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Ryk


If someone can help me make sense of these experiences, I'd really like to know (or was this just me?)

No, not just you! (Those hallucinations and so on) If you do a search on 'psychosis' and 'hallucination' on this forum, you'll find quite a few similar experiences.

I also remember people deep into Quest (and happily so) cheerfully discussing their 'spirit guides' in great detail - size, colour, shape, how they met them or how others in the group who were more 'psychic' saw them. Not to mention less cheery stories about malevolent spirits that had to be cleansed from their houses. At the time I thought they were "making up stories" but now I suspect they actually did believe the stories, as they were hallucinations.

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Ryk

If someone can help me make sense of these experiences, I'd really like to know (or was this just me?)

I remember during the Joyspring workshop, going towards the stage to get my life contract validated- I wrote things on a piece of paper that for sure was not my hand writing- I write very illegibly, but this was pure and beautiful.

About where to go for help making sense of these experiences - I don't know. This is what I have found helpful (and not helpful)

(I'm writing it as advice but considering I am pretty skrewed up still, take it all with a pinch of salt and a lot of skepticism).
(Also - I've said some of it before, but there are new things that I hadn't considered before)

To summarise first: the "transformation conditioning" poison works at several levels

- Disabling critical thinking (verbal)
- Disabling the 'ego' (various methods)
- NLP (verbal with some other cues)
- hypnotic (NLP mixed with altered state of mind)
- biological and chemical (permanently opening new neural pathways and temporarily altering brain chemisty, adrenal system balance etc)
- Ritualistic symbolism (I am not sure of the right word for this)
- Possibly more unkown levels

You could say, it is an holistic assault on the body, mind and psyche.
So all those levels need to be addressed. It is a big job. Frankly, I don't think the damage can ever be undone, only ... patched up.

So the list below - is about what can and can't help with the different levels.

1) Logically and critically expose the faulty logic that was part of the spoken part of the training. That was the superficial verbal layer of conditioning, mostly NLP. If you need help with that, do a search on the username 'anticult' - he (or she?) is devastatingly intelligent at knocking down the shallow yet slippery logic of the conditioning. I think he (or she) should write a book on this stuff. But even while you are doing that, question and intelligently challenge what is said.

2) You said you saw a psychologist who was not helpful. Same here. In fact, it made things worse. My opinon is that my mind and emotions were damaged when I handed authority over myself to Quest. The minute I try to hand myself over to any 'psychological' or 'spiritual' human authority, I am re-traumatizing myself. I am not saying I consciously decided to hand over authority over myself, but that is what happened, and what always happens when you put yourself into a relationship of Healer - Patient and you are the patient. Maybe okay for some people, for me it made things worse.

3) Psychology is "the talking cure". You talk about feelings and that is totally unrelated to what the conditioning does. The conditioning works verbally to disable the mind, and works non-verbally on the emotions. So talking about the emotions misses the mark in both directions. They can't correct the logic because they don't talk about logic or use logic - they talk feelings - but the emotional damage that was caused symbolically and non-verbally can't be undone with words.

4) Hypnosis - some claim this helps, to "unhypnotise" yourself. I think this is also re-traumatizing. It opens up unconscious parts of the mind that may not want to be reopened. And once again, under somebody else's authority. Even if it may work on some to a limited extent - it only addresses the verbal aspects, once again. If the conditioning was simply "My life contract is I am caring" then hypnosis may try to undo that unconscious verbal message with a new unconscious verbal message like "life contracts don't exist" or some other verbal message to counteract all the conditioning. That won't really work because the contract and other crap were stamped into you non-verbally with symbolic ritual plus hypnosis plus biochemical stress plus emotional overload plus disabling of logic and intellect.

5) Biological and chemical - if you need drugs, use them carefully as needed, temporarily. I got prescribed a bunch of stuff with awful side effects ... not sure I'm allowed to say this here, but old fashioned valium in low doses on bad days does the trick with hardly any side-effects. Most psychiatrists try to prescribe more modern, complicated, expensive and less safe drugs, under pressure from the pharmaceutical industry and because they are afraid of being found negligent by not prescribing stronger drugs... I'm not pointing the finger at them, they are a bit tied up in the legalities of their industry.

