Posted // October 13,2011 -
Eight arguments against the LDS Church being labeled as a “cult”:

8. Cults tend to operate out of sight; LDS temples will soon outnumber Starbucks.

7. Cults use mind-control techniques that are subtle and sophisticated, two approaches foreign to KSL and the Deseret News.

6. Cults sing songs like “Don’t Fear the Reaper” between buffets in Wendover (Blue Öyster Cults only).

5. Cults separate you from relatives; Mormons force members to hang out with their families.

4. Cults demand excessive financial donations; the LDS Church only asks for 10 percent … forever.

3. Cults are difficult to leave alive; annoying ex-Mormons are everywhere.

2. Cults adhere to strict, uniform dress codes; LDS standards range all the way from modest to Old Navy.

1. Cults have charismatic, dynamic leaders.

Twitter: @Bill_Frost | BillFrost.tv



The above item was posted yesterday on this forum"s Headlines. It is taken from Cityweekly. There is a bit of truth and surely a lot of good humor here, too much to pass up for readers of this thread who might have missed it.

[www.i4m.com]

Twenty Steps of Indoctrination in Destructive Cults


Here's an interesting primer on cults that you can find in a book on advertising. The author of "Coercion: Why We Listen to What 'They' Say" describes religious cults as powerful pyramid schemes.

Author Douglas Rushkoff lists 20 common steps of indoctrination in destructive cults. His steps are quoted in italics with my comments included below each step.

1. The Goal
Every cult has a stated, vague and metaphorical goal. Because this goal must serve as the "illuminated eye" of the pyramid, it cannot be attainable. Rather, it is expressed as an abstract idea - like "salvation" - which the cult members will enjoy once they have made it to the top of the pyramid.

So what is the ultimate goal for Mormons? Nothing less than Godhood, not salvation. Mormons don't talk about salvation as the ultimate goal. They talk about "Exaltation" and "having all that God has," becoming "priests and kings" and having "kingdoms, thrones, principalities, powers, dominions and exaltations."

The top of the Celestial Kingdom is the goal for Mormons. Yet very little is known about it. And it's certainly impossible to attain and experience that goal in this life. Best case scenario is you die and go the Celestial Kingdom, but it's not something that exists or can be reached during this life.

2. A Charismatic Leader
All cults - whether spiritual or mundane - have a charismatic figurehead. The leader must be someone whose speech, manner and energy exert inexplicable influence. In religious cults, the leader attains his divine status in one of two ways. The first is by claiming to be the hand-picked successor to the last guru. The second is by claiming to embody an entirely new spiritual force - either to have been born sacred or to have suffered an "awakening" trauma or a sudden "new breeze" of insight.

Most True Believing Mormons find the General Authorities to be very Charismatic. They are celebrities and almost worshiped wherever they go among the membership. Even Gordon B. Hinckley is charismatic enough to woo over Mike Wallace from 60 Minutes, who was so impressed with Hinckley he called him "charismatic."

For Mormons, the last guru before Mormonism was Jesus Christ. Smith claimed to be picked by Jesus Christ and God the Father to restore the only true church. He claimed they personally came to him in a grove of trees and started off his prophetic ministry. Every church president since then has also claimed that Joseph Smith was the hand-picked successor to Jesus Christ to restore His gospel in this "dispensation." Only Joseph Smith had the divine mandate to translate and restore the gospel due to his personal calling by God Himself. You can't claim more authority than that.

3. Sacred Doctrine
Most cults have a sacred text or doctrine. Often a cult will adopt an established text, like the Bible or the Koran. Others use a spontaneously revealed doctrine. These are usually "channeled" or transcribed.

Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, Ensign, General Conference Talks, etc..

4. Divine Coincidence
New members must learn of the cult as if by grace. If the members believe they came to the cult through conscious or rational process, then they are in a position to take responsibility and credit for their participation. Cults try to avoid this perception because members should be separated from their sense of willpower in order to be fully indoctrinated.

Most converts see their discovery of the church as a divine coincidence of some kind. Missionaries thrive on stories of divine intervention and every convert has that as part of their story of joining the church.

But I think this goes even deeper than that. Instead of following a rational process, converts follow the irrational instructions of the "Moroni Promise" in the Book of Mormon. Missionaries tell people to join the church because of how they feel when they pray about the Book of Mormon, not because Mormonism makes logical sense.

True spiritual converts to the church do experience divine coincidence either in how they met the missionaries or how they felt their answer to the "Moroni Promise."

5. Positive Results Through Commitment
While discovery and introduction are almost always free, the newcomer is told that he will experience satisfaction only when he has made a financial or equivalent commitment. At sales meetings for another of the cults I investigated, writing a check was equated with the first step toward changing one's life, and new members reported feeling results the moment they made this commitment.

For Mormons, this commitment is primarily expressed in tithing. Tithing is affectionately known as "fire insurance" in the Mormon Church and the Bishop does not see you as a member in good standing if you are not a full tithe payer. Those who do not pay tithing are second-class members that are not given leadership callings, cannot perform church ordinances or attend the temple (endowments or family weddings). Most True Believing Mormons think something bad will happen to them if they stop paying tithing and superstitiously attribute good luck experiences to their paying of tithing. What follows are temple recommend cards which for many believing Mormons is a symbol of their worthiness and self-esteem.

6. Extraordinary Measures
Once new members have made their initial surrender or contribution to the cult, they are asked to do something that contradicts their judgement. What's important is that the act goes against the new members' own internal sense of appropriateness. The members must get used to acting against their own values.

The big examples of this are found in the temple. Everything from garments, naked touching and secret handshakes go against what most people would consider extraordinary. The full-time missionary experience is also full of required behavior that goes against the many people's internal sense of appropriateness. One of the hallmarks of all destructive cults is their bizzare rites of passage, which Mormonism has in spades.

7. Member Complicity
Once an extraordinary measure is taken, the members are rewarded with complicity in the greater pyramid. To get out of the cult after this act of complicity, a member will have to own up to all of the cult's practices as if they were his/her own.

This goes back to what happens to people in the temple. After accepting garments for life, being touched while naked, making loyalty oaths and learning secret handshakes, members are then rewarded with inclusion into the temple club and the privileges that includes. Being a temple card-carrying member is a huge sign of complicity.

Apart from the temple, church leadership positions also work this way.

8. A Cycle of Breaking "Self"
After extracting extraordinary measures and complicity, the cult exploits the commonly practiced spiritual discipline of self-denial and demands increasingly difficult acts of faith from its followers. Sometimes these requests seem to benefit the cult - members are instructed to donate huge sums of money or contribute tremendous time and labor to the cult. Just as often, however, these requests will be completely arbitrary or even against the interests of the cult. By interspersing real requests with these random and bizarre instructions, the cult can avoid the appearance of self-interest. It can also paralyze the followers' ability to second-guess cult actions.

Look at this from the convert's perspective. Most don't know about all of the responsibilities and duties of membership before they join the church. For many it is a shock to learn how much time the church really demands of them, from church meetings, home teaching, genealogy work, missionary service etc...

To people who weren't born in the church, Mormonism is very demanding of time and restrictive on behavior. And it gets worse the longer you strive to be a "Faithful Mormon."

Compared to 19th-century Mormons, the church demands less. But compared to a normal life, the church demands more of people and it only gets worse as you climb the church hierarchy, just like other destructive cults.

9. Confusion and Transference
By alternating self-interested and random demands, the cult brings its followers into a state of great confusion - they aren't sure how to please the cult. Sometime leaders will reward members who fail to carry out commands, and punish those who complete them successfully. The CIA suggests using rewards and punishments in a random, illogical manner so that the subjects regress into a childlike dependence. Similarly, the confused cult member will eventually regress to a childlike state and transfers parental authority to the cult leaders - which is why so many cult leaders insist on being called "Mother" or "Father."

