>>Are Impact trainees really taught there is no good or bad? Are they really taught there is no such thing as hope?<<

In an earlier post, maybe a year ago, I proposed that we take the best of the best from these 100+ pages and post it somewhere here to help people like you looking for information.

It's just someone needs to do that work.

And, frankly, we're all sick of the crap at these sewage spouting, heaven-guilded, $hit holes.

That said,

yes. the core technique for controlling people is to tell them there is no right and wrong, and no hope. Once they believe that, and it's amazing how simple and quick that "training" is, then they are yours to do with as you please.

Hans teaches that Satan is better than Christ because Satan agreed to his role in the Divine plan -- to create lessons for our lerning by appearing but not actually being "evil" (and there is no evil either).

This shows us as "processing" trainees to express gratitude for those things that "seemed" "bad." For example to not only forgiving a step-daddy or uncle who raped you at the age of 3, but being grateful for that. For the lessons and strength it gave you. because you see they were not evil, they were just doing something you asked them to do to you in the pre-existance for your own good. they are your friends actually, from the Spirit world. So is Satan. he is your friend, more than Jesus, because he agreed to play his role without getting all the positive worship/recognition Chirst lusted after.

and down the rabbit hole you go.

Grape-Lite/Harm-on-me has the same context -- "there is no right and wrong" and you must not only forgive but learn to be grateful to those who have hurt you in order to "own your power again."

Not sure if they teach the Satan-as-brother/friend of yours crap as fully as Impact does, but they are certainly both headed in the same direction.

I think eventually your wife and family will come out of it. It takes about 3 to 5 years to get over Quest/Summit. Assuming they don't go back and staff all the time.

----Ed

Too late to edit, typo below:

This shows us as "processing" trainees

should have been

"This shows up as "processing" trainees"

---Ed

"deserve"

One of the words and concepts the Impact people around me came home using (including my wife) is the word deserve, as in "I deserve" A or B.

Now, I look at that word and concept as a blank check to do or pursue anything I want, because I deserve it. According to my wife, she deserved to treat herself to Summit and Liftoff after she got the hard sell in Quest. But what about the woman with the poor spending habits who tells herself she deserves to have more clothing and a new car, even though she has tens of thousands of dollars in credit card debt? Or my sister-in-law who tells herself that she deserves to act like a teen again and spend every night out with her new boyfriend instead of her own children? Or the criminally-minded man who tells himself he deserves to have another man's property?When a rational individual looks at the logical conclusions the concept of "I deserve" will lead to, then we begin to see all the trouble that concept of deserving can bring to individuals.

Catbus,

In response to your earlier questions here is a very rough (and unfortunately short) schedule for Quest and Summit that should line up with your wife's manic-depressive mood swings:

Quest:

Day 1 - The trainees spend the entire day getting chewed out. There are several processes but the end result of each one is that the group and certain individuals get chewed out over and over and over. I'll leave it open for others to fill in the specific processes, if they so desire, but since the end result of all of them is the same on this day I see little reason to distinguish one from another.

Day 2 - Much like Day 1 the string of lectures and processes has the intended result of tearing apart the trainees. This day ends with the "Feedback Arcs" exercise that most trainees seem to remember as the low point in Quest and the Impact Trainings as a whole (unless they move on to the TIT series and watch people flush their whole lives down the toilet because they want to act like children, that was the most depressing part for me).

Day 3 - Begins with a few hours of open mike where most trainees say something like, "I couldn't sleep last night because..." or "Last night was the worst night of my life because...". A few songs are played and several lectures are given to move the group into a frame of mind suitable for the chair beating exercise. The chair beating leads into the "Inner Child" phase which leads to dancing, running and finally horrific singing at the end of the day. Everybody leaves with smiles on their faces ready to return for the final day of Quest.

Day 4 - Begins with several lectures on God and sometimes Hans makes a ridiculous claim or two (like his assertion that it was the TIT 3 group's use of the violet flame that stopped the Show Low, AZ wild fires. Thank you AZ fire departments for risking your lives but apparently you were not needed after all...). The day ends with a hard-sell summit enrollment exercise and finally graduation.