What I find useful about valium is that it does not numb my emotions or make my brain foggy. I am able to think and to feel, without getting overwhelmed (you know that overwhelmed feeling you mentioned when the memories come rushing back - very physical effects. I decided I need to remember and think about all that Quest stuff but without that automated emotional overload effect.


6) Then.... the ritualistic symbolism.... this is a new set of thoughts I have, which I'll put into a separate post once I figure out what I'm talking about, and if so, how to explain it. It is related to what you wrote about your life contract, for example.

After having gone through my experience with the Insight Training Centre, it still pains me that there are still innocent and reasonable people who still go there and there is nothing I can do. I would like to consider myself a reasonable person, so I did a basic internet search on the centre and did not find anything suspicious or untoward so I thought it was all above board. It was only through the experience that I went back on the internet and I had to dig and dig and dig until I stumbled upon this site - but it remains "hidden" to the average person - it's almost as if these people are mighty and powerful and terrorise us into a kind of silence. I can talk for myself and say I do feel powerless to a large extent to do anything about it, I mean I saw this Baruch Banai dude on a "self-empowerment" programme on SABC3 as one of the resident "experts" with other high profile people and I just thought, wow! Even the person that recommended the programme to me is someone I hold in high regard. I have read stories of employees whose bosses recommended this programme to them and the company paid for them to attend - it becomes complicated to speak out. I still wonder about the people I left there, especially the ones that seemed fragile and really open to the experience. At some point I thought to go to the media, but I'm such a small fry and I doubt if it would have any impact, but if its a lot of people, maybe it might get some attention. Is there nothing more that can be down to expose these people, because they really are no better than common criminals?

One of the dudes from the centre inboxed me this:


Re: Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
From: marcelle
To: mangwanya
Date: 07/06/2009 05:02PM

hi
i completed a both Turning Point and JoySpring almost the same month that Mangwanya walked out. i agree with the faciliator of the workshop fully that he will only give you your money back after you have completed and if you are at that point not satisfied. we had someone who walked out during our workshop but begged to come back and is totally satisfied with the results. a very close friend whom i also introduced to the workshop left on the third day as well of the second workshop but went back as well and as he calls it he is over the moon and can't comprehend the transformation he has undergone in this short space of time. i think that many of us had a problem with the methodoligy used but we went into the workshop open minded and wanted results hence we focused beyond our thoughts and feelings a method used which the writer himself made mention of.

my advise to the writer and all other viewers from a stranger who is just a friend you do not know, i recommend that you go back to the workshop and complete it if you do not after completion get the satisfaction many of us got then i guess you can take whatever action you wish. i am certain that there were reasons that drew you to enter the workshop don't fail yourself because of the method and also because of the fear you are faced with when dealing with feelings. take a step and do this for yourself

love and light
i believe that we are all beautiful souls punishing oursleves for issues we have no control over so we are human and all make mistakes give life a chance give you a chance.

WHAT A TRUCKLOAD OF GARBAGE. THIEVES!

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mangwanya
At some point I thought to go to the media, but I'm such a small fry and I doubt if it would have any impact, but if its a lot of people, maybe it might get some attention. Is there nothing more that can be down to expose these people, because they really are no better than common criminals?

Hi Mangwanya. I am also a small fry. I did try the media - I wrote letters to radio 702, Carte Blanche and Noseweek. I detailed the damage caused to me by Quest and also listed the other similar organisations in South Africa, including Insight Trainings and Landmark.

I got no response.

I agree with you that if there are more of us these people can be exposed. There are several problems with that but I am working on an idea... which I am going to discuss with some legal people late next week. If my idea is viable then I will most likely try to contact you to involve you, and as many other people as possible.

