fatherof3,

Would you mind telling us more specifically what kind of comments and body posture from Hans put you off, and also more specifically what you learned on impact that was useful to you? Sometimes the devil (or the good) is in the detail, both for the positive and the negative.

army-of-me,

Thanks, its stressful writing about it so its good to know someone is finding it helpful. I find every tiny detail written by everyone here healing and enlightening, its all just pieces of the puzzle falling together (pardon the puke [i:3ff6680e48]healing and enlightening [/i:3ff6680e48]words but I can't think of good synonyms right now - help welcome).

I have heard it mentioned several times on this thread that life boat, along with the arcs was one of the most damaging of all the processes. Would anyone be interested in relating their experience with this or experiences they witnessed in detail?

I am just curious. My experience was very wierd. I was pretty much confused the entire time. I remember that my brain was going crazy trying to figure out what on earth they were doing. I just didn't get it! I remember them having us stand up and tell why we deserved to be on the boat/live.

Then I remember the circle and sticks. I remember thinking that was kind of dumb because you would never be forced to do something like that in real life, but yet they made out as if it were the real deal. And the whole "you just told this person they didn't go and you can't even look them in the eye!!?" from the staff, which didn't make sense to me because who would? I was a tiny bit hurt for a minute when a few people didn't give me sticks, but I blew it off because they only had three and I knew that it was nothing personal for the people I didn't give sticks to so I didn't take it personally when they said "you don't go" to me.

I remember being utterly confused at Pamela spending twenty minutes yelling at someone because he gave his last stick away. I was confused as to why that was such a bad thing if they were really trying to teach us unconditional love for others and that service is the highest form of love.

I recieved a couple sticks and kept one for myself (which I had mixed feelings about) but still did not make it on the boat. Then they simulated dying in the ocean. I cried a little at the idea of never seeing my family again, but that was pretty much it.

I was just honestly confused as to what exactly I was supposed to be getting out of it. After a while I finally decided that their purpose was to make people want to live. That was good for me, sure, I didn't want to die and there were still things I wanted to do. So yeah that was pretty much it for me. Extremely confusing and somewhat uneventful. I never really heard anyone talk about it afterwards.

So when I heard it referred to as one of the most damaging processes, I was a bit surprised. Having recalled the details of my experience in writing this message, I do remember a few people who were really difficult to tell that they did'nt get to go. It broke my heart just looking at them. I remember desperately wanting to explain to them that it wasn't personal....but I guess in reality it was because i just didn't choose them. Wow, is that it? Is it the peopole who get no votes. Oh that is gut wrenching to think that they put me in a place where I was forced to do that to someone. Umm, I think I just got it. (shudder)

I still do want to hear from other people about this process.

Quote
Disenchanted
I have heard it mentioned several times on this thread that life boat, along with the arcs was one of the most damaging of all the processes. Would anyone be interested in relating their experience with this or experiences they witnessed in detail?

I am just curious. My experience was very wierd. I was pretty much confused the entire time. I remember that my brain was going crazy trying to figure out what on earth they were doing. I just didn't get it! I remember them having us stand up and tell why we deserved to be on the boat/live.

Then I remember the circle and sticks. I remember thinking that was kind of dumb because you would never be forced to do something like that in real life, but yet they made out as if it were the real deal. And the whole "you just told this person they didn't go and you can't even look them in the eye!!?" from the staff, which didn't make sense to me because who would? I was a tiny bit hurt for a minute when a few people didn't give me sticks, but I blew it off because they only had three and I knew that it was nothing personal for the people I didn't give sticks to so I didn't take it personally when they said "you don't go" to me.

I remember being utterly confused at Pamela spending twenty minutes yelling at someone because he gave his last stick away. I was confused as to why that was such a bad thing if they were really trying to teach us unconditional love for others and that service is the highest form of love.

I recieved a couple sticks and kept one for myself (which I had mixed feelings about) but still did not make it on the boat. Then they simulated dying in the ocean. I cried a little at the idea of never seeing my family again, but that was pretty much it.

I was just honestly confused as to what exactly I was supposed to be getting out of it. After a while I finally decided that their purpose was to make people want to live. That was good for me, sure, I didn't want to die and there were still things I wanted to do. So yeah that was pretty much it for me. Extremely confusing and somewhat uneventful. I never really heard anyone talk about it afterwards.

