LOL....


I might be tempted, if I weren't too emotionally involved, to look upon the situation as an opportunity to sew some deprogramming seeds by letting her know there is criticism and what they call "controversy" going back thirty years. I might couch it in the "what you don't know you don't know" thingy. I might use Landmark on her, asking her to "consider this" and "try on" that. She's probably already been prepped how to respond, but you might be able to sneak in the back door. Remember, you are dealing with professional "persuaders." Their "game" is rigged and most of them know it, at some level. Women in Landmark are taught to use sex and affection to recruit, just like any salesman really. (Or should I say the ~possibility~ of sex.)



Ellen

Quote
elena
I might be tempted, if I weren't too emotionally involved, to look upon the situation as an opportunity to sew some deprogramming seeds by letting her know there is criticism and what they call "controversy" going back thirty years. I might couch it in the "what you don't know you don't know" thingy.

I did this with my Lekkie friend. Used the "what you don't know you don't know about Landmark" approach. She deflected it expertly. She had completed many Landmark courses, including ILP, so I'm sure she was well trained. It was kind of fun though!

Quote
elena
Women in Landmark are taught to use sex and affection to recruit, just like any salesman really. (Or should I say the ~possibility~ of sex.)



Ellen

My, how far these enlightened folks have advanced! Using women as sex toys. I guess they think they don't have much more to offer. LOL!

Werner Erhard used to refer to women as "clocks with tits"...

Harumph... how base of that awful man.

ESTmark WernerBlather training involves a rather revolting amount of [i:5d9926f15e] highly manipulative [/i:5d9926f15e] emotional validation, also referred to as "stroking", when you behave the way they want you to behave, and they have no qualms about shutting you out emotionally or using de-validation when you don't give them exacvtly what they desire.

This is the emotional manipulation that unethical salespeople use on one game level, in Transactional Analysis they'd speak of most sexualized/emotionalized sales tactics as first degree games, where ESTmark has raised the bar to what TA would probably call a second degree game...

Ergo... the more deeply one becomes enmeshed in the ummmm.... [i:5d9926f15e] family dynamics [/i:5d9926f15e] of ESTmark the more one becomes [i:5d9926f15e] socialized [/i:5d9926f15e] into sort of a psychosexual exhibitionism (a warped seduction dynamic) when one is in Flirty Fishing mode, then turn on a dime and enter the Whatever Were You Thinking ? game (massive denial of the whole game just played)....

Then, cogent fellow, if you're self possesed enough to call them out on the delightful little striptease they've just performed for you, they will reach for their old trusty shootin' iron... Projection ! They tell you that you are only experiencing YOUR own rackets ( viz. Scientology "You're only talking about yourself! "... you enturbulated Xenu groveller , You !)

OK.... follow the errrrr.... transaction here....

1. Seduce... if that won't work, or it isn't going as planned, then...

2. Deny ... "you misread my opening for possibility"

3. Accuse ... last ditch attempt to score... "you really need help, you know" ...

Attractive little buggers, aren't they ?

All of this just shows that this isn't about enlightenment or elevating yourself or reaching a new level of consciousness. It's about control and power. The results are humanly depreciating.

-lightwolf

Sure 'nuff.

If you asked an ESTmarkian [i:f029896563] what [/i:f029896563] motivated their continued involvment with the organization, we're talking about the serious players, the company boys and girls here, they give you the palatable answer....

Their high ideals, their love of this great project, completions, and so on... which well may be [i:f029896563] partially [/i:f029896563] true...

What they won't tell you, and what I doubt very much the could bring themselves to say openly even among each other with none of "the children" overhearing, is that they are profoundly motivate by a love of dominance... I think it is safe to say that these are not so much the pure dominant types who rise by virtue of extrordinary ability to a fame that is accorded by wide social consensus, but something a little dimmer, a little cheesier, we might call them [i:f029896563] frustrated dominant [/i:f029896563] personalities who have deep seated fantasies of dominance and control BUT lack the true juice, potency, [i:f029896563] virtu [/i:f029896563], or whatever you want to call it, to pull off their domination rackets [i:f029896563] to the degree that their inner needs drive them [/i:f029896563] in normal, consensus reality circumstances....

