writing to you personally. I enjoyed writing it.
As for such introductory material, I saw reference to "crystals." I love that example. I'll come back to that.
Here's one of the several definitions of "cult" from Webster's, according to this site:
"5. a: A great devotion to a person, idea, thing;"
A great devotion, eh? That's all!
"5. a: A great devotion to a person, idea, thing;
esp.: such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad"
Regarded as a fad by whom? How about by me?
Let's take the idea of crystals, especially as used for alleged telepathic communication. This idea, devoted to greatly by a certain cult of scientists, resulted in such things as radio, television, and cell phone communications. Except perhaps for cable TV, that is all "telepathic" communication based on crystal (quartz) resonance. Even many wristwatches feature crystals for their unique energetic properties.
The great devotion to that idea that something is not true simply because it is unfamiliar is called superstition- by me. The flat earth hypothesis is perhaps the most famous example. The great devotion to the idea that ___ is a horrible cult is another.
Hence my prior reference to "the sincere lie." I understand that some of us just may not get it. If we *know* that crystals and round earths and so on are unworthy of exploring, then we won't explore it, and we won't experience it. Same with MKP or anything else.
I have no great stake in convincing you of anything- that quartz crystals are functional in telecommuncation that traditional people might call witchcraft. So be it.
I have no qualm with a concern for "hate groups" and for hate, and invite that we each accept responsibility for any hate we conduct, such as hate for the quartz crystal cult or MKP. I define my life, what I consider a cult, what I consider superstition, what I choose to hate, or what else I might choose instead- even if I have been "brainwashed" into rejecting the round earth hypothesis simply because it is not familiar. I can accept responsibility and I do.
>
There are also differing degrees and distinctions regarding persuasion techniques, such as education, advertising, propaganda, indoctrination and thought reform often called "brainwashing."
>
True. Yet, education is not fundamentally persuasion. Mainstream public education, derived from free Prussian military prep boarding academies of yesteryear, may be fundamentally persuasion, but all "education?"
I can study something and learn without being educated by anyone else. Consider quartz technology, for instance. Some scientists pursued learning by experience, not by seeking to be persuaded or to persuade.
Had they just read the predominant literature, they might have ignored such "superstitious" ideas as electrical currents and vibrating energy called matter.
So, let my concern be around the process of pre-meditated persuasion. All forms of it are distinct, and all share a common factor which I consider rather unappealing. On that note, I stand against all preaching, so let me say little or none as my hypocrisy is already breaking my "straight face" into a smile. Or let me say delicately.
Perhaps, moderator, you have never been in jail or in the military or in the detention camps of the USA for the indigenous and Japanese and in Germany for the 12 million, only 6 million of whom were Jewish, to my knowledge. Perhaps you have not witnessed the high priests in their black robes and wigs conducting the civil religious ceremonies of the martial courts. I do not know that many of those detained or captured would have been grateful, but my experience with MKP is deep with gratitude, no matter how much hate anyone may have for me or it.
I am grateful even for this exchange. I have seen stories in which even in the midst of the institutions of destruction, gratitude was shared. I have met victims of military torture. I met a lady who was a slave in her youth in Asia. The torture victim was an elderly Tibetan monk, Paulden Gyatso, and he was one of the most well-adjsuted people I have ever met.
So, I am not really interested in the specific issues people associate with MKP or this or that, indeed I am not sure what issues those might be except in general fear and anger obviously. I am not really all that interested in the specific issue of persuasion even, as much as I go on about it.
I ask: what is most relevant? What is most responsible? What do I value most?
I have my own experience with MKP. If someone has a question about MKP, they can research the thread or contact me or both. I would invite them to contact me in particular if they consider MKP spefically relevant and attractive to them. As I said previously, I recommend other "programs" even more.
MKP does absolutely involve persuasion, and yes education. I do not deny or defend that. The experiential education is far more consciously appreciated by me than the preaching, but that's me.
