With regards to evidence and the law:

It seems difficult to find ground that we can all agree on. A court of law seems like a reasonable place to find impartiality.

As regards to evidence, I hear lots of people saying they think Landmark is garbage (which is a fair enough point of view if that's their experience), but I haven't seen any convincing evidence that hypnosis or mind control is practised.

There are people who claim to have evidence that The Holocaust never happened, or that the Earth is hollow - a court of law is a respected place, where any kind of judgement can (we hope) be seen to be logical and based on the facts.

As for me being a Landmark salesman, well, if you go to a good restaurant, enjoy it and recommend it to a friend are you a salesman? I suppose you are. But not because there's anything in it for you - because you think your friend might enjoy it.

Do I think Landmark is a benefit?
Sure.

Do I think it's for everyone?
No.

Do I deny that people have had bad experiences?
No.

It's the whole mind control, hypnosis, con-artist angle that's the issue for me.

I've never said that I have the perfect life or I'm better than anyone else. There are areas of my life that are really great and work well. There are areas of my life that are okay. There are areas of my life that don't work at all - such as my relationship with my eldest sister.

But I'm working on it, and I have a choice about whether I live in a story that this is the way it is and it can't be any other way, or in the possibility that I can transform things.

My advice to anyone who thinks Landmark is evil - bring it down. Change things. Don't run a racket on it - get out there and make a difference. It would be easy to say Landmark has lawyers and money and yadda yadda yadda.

Ghandi was a guy in a loin cloth and he brought down the British empire. He was a guy who was commited to something. He made it happen in the face of the sternest opposition.

If Landmark is as bad a you say, get out there and prove it. Get out of this little forum where everyone agrees with you and make what you want happen.

This is not about me changing anyone's mind. It's just about balance. I really get that there are people who don't want to consider another point of view. That's not a problem for me.

But consider this:

I am not here to gum up the forum - I'll stop posting if that's what you guys want
I am not here to get anyone
I am just an ordinary person with no hidden agenda
I have not lied to about anything I've said
I am not part of any conspiracy
No one sent me here

Really - seriously - if there's anyway I can prove this, if there's anything I can do, let me know.

If there's nothing I can do - if you're not prepared to let me prove it or accept that my comment, however disliked, is genuine - what hope is there?

You might just choose to accept that, whatever you think of me, I am being genuine and have free will. That, in itself, would be a breakthrough.

If you choose not to do that, and refuse to accept any offer of proof (you can request any burden or proof you like), well, that to me would speak volumes.

I don't know really, what else I could do to be more accomodating. Any suggestions?

Having just had a loved one sucked into an LGAT (not the forum, but gosh they are all so similar) and having both experienced and seen first hand the trauma caused in a persons life, I feel compelled to attempt to give you some things to consider.

You say you see no evidence that mind control or hynosis is practiced. Are you open to the posibility that you don't really understand what hypnosis is? Have you done research yourself on hypnotic induction, trance states, and the possibilities and limitations of hypnosis? It's a well researched field. It won't be hard to find, if you are open to it. If you are looking to only validate your own point of view, however, you won't accept that.

The Landmark/restaurant comparison is used over and over again in every LGAT. There is, however, a bit of a difference. If you go to a really good restaurant, the chef doesn't take you to a room off the kitchen, make you sit in a chair rather close to all the other diners and spend hours on end influencing you that to enroll others into the posibility of being a good restaurant consumer is to make your life really work for you. Also, if you tell a friend about your new favorite restaurant, and they choose not to try it, you don't have this feeling that they are closed off people who just don't get it.

As far as doing what we can to change an unfortunate situation; believe me we are. What is provided right here in this forum and the rest of this site has helped countless people make a better informed decision about particpating in an LGAT. I only wish I'd had the good sense to do this research before an LGAT almost destroyed my relationship. The information here is what finally, three months after his Harmony Quest experience, caused my boyfriend to "snap" back and realized that he'd been had. Now we are reaching out to others to help them.

There is no doubt that Landmark is very good at using their law team to suppress information that affects their consumer base. There is plenty of evidence of that as well, but only if you choose to see it. Most of us are ordinary people without the resources to take that on. Landmark knows it.

You say you don't deny that people have had bad experiences, but of course that doesn't matter bacause yours was good. But how many people have to destroy their relationships, their careers, commit suicide, have psycotic breaks before you could admit that maybe Landmark might be responsible? If you were the spouse or sibling or child of someone who had a "bad" experience" such as those examples would you want anyone to do the forum, ever?

You are perfectly entitled to believe as you wish and state your beliefs. But so am I. My entire life turned on it's end because of an LGAT. I've seen other people turn into walking zombies, leave their spouses, walk away from their business and cut off their family because they are so sucked in. I've seen people leave all other responsibilities behind to enroll others in the possiblity of transformation. That is destructive, no matter how you try to spin it. It hurts people, a wide circle of people who love and care about the person as well as the person themselves. How would you feel if you realized you influenced someone down that road?

a person on another listserve recently complained that Rick would NOT include in the RR.com database/archives material she'd sent on a group she was worried about.