Confusion and Transference is all about reducing people to childlike dependence on the church through confusion. Nowhere is this more obvious than in the Mormon obsession with "following the spirit" which leads to all kinds of personal confusion. Look at the people in the church you know are doing their damndest to follow the spirit and you'll see they are adults in the most childlike mentality.

Titles like "President," "Bishop," and "Apostle" all imply these people are authority figures that should be obeyed. True Believing Mormons accept that people with these titles are more "in tune with the spirit" and in a state of personal confusion will cling to their leadership. To true believers, the Bishop is the "Father" of the ward and deserves the same respect and obedience as if he were your father - despite the fact that the Bishop is really just a lay member without any real education or extra wisdom. The whole church system is demeaning to adults and reduces the faithful to dependence, not independence.

10. Prescriptive Behavior
Like any victim of induced regression and transference, once their ability to make decisions have been suspended, the cult members look to their leaders for guidance on how to behave. They long for direction on what to think, do an believe.

Why does the church have Sunday School, Priesthood instruction, General Conference, Stake Conference, Leadership training, Patriarchal Blessings, Seminary, Institute, Scriptures, Magazines etc.. if not for dishing out instructions on how members should think, do and believe?

The Mormon Church is about 90% instructions on behavior and beliefs. The other 10% is testimony bearing, which is modeling of correct thinking and behavior.

In what church lesson or speech are they not telling you overtly or covertly how to think, act and/or believe? That's what Mormonism is all about! It's not about "finding your own way" or "discovering your true self." It's about obedience. All good Mormons know that obedience is the first law of heaven.

11. The Goal of Inclusion
Once transference has been achieved, the elusive stated goal of the pyramid cult is replaced with the much more tangible one of establishing a relationship with the cult leaders and acceptance in the cult. The cult members become, in effect, siblings competing for their parent's approval. The result is a prolonged psychodrama that capitalizes on unresolved issues from the members' own family backgrounds. The cult leaders orchestrate emotional battles, pitting members against one another as they seek to develop a "special relationship" with the leaders.

Because Mormons are reduced to a childlike state, they become obsessed with acceptance and its evil counterparts, judging and gossip. Mormons are obsessed with acceptance and being defined by the group. One way to gain acceptance in the group is through unquestioned loyalty and obedience. Other ways include putting up an elaborate façade of perfection - the Mormon image. Another is to gossip and put down others because this makes you feel better about yourself (temporarily).

Anyone who's spent any real time with Mormons recognizes that this is a real problem in Mormonism. But the people aren't really to blame, because it's the Mormon system that brings this out in people. The cult is designed to make people behave like this because it keeps the members off balance and the leadership in control, just as Joseph Smith intended.

12. Never Expose Uncertainty to Those Lower in the Pyramid
By the time a member is this far into a cult, he/she is required to preserve the illusion of its cohesion and perfection.

Since a member's sense of status and nearness to the leaders are directly related to how many people are beneath him/her in the cult hierarchy, he/she must always make an effort to recruit more members. The need to subscribe newcomers outweighs whatever benefits the products or cult system might offer. Cult members seek new recruits to raise their own positions in the hierarchy. The power of networking - social, economic, and technological - is exploited by people who offer little more than the promise of complicity in the scheme itself. The elusive eye atop the pyramid remains as elusive as ever.

Members' statures are directly related to their ability to maintain the appearance of steadfast devotion to the cult. They cannot reveal any lingering doubts about the divinity of the leader lest they lose their own places in the hierarchy to more ardent followers beneath them. Furthermore, expressing doubt to a new member is seen as an act of heresy. In fact, a cult member's very position in the pyramid is defined by his ability to quell the doubts of those beneath him, without being thrown into doubt himself.

Uncertainty here is defined as uncertainty in the authority claims of the cult leadership. When has any church leader ever said he wasn't sure if Joseph Smith was a prophet, or if the Book of Abraham were true? Leaders never express doubts about the church's claims of truth and authority.

At the same time, there's no threat to the cult if the leaders say the members are screwed up, are not obeying the commandments or are full of pride. In fact, these kinds of statements just substantiate the leader's authority even more.

13. Never Expose Uncertainty to Those Higher in the Pyramid
Eventually, any expression of doubt at all is deemed offense against the cult. To spread one's misgivings to a higher member is, in effect, a challenge to that member's own resolve. Such expressions can be allowed up to a point, but ultimately the members must learn that they are the source of their won doubts and must overcome crisis without spreading confusion to others. Confessing one's misgivings to a higher member merely affirms the latter's superior status in the pyramid. If one is to move up, he/she must show less doubt and more commitment that those above him/her.

If you tell your Bishop or Stake President that you don't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, then you can kiss your temple recommend goodbye. As an institution - not just a culture - Mormonism punishes doubt and disbelief in its truth and authority claims.

Honest, sincere questioning will not earn you any points or blessings in Mormonism - with the Bishop, with the members or with your own family. It's systemic, not cultural and follows the pattern of Mormonism being a destructive cult right up there with the Jehova Witnesses and Scientology.

14. The Cult Precludes All Other Commitments
One by one, each member's connection with the real world must be reinterpreted as base "attachments" that need to be limited or purged. The member's original religion, job, friends, spouse and children are less important that his relationship with the cult and its leaders. The members must not gain positive reinforcement from anything or anyone outside of the cult. Family and social bonds are reinterpreted as distractions from the higher values the member is adopting. All real-world associating, inevitably and by design, come into conflict with one's commitment to the higher goal.

This is true for many members of the church, especially those serving full-time missions and local leaders who feel they can't turn down a calling.

One of the great lies of Mormonism is that it is extraordinarily "family friendly." Most Mormons buy into this myth because the church stresses that image so much. But there is little substance behind it.

One of the main purposes of Mormonism is to make families into mini-cults that reinforce the larger cult's objectives of control. But are Mormon families really that much healthier than families outside of the church?

Does the church really support the family in its needs, or does it simply enforce its own will on families?

The answers to these questions can be found in the real-world practices of Mormonism, not the rhetoric.

Look what the church does when one family member is not following the church dogma. Does the church help the family or add stress?

Do families have more or less time together after they join the church?

Do families have more or less money for family needs after they join the church?

Do families truly accept one another more or less after they join the church?

Do families show more or less tolerance for non-member family members after they join the church?

Do children accept a non-member parent more or less after joining the church?

Is there more or less respect/appreciation for female members of a family after they join the church?

Are families more or less worried about what the neighbors think after they join the church?

An honest look at Mormonism in practice reveals that families are better off without Mormonism. That is of course, unless you've bought into the carrot of the "Celestial Kingdom" dangling in front of you. Then you're willing to sacrifice family time, money and love in order to reach the unattainable goal of the cult.

15. Never Refuse a Request
A member may never refuse a request made by a cult leader, or in the name of the cult. To do so is to place some other value ahead of the sanctity of the group.

Members can refuse church callings, but it's frowned upon and that's no way to get ahead in the cult. In non-cult churches people recognize that the church is a voluntary organization and there are no serious ramifications if you turn down a request.

But in the Mormon cult, it's not volunteer work but "callings from the Lord" and tremendous pressure is brought to bear on people to accept "callings" to work. If you don't believe this, then ask nineteen-year-old males in the church if they feel pressure to serve missions. Ask the twenty-year-olds that didn't go if they feel second-class for not going. Mormons are conditioned to accept callings despite their better judgements.

16. All Requests Can Be Challenged
A cult member who has made an inappropriately personal or self-interested request in the name of the cult will be challenged. On the other hand, members who are in the leader's favor can get away with almost anything of those beneath them.

Real churches have moral and ethical obligations to their members. But if you're in a church that doesn't teach or enforce what the church owes the members, then you're probably in a destructive cult. In Mormonism, the church doesn't owe the members anything - not even financial disclosures or honest history.