Summit:

Day 1 - Much like the beginning of Quest, Summit's initial exercises are all about tearing down the group. Several small group exercises are used to gather intensely personal and sensitive information about the trainees then this information is used in an exercise later on to assign condescending nicknames that the trainees are required to use when referring to others and themselves (For example, a woman who admits to being sexually abused by a family member might end up with the nickname "Daddy's Joy Toy"). The day ends with the lifeboat exercise where the trainees leave after experiencing the joy of visualizing their own deaths.

Day 2 - Like Day 3 of Quest, this day starts low then builds toward the "Katharsis" process (which is essentially the chair beating exercise on steroids). From there the inner children are brought back and trainees come up with their "contracts", Pamela dances, the staff dances and the "People Don't Change" lecture is offered as gospel. At the end of this day the trainees are given stretches (essentially skits intended to allow the trainees to express something about themselves, for example a group of heavyset women will have to dress and behave as cows then transform into 10 tons of crazy belly dancing).

Day 3 - Stretch Day. Trainees show up in costume and dance. Everyone performs their skits and the day ends with the feast and footwashing exercises.

Day 4 - I honestly don't remember much from this day except for the hard-sell lift off exercise and graduation.




Anyway, hope this makes the pieces fit for you Catbus!

Thanks for the info on the Impact training "processes".

Why would my wife allow herself to be yelled at for hours and hours?

Why would my wife allow herself to be called by a degrading nick-name?

Why would she talk about her deepest secrets with complete strangers, none of whom are licensed, educated therapists?

Why would she accept philosphies of men that directly contradict what she had been taught in the Christian scriptures her whole life? Hope, good vs. evil, the law of the harvest. Why do people readily shut off their minds and suspend all critical thinking when the go to Impact?

Since I have not been through Impact, I have had to gather all my info about it from outside sources and former trainees (for which I am grateful for the inside info). My wife refused to tell me what she did all those days and nights at Impact. That one action of refusing to share with me is incredibly hurtful, even to this day. I am her husband. There are supposed to be no secrets. It stabs me to think she is more loyal to complete strangers than to her husband. To this day she has never apologized for leaving me out.

I recall overhearing a conversation between my wife and one of her sisters. They were discussing some Impact douchebag named Justin. The part I heard that has stuck with me sincewent something like this:

My wife: "At first I did not llike Justin."

Sister: "And what did you think of him after Friday?"

My wife: "Oh, I love him!"

What the hell?

How can anyone claim to love someone after spending 2 days getting yelled at and criticised by that person? How can anyone claim to love someone after just meeting them?

I am not a jealous husband. I let my wife do what she wants (obvioulsy), and I do not call her and check up. I have no reason to fear she would leave me for another man. It's when I saw her change into some love-bombed, manic Impactee that I became disturbed at how quickly and willfully she accepted things she normally would not have accepted.

She came home after her Summit graduation, after I had walked out in the middle of it, and we argued about what she was doing. My wife told me we each had an "ego mind" that we get rid of when we die. The ego mind is worldly and is where all the problems in our lives reside. I'm paraphrasing, but that is the concept. I asked her if this was new revelation from Hans, because it certainly is not what we believe as LDS. She had no answer for that.

Not long after her 3 Impact training courses, my wife's sister began passing aroud the DVD "The Secret". "Oh, no," I thought. I thought she was done with this crap. I watched "The Secret" and tried to view it objectively. What a load of crap! New Agey philosophy, the Law of Attraction. THE SECRET is so unabashedly materialistic! Women lusting after jewelry, men lusting after cars. A boy wishes for a bike and BAM! there it is. What ever happened to the concept of hard work? I went over to my wife's sister's house. Of course, they have the dollar bill with a bunch of zeros written after the 1, taped to the wall. No millions are rolling their way yet. Stay tuned.

I just got back from the doctor. Yep, I had to go because of anxiety attacks. Yay - xanax. I told him why I had taken so long to come back - I said that I was getting bombarded by people telling me that I could just will the problem away (ala the secret - what a coincidence). I mentioned the problems I had due to the fact that everyone I knew either subscribed to the idea that will power, faith or positive thinking were enough to solve all my problems otherwise I just just being a big victim. Obviously, because of my medical problems, going through Impact was pretty well the worst thing I could have done and I am pretty alone in my thinking right now that a medical professional is a good idea. I couldn't get an appointment with a psychiatrist until next week, but this doctor is helping me with anxiety until then.

