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Philips
Thanks Hopeful. Your post resonated for myself and most likely all LDS people who come here. As ExImpact had already said several times here, about 50% of the Impact trainees are LDS, and it is a big problem with LDS people [i:07aac46407][b:07aac46407](has that actually been studied or is that a guess?)[/b:07aac46407][/i:07aac46407] so your post will reach out to many people. Better to reach 50% than not to reach any at all.

Which part are you asking about what has been studied? The number of LDS trainees or that it is a big problem?

Of course, the number of LDS people who are involved in the trainings fluctuates from training to training. I was referring to the TIT 3 group when I was involved. I am not sure what it is now, but I would guess they still have significant numbers in that group.

As for the LDS problem, I have studied theology and religious philosophy enough to know that much of what TIT teaches is logically contradictory to LDS doctrine. So, I suppose that could count as study. As far as it can be done I think. Please do not construe my post to hopeful soul as unwillingness to look at this problem from the LDS perspective. I was born and raised active LDS for the first half of my life, and I have close friends who are active in the LDS community, specifically they are experts in LDS philosophical and comparative theological thought. I consult with them often concerning the content of this forum. Although I may not be Mormon any longer, I am sympathetic to the plight of those in the TIT cult, as has hopefully been apparent in my previous posts.

What the main conflict of interest is between TIT and LDS doctrine, is that TIT's universalist logic renders the need for appointed and anointed modern prophets and even the very priesthood itself as impotent and wholly unnecessary. By cutting out the middle men (bishops, stake presidents, the brethren, the apostles and the presidency) they also nullify the need for the principle of repentance.

So, my questions are: If you believe you have the authority of Jesus Christ yourself, what need do you have to appeal to ANY authority in ANY organized religion? How can you not see that your continued relationship with the church is just lip service and a stubbornness to leave an organization you know in your heart is true? I say, become an honest person and follow that stubbornness and return to the church, wholly. Or leave it and join TIT, BUT before you do that, look at which organization mentally conditioned you to join, which organization lies about its status as a religion, which organization believes you have to work [i:07aac46407]HARD [/i:07aac46407]and have discipline to go from being a child of God, to being a God in fact. Impact and The Secret may say the latter is a reason to stay away, I say it is the reason to stay.

If God bestowed upon us our Godhood already as TIT says, why are we all still bumbling buttholes to each other? If God did that already, it really is a difference that doesn't mean anything. Evil gods and evil people are essentially identical. And if you [i:07aac46407]are [/i:07aac46407]a TIT God, try to make a life or create a world. WAIT, before you do, you can't use anything God made to do it with. He created everything, so you must too. Scientists can't play God and neither can you. We are merely kids playing with the legos God made for us. Also, those staffs that TIT members have. If they are to use Christ’s teachings as a basis for making and using them, they should also follow the instruction Jesus gave to the Apostles as his justification for making them, so they should quit their jobs and give away all of their possessions, for the staff should be all that you require to sustain yourself. There is nothing analogous between the TIT and Apostolic staves.

Hopeful Soul, I apologize if any of my reply was offensive to you, I merely wished to talk to you directly to ascertain where you were coming from.

Looking at one's results as a basis for judging character can be deceptive, because people and their results can lie. Simply because there are always hidden results and motives we are not necessarily aware of, and without the whole picture, how can one judge another? It also relies on ones ability to observe, and God definitely did not equally distribute aptitude for that gift. Besides, most of us color [i:07aac46407]what[/i:07aac46407] we see by what we [i:07aac46407]want[/i:07aac46407] to see. It is why people stay in these LGAT's. They are unaware of all of what is going on. Those who are don't go.

So, now I’m off my soapbox.

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exImpact
And if you [i:507783d111]are [/i:507783d111]a TIT God, try to make a life or create a world. WAIT, before you do, you can't use anything God made to do it with. He created everything, so you must too. Scientists can't play God and neither can you. We are merely kids playing with the legos God made for us.