17. Never Take Action in the Cult Leaders' Names
The cult leaders are free from all responsibility. To make a request in the cult leader's name is to blame the cult leader for any ill will that might result. To claim, for example, that "I divorced my wife because the leader told me to" is to refuse responsibility for one's own actions. Although a cult leader may have "shown the way," a member divorces his wife or disowns his children because it's the "right thing to do." To use the leader as an excuse is just another way to express doubt.

When have church leaders ever stood up and accepted responsibility for their poor counsel, false prophecies or financial incompetence?

If the church isn't working for people, the church teaches that it's the members' fault, never the leadership. Mormons held the common belief that "the church is perfect, but the members aren't." In other words, the system is perfect and never to blame. If the Bishop tells you to get divorced and things go sour, it's not the Bishop's fault, now is it?

18. Act Automatically
Members must strive to act in accordance with the cult leaders' wishes without thinking. The conditioning, confusion, and fear to which the members are subjected result in a set of new behaviors that take the place of what normally might be called intuition or instinct. Once achieved, this automatic behavior is a welcome relief from the constant questioning of one's own actions.

Choose the right! Follow the Prophet! Just Do it! Obedience is the first law of Heaven! Isn't that what Mormons are taught?

Are there any church lessons on real critical thinking?

19. Witness and Accept the Leaders' Faults
Once they reach the highest levels of the cult pyramid, members are privy to their leaders' darkest actions. Members must also come to terms with the abusive behavior of their leaders.

Mormon missionaries also experience this cult phenomena first hand. True Believing Missionaries in the field think their assignments are inspired and the Mission President is a prophet. Those who end up working in the office learn the President has a dark side that is petty, arbitrary and cruel. Yet those exposed to this still propagate the myth that the President is divinely-inspired leader. This is also common in ward and stake leadership.

20. The Cult Leaders Are Perfection
The final stage of cult indoctrination is to accept the leaders as the perfect center of the universe, from which all else derives. The "fully evolved" cult member thus understands all the pain and suffering as resistance to the cult leaders' divinity. The leader is the single point of entry for God and perfection in the otherwise imperfect universe.

Once cult leaders have achieved such a stature in his followers' minds, the leader can ask them to do anything, even to kill themselves. They already have been trained to go against their own instincts. Thwarting one's natural tendency toward self-preservation becomes a pleasurable, almost fetishistic obsession. As members look for more outrageous ways to break their own attachment to life, suicide emerges as the ultimate act of devotion.

This is the one aspect of destructive cults that does not currently exist in Mormon practice. Nor do I think that current Mormon Church leaders have reached this status in the minds of believing members. What Mormon would commit suicide solely on the order of the Bishop, Stake President or Prophet?

Granted, the dogma still exists in the temple endowment when members covenant to "sacrifice all that [they] possess, even [their] own lives if necessary, in sustaining and defending the Kingdom of God." But this little clause in the endowment is not currently exercised by church leaders.

Today, the Mormon Church enjoys the benefits of the first nineteen indoctrination steps of a destructive cult. If it ever needs to resort to indoctrination step number twenty, it's certainly not out of reach.

Although i appreciate the insight corboy has provided in his post is there a way we could keep this thread dedicated to Impact? I think we would all agree it's long enough as it is.

The last posting by carboy is in a real sense contected to IMPACT TRAININGS. You cannot talk about cults, LGATs, and Mormons without recognizing the connection geographically and culturally in the valley of the Great Salt Lake. IMPACT, along with its fellow LGATs are nowhere more denounced officially than by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons). The current political climate has two prominant Mormons in the presidential race, with one of them likely to be the GOP nominee. The accusation that Mormons are cultist does not seem to get much traction any more in the news media. I find that encouraging.

This forum has rules. If the moderator sees a conflict with the rules in the last posting by carboy, it is appropriate to deleat the portion that is an anti-Mormon diatribe. I find the statements about touching while naked in the temple to be in error, unless you call placing hands on one's head or forehead "touching while naked." This happens when only the head is "naked," and that is an important fact not mentioned by carboy.

hopefulsoul-

If you read back, i think it was you that posted the information about cults and Mormons to begin with. I also think that the point about the connection between Mormon's and Impact has been hit hard enough that people get the point.

On another note, just because Pres. Hinckley decided to change the temple ritual so that people didn't have to participate in touching while naked doesn't mean that people should be naive to the fact that it ever happened. The history of the church and their practices is an important consideration to make.

What was quoted was information from a website for former LDS.

Here is some more info on this fraught subject. I am quoting what others have said. Some report that this has changed since 2005.

SInce this is the social context behind IMPACT trainings, it is worth looking at. The amount of clothing we are taught to wear and consider normal marks an important boundary.

If we are taught all our lives to dress modestly and then must go through a ritual of intiating that requires removal of most of ones clothing,even if one is not completely naked, that is going to have a big impact.

The impact would be different if one had grown up non LDS, wearing mini skirts, low cut jeans and feeling free to wear a bikini or Speedos at the beach.

From an ex mormon website

[www.exmormon.org]

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Naked touching in the Mormon Temple. Is it for real?
Note: The Mormon Temple Endowment changed again in Jan 2005. The naked touching discussed below was removed from the ceremony. See Mormon386 Read below what it was like to experience the touching in the initiatory phase of the Mormon temple endowment.

Subject: Naked touching in the Mormon Temple. Is it for real?
Date: Aug 20 14:08 2004
Author: igno

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I have just read on the deconstructor website about the act of naked touching in the temple.

Is this really done? or just an exaggeration of something else.

Never been to the temple I'm quite ignorant.
Note: The Actual Ordinance (words only) for washing and anointing is found here on this thread


Subject: Washing and Anointing
Date: Aug 20 14:36
Author: Tyson Dunn

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Deconstructor's site is accurate.

The first thing you go through when receiving your endowment for the first time is the washing and anointing. You strip naked and are given what is called a "shield" to wear. It's a big white oval of fabric, worn like a poncho, but open at the sides. It is true that you're not 100% naked, but I think that the difference is splitting hairs. (If you don't believe me, run out into the street with nothing one but a blanket over your head and see if they don't try to charge you with indecent exposure.)

The washing and anointing both consist of various parts of the body being touched by the fingertips of the temple worker performing the ordinance. They use a drop of water or oil on their fingertips, hence washing and anointing. They say a sort of prayer for the good health and function of each of the involved body parts. Unlike other priesthood ordinances, men wash and anoint men and women wash and anoint women.

The parts of the body include the head, each ear, the eyes (I think it was across the brow), nose (bridge), lips, neck (nape), shoulders, back, breast (center of chest if I remember right), arms and hands (touch in one motion along length of each arm), vitals and bowels (point on the side, I think), loins, legs and feet (touch in one motion along length of each leg). The loins are supposed to be done by touching the side of the person parallel to their genitals, but more than one man has reported that perverted temple workers directly rubbed down the front of their penises. They seem to try to get away with it more with first-time missionaries who are young and don't know better.

[Incidentally, I may have forgotten one or more parts.]

The ordinance is performed in a cubicle divided in quarters by sheet-like fabric covering the washing and anointing "rooms". Each space is barely large enough for two people. The first section is an anteroom, the second for washing, the third for anointing, the fourth for being clothed in the temple garments (underwear). In the last one, they have you step into a one-piece temple underwear garment.

Tyson

Subject: OMG! I did block that out. ......
Date: Aug 20 14:47
Author: Rationalis

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Now I remember that shield. Somehow I had gotten to thinking that I was in my garments during the endowments but you are right.
Why did I block that out? Was I traumatized??
It has been about 25 years since I got my endowments.
After that I only did the movie and secret hand shakes thingy when I would go through the temple. I haven't even done that for maybe 20 years.
Don't think I ever did baptisms for the dead.

Subject: For the rest of the ceremony, you *are* fully clothed
Date: Aug 20 14:52
Author: Tyson Dunn

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After the washing and anointing, you put on white clothes (sometimes a white jumpsuit thing for the guys) and pass through another cubicle where they give you a new name.

