also this stuff about "Transformation" is utter horseshit. Its just a temporary 'high' people get from the charged atmosphere.
It has ZERO effect on personality and long term habits.
Its like an alcoholic screaming NEVER AGAIN...whatever...talk to him next Friday night at closing time.

Its psychological Snake-Oil which preys on human gullibility.

Change in long-term habits and personality are not to be had in LGAT seminars...that is the scam...and is simply designed to extract money from a large group of people, which means the seminar leader (Werner Erhard" can make huge amounts of money from the volume of people paying the $.

Landmark is simply a con.
Werner Erhard thought it was all a big joke...that is why he launched the Hunger Project...as a type of uber-cynical ploy to exploit the humanity in other people so he could take money from them, and use it to promote est. Werner Erhard has contempt for people who try to do things like feed hungry people, so to press home that point, he launches the Hunger Project, to show just how easy it is to manipulate people.

This is why some Landmarkians say their goal is "World Peace". Its another cynical joke put in their by Werner Erhard, who does not care about "peace". I do believe Werner Erhard thinks that life is Meaningless and Empty...that is because he is a psychopath.
But the idea you can RUN FROM YOUR PAST by giving it a new meaning...well...you know where that comes from? From Werner Erhard who has such a horrible past, due to his own perverse behavior, who is always running from his past, and trying to pretend it doesn't exist.
He ran from his wife and kids and gave himself a new name.
He ran from est and created Landmark.
He ran from the USA so he could go live offshore and hide from his responsibilities. (what a pathetic [b:dc2bad0699]coward [/b:dc2bad0699]Werner Erhard is. He is such a coward he cannot face life for what it is, and has to run away from it.)

Here is a better idea.
Embrace the meaning and humanity in life, tell the truth, do good work..and then you don't have to live like a criminal like Werner Erhard and run overseas to escape reality.

Do some people not THINK at all about the horseshit Landmark-est is feeding them?

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The Anticult
Here is a better idea. Embrace the meaning and humanity in life, tell the truth, do good work..and then you don't have to live like a criminal like Werner Erhard and run overseas to escape reality.

BRAVO!!!

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The Anticult
. . . Werner Erhard . . . is always running from his past, and trying to pretend it doesn't exist.
He ran from his wife and kids and gave himself a new name.
He ran from est and created Landmark.
He ran from the USA so he could go live offshore and hide from his responsibilities. (what a pathetic [b:39f0ff1a16]coward [/b:39f0ff1a16]Werner Erhard is. He is such a coward he cannot face life for what it is, and has to run away from it.)

So much for integrity. HA!

And why is it that brainwashed zombies always try to defend the accusation that their Large Group Awareness Training organization is a cult - by just throwing out the accusation that all the world's major religions are also cults.

I wonder if Werner Erhard is just plain anti-religion, and if this shows up in his brainwashed "Forum Graduates" ???

Trooper says,

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"Is Landmark a cult? I still don't know. It is a bit culty. I imagine it can become more so the more deeply one gets involved. But, ultimately though, aren't the two major religions of the world -- Roman Catholicism and Islam -- cultish as well?"

This analogy is quite revevealing when you think about it.

Landmark is a for-profit privately owned company, but its devotees regard it more like a religion.

In this sense Trooper's remark is telling, because what he means is that Landmark should or could be compared to an organized religion and/or religious experience, rather than some sort of "technology" with licensing and copyright.

That is, Landmark is actually a subjective "experience" that requires faith from its true believers. And they receive something like a "religious epiphany" when they "get it."

This is why there is no credible peer-reviewed published research or study to objectively quantify what Landmark supposedly does, because what it does is a matter of belief based upon a subjective "experience" and feelings, something like being "born again."

But whereas Billy Graham or Jerry Falwell would readily admit what they teach is a belief based upon faith, Landmark insists it has some sort of "technology."

However, what Landmark devotees really get, is the "gospel according to Werner."

IMO--the only element Landmark lacks that precludes it from being called a "cult," is an ever-present totalitarian and charismatic leader. The other two elements of "thought reform" and exploitation or harm done are readily visible.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Werner Erhard once occupied that defining totalitarian position, but now seems content to operate behind-the-scenes and/or through his brother and sister.

IMO--if Erhard was fully visible and running the company in the same hi-profile way that he once ran est, the company could easily be seen as a classic "cult."

Only after the "sale" did this change.

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rrmoderator
That is, Landmark is actually a subjective "experience" that requires faith from its true believers.

Ah, so true. I still remember, 10 years ago now, during course #1 (Lifespring spinoff) when the content of the course made a sudden leap from being what seemed logic-based to faith-based. The course leader even told us that we had to just believe: he called the newly introduced concept a faith-based position, and in order to stay in the "club" and reach the rainbow's pot of gold we had to accept it unquestioningly. It bothered me that all of sudden I had to switch tracks from logic to faith in order to keep following the leader. I did it, but not wholeheartedly. In the second course, though, I became a true believer.

With what I've learned about lgat trickery I now can dissect the anatomy of how such CONversion happens.

skeptic

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skeptic
In the second course, though, I became a true believer.

So what made you lose your 'faith'?

Just curious, as it seems so many keep a strong belief in their respective LGAT, whether it be Landmark, Lifespring or others.