Catbus, why would your wife put up with all that? Because they word it and work up to it in a way that SEEMS so similar to other things she's done that she saw as good. Like church or maybe even therapy. Also, because there have been studies proving over and over again that we don't think when we're in a herd. Pure and simple. 75-80% of people will conform to varying degrees to mildly (or not so mildly) objectionable situations if the majority seems to be in agreement. I think that's the true reason for the staff. There are staff members that take people out when they are being naughty and then half the time people come back crying, repentant. The majority of people I saw leave successfully, just snuck away. Why'd your wife put up with it? Some one "angelled" her. Someone (most likely) close to her talked her into it. That some one told her to "Trust the process" "Float with it" By the way "floating" is also what it's called when a former cult member is having basically a post traumatic stress moment after they've left. Do I sound pissed? I am pissed. My life is piss right now. I'm in even worse shape than when I started with those bozos. And my life wasn't all that hot to begin with. But at least then I wasn't on Xanax.

Here's the main reason people do this - they don't believe that cults exist. And they especially don't believe that they would be duped themselves. Pure and simple. That's the reason. I tried telling someone the other day about it and he laughed at me. He said, "Why can't you just count it as entertainment and move on?" I refrained from hitting him. I thought it was quite generous of me. No, everyone is just too smart. They won't believe that anyone in Utah would be a cold hearted abusive con-artist not only out to take your money but also out to leave you emotionally bankrupt and mentally traumatized. That couldn't happen here. Especially when so many people going through this training are temple reccomend holders. There's your thought process right there. IMHO. No, not bitter... not at all....

Addiction, Mind Altering Things, and What Can We Do?

There is a common thread that seems to run through addictions to a multitude of things that include LGAT/Impact type indoctrinations, alcoholism, drug addiction, gambling addiction and such. This thread is the alteration of the human mind. Whether by chemicals, mind altering processes, or their coercive/deceptive companions; the net effect on the human soul seems to be very similar. We have seen how quick acting the addictive effect of Quest can be; on the order of hours, if not minutes, are all that are needed to make the new addict think, feel, and believe that they have suddenly grasped a new, profound reality, had a flock of breakthroughs and shaken off control and reached a liberated state of euphoria. Whether it is LSD, TIT or LMT, or whatever LGAT the results are similar.

Cocaine is said to have such a quick acting addictive effect that after only one hit, the new addict would kill their grandmother to get another fix. It took a while for society to learn the danger with cocaine. The first Coca Cola had actual coke, that is, cocaine at a low dose in it. Until our laws catch up with reality and regulate LGAT stuff, we are stuck in the rut we were in before cocaine was made a controlled substance. If we recognize the Impact addict as just that, and deal with this addict in a way that seems to be working with other addictive things, we may have found something that works. Whether they are right or wrong, Al-anon, Nar-anon and so on seem to work for co-dependants of alcohol and drug addicts as does AA for the alcoholic. Would an Imp-anon work and what would it look like? Well it would need to be modified for confidentiality to protect members from retribution the moment Impact principals got wind of it. I suggest that just having a forum like this one is already a big first step toward creating a LGAT/Impact-anon.

These various existing “anons” have done a lot of good for their members, just has have their corresponding “anonymous” counterparts. It seems to make sense to not think of Impact as a religion or a philosophy, even though it has elements of both, but to recognize Impact Trainings as an addictive, mind altering process and treat it the same way other addictive things are treated with some success. There is hope for the co-dependant loved one if they can understand what Impact Training really is. As with all addictive things, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Once someone is in the vortex of addiction their loved ones are sucked in by proximity and risk becoming co-dependant if they don’t detach in a way that allows the addict to realize the consequences of their behavior. There is a lot of low cost literature out there in books and on the Web on addiction and co-dependency. I have found reviewing it to be most helpful and recommend this approach as a help in understanding what is going on at Impact Trainings. I hope this helps some of those who have recently posted here in dismay and frustration with the results of Impact Trainings. This is why Impact hates the words HOPE, HELP and UNDERSTAND so much.