So when I heard it referred to as one of the most damaging processes, I was a bit surprised. Having recalled the details of my experience in writing this message, I do remember a few people who were really difficult to tell that they did'nt get to go. It broke my heart just looking at them. I remember desperately wanting to explain to them that it wasn't personal....but I guess in reality it was because i just didn't choose them. Wow, is that it? Is it the peopole who get no votes. Oh that is gut wrenching to think that they put me in a place where I was forced to do that to someone. Umm, I think I just got it. (shudder)

I still do want to hear from other people about this process.

Klemmer & Associates uses this excercise in their third seminar called heart of a Samurai. Which is very disturbing in the context of the rest of the seminar setting which is suppose to be about abundance as it is set in a plush resort in San Diego, California (Paradise Point).

I went through as a participant once, and later as a volunteer staff for this particular seminar.

It was just as disturbing for me as a staff person, as it was as a first time participant. More so as a staff person. Which was to create as much chao's as possible. We were told to create as much friction as possible for the participants.

As I look back on my overall experience. What the main purpose in this excercise was intended to accomplish in a participant was a further breaking down of core belief systems in each participant.

Heck what is a participant suppose to do when they face the fact that their core belief system that drives their unconscious decisions can be causing others to die. (Especially for participants who choose to engage these excercises with all of their emotions as I chose to do?)

Yuck, Yuck...

Left me not liking my core belief sytems, and wanting a better set of core belief systems to live by.

BINGO... This is exactly the purpose of these excercises. Now I am right where the LGAT wants me.

OPEN TO THEIR BETTER SET OF CORE BELIEF SYSTEMS (PHILOSPHY)

This is what it is all about. This is the purpose of these excercises.

This is also where the deception comes in. Because this philosphy is a belief system, and they brainwash you into believing it is not.

Well, lets call it what it is.

A BELIEF SYSTEM THAT GETS SWAPPED OUT IN THE PROCESS OF MAKING YOU WANT TO GET RID OF YOUR OWN BELIEF SYSTEMS.

I don't recall this specifically being posted on this thread (especially with reliable source links), and I think it's important, regardless of one's religious affiliations:

THE LDS VIEW ON SELF-AWARENESS GROUPS (aka Impact Trainings & all other LGAT's)[/size:e9bf6f3c25]
[/color:e9bf6f3c25]

Self-Awareness Groups

The First Presidency sent the following letter, dated 21 June 1999, to priesthood leaders in the United States and Canada:

We again remind Church members to be cautious in seeking help from groups that purport to increase self-awareness, raise self-esteem, or enhance individual agency. Some such groups falsely claim or imply Church endorsement. Some charge exorbitant fees or encourage long-term commitments. Some intermingle worldly concepts with gospel principles in ways that can undermine spirituality and faith. We call your attention to guidelines regarding self-awareness groups found in the Church Handbook of Instructions, page 157, and reprinted on the reverse side of this letter [see Self-Awareness Group Guidelines].

There is usually no quick solution to social or emotional difficulties. Those who suffer from such difficulties should exercise great care in choosing appropriate professionals to assist them. As always, members may consult with priesthood leaders for guidance in identifying sources of help that are fully consistent with gospel principles.

Ward and branch councils should consider carefully whether members in their units are being drawn into such groups. If so, the bishop or branch president should take necessary steps to acquaint these members with the foregoing principles and enclosed guidelines. Where appropriate, the guidelines may be published in ward/branch bulletins. Bishops and branch presidents should use them in counseling members as they deem advisable.

Self-Awareness Group Guidelines

Church members should not participate in groups that:

1. Challenge religious and moral values or advocate unwarranted confrontation with spouse or family members as a means of reaching one’s potential.

2. Imitate sacred rites or ceremonies.

3. Foster physical contact among participants.

4. Meet late into the evening or in the early-morning hours.

5. Encourage open confession or disclosure of personal information normally discussed only in confidential settings.

6. Cause a husband and wife to be paired with other partners.

SOURCE LINK (scroll down to "policies and announcements"):
[lds.org]
another here:
[lds.org]
another here:
[lds.org]

Quote
formerimpactgrad
exImpact mentioned that, in his opinion, LDS people tend to have the most difficult time being involved with the Impact Trainings because their beliefs are regularly challenged and often belittled. I fully support everything that was said in his paragraph.

I am not LDS myself but while in the training I became aware of a release from the head of that faith regarding "self-awareness groups". I have added the link to a copy of the Salt Lake Tribune article reporting the release of this statement. [www.culteducation.com]

I'm sure the original release can be obtained from an LDS ecclesiastical leader if anyone wants to check my sources.