I'm glad you left when you did, and sorry that you had to go through the violations they subjected you to, for their own cheap profit.

Symbolic Rituals - ancient rites

Ryk, if you are still out there...

I think the reason the effects are so long lasting and "hair-raising" is that in Joyspring and Inquest in particular (second level courses) they use elements of ancient symbolic initiation rituals. They combine that with the more modern brainwashing techniques discussed generally in this forum and the cult books.

Every known culture, throughout remembered history, has had 'extreme' rituals of one kind or another, for initiation. Usually for young (adolescent) boys and girls, to initiate them into adulthood - and to imprint the rules and values of the tribe or culture onto the participants, so that they can fit into the community and be useful in it.

The most worrying aspect of this is that the rituals are symbolic - beneath rational thought - and very dramatic and emotive - in the past they had to be very powerful to maintain the culture and rules, particularly where there was no literacy.

I have not read anything of this aspect in any of the literature on cults, or on this forum. Some describe modern rituals of the cult, but dismiss them as not very important, or as shallow things specific to the cult.

Over time I have come to realise that it is the elements of ancient ritual that are the most destructive and powerful and long-lasting. Everything else is window-dressing or a hook to get people into more courses. These 'modern' aspects are also very strong, based on sophisticated and subtle brainwashing techniques developed in recent times in the military, in psychology studies and in in marketing studies. I am not dismissing them. They are bad enough.

The ancient ritual elements are far more frightening because they have stood the test of time, world-wide. They have survived because they are effective. That is thousands of years of 'experiment' and 'empirical evidence' as opposed to the last 100 years or so of fairly narrow insights (eg Freud and his small set of clients in Vienna) and some military-industrial experiments.

I think the problem with recovering from cult experiences is that the symbolic, unspoken, ritualistic, metaphorical, poetic, dramatic and emotional elements are not attended to.

Ryk - for an example - you remember what your life contract was (the words) and what they SAID about it... but how much attention have you paid to the ritual and unspoken elements of it?

If Joyspring is like Inquest, then on the first day you are given a "bad name tag"... then emotionally bludgeoned with that tag for a few days, by trainers as well as other group members. When you 'get' your life contract - they take your bad name tag off. Do you remember that? That is approximately followed by a death ritual / funeral march with emotive music, to go with your contract, and some kind of love-bombing or other great approval all round.

I think the act of putting the name tag on, then abusing throught that tag, then removing that tag in the midst of a dramatic emotional experience - the symbolic action of what is done with the name tag is as important (or even, more important) than what you consciously and verbally remember - the words of your contract.

That whole episode is a life-death-rebirth ritual, probably stolen from several ancient rituals and adapted to the purposes of the lgat (ie profit).

There are hundreds of small symbolic things going on all the time. As an assistant you see a lot more of the details of them, but the explanations for them are pretty shallow (clear the energy, blah blah)

Maybe what I am saying seems obvious, but I haven't read anything that helps me with this element. Not shallow modern newly-invented rituals, but the use of ancient proven rituals.

I have thought about the 'flashbacks' I have had and have been able to tie them all back to symbolic things that were DONE, rather than what was said.

For example: in the first course there is the 'nothing' game, at the end of which you are 'enlightened' (shocked and dissociated) and then you blow out the candle at the door. I don't usually use candles at home but I got some for my birthday, and started lighting a candle if I woke up in the night, just to sit for a while without too much light. Then, I'd blow out the candle, go back to bed, and have Quest nightmares.

Another odd thing is posters. A while back I put some posters up in my house, kids' stuff. It made me feel queasy. Later I took the posters down to paint the wall, and that made me feel a whole lot better, but also with sweating and shaking going on. I realised it was to do with putting up and taking down the life contract posters, at Quest.

I'm finding that tracking down of symbolic and metaphorical things quite helpful, so I thought I'd write it down here to maybe help other people, and also find out whether anyone else has paid attention to all these non-verbal elements.

If anyone does remember any specifics of these non-verbal ritualistic elements, please do write about them.

