What happened to this subject?

Has anyone taken this any further?

Joe1:

As someone loyally devoted to a mass marathon training program (Mankind Project) do you really think that these groups are actually willing to participate in any form of meaningful regulation?

Essentially, they are practicing group therapy without licensing or meaningful education/training as mental health professionals.

Anyone considering mass marthon training programs should keep this in mind.

If groups like Mankind Project or Landmark Education want to show good faith regarding their programs, the first meaningful step might be for them to cease requiring anyone to sign releases reducing their liability in any way, shape or form.

Licensed counselors, psychologists and psychiatrists don't typically require such paperwork and can be held accountable for their practices.

Likewise continuing education at colleges and universities don't require such paperwork.

I think it would be great if there was regulation but in reality I can't ever see groups like Landmark ever agreeing to this. Really for regulation to ever work, goverments would have to do the regulating and make the applicable laws and consequences of companies breaking them.

I can't see self regulation working because they wouldn't have to join similar to say for example builders in my country, they can be a master builder and fulfil on the regulations which provides legal back up for the client or they are just a builder and don't have fulfill on any of the master builder regulations. Many people still use regular builders and then have to spend a lot more money trying to get the builder to fix up what they have messed up.

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I think it would be great if there was regulation but in reality I can't ever see groups like Landmark ever agreeing to this. Really for regulation to ever work, goverments would have to do the regulating and make the applicable laws and consequences of companies breaking them.

Agree with you totally but I can't imagine landmark ever subjecting itself to the possibility of accountability either. It will take the intervention of Governments, the APA, and accrediting educational institutions to impose regulations and restrictions at national and municipal levels to put a stop to landmark's 'free for all' psychotherapy fest.

Estie posted some great ideas for regulations.

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ON2 LF

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I think it would be great if there was regulation but in reality I can't ever see groups like Landmark ever agreeing to this. Really for regulation to ever work, goverments would have to do the regulating and make the applicable laws and consequences of companies breaking them.

Agree with you totally but I can't imagine landmark ever subjecting itself to the possibility of accountability either. It will take the intervention of Governments, the APA, and accrediting educational institutions to impose regulations and restrictions at national and municipal levels to put a stop to landmark's 'free for all' psychotherapy fest.

Estie posted some great ideas for regulations.

And the way to affect change through the government is to communicate with your representatives. Good places to start of course is the United States Federal Dept Labor, States Dept Labor, and States Attorneys General. Course, there's also your local congressmen and senators...

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ajinajan

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ON2 LF

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I think it would be great if there was regulation but in reality I can't ever see groups like Landmark ever agreeing to this. Really for regulation to ever work, goverments would have to do the regulating and make the applicable laws and consequences of companies breaking them.

Agree with you totally but I can't imagine landmark ever subjecting itself to the possibility of accountability either. It will take the intervention of Governments, the APA, and accrediting educational institutions to impose regulations and restrictions at national and municipal levels to put a stop to landmark's 'free for all' psychotherapy fest.

Estie posted some great ideas for regulations.

And the way to affect change through the government is to communicate with your representatives. Good places to start of course is the United States Federal Dept Labor, States Dept Labor, and States Attorneys General. Course, there's also your local congressmen and senators...

;)

Senators ARE congressmen. The House of Reps and Senate....

Common mistake.

Education is a much better way to go IMO. Legislation for any portion of this nonsense will create a sense that SOME of it is legit. This is not desirable in any sense.

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Education is a much better way to go IMO. Legislation for any portion of this nonsense will create a sense that SOME of it is legit. This is not desirable in any sense.

excellent point! Which means the best approach in dealing with the unlicensed practice of psychotherapy, unqualified educational training and sketchy labor conduct, is to make it illegal, period.
Criminal charges would then be the appropriate course of action when these crimes are being committed. Education and public awareness is prevention, but legal restrictions and accountability need to be applied to accentuate the need and purpose for education and awareness of the dangers involved with LGATS.

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MarkusWelch

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ajinajan

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ON2 LF

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I think it would be great if there was regulation but in reality I can't ever see groups like Landmark ever agreeing to this. Really for regulation to ever work, goverments would have to do the regulating and make the applicable laws and consequences of companies breaking them.

Agree with you totally but I can't imagine landmark ever subjecting itself to the possibility of accountability either. It will take the intervention of Governments, the APA, and accrediting educational institutions to impose regulations and restrictions at national and municipal levels to put a stop to landmark's 'free for all' psychotherapy fest.

