Twillia1, LGATs are designed in such a way that what might appear to be spontaneous exciting results are, in fact, predictable outcomes because of the conditions established in them, including the mind control tactics.

The euphoria that many people experience has been researched and it is actually something so far removed from a breakthrough. It is actually a breakdown, when people often go into a disocciative state.

Read Snapping by Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman to learn more.

Another thing is that cognitive dissonance is often at play whereby people downplay, justify and accept disquieting feelings or information that threatens the information of accepted ideas and structures of understanding.

It sounds like it is at play in your case. It sounds like you aren't prepared to check it out honestly with the inner wisdom of the voice within. Keep justifying your case despite the cognitive dissonance you experience, but [b:f723796787]remember this one day when you can no longer justify this stuff.[/b:f723796787]

[i:f723796787]You seem to be here as an apologist for MKP and acting in a manner that can be seen as a message board "troll." [/i:f723796787]

Thank you, RR. Agreed. And I am sure there are many others on these boards who see, [b:f723796787]and are prepared to see[/b:f723796787] the manipulation going on in MKP and other LGATs.

They're prepared to accept and recognize the manipulation at work.

From another post:

[i:f723796787]Thanks, nccg_concern. I changed the link to Dick Sutphen's own page at [www.dicksutphen.com] - it was just a little easier to read.

On another thread - [board.culteducation.com] - I wrote about Sutphen and a bit follows about him, including input by the moderator. You might wish to take a look at that.

Anyone who believes mind control/thought reform/brainwashing doesn't exist is fooling him/herself.

As I quoted Sutphen on the other thread:

IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF MAN, NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN BRAINWASHED AND REALIZED, OR BELIEVED, THAT HE HAD BEEN BRAINWASHED.

He also wrote: If you think you can attend such gatherings and not be affected, you are probably wrong.

It's worth thinking about that![/i:f723796787]

Just how sure are you about your control over things that have happened to you with MKP? Heed the warning above.

But, I don't have too much hope. I am sure you will find some way to apologise for it. To go with cognitive dissonance.

I am posting because of the unethical methods used on LGATs. Now some methods and exercises can be kept quiet, but when they involve all the mind control stuff, it should be up front.

I am posting so that people may make educated decisions before trying a LGAT.

And as for the question about how it is going to help me with my girlfriend, thanks for the heart you show. It seems to reflect some of the pompous attitudes presented on MKP.

Attack the messenger not the message.

Where is the respect for others?

Respect would also involve being up front, honest, and no manipulation. Does MKP have it?

"So amr123, to be clear, you attended a meeting ahead of time, and still decided to attend the training weekend?"

I apologize if I was not clear. I attended an informational meeting which made me extremely uncomfortable. I did not attend the weekend.

I further apologize for inciting ire in a member of a group discussion in which I am a newcomer. I think I had bottled up my feelings for so long that when I finally let them out, I sounded bitter and angry, even though that is not how I wanted to be perceived.

I promise to keep my temper and not let it happen again.

twillia1:

You said:

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you take excerpts completely out of context and put them in your own order

Go back and read this thread.

The complete text of the MKP manual with all the leader instructions was posted here in order.

Then MKP and its attorney threatened legal action for copyright violation to get it taken down.

This is a tactic that has been used by Scientology to keep people from reading their material on-line.

Subsequently, the material was edited in order within "fair use" guidelines for the purpose of a review.

I have read the complete MKP manual and MKP has acknowledged officially that it is their material and accurate. In my opinion the manual material is an indictment of MKP through its own words, i.e. that is is a highly manipulative and potentially unsafe LGAT.

The MKP manual reads much like a textbook process of coercive persuasion, or what Robert Jay Lifton calls "thought reform."

See [www.culteducation.com]

Landmark Education, a notorious LGAT that has been sued for wrongful death and personal injuries generates more complaints than any other single group listed or mentioned at this Web site.

See [www.culteducation.com]

And LGATs like Landmark and MKP generate more complaints than any other type of group, including Sci-fi groups like Scientology, with the exception of so-called "bible based" groups.

Landmark graduates often sing the same song as you...

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why not go through? At least then you can complain about something that you know about.

I don't need to go to the MKP weekend to learn how to read.

It is not necessary to attend a group's meetings, events, LGAT to understand it.

The MKP material is a reflection of in-depth detail of what the weekend is all about. And it offers a perspective not seen by participants from the leader's instructions.

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If this is a forum for all anti-MKPers to sit around and complain about how an LGAT "ruined their lives,"

Attempting to somehow blame those hurt by LGATs like MKP for their injuries is not a meaningful response to what's wrong with LGATs.

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If there is no room for any counter-points, then please, tell me...

You have quite a few posts up, which are all essentially a defense of MKP and its training. You are here as an apologist, but your posts have been approved and allowed through.