I want to strike this statement for those who understand the nature of the LDS God to be a contingient one. Well, that is a book to explain, so if you know what I am saying by "contingient" then you understand why the above may not apply. :)

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exImpact
If God bestowed upon us our Godhood already as TIT says, why are we all still bumbling buttholes to each other?

We are merely kids playing with the legos God made for us.

You crack me up when you get on a roll. Your honest expression is sooo refreshing. :lol:

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exImpact
Looking at one's results as a basis for judging character can be deceptive, because people and their results can lie. Simply because there are always hidden results and motives we are not necessarily aware of, and without the whole picture, how can one judge another? It also relies on ones ability to observe, and God definitely did not equally distribute aptitude for that gift. Besides, most of us color [i:ec819ba828]what[/i:ec819ba828] we see by what we [i:ec819ba828]want[/i:ec819ba828] to see. It is why people stay in these LGAT's. They are unaware of all of what is going on. Those who are don't go.

I think that is why this board is so important. The LGAT has a motive for deceiving - money and perhaps power. The people here aren't trying to sell anything and are not forming their own competing group. Having this information on the internet is one way people considering an LGAT can hear about your results.

It is also important to be aware of what we want to see, what we want to be true, and how that might prevent us from seeing reality.

Of course once you are subjected to coercive persuasion, reality testing goes out the window, at least for a while. But maybe the information here helps to plant some seeds of doubt and help people get out sooner.

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question lady
I think that is why this board is so important. The LGAT has a motive for deceiving - money and perhaps power. The people here aren't trying to sell anything and are not forming their own competing group. Having this information on the internet is one way people considering an LGAT can hear about your results.

It is also important to be aware of what we want to see, what we want to be true, and how that might prevent us from seeing reality.

Of course once you are subjected to coercive persuasion, reality testing goes out the window, at least for a while. But maybe the information here helps to plant some seeds of doubt and help people get out sooner.

I can't think of any other way this could have been said. Quite true, all of it. I don't think there is a maybe about it. This is the reason, I am sure, Mr. Ross intended for not only this board, but his life's work. The profound benefit of it all is not lost on me :)

Ex, I was wondering if LGAT's are a big problem for LDS people or do they pose the same attraction for Baptists, Catholics, Jews, Lutherans and all the other religions. Has there been some study about that?

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Hopeful Soul
My impression of exImpact is that we have both been sucked into the vortex of the Impact tornado; I fortunately fell out at a fairly low altitude; exImpact was tossed out of the top of the thunderstorm.

Hopeful, while this may be true it seems like ex landed much more softly despite the higher altitude. I have a hard time reading your posts because they are steeped in Impactese and general LGAT dogma. Also, like ex said, your use of the LDS faith to explain your experience seems to border on fanaticism. The purpose of this forum is to discuss/debate/debunk the Impact trainings and provide a source for others to find information that will allow them to make intelligent and educated decisions. In addition, I think we are genuinely able to experience a kind of recovery by "getting everything off our chests".

You seem genuinely hurt and seeking answers. Like ex, I too am genuinely concerned about your mental and emotional health. Your posts strike me as someone who is still trapped in the LGAT box, not someone who is on a path to recovery. I have seen some people be so completely sucked into the Impact mindset that they are no longer capable of distinguishing reality from fantasy. I believe that there can still be a recovery for these people but it requires more than just a separation from the LGAT.

You mentioned that you had spoken to some mental health professionals, what was the consensus? Did you develop a plan for recovery? I don't expect answers to these questions because I realize that this is all very personal. If you are so wrapped up in Impact crap that you can't change the way you speak, then you have some serious problems. The first tool that Impact uses to manipulate the trainees is the change in language. Why are you stuck using Impactspeak? This tendency seems to represent a very serious cognitive, intellectual or emotional problem. By all means find out what this problem is and develop a plan to correct it!