After that the endowment part of the ceremony, i.e., the movie (or live play), the signs, the tokens (handshakes), and going through the veil are all done in white clothes, and you add hats/bonnets, robes, sashes, and aprons over the course of the ceremony.

All in all, cultish and bizarre.

Tyson

Subject: I have no problem remembering the funny clothes and the tokens and stuff since I did that many times. ......and
Date: Aug 20 15:03
Author: Rationalis

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And yes it struck me as cultish right away. I told my parents what I thought and made my mother cry. But I was already committed to go to Japan on a mission so I just suppressed my feeling about the temple.

Subject: Tyson, it was because of those cubicles divided
Date: Aug 20 18:41
Author: Helen

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by sheet-like fabric that I discovered everyone gets the same new name.

Tyson Dunn wrote:
> The ordinance is performed in a cubicle divided in quarters by sheet-like fabric covering the washing and anointing "rooms".

Subject:
Date: Aug 20 23:27
Author: Daisy1

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This is one of the things they DON'T tell you about in the "temple prep" class that you really ought to know about ahead of time.

Maybe they are afraid of scaring people. It shocked me silly!

Subject: Re: They touch...
Date: Aug 20 14:14
Author: SD

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your bare lower back with their fingers during the anointing after putting you into a loose fitting robe. Then they help you into your garments. It's very creepy, particularly for an initiated 19 year-old like I was.

Subject: Think of putting on a white poncho naked
Date: Aug 20 14:18
Author: Sperco

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That's what it's like. They call the poncho a "shield" and the sides are open, so it just covers your front and back. While you are wearing this, they "anoint" you with water and olive oil on various spots on your body.

It is extremely creepy

Subject: Re: Nakedtouching?
Date: Aug 20 14:20
Author: igno

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Thanks SD that helps clarify things. However creepy it was I was actually imagining a lot worse.

Subject: Worse?!?!? Worse than a 90-yr old man touching me just above my pe**is? n/t
Subject: Thanks for the horrid flash back.... now I must find my happy place n/t


Subject: HOLY SH*T! No wonder I was in therapy for years!
Date: Aug 21 01:30
Author: Empowered

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I'm with you, Saucie!!! "Find a happy place...find a happy place!"

I am definitely copying this so my daughter can read it if she ever decides to go to the temple. Reading this just now seriously made my stomach turn. I CANNOT BELIEVE I bought into this! Actually...I had repressed the memories of the W & A (along with the childhood sex abuse, which is probably why the W & A freaked me out so bad)...and I NEVER did them again! Now I know why!!!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! Psycho satanic cult!

Subject: Ya, Empowered save it for your daughter !!!
Date: Aug 21 22:00
Author: Saucie

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I'm so embarrassed that I actually gave that little episode in the temple any credence whatsoever. WTF??? The whole
thing is insane !!!!!


Subject: Darn it to heck, I thought this thread would be a good one
Date: Aug 20 17:26
Author: activejackmormon

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but now I find out "naked touching" is about the temple. Talk about a drop in hormones. Talk about getting the willies. I had put out of my mind that silly, cultish ceremony. Thanks for bringing it all back for me.

Subject: INITIATORY ORDINANCES
Date: Aug 20 17:33
Author: Anon

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INITIATORY ORDINANCES
(PRELIMINARY TO THE ENDOWMENT)


After showing his Temple Recommend to a worker stationed near the entrance inside the building, the patron repairs to the men’s dressing area, where he is assigned a private locker (dividers and a door ensure privacy). After disrobing he covers himself with a "Shield"—a white poncho-like linen covering with a hole in the top for his head and open sides (held shut while walking). Covered in the Shield, he carries one pair of Temple Garments (one-piece style) to the Washing and Anointing area, and waits on a bench until directed by a temple worker to enter one of the Washing and Anointing booths through a veiled partition. The booths are simply small cubicles made up of suspended lined veils.
When called for, the initiate enters the booth and hands his Garments to a worker who places them on a towel rod. As the initiate stands upright in his Shield the temple worker wets his fingers under s small faucet of running water in the booth, and lightly touches each area of the initiate’s body through the open sides of the Shield.


WASHING


Brother _______, having authority, I wash you preparatory to you receiving your anointings [for and in behalf of _______ (patron and then temple worker read name of deceased), who is dead], that you may become clean from the blood and sins of this generation. I wash your head, that your brain and your intellect may be clear and active; your ears, that you may hear the word of the Lord; your eyes, that you may see clearly and discern between truth and error; your nose, that you may smell; your lips, that you may never speak guile; your neck, that it may bear up your head properly; your shoulders, that they may bear the burdens that shall be placed thereon; your back, that there may be marrow in the bones and in the spine; your breast, that it may be the receptacle of pure and virtuous principles; your vitals and bowels, that they may be healthy and strong and perform their proper functions; your arms and hands, that they may be strong and wield the sword of justice in defense of truth and virtue; your loins, that you may be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth, that you might have joy and rejoicing in your posterity; your legs and feet, that you might run and not be weary, and walk and not faint.

(Females undergo a similar ritual, attended to by females, which includes the following, "Sister _______, having authority, I wash you preparatory to your receiving your anointings [for and in behalf of _______, who is dead], and whereas you have obeyed the principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ with a true and honest heart, and have been faithful in keeping your covenants, your sins are forgiven and you are clean every whit. I wash your head that your brain and your intellect may be clear and active in discerning between truth and error, and that you may be filled with the spirit of the Lord..." etc.)

Two temple workers then place their hands upon the patron’s head and one of them recites the Confirmation of the Washing.


CONFIRMATION OF THE WASHING


Brother _______, having authority, we lay our hands upon your head [for and in behalf of _______(patron and then temple worker read name of deceased), who is dead], and seal upon you this washing, that you may become clean from the blood and sins of this generation through your faithfulness, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

The patron then steps through a veiled partition into another part of the booth where he sits upon a chair. He is anointed with scented olive oil from a glass anointing horn. During the anointing, the body parts are lightly touched as they are mentioned, as was done in the washing.


ANOINTING


Brother _______, having authority, I pour this holy anointing oil upon your head [for and in behalf of _______ (patron and then temple worker read name of deceased), who is dead], and anoint you preparatory to your becoming a King and a Priest unto the Most High God, hereafter to rule and reign in the House of Israel forever. I anoint your head, that your brain and your intellect may be clear and active; your ears, that you may hear the word of the Lord; your eyes, that you may see clearly and discern between truth and error; your nose, that you may smell; your lips, that you may never speak guile; your neck, that it may bear up your head properly; your shoulders, that they may bear the burdens that shall be placed thereon; your back, that there may be marrow in the bones and in the spine; your breast, that it may be the receptacle of pure and virtuous principles; your vitals and bowels, that they may be healthy and strong and perform their proper functions; your arms and hands, that they may be strong and wield the sword of justice in defense of truth and virtue; your loins, that you may be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth, that you might have joy and rejoicing in your posterity; your legs and feet, that you might run and not be weary, and walk and not faint.

The Anointing is then confirmed, as was the Washing, by the two temple workers.


CONFIRMATION OF THE ANOINTING


Brother _______, having authority, we lay our hands upon your head [for and in behalf of _______ (patron and then temple worker read name of deceased), who is dead], and confirm upon you this anointing, wherewith you have been anointed in the temple of our God, preparatory to becoming a King and a Priest unto the Most High God, hereafter to rule and reign in the House of Israel forever, and seal upon you all the blessings hereunto appertaining, through your faithfulness, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

The patron now steps through a third veiled partition into another section of the booth. A temple worker takes the Garments off the towel rod and holds them open wide at the neck, for the patron to step into (right leg, left leg). It is then pulled up the sides of his body and he slips his right arm and left arms through the sleeves.