Some might say you are little more than a "troll," posting here to undercut discussion on this thread.

This is a moderated forum with rules.

Just wanted you to know that I am watching your posts and they are beginning to sound the same, redundant and defensive rhetoric over and over again.

Well said RR.

Some true compassion and less self-righteousness in Twillia1's posts would be welcome.

Also, it would be nice if Twillia1 took the time to properly read the material elsewhere on the website pointed out in the posts.

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amr123
I further apologize for inciting ire in a member of a group discussion in which I am a newcomer. I think I had bottled up my feelings for so long that when I finally let them out, I sounded bitter and angry, even though that is not how I wanted to be perceived.

I promise to keep my temper and not let it happen again.

No need to apologize, Amr123. Twilla1 is a newcomer to this discussion as well, yet he could obviously learn how to respectfully enter a conversation that has been going on in this community for months before he joined. I think that you were very honest and respectful in your entree into this conversation--and I am not saying this because you are an anti-MKP'er and he is a pro-MKP'er. I respect your experience as much as I respect his--I just think that you were more respectful in how you have shared yours than Twilla1. Thank you for sharing.

Hi, all.

I confused about something and thought you all might be able to give me some feedback. I won't share my gut feelings on this one and instead wait to hear your opinions.

As mentioned before, my hubby was recruited by a close family member. This family member is very entrenched with mkp and has been touting its "pot of gold" and "gifts" to its members for a long time to my hubby. In his own words, this family member had been "grooming" and "actively recruiting" my hubby for years. Despite his reservations, my hubby agreed to go, as this family member wouldn't let up, and he didn't want to let this family member down, as my hubby has always looked up to him. So he went, and had problems with the weekend from the start, but again didn't want to share those feelings with this family member for quite a while, as he didn't want to let him down, nor did he want to isolate this family member, as he didn't want to come across as someone who was criticizing what his family member had become so involved in within the past decade or so.

However, his family member started the recruitment up again and has been trying to get my hubby to get more involved. Not wanting to disappoint this person to much, or seem too judgemental, my hubby finally told this family member that he was not interested in any future involvement with mkp and gave his reasons in the most respectful way he could. He explained the coginitive dissonance issues discussed here--as well as the complete juxtaposition between the therapy/educational strategies of mkp and his own personal, professional, and ethical philosophies. He did not condemn his family member for being a part of mkp, nor did he suggest that this family member end his involvement with mkp; however, this family member won't leave my hubby alone with his decision. Instead, he keeps trying to change his mind, strongly suggests that my hubby should staff a weekend with one of the main leaders so that he could get his concerns/questions addressed, tries to get him to go to I-groups instead, tells him that he could be an agent for change in mkp (in addressing the issues that he has with mkp), argues that this group can solve my hubby's problems (which his family member suggests are problems, not my hubby)--anything to thwart his decision to live a life free of mkp.

Why do y'all think he won't give up trying to recruit/groom my hubby? If this family member truly loves and respects my hubby, do you think he would continue to recruit him? Do you think that my hubby could actually change this group for the better? Would you say something to this family member, or would you just let your spouse handle it since it is his family member? The whole situation is aggravating my hubby, but he doesn't want to alienate this family member--especially since he thinks that he may need him should he become dissallusioned with or abused by mkp.

Thanks in advance for any insight from both pro- and anti-mkp'ers.

The methods that MKP uses have been posted on this thread. They involve many of the more negative aspects of LGATs. Unethical is a word that comes to mind.

It doesn't matter how you cut it, their methods will always be questionable.

If your husband doesn't feel right about MKP then I feel he should go with that. His family member should respect that too.

Enough has been written on these boards to show the possible negative outcomes of the courses and because of this it makes each participant a potential casualty of MKP.

'It will never happen to me' is a thought that has got many people in trouble before.

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Anidawehi
Hi, all.

I confused about something and thought you all might be able to give me some feedback. I won't share my gut feelings on this one and instead wait to hear your opinions.

As mentioned before, my hubby was recruited by a close family member. This family member is very entrenched with mkp and has been touting its "pot of gold" and "gifts" to its members for a long time to my hubby. In his own words, this family member had been "grooming" and "actively recruiting" my hubby for years. Despite his reservations, my hubby agreed to go, as this family member wouldn't let up, and he didn't want to let this family member down, as my hubby has always looked up to him. So he went, and had problems with the weekend from the start, but again didn't want to share those feelings with this family member for quite a while, as he didn't want to let him down, nor did he want to isolate this family member, as he didn't want to come across as someone who was criticizing what his family member had become so involved in within the past decade or so.