Sooooo.... whaddya do ? You create your own reality where you CAN strut around and play the Big Swinging Dick, where you are safe, where the environment is tightly controlled, where every response has been scripted far in advance... and far, far in the back of their minds IS that overcompensation for a feeling of inferiority that drives them on, that gives them that harsh, defensive, self protective edge... because it is a profoundly neurotic need [i:f029896563] not to be weak [/i:f029896563] that whips them on, and there is nothing they loathe so much as the weakness and dependency within themselves.. or the comtempt they feel for the vulnerability of others, which only reminds them all the more of their own vulnerabilities...

which, naturally, thay have made a career of denying...

Quote
automaticftp
"the ultimatum:" She cannot be with someone who has not completed a Landmark course.

Another relationship put into peril thanks to Landmark. How nice. I ask you all, does this Landmark crap sound like an "Education" as they claim to be, or does this situation resemble more of a cult-like or religious-like behavior? What we see here is someone who has been programmed to think Landmark is more important than a human relationship.

If you pose my question to a Landmarkian he/she will tell you your friend has to take responsibility for her "choices". That's true to a certain extent but it's the raging zeal Landmark deliberately instils into their followers that results in this type of behavior. And of course this raging zeal turns Landmarkians into recruiters which means big profits for Landmark. Not unlike cults and religious sects when taken to the extreme. Oh, they know what they're doing at Landmark.

Landmark is despicable from beginning to end. An "education"? Now that is to laugh. ha ha. The shame of it is is that big profits for Landmark at the expense of destroyed relationships is not a laughing matter.

Quote
nutrino
Sure 'nuff.

If you asked an ESTmarkian [i:e087def7e6] what [/i:e087def7e6] motivated their continued involvment with the organization, we're talking about the serious players, the company boys and girls here, they give you the palatable answer....

Their high ideals, their love of this great project, completions, and so on... which well may be [i:e087def7e6] partially [/i:e087def7e6] true...

What they won't tell you, and what I doubt very much the could bring themselves to say openly even among each other with none of "the children" overhearing, is that they are profoundly motivate by a love of dominance... I think it is safe to say that these are not so much the pure dominant types who rise by virtue of extrordinary ability to a fame that is accorded by wide social consensus, but something a little dimmer, a little cheesier, we might call them [i:e087def7e6] frustrated dominant [/i:e087def7e6] personalities who have deep seated fantasies of dominance and control BUT lack the true juice, potency, [i:e087def7e6] virtu [/i:e087def7e6], or whatever you want to call it, to pull off their domination rackets [i:e087def7e6] to the degree that their inner needs drive them [/i:e087def7e6] in normal, consensus reality circumstances....

Sooooo.... whaddya do ? You create your own reality where you CAN strut around and play the Big Swinging Dick, where you are safe, where the environment is tightly controlled, where every response has been scripted far in advance... and far, far in the back of their minds IS that overcompensation for a feeling of inferiority that drives them on, that gives them that harsh, defensive, self protective edge... because it is a profoundly neurotic need [i:e087def7e6] not to be weak [/i:e087def7e6] that whips them on, and there is nothing they loathe so much as the weakness and dependency within themselves.. or the comtempt they feel for the vulnerability of others, which only reminds them all the more of their own vulnerabilities...

which, naturally, thay have made a career of denying...

Another bull's eye, Nutrino.

Just so much "catnip for the conceited," as some wag pointed out a long time ago.

(Also, a school for bullies and a "home" for the sociopathic.)



Ellen

Quote
automaticftp
All--

I joined and first posted here about 2.5 years ago--I went on a date with a woman who was a committed Landmarkian. That didn't go anywhere, and I remain deeply grateful for everyone who offered wisdom and experience.

Although some of this may be "TMI," I thought I would post again, as I have started dating a woman who is a committed Landmarkian. We have a lot in common--similar interests, backgrounds, etc, and we get along very well. There is a sense of ease in being together that is quite wonderful, and a sense that we have known each other a lot longer than we actually have.

However. She said her last serious relationship foundered when her partner refused to participate in various Landmark events. Today I received "the ultimatum:" She cannot be with someone who has not completed a Landmark course. For my part, I temporized and said I could not promise that I would choose to attend one. (For anyone who doesn't know, I have no intention of ever going to one.) She is apparently a small group leader.