The release contains a list of criteria that LDS church members should look to avoid if considering an "awareness training". In the words of the release:

"Church members should not participate in groups that:

1. Challenge religious and moral values or advocate unwarranted confrontation with spouse or family members as a means of reaching one's potential.
2. Imitate sacred rites or ceremonies.
3. Foster physical contact among participants.
4. Meet late into the evening or in the early-morning hours.
5. Encourage open confession or disclosure of personal information normally discussed only in confidential settings.
6. Cause a husband and wife to be paired with other partners."

All six of these criteria apply to the Impact Trainings. I will address each in order;

1. As a part of the Lift Off training, trainees are asked to write a letter to a family member describing all of the ways that their relationship has been disfunctional in the past. As a "Plus One" challenge, trainees are told to mail or read the letter to that family member. While the intent of the exercise is to foster an improved relationship, the act of mailing or reading the letter definitely "advocates unwarranted confrontation as a means of reaching one's potential."

2. As a part of the Summit Training, trainees are encouraged to wash eachothers' feet as a part of a particular process. This is an obvious imitation of a rite or ceremony that is sacred to people of many faiths.

3. Hugging and other physical contact is encouraged and expected.

4. Most of my core trainings and nearly all of my TIT trainings ended long after midnight.

5. In the first day of the Quest Training, I was asked to disclose my "deepest and darkest secret" to another member of my training group.

6. Husbands and wives were paired with other partners at every level of the core trainings, often with another member of the oposite sex.

In short, if you are LDS I can assure you that involvement with the Impact Trainings will be a source of confusion and tension. Your beliefs will be challenged and your organization will be ridiculed at every level of the training. Many of the backhanded remarks will be presented as friendly jokes, but the intent is clear. Also, let no one delude you into thinking that the LDS church's release does not apply to the Impact Trainings. It meets all six of the listed criteria.

Oops, I just found where this Former had already posted the LDS' First Presidency's warning about Self-Awareness Groups... However, my posting had the full text and the LDS.org link... AND it also gives me an excuse to quote Former's original post detailing how Impact meets each of the criteria.

Disenchanted wrote:

Quote

I have heard it mentioned several times on this thread that life boat, along with the arcs was one of the most damaging of all the processes. Would anyone be interested in relating their experience with this or experiences they witnessed in detail?

Hi Disenchanted,

We also did the lifeboat on Inquest. It was the same as you've described except that had to tell each person "I choose you to live because..." or "I choose you to die because...." - also standing very close in front of them, in their personal space, and looking into their eyes the whole time. A neutral-sounding reason was not acceptable, they pushed us to be harsh with our reasons and screamed and shouted abuse when people didn't give good reasons. They also made out that we weren't "supporting" each other if we didn't give good reasons (i.e. insults and abuse), the same attitude as in feedback arcs. They made out negative feedback was for the good of the recipient.

There were 16 people in our group and four places on the lifeboat. We used dolls instead of sticks to represent a place on the boat.

The lifeboat followed closely after feedback arcs and standing on a platform telling our life stories for 'feedback' from the trainers.

By the time we got to the lifeboat I was shell-shocked from a lot of negative feedback and a dismissive attitude towards my life. I remember standing and trying to brace myself for another attack every time a person stood in front of me and said why I should live or die. Each "I choose you to die" was like a punch in the solar plexus, even though I knew intellectually it was nothing personal from most people, just an awkward choice they had to make - I was very tired and broken down by then. There were a few people who seemed to relish the exercise and went out of their way to say hurtful things, for no discernible reason.

I got a few dolls but not enough to be on the lifeboat. I felt ridiculous degrees of gratitude for the people who chose me to live.

When my turn came I tried to phrase things that made it obvious it was more 'about me' than about them, and to say neutral things. I got screamed at for that. Then my mind started going blank and I just stook in front of each person till I got screamed at, then I blurted out whatever the first thing was that came to mind. I can't remember a lot of what I said. After I'd given three dolls away I got a hunch that I would be accused of suicide if I gave the last one away so I kept it.

I remember getting looks of pure hatred or bewildered pain from people as I told them I chose them to die. I tried to distribute the dolls to people who didn't have many. One or two that I chose to die seemed unbothered but the rest looked very bothered. Many were crying already and cried more when I said that. By the end of it I felt physically nauseous and I had to concentrate on my breathing so that I didn't throw up; luckily I hadn't eaten much.

At the end those who gave all the dolls away were screamed at for being suicidal and not wanting to live. It was a vicious attack and I was very relieved I'd kept the last doll for myself. The people who I saw accused of being suicidal seemed to take it very badly. I've heard it said this is supposed to be a "wake up call" for people with self-destructive tendencies.