MKP is also clearly perceived as threatening to some people. I understand that it is not as innocent as a mere sweatlodge. It is an initiation ceremony, adapted for modern times, but drawn from ancient traditions. There are open weekly groups (while some have prerequisites, similar to college). If you think MKP is a bigger threat to your identity or prosperity than the mafia's organized crime operations of governing the masses with centralized banking credits, that shows your perceptual filter and what you depend on psychically (psychologically). If you experience pain that you associate with it, there is much pain and many proximate sources. There is also much healing. What do I choose to identify with?
I forecast financial markets, among other things. People in general are almost always surprised by changes in economic trends- from recessions to booms to depressions. Market forecasters in general are not.
My identity- my life- is my choice. I identify MKP as primarily a *deprogramming practice, not a programming practice. If you oppose it because in it, people systematically define words like integrity (or cult), so be it. I jest.
If you are really concerned about *influential "secret societies", is there a topic on the Fabian Society, Skull and Bones, and even the CFR? I suspect that in the cartoon here (if you read the caption and especially if you have seen the movie Wag the Dog), I do a bit to undermine brainwashing as well as evolve confused complaining into clarity: www. TruthSetFree.com
I suggest that [those DBA] MKP does not "generate" complaints. It invites them or at least accepts them, and yes attracts some too- and proposes specific ways to deal with complaints and challenge- not just within the circle of men, but in general. Does that mean that there are no overzealous or abusive participants in MKP? No.
I don't know what has been done at every MKP event, but I would probably be angry too. Indeed I feel angry now, and I already was before I went to an MKP event.
I'm told that there are organizations who intentionally seek to infiltrate perceived threats to hegemony, with their undercover operations of sabotage. Is undercover sabotage "righteous" as long as it is the CIA or LAPD? What if they infiltitrate the Black Panthers (for instance) and then cause controversy relating to cocaine, de-railing the "threat?" Is that just effective politics? Maybe it is! Is that what MKP does? Is that what has been done to MKP? I don't know. What I do know is that complaining can be exhausting! Let's have fun with it or have fun with something else....
Let's feel whatever we feel- any grief and pain- and any gratitude and healing. Let's recognize that another undercover sabotage in response to the prior undercover sabotage against us does not end undercover sabotage, but perpetuates undercover sabotage.
Who is responsible for my experience? Who can cultivate grace- honor it?
MKP is only most relevant if it helps me in that. If not, there is nothing to discuss about it, for me.
I know people who complain frequently about the IRS or the FDA. I understand their complaints. I presume that you can sense from my other comments that while I may not condemn various mainstream operations, neither do I condone them.
I am more interested in healing... and only understanding within that context. I don't need to understand everything in detail.
I saw something in this website about MKP's indemnity clauses- critical and suspicious. They are a lot like a high school sports indemnity clause. I have had more harm done to me by MDs than by MKP (none?)- and I didn't even get the disclosure of seeing an indemnity clause- like the warning label on cigarettes or prescription meds ("may cause side unexpected side effects such as impotence, blindness, paralysis and/or death"). I don't want to sue the MDs for that harm; I want responsibility and a recognition of what is harmful and what is helpful- first for myself!
If the MDs were misled or devious or just accidentally amputated the wrong leg (negligent systematically if not personally), I am still responsible for the choices I make now. How do I practice as an MD- or otherwise?
I would sacrifice the potential of your sympathy for the potential of our celebration that I witness now the immediate source of some serious challenges for me. Even more relevant, I witness the source of root solutions, resolutions, for me.
Yes, I've been operating according to dysfunctional programs that exhaust me in my complainings and otherwise. But how relevant is that now?
My choice is that my own responsibility is most relevant to me- as I partner with systems of which I compose a tiny part, but that changes everything. Upon the tree of life, there is a branch, and that branch is entirely the tree. Upon that branch, there is a stem, and that stem is entirely the branch, and entirely the tree. Welcome.
Life was starting to really make me mad when suddenly, I woke up. How are you?
>>>>
Moderator:
If you look back on this thread and/or read the site in more detail you will find there is specific information that you overlooked.
First note the disclaimer.
See [board.culteducation.com]
And also [www.culteducation.com]
Simply because a group has a subsection within the database does not mean it is a "cult."
Some of the groups listed have been called "cults" many have not.
Regarding the definition of a destructive cult.