However, his family member started the recruitment up again and has been trying to get my hubby to get more involved. Not wanting to disappoint this person to much, or seem too judgemental, my hubby finally told this family member that he was not interested in any future involvement with mkp and gave his reasons in the most respectful way he could. He explained the coginitive dissonance issues discussed here--as well as the complete juxtaposition between the therapy/educational strategies of mkp and his own personal, professional, and ethical philosophies. He did not condemn his family member for being a part of mkp, nor did he suggest that this family member end his involvement with mkp; however, this family member won't leave my hubby alone with his decision. Instead, he keeps trying to change his mind, strongly suggests that my hubby should staff a weekend with one of the main leaders so that he could get his concerns/questions addressed, tries to get him to go to I-groups instead, tells him that he could be an agent for change in mkp (in addressing the issues that he has with mkp), argues that this group can solve my hubby's problems (which his family member suggests are problems, not my hubby)--anything to thwart his decision to live a life free of mkp.

Why do y'all think he won't give up trying to recruit/groom my hubby? If this family member truly loves and respects my hubby, do you think he would continue to recruit him? Do you think that my hubby could actually change this group for the better? Would you say something to this family member, or would you just let your spouse handle it since it is his family member? The whole situation is aggravating my hubby, but he doesn't want to alienate this family member--especially since he thinks that he may need him should he become dissallusioned with or abused by mkp.

Thanks in advance for any insight from both pro- and anti-mkp'ers.

Hmmm, I do not know your family, but, I think, I agree with him not criticizing his family member. I do not really feel that one person can “be an agent for change” within such a group and would more likely be caught up within the group rather than create changes. My husband and I as well discussed this as a possibility. As I see (most pro) MKPers on these sites are not willing to admit fault with MKP techniques etc, why would you think that they would in I-group etc.? I feel they would just try to “wear him down” as your family member is. My husband mentioned some of his concerns during his NWTA weekend and at I-group, and was “spouted at” for his thoughts, and then redirected; he was given no true honest information as to why MKP is not a cult, just (we're not a cult). Your husband could suggest to his family member the he be the one to try to make the changes, and that if those changes are made, then your husband would “think” about it. I feel that when this family member starts “talking MKP” to your husband he should say “I have already given you my answer, please stop disrespecting my choices in life, they are my choices and I do have a right to them just as you have the right to yours”, and/or, “I have already given you my answer”, and then walk away. I think after your husband walked away from the “recruiting” several times, his family member might get the picture.

I think he is trying to continue to groom your husband because he “finally” wore him down and got him to go to NWTA, he has been given positive reinforcement, if I “harass” (though I am sure he does not think of it this way) him enough, he will break down and give into my wishes. IE: it worked before, it will work again. It could also be something within him that thinks he knows better what your husband needs more than your husband does. It is a "I know better than you" reaction.

I hope that is helpful!

My husband's sponsor also kept on insisting he go to NWTA. My husband chose to not stay involved with MKP for reasons's I have previously posted. There was an unwelcome happening on his weekend that made him come to this decision.

His sponsor continually harasses him to get involved with Igroup and to staff a weekend. My husband also had a lot of respect for this man. Finally my husband just told him he respected his decision to be involved with MKP, and he wanted the same respect back for not being involved. He very politely told the man he did not want to discuss MKP again. He ended by saying if he ever reconsidered, and wanted to become involved, he would do so.

This man said OK, and did not discuss for many months. Then he brought it up again. My husband politely reminded him of his decision to go, and the mutual decision to not discuss it.

I do not think your husband can make any changes in this organization. That is just an excuse to be brought into the fold. This family member knows he can probably bring your husband around to MKP's way of thinking, if your husband will just get involved.

It amazes me that MKP believers can decide for another man what he needs in his life. And the fact they simply do not let up on recruitment makes me wonder why. If a person is happy with MKP, that does not mean every man would be happy. I can understand asking, or telling a man about MKP one time. If the man says no, then that should be it.

NO MEANS NO!!!!!!

IMO, your husband should just politely tell this family member his decision is final, and he just does not want to discuss it any further.

In my world, what this family member is doing is called manipulative bullying.

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twillia1My point has always been that we as human beings have a lot of control over what we get out of our experiences.

Yes, we do have “some” control over what we get out of our experiences. But, when something enters your life that is painful or damaging, what you learn from it is not always positive. MKP has been damaging and painful to my family, what should I get out of this that would be “positive”? I am now more vigilant in regards to “society”. I am not as “trusting” as I once was. Being less trusting than I formally was could in the long run be “helpful” to my family, but, it is painful to me to feel a certain “innocence” in my life now gone. I have defenses up, when I go to activities in my town, I am now “afraid” that I will run into the group of people that recruited my husband. I am finding it hard to just enjoy what I would previously, as in certain activities that my family enjoyed, are now things that we do not do anymore as we know that the MKP group will as well be there. So, let me point out, that if I was raped (which I feel MKP emotionally raped me), what positives should a person gain then? (And yes, MKP did emotionally rape me, they took my life and without my permission, brought abuse and pain into it, they pressured my husband to share personal information about me and our relationship with them without my permission, and then he was supposed to keep that "secret" from me. EMOTIONAL RAPE!)