'Rick wants all info already documented and published and he wants me to get him the web links for all published facts (that which comes aside from me). ' (paraphrase)

Nothing goes into the RR.com database archives concerning a group unless that material meets stringent standards for reliability and accuracy--its been published elsewhere in the media, scholarly journals, legal documents etc.

To re-iterate:

This is a balanced website. The official websites of all controversial groups are included along with the warnings and media coverage.

It is good manners to read a site's material in depth before arguing vociferously on RR.com's forum. Demanding that people justify their positions (especially when most of them have been hurt by the group being discussed) without your taking the trouble to read the archived material yourself is being needlessly disruptive.

If you 'want evidence', that a group has hurt people, you can read a ton of it yourself on the forums and in the archives.

Demanding that members rebut your questions point by point is rude.

It is your job to convince yourself.

Time spent nagging people who have all had bad experiences with a group or LGAT is time stolen from your wife and family. Do they know how much time you're spending here?

Law School Proverb on how to Argue Cases

'If the evidence is in your favor, argue the facts.

If the evidence is against you, argue from the law.

If both the law and evidence are against you, yell, scream, pound the table and attack the integrity of your opponents.'

I can't comment on anything other than Landmark as I've no experience of other systems. Any system that forces people do things against their will isn't a good thing.

For those who are interested

[www.scooponlandmarkforum.com]

This pro-Landmark site contains testimony from psychiatrists, clinical and education psychologists, and all kinds of clergy. They are of the opinion that Landmark isn’t a cult – that it’s a useful education tool. You also have testimony from law enforcement officials, but perhaps they’re in on the conspiracy too.

The personal testimony from people explaining what they got out of their participation is also pretty powerful.

Those of a sensitive disposition are advised to avert their gaze, lest Landmark creeps through their computer to get them with its evil mind control rays.

I've seen that site before. There is plenty of info out there praising landmark.

I think the key might be for a person to read both sides (as I have- you wouldn't believe how much information I've read and considered in the past several months) and come to a conclusion on their own.

In reading the first two letters from professionals in the mental health field, both of them describe their definition of "cult" and neither definition is correct or complete in my opinion. They are much too easily dismissive of the issues that raise alarm and because they are directly associated with Landmark, cannot possibly provide a non-biased viewpoint. But then perhaps you aren't looking for that. There are statements made by those "professionals" that I believe to completely false.

They offer no explanation for the many people who have sought therapy after a forum. For the many problems that people have trying to take the "technology" and apply it in the real world. They offer no help to someone who has watched a loved one change in an unhealthy way, except to tell them to do the Forum themselves so they can "understand".

Find someone who's lost a husband, wife, or daughter to Landmark and try to convince them it's not a cult. Explain to them why their loved one has cut them off simply because they won't do the Forum for them. Tell them why their loved one has spent money they don't have for courses that don't seem to give them any sort of benefit, and in the meantime have let the important things in their lives slide because Landmark Education takes up all their time. Look these people in the eye and tell them their loved one is really happy and well adjusted and living a life of possiblity when they are about to lose their house and are getting divorced.

Want to look at another point of view? Read this site and tell me what about it isn't correct:

[www.geocities.com]

One can't say Landmark don't know their customers. There seem to be so many like you, wolfy, who will swallow the "curiculum" whole, abandon critical thought, ignore evidence, cover their eyes and ears, and repeat the same claptrap ad nauseum in the hopes that some unsuspecting fool will believe it and attend the introductory meeting and so that they can protect their own egos from the fact that they have involved themselves with a cheesy, low-class, exploitative biz-cult.

You pretend to be here in the interest of "dialog" but you're really here to pose and posture your new-found Landmark "thought-contagion" as pratice, I suppose, before they send you out into the real world to recruit.

(There are several psychologists, psychiatrists, or other professionals who are classified as Landmark apologists. They are either on the payroll or have been hoodwinked themselves. There is a ton of information on these people, Lowell Streiker, for one, if you are really curious.)



Ellen

This Wolfy is a pure Landmark propagandist.
He is a WOLF in sheeps clothing, don't be tricked by his little games out of the Landmark book.
Perhaps he feels this is a challenge, and practice for him, to come a try to post a bunch of pro-Landmark propaganda, on an anti-cult forum.

You can see him start to try and twist reality, and distort what people have said.

Its 100% manipulation, what he is doing.
And its useless on this forum, but unfortunately, those sorts of evil tactics work on vulnerable people.
His sole reason to be here is to try and put a positive spin on Landmark.

Its a sad world we live in, where WOLVES and predators scour the internet and the real world, looking for suckers and sheep to exploit.
My only hope comes from the fact there is a certain poetic justice in life, and many times the Wolves in real life, will meet guys like me, who will teach them a lesson they will never forget.

Now he has offered a link to a TOTAL 100% LANDMARK PROPAGANDA site.