Subject: Results?
Date: Aug 20 20:55
Author: warshed

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I guess this part worked when it was done to me.....

"your eyes, that you may see clearly and discern between truth and error"

Maybe that's why I'm an exmo. I wonder if the temple workers know they are helping to create exmos?

Subject: Re: Results?
Date: Aug 21 06:47
Author: Freedom

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All this is really a big bunch of crapola...except, as you say, ...that your brain and your intellect may be clear and active;...your eyes, that you may see clearly and discern between truth and error.... and these are the 2 things that make the members understand the truth or lack of truth in this diabolical temple and Mormon Church. The world's great LIE, FRAUD!


Subject: What of the Red Tent?
Date: Aug 21 21:38
Author: Otremer

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Are menstruating women allowed into the Temple wearing pads or tampons under their shields, or are they considered "unclean" and forced to remain in the red tent?


Subject: When I first went to the temple..
Date: Aug 22 00:23
Author: resident of the Red Tent

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I was 14, and doing baptisms. I was on a youth temple trip and the YW were told that we should not participate if we were menstruating. I carried this w/ me into adulthood, until another sister (a convert, and more vocal and liberal) told me that it was fine to participate while on your period. I don't know what the official position is, and if the temple workers were speaking as the Lord's representatives or as women...

Subject: It is an evil cult.
Date: Aug 22 01:13
Author: MrJeff

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I've heard this before and it's still shocking to me that people would actually allow this, and not press charges.

I'm so glad I figured out it was all a scam before I had to do that. There is no way I could have stripped down and allowed them to touch me like that. I have a huge personal space bubble. I would have bolted for the door. Creeps me out just thinking about it. The only one I want to get naked touchy feely with is with a cute live-in girlfriend.. Not some old dude with roaming fingers and vegetable oil. That's just not right. They make all the adult members do this or they can't get into 'heaven'?

Subject: Naked Touching II: Old Men Gone Wild
Date: Aug 22 11:36
Author: Deconstructor

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The thread on "naked touching" in the temple reminded me of something I had completely forgotten. Tyson Dunn's excellent explanation of the initiatory ordinance triggered my memory:

While reading Dunn's post, I recalled an incident that occurred to one of the missionaries in the MTC in the Provo temple.

One morning the guys in my room all went to the Provo temple to do temple work. At the last minute, we decided to do initiatories instead of doing an endowment session.

Big mistake.

Instead of taking in an endowment session where we'd get to sit across the room from a bunch of veiled women, we spent two hours almost naked getting touched by old men.

And it gets worse!

It's weird enough going through the intiatory ordinance ONCE for your own endowment. But doing a two-hour initiatory session for the dead is borderline traumatic, especially for four young missionaries.

I got through it without much touching, despite going around and around from little cubicle to little cubicle with my little poncho-think constantly flapping open.

But when we completed the session, one of the Elders with us came out of there completely white. He had this shocked look on his face as if something bad had happened to him. He refused to tell us what was wrong and stayed very quiet the rest of the day.

A few days later he told me what happened. He said every time he went through the initiatory, one of the old men stroked his private parts with the oil. Strange, since this didn't happen to any of the rest of us, just him. He said he was so shocked and scared and he was in the temple, that he didn't know what to do. So he just let the old man keep doing it.

Maybe he was making it up, but he sure looked shook up. I've never heard anyone else have this experience in the temple, but there's no way any of us would have ever done an initiatory session again.

Subject: Just close your eyes, pretend ..... [more inside]
Date: Aug 22 12:13
Author: Langdon

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I still remember vividly the words he spoke to me (whispering to me tenderly that I was his first):

"Health in the navel;
Marrow in the bones;
Strength in the loins and in the sinews
Power in the Priesthood Be Upon Your Posterity..."



The initiatory ordinance needs to be described in exquisite detail in the pre-baptism missionary discussion:



"You must now pay us 10% of your income for the rest of your life, so that you can buy admission into the temple for the privilege of getting naked and having an old geezer touch your private parts with oil.

"See, it doesn't matter how moral you are, how completely virtuous you may be in word, thought, and deed, if you don't receive the holy Naked-Touching in the temple, as well as secret handshakes and passwords. No, these rituals override your personal worthiness, your character, your deeds.

"Paying us lots of money for a recommend so that you can obtain the sacred Naked-Touching is the ONLY way God will let you see him again. Swearing an oath to allow yourself to be gruesomely executed, while pantomiming your own gruesome death is the highest degree of the gospel taught by Jesus.

"John wasn't fully forthcoming when he said 'God is Love': God isn't just Love; God is Secret Passwords and Handshakes! The Gospel of Jesus Christ is that all mankind can return to live with God if they pay for the privilege of getting Naked-Touching!"


Somehow, I'm betting that most converts are not taught this "fullness" of the gospel.......

There ought to be a full-disclosure lawsuit in here somewhere for not being informed that your participation in the secret ritual would require you to submit to sexual harassment.

In the scientific research world, this kind of abuse would get slaughtered by an Institutional Review Board on the grounds of violation of standard requirements for Protection of Human Subjects.

Did any of you sign a waiver, or notice of full prior disclosure prior to attending your initiatory ordinance, explaining that you were advised you would have to get naked, and then AFTER you were already naked (and therefore, feeling entirely vulnerable), have a stranger touch your groin?

I know I didn't.

Subject: To the contrary: they promised me there was no nakedness
Date: Aug 22 13:02
Author: Nightingale

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Nor was it ever mentioned in Temple Prep classes.

Just another Mormon misnomer: Temple _Prep_ that doesn't QUITE prepare you for the violation of personal boundaries that will occur.

In fact, I was so unprepared for the temple that I took brand new white silk undies with me. The shivers hit when my "companion" (a new RM sis) said, "Oh, you aren't gonna need those - ever again". What the....??????


Subject: The Mormon Church has screwed it up again!!!
Date: Aug 22 12:49
Author: Otremer

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My cursory reading of the gospel tells me that our exemplar and Lord, Jesus the Christ, was not washed and anointed by some 'ol geezer in the Temple of Jerusalem, but instead had his washing and anointing performed by Mary the Magdalene, the apostle he was said to have loved more than the others and the one he is said to have kissed on the lips.

If the Mormon Church really wants to restore Jesus' Church, they need to require that initiates bring their beloveds into those little cubicles to perform the washings and anointings the way Jesus did. I bet this restoration of the TRUE gospel would increase the popularity of having one's head anointed with the "oil of gladness" and receiving one's endowed priesthood. Instead of pleading with members to attend the Temples, the Mormon Church would have problems keeping people away.

I'm sure Joseph Smith would have approved of performing the washings and anointings this way. It seems to be more in keeping with his style.


Added Jan. 2005

Subject: I want to hear from people who are "touched", if any! (Temple Initiation)
Date: Jan 20 08:01 2005
Author: Quinlansolo

However spooky and uncomfortable that process was there was not touching. In fact I called my ex wife, who also is inactive, she did not remember intrusion of that sort. I agree the whole process is whacko, uncomfortable and so invasive that you want to block it from your mind forever.
If any of you touched I would like to hear about it.


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Subject: I was totally touched.
Date: Jan 20 21:07
Author: WashingtonExmo

This is a joke?

I went through the temple for the first time several years ago. For my initiatory, I was told to strip naked put on the shield and walk into the initiatory room. Me and another guy (who was going through for the first time) sat on a cold stone bench trying to hold both sides of the shield closed--we were both pretty red-faced and uncomfortable. I have a "hey, dude" to him and we both stared at the floor.

My turn came up and I stepped into what was almost like a showere stall with curtains on all sides. This old guy came in and recited the script from the ordinance. The guy reached in and touched me really firmly with his finger about six inches above my penis on my front side. I think this was done twice (once with water and again with oil?). It has been awhile, but I was naked under a shield with open sides. I guy reached in and touched me twice about six inches above my penis. He was obvious looking where to touch me (either to avoid accidently touching my penis or to catch a glimpse of it.)