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Philips
Ex, I was wondering if LGAT's are a big problem for LDS people or do they pose the same attraction for Baptists, Catholics, Jews, Lutherans and all the other religions. Has there been some study about that?

LGAT's are a big problem for ALL people. The TIT program at Impact is quite unique in that it is literally a religious cult. Most LGAT's don't cross that line, but Impact hurdles over it. I make a fuss about TIT and the LDS faith because so many people that belong to this cult are also practicing Mormons, and the training uses a theology that is definitely LDS in origin and some of the doctrine is similar in meaning, albeit is radically modified. That is why Mormons can find it so easy to "rationalize" themselves into it. I just find this extreme example of delusional behavior fascinating and sad, so I talk about it quite a bit. That doesn’t necessarily imply that I think Impact isn’t equally harmful to [i:03cbeee9cf]everyone[/i:03cbeee9cf] who wants in. The TIT doctrines also contradict the Catholic and Protestant theories of divine grace. I’d have to do more study concerning Judaism, but I am pretty sure it’s against their religion to stick your head up your ass like a schlemiel and do one of these fakakta trainings!

LGAT Reformation?

I found an interesting article at [perso.orange.fr]
entitled “Can an LGAT Change?” It’s by Chris Mathe. I Googled on “history LGAT origin.” If I made a typo, just Google on “awareness page” and look at the feature article by Chris Mathe. I visited this Website many months ago when looking for answers about LGAT’s. I would have remembered the article if it had been there then. I remain skeptical about this, but it does talk about most of the dangerous aspects of LGATs, all of which they claim to have eliminated. They talk about training groups with a maximum of 16 trainees and an average of 9. There are two blocks, a three day and a five day. I would not dare to post it here because of space, but it is a good read if you have not seen it.

Again, thanks for feedback. I’m sure that my mind has been trifled with. I’m pondering just how to determine the full extent. The professional I talked to initially looked at the Impact literature and said that the Ropes Course may have some value. The therapist diminished all the rest. The advice was to ask the question, What is their overhead?, in determining if it was fairly priced. If I use anymore Impactspeak I will put it in italics, lest it affect honest and well meaning feedback. I’m around committed Impact folks a lot. They still see not the slightest harm in it.

(The Website address and italics did not carry over in pasting like I had hoped it seems).

Hopeful,

That was an interesting article. I thought it was funny that people would spend so much time attempting to make the LGAT model more effective by making small changes. That seems equivalent to putting a tuxedo on a monkey. Do people exist to serve the LGAT or is it the other way around? If the model isn't effective (and the LGAT model has some glaring weaknesses) then why not just throw it out?

Can any good come from an LGAT like the Impact Trainings? I guess it depends which side of the scam you are on...

Many of the largest and most profound weaknesses in the LGAT model tend to exist in the structure of the model itself. I think some of the changes may improve the model but I still wonder if there are any changes that could really make an LGAT an effective form of therapy.

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You say your "breaking free" is recent, and I am glad for your new realizations, but also know that to not be willing to introspect (with a professional if possible) on the possible damages you have been heretofore unaware of could be self-defeating. I am not saying this is necessarily the case, I am saying it is possible, and perhaps likely. Looking back, I cannot see anyone looking fondly upon the feedback processes without having succumbed to the conditioning and trauma that always precedes and follows them. I am not trying to get you to box at shadows, I am merely concerned. But also elated for your personal discoveries and progress.

Eximpact,

Thank you. I really appreciated your sensitivity and comments.


Everyone on the board,

I would like to see a professional, but I am so overwhelmed at the idea of trying to explain all of this. I am also a little concerned that some random counselor might not see the seriousness of the situation or that because of the mental conditioning, I might explain it all in a way that doesn't seem that bad.

I wanted to ask if anyone has advice or recommendations as I search for a professional to work with.

Thanks,
Disenchanted