Hopeful, would you mind listing two or three of the most helpful books you were thinking of? There is such an avalanche of titles that I really don't know where to start. But you really hit a nerve. I can see where I have been slowly overcoming certain things but I know there are other things I just don't even realize are there. My biggest problem is that I heard sooooo many different references to self help and other religious and new age literature there that when I run across something too much like what they were saying at Impact, it's almost like an post traumatic stress syndrome reaction. I don't know if I can believe it's really any good. But they were babbling about so many things in the classes, staffing and at lunches that it was impossible to not touch on almost all subjects at least a litttle. I used to respond to hypnotherapy for relaxation before, now it freaks me out. It does feel sometimes like it would be easier to just go back. - I won't, but it's hard feeling so confused. This is deffinitely in line with quitting narcotics or opiates. I was on them long term for pain and mentally quitting them it is very similar to quitting Impact.

Thanks for pointing that out. This is doable. I've quit morphine, oxycontin and other harsher things that would spell out who I am and I survived. Hey, I'm stronger than any of those Impact SOB's ever were. I can do this. It just royally sucks right now. A direction for what to read would be cool and helpful.

I just had a thought, I do have some literature on Rational Emotive Therapy. Is anyone familiar with it? And if so, do you have an opinion as to it's useulness for recovery from this? It does work pretty well for undoing some of the land-minds left with PTSS.

too much, forgive me if I've missed something in one of your previous posts but are you seeing a professional counselor? I haven't been to Impact (just care for some people who have) but much of what you've said I can relate to. You are obviously a strong person who has been through a lot and it is apparent that you can indeed get past this. It sounds to me like you're looking for answers about who you are and what you believe after having the courage and the intelligence to recognize a dressed up crock of shit (Impact) when you saw it. Give yourself a huge pat on the back for that, but also is it fair to say that on a level even more fundamental than an addiction, your very sense of self has been shaken up?

From what I've read and heard, Impact tears down your sense of identity (condemns it as something bad, dysfunctional, broken) then creates a new powerful identity for you that subtly makes you dependent on Impact. Impact "fixes" you by giving you a new and tantalizing set of beliefs about who you are that are so peculiar, you have to keep going back to have those beliefs, i.e. your SELF, validated. It's brainwashing and bullshit at its lowest. People keep going back because that is the only place where they can be validated -- no one in normal society is going to validate you as an angel, or an Ascended Master, or someone with a special power to talk to dead people, or as Buddha in a previous life, but at Impact you're some or all those things and even a God. (Hence, Hans et al are enabled to buy Mercedes after Mercedes to park in their multi-car garages). At Impact you have a family who "gets" you and who you can comfortably go shopping for Lumerian crystals with. Walking away from that is no easy accomplishment. You're leaps and bounds ahead of the Impact junkies who can't give it up and are instead happily chewing their prescription meds while deluding themselves into believing they're more powerful and enlightened than the rest of us.

I'm going through a similar situation but for different reasons. In my case I left a religion that has defined my identity and my life's purpose for all of my life. That's a very difficult thing to do because I was devout and a true believer when I learned some things that made it all come crumbling down. Now I wake up almost every morning feeling like I've lost something and I want to lay in bed until I find it. As I told my counselor, I know I could eventually get through this by myself, I know I'm strong enough to do it, but it's the most difficult thing I've ever done and because my insurance pays for it I'd prefer to use her professional services to hopefully help me become more self-aware and get through the emotional and intellectual mine field faster and with fewer bumps and bruises and lost limbs.

Good luck to you!

JK

too much,

Melody Beattie has written several books that you should look at. One is Codependent No More, How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself, published by the Hazelden Foundation, 1992. I suggest also that you google on Hazelden Foundation. They have had over 50 years of helping people recover from addictions. My main suggestion is to look at Impact processes as addictive and see if the Hazelden Plan, 12 Steps and all might help with the effects of Impact addiction just as they do with alcohol and chemical addiction. Let us know if you find anything useful in this lead information. My theory is that you will.