Every word that Wolfy says is 100% Landmark Propaganda.
Its so transparent.

At least those who read this thread, can look at the Landmarkians posts, and observe the twisted manipulative tactics. They look "innocent" enough on the surface, but Wolfy is a self-described WOLF looking for a Little Red Riding Hood to trick.

Perhaps that is the one benefit.
For people to clearly see the blatant lies, and twisting of reality that they try to do.

What consoles me is the fact that the Landmark Beast eats its own babies.

These Wolfs go on the prowl, but what they do not see is that THEY are the sheep, and the Landmark Beast will break them, financially and personally, sooner or later.
They will get their Just Desserts, from the very Landmark Group they are doing the dirty work for.

Landmark is a evil VIRUS.

Coz

I just finished the Landmark Forum yesterday (actually, there is still one more evening on Tuesday). I have to say, it was interesting...

I still don't know what to make of this whole thing. I went because my boss required it. I had gone to enough of these things in the Seventies when they were much more common. They were all disappointments. What I noticed back in the Seventies was that you get a great buzz during the weekend. You have wonderful insights, powerful emotions, and (often) a sense of joy. Great.

Within a week or two, you're back to "normal", whatever that means. That's assuming you aren't somehow damaged by the experience. Personally, I don't believe I've been damaged, except that my poor buttocks are still sore from the 40+ hours of sitting in uncomfortable chairs. I can see how some of this stuff could adversely affect someone who is in therapy or who has a history of certain emotional problems like depression.

At the moment I do feel I have had some "breakthroughs". However, I felt exactly the same way when I went to seminars in the Seventies. Time will tell, but I'm not counting on being an "extraordinary person" any time soon - at least, not in the way Landmark means extraordinary.

I was wondering about how Landmark's statement about life being "meaningless and empty" jibed with spiritual people. There was a Roman Catholic priest at this seminar, and I asked him about it. He seemed a bit reticent, but he felt that Landmark more or less avoided the subject. He was OK with their statement about life, since they say that we give meaning to life (that is, the meaning of life isn't in life, but within us). So OK, I guess I can go along with that.

Still, I noticed a couple of things. First, the facilitator required us to make promises without knowing what was going to be asked of us. I found this a tough one. Then he required us to do everything he said in the forum, which included considerable calling of people we know. Finally, we are supposed to bring as many people as possible to the Tuesday seminar, and to tell them to bring their checkbooks or credit cards.

This troubles me. It looks to me like subtle manipulation by changing the meanings of words and by using shame or peer pressure to accomplish an outcome. If you don't bring people to the Tuesday meeting, you've broken your "promise", a promise that was made without knowing what it was. That leaves you open to the charge of lacking "integrity".

During the lectures, the facilitator resorted to several logical fallacies, the main one being to ask "where" some things were. He was referring to intangible things like love or dislike. The fallacy is called "reification".

My gut tells me that this forum may possible give people some ideas, some new ways of living that they might be able to use if they haven't previously been to a similar seminar, and if they haven't been through therapy. Those who haven't yet done much self-examination might learn some things from this forum.

The buzz you get is fine - it's a nice feeling that you can maybe make some changes in your life, perhaps get past blocks or problems that have troubled you for years.

However, as I said, such a nice buzz is often just a temporary one, without resulting in lasting benefit or change.

I was interested in the forum's preoccupation with "enrolling" others in your new life - that is, telling them about some decision you've made and seeking to get them excited about it, moved, whatever. The magic won't work if you don't get others excited about it.

OK, maybe not. It still sounds to me like they're just trying to get you to involve your friends in order to recruit them into the forum. After 3 days of 14 hours each, you get one day off, and then come for a final evening. At that time you bring everyone you possibly can. Naturally your friends see you right after you've gotten a nice buzz, while you're excited and hopeful. They see the obvious difference, and many of them would want to have the same sort of thing you've just received. They come to the Tuesday seminar and - let me guess - are subjected to a sales pitch.

In the meantime, this forum is only the beginning. There are further seminars, costing about double what you just paid. But if you sign up within about a week, you get $200 off. Hmm... why the hurry?

The bottom line is that I'm dubious of these claims. Maybe I'll believe it once I see I'm leading an "extraordinary" life. However, from right here it looks like a well-designed was of getting people to part with their money, and offering something kind of helpful, maybe...

i have a question for u.
do u remember the empowerment process ?

its the part where they tell u there
are so many people in the room and u are terrified of them and then they
build it up and then they change it
so that u are doing the terrifying
and then the people laugh.

what did u think about this part of the forum ?

I'm relatively new here, but I've been lurking on some of these threads. I went to the site that Wolfy posted - scooponlandmark - and it seems completley propagandistic to me. I'm actually questioning whether or not it is run by landmark itself. I did a whois search and the only name on the account is the web designers not the site owners.

It seems a little fishy to me that this is an "independent" site...and yet it doesn't have anyone claiming to be running it. Even the "contact us" address goes back to the web designer.

K