Estie posted some great ideas for regulations.

And the way to affect change through the government is to communicate with your representatives. Good places to start of course is the United States Federal Dept Labor, States Dept Labor, and States Attorneys General. Course, there's also your local congressmen and senators...

;)

Senators ARE congressmen. The House of Reps and Senate....

Common mistake.

Education is a much better way to go IMO. Legislation for any portion of this nonsense will create a sense that SOME of it is legit. This is not desirable in any sense.

Hehehe, I know Senators are also congressmen, but "congressmen" generally refers more to reps than senate. But at any rate, complaining and bringing the issue of dangerous LGATs to government reps like Dept Labor, State Attorneys General, and representatives isn't just to spur potential legislation - but more importantly for federal and state agencies to take a look at the industry and clamp down even without new legislation. For example the Dept Labor can for sure do a lot - because it is probably a common theme for LGATs to use unpaid laborers, which is illegal in for-profit companies. And State Attorneys General can take a look at history of deaths, psychotic episodes, violent acts, etc... the other gov't reps are good for resources and support, and perhaps to bring in some press as well is always a good thing...

spent several hours watching the "Century of the Self" videos today. Now I'm wondering if it isn't just absolutley futile and foolish to seek out government agencies to hold landmark to account for its practices, techniques, and profiteering.
Are landmark and public governing bodies, too similar in methodology and intent, for one to try to hold the other accountable? I find this possiblity extremely disturbing.

Hi there, I've just put a post (awaiting approval) on the LGAT forum and saw this topic and I'd like to add a UK view.

It's interesting that whilst in the US anyone can practice (AFAIK) as a hypnotist but therapists are licenced wheras we have the opposite, namely hypnotitic shows have to be pre-licenced by a local council, but a therapist, life coach etc can set up in the same town w/o licencing requirements. Our hypnotist act came about after legal actions following shows back in the 50's and most people on here are probably aware of the similarity between said shows and how LGAT's work.

Perhaps its because we don't have the amount of tv and radio channels you have in the US that precludes the amount of LGAT groups here (perhaps we're to small to accomodate a LG?) but we do still get charlatans.

One of the areas we seem to suffer from in the UK is clairvoyants and fortune tellers. As you probably know there have been tests to give a group of people the same 'cold readings' and ALL felt it fitted them perfectly! Our Victorians believed strongly in this and many continue in the same vein.

[i:6d64aa021e]SIDEBAR: Could believing in astrology be considered LGAT at a distant? The assumption is you fit one of 12 groups and your life is mapped out? Sounds like it doesn't it?[/i:6d64aa021e]

When shown that the reading was 'false', cognative dissonance usually kicks in and in a few days they are back to believing that the next clairvoyant is 'true'.

Also, some hypnotists avoid the licencing by stating in their adverts they are just performing tests, examples or suchlike, which is exempt from regulation!

So I guess I'm saying that at various stages in our lives we can all be taken in by the belief that 'this group/idea/guru' is different and then once we start to ante up cash reinforce the belief since we don't want to admit - to ourselves at least - that we're wrong (again)

Sad but true, and if your governmental system works like ours there are only so many hours that the body sits so unless your idea for legislation can get support (read: lobby group cash) it won't become a law or statute.

To that end it's only through awareness portholes like this that good ideas can be filtered out from poor ones since often what ends up as LGAT was a good idea at first.

As an aside I've seen reference to research which showed that when Hitlers initial policies have been read out (post war) to a group in a blind test, most listeners state that overall they are a good idea ... and look where that got us! So possibly ANY model, however well-meaning (or not in this case) may deconstruct into a LGAT in the end?

I really don't think legislation will work since by defining what IS a LGAT you define what isn't and it won't take anyone very long to develop a non-LGAT that walks, talks and breaths just like a LGAT, albeit in new clothes and your congress won't like being asked to re-legislate again.

As a further aside, England has quite a strong history in enabling people to start up a business without much onerous legislation and so we have, for example Management Consultancy ( my field ) and Estate Agency both unregulated whatever the self-appointed bodies might let others believe.

Also, I don't think your congress etc will concern themselves with legislating since they'd probably say that if the participants felt they had been mistreated they could sue those in the LGAT - not an easy course mind, but it does free up Congress debate time however.

Be pleased to hear back.

regards

Brian