See [www.culteducation.com]
The military is not a "cult."
See [www.culteducation.com]
There are also differing degrees and distinctions regarding persuasion techniques, such as education, advertising, propaganda, indoctrination and thought reform often called "brainwashing."
See [www.culteducation.com]
Mass marathon training seminars or weekends, such as MKP, seem to have the same sort of problems repeatedly and generate similar complaints.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Look back on this thread for analysis of the specfic issues regarding MKP.
When you jump in on a thread, perhaps you should research a bit more what has been said and further information.
ManKind Project?
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: September 30, 2006 01:10AM
jr144:
OK. So you are here to defend MKP.
There are serious complaints on this thread.
Not everyone shares your opinion about MKP.
Your definition of both "cult" and "deprogramming" is both selective and subjective.
The previous links offered an objective expert definition based upon the writings of people that have researched this subject such as Robert Jay Lifton and Margaret Singer.
And going off on tangents such as crystals and secret societies isn't meaningful on this thread.
OK. So you are here to defend MKP.
There are serious complaints on this thread.
Not everyone shares your opinion about MKP.
Your definition of both "cult" and "deprogramming" is both selective and subjective.
The previous links offered an objective expert definition based upon the writings of people that have researched this subject such as Robert Jay Lifton and Margaret Singer.
And going off on tangents such as crystals and secret societies isn't meaningful on this thread.
ManKind Project?
Posted by:
what2do
()
Date: October 01, 2006 02:04PM
jr144, you need to stay out of the sweat lodges. I think too much of this activity has fried your brain.
If I read your posts correctly, and that is hard to do with the ramblings, you have drifted from group to group. If that is the case, maybe you need to stop looking for a group to fulfull you, and tell you how you should feel. Just try standing on your own 2 feet, w/o any group, and see if you can make it on your own. I mean that seriously.
If I read your posts correctly, and that is hard to do with the ramblings, you have drifted from group to group. If that is the case, maybe you need to stop looking for a group to fulfull you, and tell you how you should feel. Just try standing on your own 2 feet, w/o any group, and see if you can make it on your own. I mean that seriously.
ManKind Project?
Posted by:
ginah
()
Date: October 04, 2006 12:17AM
Quote
what2do
jr144, you need to stay out of the sweat lodges. I think too much of this activity has fried your brain.
If I read your posts correctly, and that is hard to do with the ramblings, you have drifted from group to group. If that is the case, maybe you need to stop looking for a group to fulfull you, and tell you how you should feel. Just try standing on your own 2 feet, w/o any group, and see if you can make it on your own. I mean that seriously.
I agree with what2do, these post from jr144 really do not state anything much other than a bunch of rambling that is hard to follow. I read jr144s post several times trying to figure out what he was really trying to say. I gathered finally he was defending MKP in his own way.
ManKind Project?
Posted by:
truthsearch
()
Date: October 04, 2006 10:08AM
I have to agree- the rambling was too much for me- I couldn't read past the first few paragraphs but I'm sure I didn't miss much.
ManKind Project?
Posted by:
wolfdaddy195
()
Date: March 18, 2007 12:26PM
I decided to chime in as I read this thread. I have committed a lot of time reading postings when I could spend the time sleeping or doing my taxes, but I think I am meant to respond here. So, I joined. Here are my thoughts and feelings.
I am sad as I read many of these postings. I am clearly biased, as I have been a member of MKP for over 12 years. I am sad to read that men have experienced things that are clearly outside of the protocols we adhere to, wherein men have been harmed when they clearly are to be protected. Above all else, the ManKind Project is to be a safe place where men can come to look at who they are, what they want to be, and begin the journey in becoming the man they always wanted to be. I encourage anyone who has been harmed on a weekend and/or during an I-group to report those events to the international body. As with any program where intense experiential work is being done, I know that will occasionally happen. What is important is for the international governing body to be aware of these events so that they can take steps to prevent their reoccurance.