I was, in fact, touched. I was also exposed to the old man when I stood in the stall and even more so when he reached into the shield. After I walked out of the initiatory room, my father led me back to my locker stall where I got dressed for the movie part. I was really freaked out and wanted to leave, but everyone acted like everything was ok. So I pretended like I was ok and went through the rest of the ceremony. I never did the initiatories again.



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Subject: Did you read my answer to your specific question to me? If not, here it is.
Date: Jan 20 21:11
Author: SusieQ#1

To say that no one was touched on their bare skin under a flimsy sheet/tunic, in the Washing and Anointing Ordinance, is completely false.


The whole point of the ordinance is the symbolic washing and anointing and the body is touched in several places by the ordinance worker.

Read this. It is 100% factual.

[edit ] Detailed descriptions...OK here goes... My temple history recap and memories of Washing and Anointing...Re:My Q. is: when/where did you take your endowment, and were you touched?


I went to the temple for the first time in August of 1962. I had been a member just over a year.

That was the ceremony up to 1984. You can find it on line.
After a year, (I refused to go again for at least that long)
I felt extremely pressured by the BYU married ward we were in to go to another temple. So, I did.

I have done somewhere between 300 to 400 "sessions" in several temples in the USA (Logan, Manti, SLC, Provo,Wash DC, LA, to name a few) and in one in Europe (Swis). The last time I attended was in the middle 90's, after the 1990 changes.

As a long time musician and dramatist, I easily memorized the whole ceremony (all of them) word for word. (over 30+ years of temple attendance, averaging two sessions a month). At the time, it presented (to my view) as an old fashioned play done in costumes and the rituals were not to be taken literally.

I married into a long time TBM family, going back to Joseph Smith days. I am personally acquainted with dozens of Mormons that attended the temple from the early 1900's on.

I have met many "general authorities" over the years, especially when we lived in Utah during the 1960's.
Some were speakers at our "Firesides" in our local homes, such as Boyd K Packer, Bruce R McConkie, and dozens of others.

We lived in Utah in the 1960's where the temple garments were bought "over the counter" at Penny's. I usually went to the one in Provo for the official underwear.

I have posted extensively on the Role of Women in Mormonism and the Temple Washing and Anointing.Tis is part of a prior post on the subject.

Memories of washing and anointing rituals.


The washing and anointing rituals are only required the first time you go to the temple now as these ordinances are done in blocks by people who do only those kinds of sessions.

If you go through as proxy for any dead relative, you must do the washing and anointing along with it. Years ago, we did the washing and anointing and the endowment session for the same name all in one evening. Sometimes doing two sessions doing it all for two deceased people.

I can still see the rows of tiny lockers where we completely undressed and donned the sheet tunic, carrying our long temple garments (one piece underwear like a "union suit") into the little cubical where the old lady awaited me.

You enter a small stall, and sit on a cold marble type slab. The female temple worker doing the washing and anointing stands behind and to the side of you and starts with the top of the head, the forehead, the eyes, nose, mouth, breast, bowels, legs..etc.

She has a little spigot she gets water from that drips slowly. The oil is done in the same fashion. Nothing untoward, of a sexual nature is done, (at least not in my experience) but it is ethically and culturally out of order. How anyone can equate that to something spiritual amazes me.

I can still see, hear and feel and smell those old women. They were a little like your grandma; dressed in a white uniform, false teeth clacking, chewing a breath mint. I could feel their breath and smell the aroma of the mints as she whispered in my ear, reaching under the sheet with those warm, sweaty, damp hands sliding over here and over there, anointing me first with dabs of water from head to toe, then going the same thing with oil.

I can still hear the water trickling from the tiny spigot that she put her hands into to begin the anointing. I can still hear the sing-song monotone of her memorized washing and anointing dialogue.

Sometimes, I had to stifle a giggle as the old woman inadvertently tickled me and I squirmed.

I tried to sit very still so she would not slide her wet, warm oily hand anywhere it ought not to be as her face was averted outside the sheet and she could not see where she had her hands.

Sometimes she slid her hands within inches of my breasts and pubic hair as she slid her hands around in her predetermined and well practiced path.

I always hated that part and would shudder when she slide those warm, oily hands down my legs onto my feet.

There are promises given, with each part of the body that is washed-dabbed with water and anointed-dabbed with oil. The promises have to do with promising the female that she will be a priestess to her husband etc.
(These have been posted on this forum and they are easily found on line.)

When she finished, she would help me step into my new temple underwear, (in past years it was a pair of old fashioned temple garments that covered the body from ankle to wrist to neck), while still wearing that sheet tunic, adjusting it properly. I always had the feeling she wanted to kiss me, she was so pleased. I often got a a little hug. I still shudder.

Then she sent me out into the dressing area with our lockers where dozens of other women were coming and going.

Here, we got completely dressed and attached the keys to the locker on our dress someplace where they giggled quietly, sometimes the only sound head while walking down the halls in our white slippers on well carpeted floors.

How does the Mormon church get old Mormon men and women to believe it is a sacred ordinance to touch your bare skin under a sheet with little dabs of water then oil while you sit in a small cubicle?

The part that is so unethical and disrespectful is that no one tells the new initiate anything ahead of time.

You go and do what dozens of other people are doing. It is very difficult to leave once you get in the temple. It can be done, I know, I have watched people do it, but it is rare.

This is group pressure at it's most intense.

Under no other circumstances would anyone even dare to consider that you would strip naked, put on a shield (sheeting made in the style of a tunic or poncho) as it is called, carry your underwear and go into a small room alone with someone you do not know while they whisper memorized dialogue, usually with a breath mint in their mouth then help dress you in the official temple garment to be worn day and night for the rest of your life.


Originally, this was a complete washing and anointing, similar to some other religious customs.

What we will do in the name of pleasing the Mormon God!



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Subject: was repeatedly touched.
Date: Jan 20 21:14
Author: kc

Not only was I touched during my initiatory....

but I KNOW I was not 'mistaken' or having a 'false memory' because my 2 friends and I used to actually go to the temple for hours and do initiatories for the dead! I went round and round in the little booths until I thought I would faint, being touched over and over until the oil was dripping down my body in certain spots. Yes, I had a sheet over me, open on the sides, and yes, a little old lady reached under the sheet with her COLD bony hands and touched my naked body. When she would bend and touch my legs her face was almost in my lap. When she anointe my breasts she touched above the breast area but when she anointed my vitals and bowels she often inadvertently brushed my breasts or nipples. IT WAS VERY UNCOMFORTABLE.

So yeah. Naked touching.

kc



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Subject: I was totally touched.
Date: Jan 20 21:26
Author: Harry
Mail Address:
"I guy reached in and touched me twice about six inches above my penis."

Whoa! It's a good thing the penis wasn't standing erect! Otherwise guess what he would have been annointing and touching!



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Subject: 1970, SLC temple
Date: Jan 20 21:20
Author: Stray Mutt

I was naked except for the holy poncho. I was touched briefly, discretely, on several parts of my body, including at about 9 o'clock from Mr. Winkie, about 3 inches away.


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Subject: I was wearing a drafty poncho, an old lady approached me
Date: Jan 20 21:42
Author: Saucie

with oil dripping from her fingers, she mumbled "health to
the navel, blah blah blah, marrow to the bones, or something like that, she was saying her lines like a robot, she touched me as she talked, her fingers were cold and I got the intense feeling that she was so very very bored. I was scared of where else she would touch me, I had no idea that I would be touched by anyone, especially
by an old woman with arthritic fingers and a no nonsense
approach.


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Subject: This web site has a very good account of the Washing and Anointing Ordinance.
Date: Jan 20 22:02
Author: SusieQ#1

The other pages cover the rest of the rituals.