If you consider there are 12 people out of 16 who will be voted off to die I think this is just an exercise in rejection, part of the breaking down. Its a guilt-inducing exercise because you are forced to say hurtful things to people and see them suffer. You're pressured to say things that make you feel bad about yourself. Then as the cherry on top they scream that if you didn't get enough votes its because you chose that yourself, so you are accused of being self-destructive as well as destructive of others.

Then there were the four people who get voted to live. In our group they were held up as 'saviours' and 'the people we chose to save us'. They were put in the middle of the room on chairs and music was played for them. I don't know what the point of that was other than to cause division. Two of the four were people that I really liked, the other two were the only ones in the group I actually disliked. Some looked embarrassed to be there, and got annoyed later that the role had been foisted on them; one was kind of arrogant about it and used it to throw their weight around after that.

The four who were voted onto the lifeboat were also the four that got the most positive feedback from trainers in the feedback arcs, and looking back I think a lot of people voted in line with the trainers opinions to get their approval. Three of them owned their own businesses and at the time I thought that made them natural leaders therefore naturally voted for but looking back I suspect that the trainers have an agenda from the beginning to give positive feedback to people who are wealthy and have positions of influence in the outside world. I can't be sure of that, its just a suspicion I have.


I left the exercise feeling guilty for what I'd said to people and feeling worthless for not being chosen, and dumb-struck by some of the reasons people gave to me and others, which seemed particularly cruel. I felt humanity as a whole was a pretty shabby thing, myself included, and also if I had to be like the two people I disliked in order to be saved or a saviour, I'd rather be dead. They say the exercise is supposed to make you want to 'fight' or work harder to live but it left me feeling as if I deserved to die and that the only way to survive would be to be something other than myself and I didn't want to be something other than myself. My ability to reason things out was pretty shattered by then already; it was the second night and I'd only had about two hours sleep the night before so it was all over-whelming.

Of course if you did the exercise in isolation it wouldn't be that bad, but after all the other stuff and little sleep and with it being done in semi-darkness, with music playing and the whole dramatic element... I can see why its considered one of the most damaging processes. The research articles I've read say that rejection exercises are the most damaging aspect of the courses and I think this is just designed as a rejection exercise for the majority of people in the group and an opportunity to boost selected people for whatever reason. Its a lose-lose situation for everyone who gets voted to die and for the people who are uncomfortable with the saviour role. Its also a lose-situation for everyone who votes others to die, unless they are psychopaths.

It was also traumatic being stuck in the middle of a closed circle of people, in semi-darkness, with all that negative emotion of hatred and pain and the assistants screaming at everyone, and the dolls looking all ghoulish.

The most shaming thing is that I participated in this disgusting game. Under normal circumstances I would not take part in something like that, I would just say "no, its cruel", don't be ridiculous. But under the environment I did take part in it. I remember at the time the trainers saying to 'trust the process'. Every time we were told to do something that went against my gut feel someone seemed to say "trust the process" and "participate". That very phrase makes me nauseous to this day. You could say I learnt a lesson to not take part in that kind of game or human interaction but if so that is all I learned, and it is something I knew already, only now I'd be sharper about it and more quick to recognise it and more deterined not to take part. And I learned not to trust people and not to trust the process but to trust my own gut feel. To this day I lie awake sometimes at night and wish I could go back, and shout and scream and refuse to take part.

Quite frankly its repulsive to even think about now. I still get nauseous thinking about it. The feedback arcs and this voting exercise are like taking part in the milgrams experiment, where you are put into a position of abuser and abused at the same time. Experiments like milgrams are banned in respected research environments because they are too damaging to the participants.

Thanks Disentchanted for opening the subject.

Rswinters wrote:

Quote

Which was to create as much chao's as possible. We were told to create as much friction as possible for the participants.

Thanks for this Rs. Its helpful to know what they were trying to achieve with this, sick as it is. I hope others who've staffed will add more information on what the instructions are for staffing this exercise.

Hello My Dear Friends and Readers,

I wanted to take a moment to chime in on this discussion, as I HAVE PERSONALLY gone through the Impact Trainings Program and I can honestly tell you that there is NO CULT LIKE BEHAVIOR that I have ever witnesed.

I have been in some of the most advanced forms of training in the world including Anthony Robbins and Donald Trump, These do not even come close what I received at Impact.

First off, There is no shunning of those who chose not to move forward in the program. If you have friends going through the program, There is indeed a sense of confidentiality to everything that goes on in impact, just like the Landmark Education Program and many others, but this confidentiality is essential so that the participants who are actively involved are truly in a safe and secure environment. THAT is why they will not tell you the processes that they go through. Impact is completely different for every person. My experience at Impact is not like any others. It is truly a personal journey.