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The_Trooper
Some of the stories were really powerful... One guy did his in the form of a rap that rhymed pretty well. Another letter was so touching it brought a tear to my eye. There's a lot of people with a lot of baggage out there.

Yes, who doesn't have baggage. I don't need 'psycho-salespeople' to tell me I've got work to do. Especially when it's their turn to have an honest discussion and they look at me like I'm the crazy/disillusioned one. It does take two to tango, but I don't like being lead all the time...

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Following the tesimonials, the guests were ushered into separate rooms and, I'm sure, given the sales pitch. Our FL then, in fifteen minutes, summarized our three days. I think it was at this point that I "popped." Everything just made of sense to me. I could link a number of events in my childhood and andolesence (a number of which I had not thought of in years) and link them to the strong suits and rackets of my adulthood. I felt that some burden had been lifted off my shoulders. I felt more at peace with myself.

Yes, the ushering of guests into private rooms is purely about selling. My personal experience of this was shocking - I couldn't believe how gullible most of the attendees were to the utter claptrap of the volunteer coach. Why can't Landmarkians answer simple questions about the organisations origins and where the money goes? And, how can they profess a success rate of 99.99%? Shocking, really!

Yeah, I popped, too. I just couldn't accept their racket (con)!

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The forum has almost restored my faith in humanity. All the people in the class were very kind and caring.

Sometimes 'kind and caring' is just plain 'shaken and scared'. Almost? Almost restored your faith in humanity? It's starting to make sense...

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I can't deny that I saw a number of people who appeared genuinely transformed. So many participants made strides in repairing and restoring relationships with family members. No one was ever urged to divorce their spouse. The forum leader advised against dropping the jargon on non-Landmarkers or using it to win an argument with a fellow Landmarkian.

Repairing and restoring relationships? Yes, this does happen to a certain extent. But my experience is that the typical Landmarkian will pursue the path of least resistance. I mean, how gutless to call relatives at all hours of the day and night...the kind of thing someone would do when they're drunk or high or worse. I am still waiting for a particular call from a Landmarkian who 'really' needs to address some issues between us...and I don't care when the call/visit is.

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Madshus

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skeptic
In the second course, though, I became a true believer.

So what made you lose your 'faith'?

Just curious, as it seems so many keep a strong belief in their respective LGAT, whether it be Landmark, Lifespring or others.

I stayed involved for six years, and took six courses. I was only "high" after the first three, which I did within a six month period. After that, I coasted on the high. The fourth course was not good but I "reframed" it, as instructed, and lied to myself that the abuse would lead me to enlightenment (and it did: I became disturbed about the whole thing!).

When I signed up for the fifth course I made a promise to myself that I wasn't going to allow the abuse that happened in the fourth course (it didn't happen, probably because there were only five attendees). Maybe I was a little less enchanted by that time, because I saw some problems with some of the psuedo psychology. In the sixth course, I saw serious problems with the whole thing, and decided to be done with them. Between 5 & 6, my father had died and my sister had become heavily involved.

The problems I saw in courses 5 & 6, the cold-hearted and critical response to me in my grief over my father's death, and dealing with my true believing sister all led, thankfully, to the shattering of my trance.

I'm interested how people get out. My sister still believes in it and won't discuss it with me. I've tried, intermittently, for five years to tell her what I've learned. She won't discuss it. I recruited her, so I've told her that I'm going to attempt to undo the damage I unwittingly did. Not looking hopeful at this point. It was pretty easy to get her in, and about impossible to get her out.

skeptic

I think trooper is genuine. His experience of the forum mirrors mine fairly well. I went into it with the best intentions, I followed the rules, did the excercises, did the homework. I had a few 'revelations' but I'm still waiting for a 'pop' ( a popcorn analogy, where group 'transformation' happens sporadically over the weekend with individuals 'transforming' like bits of corn popping).

I suspect my experience with hypnotism (30+ years of self hypnosis and regular therapy) might have made me less susceptable to the group hypnotism. I certainly fell for the 'group hug' experience, it's very powerfull. I feel there is some good in that aspect, I still feel more empathic with strangers, and more accepting. Still, it's obvious why it is used so extensively. It gives participants a real sense of 'belonging' to the group, which for a lot of participants might be the only 'loving' family they have. I talked to a number of participants who would fit that category.

I absolutely hated the hard sell, it ruined what might have been a good therapy. Also I saw and talked to a few people who most definately should not have been there, they should have been receiving proper counselling. The 'one size fits all' approach that Landmark uses has it's dangers, although they would counter that with the argument that individual 'coaching' is only a phone call away. (Albeit by people untrained in proper psychotherapeutic methods).

As for phoning people, I phoned only a few close family members, as much to tell them I was having a nice day, and to be seen calling (the mobile carriers must love Landmark!). A part of being 'unreasonable' is being a nuisance caller to all your frinds and family. Not a good way to 'make friends and influence people', in my mind.

Overall, my assesment:
Shallow and superficial (but 'that' concept is explored in great depth in the xxx course, only $500!), meaningless jargon loaded, some interesting tools and insights, annoying hard sell, really nothing that can't be gotten from a few well chosen books.

But a great sense of 'belonging' to a loving 'family'