As for specific complaints posted on this thread, I can tell you that what was described in the sweat lodge was totally inappropriate and against protocol. I have not been hounded to bring men to MKP or to donate/give money. Men are to be allowed to have the NWTA weekend experience without further participation. They are allowed to do an initial I-group experience and drop out. They are allowed to be in an I-group for months/years and drop out when it doesn't serve them anymore. They are also allowed to return or participate in other ways in MKP. Any man may pass on any process during the NWTA weekend or during an I-group. Men are encouraged to develop stronger relationships with their wives, children, friends, peers, and others in their lives. Here's my story.
I was at a professional conference, as I am a psychotherapist, when I observed a group method of therapy that blew me away. I saw a man demonstrate a procedure and get a result that would have taken me over a year to get, while it took him about two minutes. I asked the man to train me in this procedure. As I learned from him and others, I learned about the ManKind Project. I joined soon after. My weekend began a journey that has turned my life around for the better. As a result of what I have received from MKP, I am a better father, husband, son, friend, therapist, peer and Jew. I was so moved by my experience, I began a local chapter of MKP in my community. Over 200 initiated men later, I am honored to say I helped found this MKP community. I have staffed 9 weekends, and I am moved by each one. I have connected with G-d and seen his healing powers, and I feel blessed to be that conduit at times. I love many of the men I have met in MKP, and I love the man I have become. For every man who wants something more from their life, I wish I could bless them with my experience. Unfortunately, every man doesn't share the experience I had or change the way I have.
It is my wish that this thread and others on this site do not scare men away from MKP that might have the benefits I experience. It is my wish that MKP fully look into any cases of abuse wherever/whenever they may occur. I do not regret for one second my decision to join MKP over 12 years ago, and I look forward to more years as I continue to live the mission I have chosen for myself.
I am sad as I read many of these postings. I am clearly biased, as I have been a member of MKP for over 12 years. I am sad to read that men have experienced things that are clearly outside of the protocols we adhere to, wherein men have been harmed when they clearly are to be protected. Above all else, the ManKind Project is to be a safe place where men can come to look at who they are, what they want to be, and begin the journey in becoming the man they always wanted to be. I encourage anyone who has been harmed on a weekend and/or during an I-group to report those events to the international body. As with any program where intense experiential work is being done, I know that will occasionally happen. What is important is for the international governing body to be aware of these events so that they can take steps to prevent their reoccurance.
As for specific complaints posted on this thread, I can tell you that what was described in the sweat lodge was totally inappropriate and against protocol. I have not been hounded to bring men to MKP or to donate/give money. Men are to be allowed to have the NWTA weekend experience without further participation. They are allowed to do an initial I-group experience and drop out. They are allowed to be in an I-group for months/years and drop out when it doesn't serve them anymore. They are also allowed to return or participate in other ways in MKP. Any man may pass on any process during the NWTA weekend or during an I-group. Men are encouraged to develop stronger relationships with their wives, children, friends, peers, and others in their lives. Here's my story.
I was at a professional conference, as I am a psychotherapist, when I observed a group method of therapy that blew me away. I saw a man demonstrate a procedure and get a result that would have taken me over a year to get, while it took him about two minutes. I asked the man to train me in this procedure. As I learned from him and others, I learned about the ManKind Project. I joined soon after. My weekend began a journey that has turned my life around for the better. As a result of what I have received from MKP, I am a better father, husband, son, friend, therapist, peer and Jew. I was so moved by my experience, I began a local chapter of MKP in my community. Over 200 initiated men later, I am honored to say I helped found this MKP community. I have staffed 9 weekends, and I am moved by each one. I have connected with G-d and seen his healing powers, and I feel blessed to be that conduit at times. I love many of the men I have met in MKP, and I love the man I have become. For every man who wants something more from their life, I wish I could bless them with my experience. Unfortunately, every man doesn't share the experience I had or change the way I have.
It is my wish that this thread and others on this site do not scare men away from MKP that might have the benefits I experience. It is my wish that MKP fully look into any cases of abuse wherever/whenever they may occur. I do not regret for one second my decision to join MKP over 12 years ago, and I look forward to more years as I continue to live the mission I have chosen for myself.
ManKind Project?
Posted by:
S_Byers666
()
Date: March 20, 2007 12:29AM
I'm sure that there were lots of posts about MKP from 2007. But they appear to be missing from this thread?
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.