Why has Impact not expanded "across the nation" as one commentator expressed? Well the reason for this is very simple. The program that is presented by Impact Trainings is the only one of it's type in the world.

There is no similarity to the other LGAT programs anywhere in the world in 95% of the areas of focus and training.

THAT is why they do not expand, as the vision has now been perfected over time and those who are the ones whom give of their time, know that they are changing lives, so to try and replicate the program in some formulamatic way is impossible. The program is also a very evolving program. What one person may have experienced a year ago may only be 20% of what has now evolved in the trainings.

I can speak from personal experience, that I have attended every single Impact Trainings Training that they offer, and there was never one single time that I felt that I was "in over my head" or that I was being forced via peer pressure or any other way, to do ANYTHING that I did not choose into.

[...]

I can promise you that had I not gotten involved with the Impact Trainings Program, that my life would not be even close to the level that it is right now. And all I will say on that is that I am VERY SECURE, both financially and mentally.

I am completely aware of who I am. I have amazing relationships with my friends, family and even my ex wife. She is now one of my best friends.

I can tell you that there has never been one time that I have recruited anyone to go through the program, but because of the DIFFERENCE in ME, I have worked with almost 300 people who have decided on their own accord to go through the program, because they felt and saw something different in me.

That is correct, almost 300 people because of the way that I AM. And NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON was "recruited" by me.

In conclusion, let me state that Donald Trump has said that ANYTIME that you are achieving success in ANY WAY, that there will ALWAYS be people on the outside shooting bullets at you, out of pure spite and jealousy.

[...]

Moneytrainer:

You are entitled to believe whatever you wish, but preaching and attemtping to recruit people for Impact on this board is against the rules you agreed to.

Sections of your post soliciting people to attend Impact and preaching about it have been edited out.

Please post within the rules.

Moneytrainer is a user name commonly used by Robert Paisola, who we have discussed on several occasions in this forum. Obviously he is not the most credible of sources since he has a history of dishonest and illegal behavior.

Moneytrainer's first post on the thread was to promote a press release, written by Robert Paisola, about the Impact trainings that attempted to give them credibility. The press release was based on quotes given by a fabricated source named Albert Reizeker (I personally contacted both branches of the University of New England and such a person has never worked there).

Quote
Robert Paisola
I wanted to take a moment to chime in on this discussion, as I HAVE PERSONALLY gone through the Impact Trainings Program and I can honestly tell you that there is NO CULT LIKE BEHAVIOR that I have ever witnesed.

Robert, I have also gone through the Impact Trainings Program and TIT3 is ALL CULT LIKE BEHAVIOR. Its humorous that you would suggest otherwise.

Quote
Robert Paisola
There is no similarity to the other LGAT programs anywhere in the world in 95% of the areas of focus and training.

This statement is a flat out lie. I have read the processes and procedures for the landmark trainings and the first couple of levels are virtually identical to Impact's Quest and Summit trainings. Even Hans Berger stated on several occasions that trainings equivalent to Quest, Summit and Lift-Off were available at other institutions.

Quote
Robert Paisola
I can promise you that had I not gotten involved with the Impact Trainings Program, that my life would not be even close to the level that it is right now. And all I will say on that is that I am VERY SECURE, both financially and mentally.

Robert, I know more about you than I think you're aware and I know for certain that you are neither secure mentally or financially. You would be surprised what's out there if you know where to look! You build your businesses on glass palaces of claims that are difficult to verify. The Lexus is a tool that you use to support your claims. It works on some people because they never see the small condo in Lehi that you live in. That is how you have operated for quite awhile. The problem with that is that eventually you run into someone who doesn't accept what you say at face value and takes the time to do some research.

Quote
Robert Paisola
I can tell you that there has never been one time that I have recruited anyone to go through the program, but because of the DIFFERENCE in ME, I have worked with almost 300 people who have decided on their own accord to go through the program, because they felt and saw something different in me.

That is correct, almost 300 people because of the way that I AM. And NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON was "recruited" by me.

Umm, I'll just call BS on this statement. Everyone that I talk to about you first mentions your general level of creepiness. Many have stated that they would rather not have any contact with you at all if they didn't "have to" do business with you. I haven't met anyone that is impressed with you (and believe me, I've looked!).

Good Luck Robert, try not to go back to prison!

Oh, I guess I should add that he has a [b:71720c3152]recent history of dishonest and illegal behavior[/b:71720c3152] since sometimes statements like that are used out of context or unfairly.