See this:
[www.helpingmormons.org]



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Subject: It is my observation that those who claim no memory of "touching" in the temple do so
Date: Jan 20 23:07
Author: SusieQ#1

because of the nature of the event.

The pressure, especially when getting married; the new, unusual, strange experiences in the temple that impose complete compliance can leave most of that wedding day a complete blank in a bride or groom's mind.

The second reason for claiming no "touching" in the temple is denial and protection of their claimed sacred ordinances because they are so pressured to not divulge it (those death threats were pretty powerful) they either cannot even admit their experience to themselves, let alone anyone else.

I have walked out of the temple with a temple patron in our party and remarked about noticing changes, and they claim claim there were no changes. Mind boggling.

Maybe it is a hypnotic experience for some patrons. They are in a daze, they do not recall what they did and are in some kind of imposed state of denial.

Whatever it is, denial of being touched on their naked skin by temple ordinance workers (strangers) in the temple by TBM's is quite common.

Or else, they blatantly lie on purpose!


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Subject: SuzieQ -- "Denial of touching of naked skin is quite common by TBM's"
Date: Jan 20 23:16
Author: Soulful Thinker
Mail Address:
So what gives? Why is it so common for them to deny it? Indeed, it is truly mind boggling.

I have yet to grasp how they can and do deny it. I mean sheesh, I have been through the temple and I KNOW that they do it.

So, if they can deny point blank blatantly provable facts, then ofcourse they can dismiss any logic we throw at them regarding church history or the con-man Joseph Smith.



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Subject: Re: SuzieQ -- "Denial of touching of naked skin is quite common by TBM's"
Date: Jan 20 23:22
Author: SusieQ#1

Denial, memory loss, cognitive dissonance, pressure, fear, etc. I have no idea what is wrong with people.

My experience is that not once in 30+ yrs of going to the temple did anyone admit a thing. If I even brought up something that was said or done in the temple, people became quiet, told me they could not discuss it, and would not even voice an opinion about something that had nothing to do with the ordinances. I always thought it was very strange behavior.


Now as a Former Mormon, I encounter TBM's who deny all of it.

Maybe they are protecting their "worthiness" out of fear of loosing a place in the CK!



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Subject: touched in Provo 1975.
Date: Jan 20 23:45
Author: kj
Mail Address:
I still remember the "pancho" thing and trying to keep it closed. I was touched by some grey haired old guy mumbling about loins and sinews.

I never did intititory again, and the were always trying to get us to sign up in EQ.


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Subject: We were all touched. Do you know anybody who WASN'T???
Date: Jan 20 23:53
Author: duffy

My personal experience was 1983 in the Washington DC temple. Absolutely I was touched. That's the way it was done up until this week. I went back for endowments for the dead but I never wanted to do another initiatory after my own. It was extremely embarrassing and uncomfortable.



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Subject: Swizerland 1983
Date: Jan 20 23:56
Author: squeezebox

I was washed and anointed as described by most people here. When it was time to have my "loins" washed the old guy touched me on the base of my back. I was a bit nervous because I had read the endowment already but did not know exactly where I'd be touched..although I knew that I would be touched. I was very relieved that I didn't get groped. It was done very discretely but it was still quite uncomfortable.



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Subject: Re: I want to hear from people who are "touched", if any! (Temple Initiation)
Date: Jan 21 00:31
Author: randyh

I was "initiated" in 1983 in Idaho Falls.

Of course I was touched. That is the whole reason that the "shield" which was like a poncho; was open on the sides.

It was open because the temple worker had to physically reach in and touch certain areas with water, then with oil.

I seem to remember the "loins", which meant touching on the top of the ass area. The shoulders, maybe the knees....I can't really remember them all. I don't remember any genital touching, I think just above the pubic area.

It was kind of freaky but in a droning, somewhat perfunctory, paternalistic and gentle, but beuracratic way. And the touching was always a single light touch with a finger.

The whole day was so weird, I was told upon emerging from the veil: "you're one of us now"

Thinking back now,,,it was like that scene in "Rosemary's Baby"! The one at the end where Rosemary is looking around the room at all the faces of her neighbors who were familiar, but now she was seeing them in a whole new terrifying but oddly bland and nerdy way!

Something about it kind of reminds me of "Wicker Man" too...CREEPY!



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Subject: Quinlansolo, you're full of crap. I've gone through 91 repetitions.
Date: Jan 21 00:33
Author: Tyson Dunn
Mail Address:
My own endowment: January 1992. After the mission in 1994, a trip to the DC temple to help a friend's family and did three sets of 30.

Your denial is as scummy as the Mormon apologists. If you are endowed (which I'm beginning to doubt) someone put your garment on you that you stepped into and zipped up the front, and before that you were washed and anointed by touching.

Tyson



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Subject: Look at these web sites -- is the memory coming back now??? :-)
Date: Jan 21 00:39
Author: SusieQ#1

Articles Necessary for Temple Initiatory Work (Washings and Anointings)
Special regalia (ritual clothing) is needed for temple work. In order to participate in the Initiatory Work one needs a Shield and a Garment.

The Shield is a poncho-like covering. It is made by folding a rectangular piece fabric (such as terry cloth, or cotton flannel) in half, and cutting a circular opening at the fold for the patrons head to fit through. It reaches about eight inches from the floor on both sides, and covers the front and back sides. The sides are open, and are held closed by the patron. Prior to receiving the Washings and Anointings the patron removes all clothing and puts on the shield in the privacy of a locker. The temple worker performing the Washings and Anointings touches the partron's various body parts as they are mentioned in special blessing s/he recites. It must be understood that all Washings and Anointings are performed in sexually segregated rooms.

[www.lds-mormon.com]


AND - see photo's of shields, etc.:

[www.helpingmormons.org]



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Subject: Re: I want to hear from people who are "touched", if any! (Temple Initiation)
Date: Jan 21 00:50
Author: Oh Please

I was a temple worker and a regular attendee. They did touch the patrons. What do you think the whole oil thing was for? Didn't you walk out of there with oil on several places on your body? If not, they did not do their job. Too bad you can't go back and have the experience again. End of an era.


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Subject: No doubt about it!
Date: Jan 21 03:25
Author: jennyfoo

I was touched on all the places mentioned by other posters and my breast was also grazed a few times. I was pretty much in a daze due to the weirdness of it all, but I never forgot the touching or the horrible breath...

-Jenn



Mormon Temple additional topics

13. Non-Mormon and Garments 15. Temple Divorces
19. Feel Ugly in Temple Clothing? 32. The Changing Temple
33. First Time to the Temple 42. Washing and Anointing
44. Stopped wearing garments 66. Secret or Sacred?
127 Temple Marriage Ceremony 155 New Names Given in the Temple
165 Not allowed to the Temple Wedding 169 Can Temple Ordinances be Changed?
234 Changing Rules? Temple Marriages 238 She Can't Stand The Temple
243 Temple Hype Versus Reality 285 First Time to Temple II
288. Protestant Minister Pre-1990 Endowment 293 Excluded from Children's Wedding
301 Speaking Publicly about the Temple 306 Temples are Running out of Names
331 The Temple Endowment not Changed per Apologist 339 Temple Marriage vs. Traditional
359 Canceling a Temple Sealing

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Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church www.exmormon.org

and

[www.exmormon.org]

Quote
Hopeful Soul
Posted // October 13,2011 -
Eight arguments against the LDS Church being labeled as a “cult”:

8. Cults tend to operate out of sight; LDS temples will soon outnumber Starbucks.

7. Cults use mind-control techniques that are subtle and sophisticated, two approaches foreign to KSL and the Deseret News.