I am interested to see how things go.....and if anyone is interested, I'll post further details as they occur.

Best,

Bob

I've been through the exact same thing. Looks as if this woman is my ex clone. She kept saying I didn't need to do the Landmark Forum, but on the other end she ended up the relationship because she said I was too righteous about not doing it, she couldn't tolerate that. Total nonsense, the ultimate contradiction. Those people must be suffering deep inside.

They [i:89f3d8b90a] are [/i:89f3d8b90a] suffering deep inside. What they are suffering from is a sense of absence, an incompletion of the self... a persistant nagging of unfinished business, parents who were not emotionally available, either lack of early structure giving them a powerful hunger for structure OR a sterile, one dimensional excess of structure without emotional balance.

There is a distinction between those who test the LGAT waters out of curiosity, learn a couple of interesting lessons, and move on with their lives, and those who become [i:89f3d8b90a] entranced [/i:89f3d8b90a] with the LGAT "family system" ...

It isn't the LGAT [i:89f3d8b90a] per se [/i:89f3d8b90a] that we should be concerned with but rather the process of [i:89f3d8b90a] entrancement [/i:89f3d8b90a] ... obviously such a deep recurring issue that many myths and fairy tales are based on the problems of entrancement.. or bewitchment... falling under the spell of powerful sorcerer archetypes who deprive the innocent of his or her will with magic sayings and chants... whereby the innocent enters a years long period of sleeplike servitude (which, notably, has a strong component of [i:89f3d8b90a] drudgework [/i:89f3d8b90a] )... typically accompanied by a theme of missing something, an Anima or Animus figure who must be present to complete the psyche... Prince Charming... and who is the authentic or true completion of the psyche, where the witch or sorcerer was the [i:89f3d8b90a] false completion of the psyche [/i:89f3d8b90a] ... the enduring theme is that, absent the true completion of the self, one falls prey to the "shortcut" of false completion.

Why, why, oh why do you imagine such themes have endured in folklore for at least the past 1000 years ? Koheleth/Ecclesiates had it partially right when he said that there is nothing new under the sun ... yes, there IS progress and innovation , and yes, humans will be confronted with psychic problems that they have been confronted with for tens of thousands of years... and hundreds of Great Weeners have come and gone in the meantime... or, as is said in the Talmud "the shadow of man is more like the shadow of birds than the shadow of trees" ...

Humph... somebody please hand out the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius to each and every ESTmark true believer, and with that a copy of Eric Hofer's "The True Believer" a fine and almost forgotten book that speaks directly to this phenomenon... a quick easy read too...

Well. Interestingly enough, the "ultimatum" has been softened considerably. There is now no timeframe, a development I find interesting, to say the least. Apparently the "no timeframe" approach was coached by another seminar leader.

Nutrino--I think you hit the nail on the head when you talk about their love of dominance. I've seen a few hints of that already. And I think I've gotten the "enrollment conversation," to which I replied that I've "chosen" not to enroll. Also, I've met some of her friends, many of whom seem to be Landmarkians, and I always get this mad inclination to yell out "Stepford wives! Stepford wives!"

Ellen--I'm ahead of the power curve! I've already started to sow some deprogramming seeds, beginning with "Surely you're not telling me that Landmark is the ONLY way to develop these skills?" and to "consider that there might well be other ways that work even better for others." As far as professional persuaders--I'm a lawyer in both trial and appellate practice--persuasion is, quite literally, my life. And I have to say that some of what this woman (who, I must confess, I like very much) has said is straight out of routine sales training, mixed with a dollop of warmed-over Heidegger. And I have to say--"the possibility of nothingness?" Please. I nearly ROFLMAO.

There do appear to be a couple of cracks in the armor--she has talked about Landmark has helped give her the skills to "deal with" her father's abandonment, but at other times she clearly has not processed it despite her claims to the contrary.

If I had to guess, I'd say she's betting I'll fall for her first and will then do whatever it takes to keep her, which would quickly, I'm sure, lead to the re-introduction of the original ultimatum.

All that said, it has been fun so far! Details as they occur.....

Bob