Sane Again:

To unravel and understand the LGAT or "mass marathon training" experience and what's wrong with it read this.

[www.culteducation.com]

The psychologist who wrote this paper attended and broke down what inherently wrong with the typical training presented by an LGAT.

Also see [www.culteducation.com]

A sociologist has broken down the components of coercive persuasion and how it works. LGATs typically utilize these techniques.

There are distinctions in different forms of persuasion, such as education, advertising, propaganda, indoctrination and thought reform aka coercive persuasion, often called "brainwashing."

A psychologist has broken this down in a chart.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Also see [www.culteducation.com]

This is a collection of articles regarding recovery from cults, which may be helpful in sorting out an LGAT experience.

Considering quest offers a full money-back guarantee i don't see how there can be any legal ramifications.

I for one have found my life turning around for the positive because of the work i've done. I also don't see any quest graduates as being brainwashed, lifeless, disspasionate fools, nor idiots.

But thats my personal experience. If you feel that you were hard done by and would like to tell everybody how bad quest is, go ahead.

Just remember, agreements and integrity when you talk about what happens inside. :)

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rrmoderator
Sane Again:

To unravel and understand the LGAT or "mass marathon training" experience and what's wrong with it read this.

[www.culteducation.com]

The psychologist who wrote this paper attended and broke down what inherently wrong with the typical training presented by an LGAT.

Also see [www.culteducation.com]

A sociologist has broken down the components of coercive persuasion and how it works. LGATs typically utilize these techniques.

There are distinctions in different forms of persuasion, such as education, advertising, propaganda, indoctrination and thought reform aka coercive persuasion, often called "brainwashing."

A psychologist has broken this down in a chart.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Also see [www.culteducation.com]

This is a collection of articles regarding recovery from cults, which may be helpful in sorting out an LGAT experience.

Thank you... I had forgotten these articles. The more time passes, the more sense they make.

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matthew.jonker
Considering quest offers a full money-back guarantee i don't see how there can be any legal ramifications.

The money-back doesn't cover even a fraction of my medical costs - and the medical costs are a fraction of the rest of the costs.

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matthew.jonker
I for one have found my life turning around for the positive because of the work i've done. I also don't see any quest graduates as being brainwashed, lifeless, disspasionate fools, nor idiots

So why do you all speak the same jargon every second word?

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matthew.jonker
But thats my personal experience. If you feel that you were hard done by and would like to tell everybody how bad quest is, go ahead.

It works for me, it doesn't work for me, if it works for you.... Blah blah. No objective reality. So next time you get robbed and your leg gets cut off in the process, you can find the robber and tell him it really doesn't work for you. He can say well it worked for him but if you feel you were hard done by... (translation - get over yourself! That's your shit! And why are you attracting robbers anyway? Why are you creating that reality?)

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matthew.jonker
Just remember, agreements and integrity when you talk about what happens inside. :)

Don't worry. I won't tell anyone anything personal about you or your fellow quest addicts. I won't tell anyone what your real name is, what you look like in your underwear, what the worst thing is you've ever done, what your secret fantasies are, what your contract is, what your bad name tag is, or any of the things you said or did 'inside' - trivial to tragic - you're quite safe.

That is plain old good manners.

(For a day-by-day breakdown overview of the training process see Philip Cushman's "Description of the Behavioral Structure of the Training." ) - search this site. Yes, it is the same as Quest.

And yes, I do tell everyone that you get to strip down to your underwear and ask everyone whether they think you are sexy or not. And that that is about the least invasive of the activities - So - yes, I tell everyone as much as I can to put them off going. It is a bit like "making a difference" and "giving something back to the world" - all the people I keep off Quest to make up for all those I got onto Quest, and who had their lives fucked up beyond all recognition.


The words 'agreement' and 'integrity' are pumpkin fritter words.

But since you like the words - aren't you interested in agreements and integrity 'outside'? Wow. The whole world can go to pot, as long as what happens on the inside is you know... pumpkin frittering.