6. Cults sing songs like “Don’t Fear the Reaper” between buffets in Wendover (Blue Öyster Cults only).

5. Cults separate you from relatives; Mormons force members to hang out with their families.

4. Cults demand excessive financial donations; the LDS Church only asks for 10 percent … forever.

3. Cults are difficult to leave alive; annoying ex-Mormons are everywhere.

2. Cults adhere to strict, uniform dress codes; LDS standards range all the way from modest to Old Navy.

1. Cults have charismatic, dynamic leaders.

Twitter: @Bill_Frost | BillFrost.tv


The above item was posted yesterday on this forum"s Headlines. It is taken from Cityweekly. There is a bit of truth and surely a lot of good humor here, too much to pass up for readers of this thread who might have missed it.

FYI, LDS Temples don't even outnumber Starbucks IN UTAH!

In many ways Impact is designed to play on the cult behaviors that LDS people are already predisposed to accepting (like subservience to an appointed leader). Have you seen the Billion Dollar mall in SLC? I would argue that 10% does constitute excessive (since it is exactly twice the Utah state tax rate). Does the LDS church collect more in tithing than Utah state does in taxes? Possibly, would be an interesting study if the LDS church, a non-profit (and non-prophet *snicker*) organization didn't have a history of concealing and misreporting their financial information(such as the under reported Prop 8 contributions that they were busted for) .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2011 12:13AM by formerimpactgrad.

I have close family and friends who went through the highest levels of Impact Trainings. Some also went through the highest levels of Mormonism. I’ve seen the residue, pain and fallout of both organizations at my doorstep and in my walls. I was born LDS, indoctrinated from birth, completed a two year mission, attended temple sessions frequently, had multiple callings/responsibilities, and got out at the age of 26. I can honestly say that Mormonism as an institution is responsible for some of the most insidious experiences of my life.

The Missionary Training Center is cult within a cult. You must feel the spirit at this time in this way, or something is wrong with you. Are you feeling it? No? Well, look inward, because we all are. You must teach these lessons, wake up at this time, and look like every other bloke next to you. You must be secluded from your family, no calls except twice a year from that point on, letters once a week. Apologists sometimes state that missionaries can email now, and they don’t have to stick to the discussions verbatim. Whoopty ***k, how many decades was it not like that? No music unless approved, no reading materials unless approved, no looking at the opposite sex unless you view them as you would a sibling, AND no wandering off without some stranger next to your side known as a “companion”. As much as I saw happy bright faces in the MTC I also saw misery, desperation, and fear on the faces of many “elders”. Some were disheartened that they had to shower in public. There were no private showers. Some elders had pranks pulled on them like it was sophomore year in high school. Some were sternly rebuked for not shaving, or sternly rebuked for being one minute late to a meeting. It was a type of bootcamp. Despite all this, I loved every minute of the MTC. I never considered anything was wrong with any of what I just said, I had never been given in my 19 years of life up to that point any other alternative than knowing that the prophet spoke to god, my tithing was benefitting humanity, and that I was a chosen vessel of the priesthood to bring about the salvation which this wicked world desperately needed.

As a young missionary I had frequent doom/death feelings that began in the first weeks after leaving the MTC. I was 2000 miles from home. I felt that if I did not proceed with the mission agenda as dictated by the Holy Spirit and the leadership that I would be in Satan’s grasp, my parents would die, and that I would forever fail some potential convert’s soul to save and lose them to hell forever. These were realities to me, every waking moment. I taught it to others, and encouraged new investigators to leave their family and friends who were skeptical and join the kingdom. We used scare tactics that if they didn’t commit now Satan would get them. Most missionaries I worked with would use this scripture as a scare tactic to get them to commit to baptism [bible.cc]

If I woke up late I was deviating, if I slept during study time I was deviating, if I didn’t put my knuckle on every door in every type of weather, I was deviating, and Christ had the guillotine ready for me for the spiritual blood on my hands. If you watch a General Conference session, usually at least one talk is devoted to this type of fear mongering. As I began to really struggle I was interviewed by the Mission President’s second counselor, who asked me if I was “man enough” to continue. I stayed four more months. I got to the point where I felt I was being destroyed, where in order to preserve any amount of sanity I had left my brain produced the audible sound of Jesus’ voice in my head, saying “fear not little one, I’m not going to destroy you”. This relieved the pressure for a time, but I hadn’t even finished a quarter of my mission before I was “honorably” sent home to fix myself. I saw an LDS Family Services psychiatrist because I was still set apart as a full time service missionary and all mission rules still applied. I was given three separate medications I had never taken before, and was sent back out to the mission field six months later to proselyte full time again. Repeat steps , wash, rinse, I got home after the two years traumatized to the point of losing memories before the mission. It took three years before my mind even began to remotely recuperate. I couldn’t hold a job, I could barely attend college, but not surprisingly I still paid a full tithe, attended the temple regularly, taught deacons quorum, taught Sunday school 3 times a month, and was frequently told I should enter the church educational system as a gospel instructor and teach full time. After I had been home for two years I had an issue with one of my callings, was told to man up and do what I was told by my Stake President/Uncle, and that started my mind towards the action of leaving the church, which took three more years before I threw the garments in the trash.

I admit, this was my experience, not everyone’s, but if you think for a second that I’m the only one who has gone through this or something similar, you’re wrong. In passing I talked with two other missionaries who had similar experiences and I saw the system of the church fail time and time again to empathize with struggling young men, instead feeding them the same bollocks of the best two years, worthy women want returned missionaries, Jesus commands it, eternity is at stake.

When I see Mormonism defended on a site that is devoted to educating people about the dangers of cults, I want to vomit.

How can anyone denounce Impact Trainings and in the same breath promote Mormonism? I know it’s because apologists for cults don’t think they’re in one, but that doesn’t make it any less absurd. Do temple prep classes ever tell any new temple goer that pre 1990 the endowment sessions had death penalty warnings for revealing temple secrets? Why did I have to learn that from the same Stake President/Uncle at his dinner table, who acknowledged that the practice was done away in the same nonchalant fashion as perusing a magazine? You don’t think that’s even remotely odd? Hundreds of thousands of people meeting in temples all around the globe doing motions of ways they would die if they revealed secrets, swept under the rug like it never happened? That doesn’t qualify as cult behavior? Or being naked except for a white poncho and being touched by a stranger? You realize you’re never told those things going into it, no one was ever told “You’ll be asked to take off all your clothes except for a white poncho and have some old person touch you”, or “you’ll be asked to put your hand to your throat and stomach and perform the action of how you’d be killed before you say anything about temple secrets”? That’s not cult-like behavior? Of course it is, it follows the same pattern as Impact, keep the secrets of the higher levels to yourselves, only the worthy may enter here. “Devote your time, talents, possessions, even your very lives to gospel of Jesus Christ, for the building up of the kingdom of god on the earth, bow your head and say yes, that will do”, that’s also a promise in the temple paraphrased.

NO, Mormonism is a baldfaced cult with a history of racism, sexism, homophobia and dishonest cover ups of its controversial practices in the spiritual and financial arenas. And to Hopeful Soul jokingly stating that annoying ex mormons are everywhere, I don’t find it funny or appropriate for this board. Keep that bullshit in elders quorum or relief society. Being labeled an apostate and ostracized from my family due to my unbelief is a painful experience, and the term “anti mormon” is some bullshit term like “non member” or “jack mormon”, terms that put a value and label of quality on a person relative to their position and standing in the LDS faith. No thanks.

Glaucon, some years ago, I was out on a dark and rainy day in my city. Saw some young LDS missionaries. There they were in that nasty weather. What bothered me most was that they were dressed in black raincoats.

They were on foot in an area with heavy vehicle traffic. Those black raincoats made the two of them hard to see in the rain.

If the LDS really took care of its own, at least in the admin district my city is in, they'd have arranged to give their missionaries high viz raincoats so they'd be more visible to motorists on that kind of dark and rainy day.

Better yet, those young persons would not have been out in the rain at all.

This thread is getting about 40 hits per day which should put it over the 90K threshold by New Years. This is a lot interest for such an obscure LGAT. Impact seems to be doing a lot of promotion. Business must not be so good this year.