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twillia1My experience in life is that when I generate this strong of a response from people, it is normally because something fits for them, and they are unwilling to admit it.

What fits for us (and I am willing to admit this) is the pain and lies and LGAT techniques and secrecy etc etc and on and on that MKP has forced into our lives. In any other situation, would you be saying the same as you are? Let's say someone rearends your vehicle and you get hurt. You have a strong reaction to the wrong done to you, but, the person who hurt you says to you "My experience in life is that when I generate this strong of a response from people, it is normally because something fits for them, and they are unwilling to admit it" they are then trying to put the blame back on you. HOW WOULD YOU FEEL? Be honest now. MKP rearended my family, and now members are putting the blame on my family. When something is painful and damaging, it does not then signify that the person in pain is the one “with the problem” every time. You are reacting like, those of us hurt by MKP, are the ones causing the problem. I say to you, if MKP had been HONEST and UPFRONT with what MKP is, my husband would NOT have become involved. (He no longer goes to I-group) MKP was not honest and upfront. MKP says "It is ok to lie to you if you don't have the right to know, because we know best".

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twillia1Read my last post... I specifically say that it IS an LGAT based on the definition of such. As far as "coming across rather badly?" Well, yes, when you take excerpts completely out of context and put them in your own order, it couldappear that way, couldn't it?

Sigh, you are making the mistake of saying that we are not empathetic and intelligent enough to “READ” and understand what we read. A person does NOT have to personally experience something to understand it. I do not have to experience cancer personally, to understand how painful and damaging and horrifying it can be. I have read the manuals, I have had many discussions with my husband, I have lived with the reactions of my husband post-mkp, I have had many "discussions" with MKPers and "see" how they all "speak" the same, I believe I understand.

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twillia1 So, moderator, I make you this challenge: Instead of sitting around making uninformed judgements about the NWTA, why not go through? At least then you can complain about something that you know about.

Again, assuming that a person has to experience something first hand to understand it. That the only way a person can be "informed" in regards to MKP they have to experience it. IMHO, you, are still "asleep". I did not have to experience Hitler to be informed and understand the sickness he created in this world.

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twillia1 I agree with you here, Ginah, with a caveat: Men (at least in my community) are always invited to an open I-group before their weekend. While this does not disclose the processes, etc. from the weekend, it does make them a bit more educated about the end result.

I do not agree with this at all, my husband attended an open “I-group”. He was no more informed about the weekend after this meeting than before he attended the I-group, oh, other than “It would change his life”, it certainly has. He was lied to at this meeting since “he didn’t have the right to know yet!!!!!!” He was not told that LGAT techniques would be used on him, he was not told that Jungian and Gestalt psychology would be used on him, he was not told that brain altering techniques would be used on him, he was not told he would have his personal items taken away from him, he was not told that he would be “abused” on this weekend, he was not told that he would have to do activities in the nude, and I could keep going on and on about what “truths” he was not told. Ah, MKP would have to be H-O-N-E-S-T and then they would lose “potential” recruits, can’t have that now can we?

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twillia1 You posted a list of "guys' rules." Again, some of this I agree with, and some I don't, and I believe the original intention of it was to be funny. But, since you brought it up, here goes:

I am glad that you think it is so funny. Just because it is considered a “joke”, does not make it less demeaning, it would be just as demeaning if it was geared towards, lets say, specific races, or religions etc, and it would not be acceptable. What makes it more acceptable with it being geared to women rather than to specific races or religions etc?

I am posting because of the unethical methods used by LGAT groups, I am trying to learn as much as I can so that I can be more “vigilant” in my life. It is very cathartic to “get out” my pain. No, I don’t need to playact “killing” anyone, murder, even imaginary, is not my style. It would be quite nice if these groups were forced (since they can’t/won’t do it on their own), to be honest and upfront with potential recruits.

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Attempting to somehow blame those hurt by LGATs like MKP for their injuries is not a meaningful response to what's wrong with LGATs.

I agree with that statement. I feel that you are a classic example of: PARANOID-WE ARE BEING PERSECUTED Any time you say anything negative about the group, whether justified or no, it is regarded as "persecution". Any criticism of the individual is also seen as persecution only because they are the "enlightened" one-not because they, as an individual, have done the wrong thing. However, at the same time they will feel free to criticise whatever you believe, say and do because they are "the only ones who are right". Your post have all been classic examples of this as well as many other pro MKP postings.

Yeah, I know, you will somehow twist everything that I and others have written and believe and feel, just as you and others have done before, to make it seem as if WE (those of us against MKP and LGATs) are the ones creating the problem. And I guess we are in a way, because, we refuse to be coerced, lied to, peer pressured, hammered, brain washed into believing "your way" is "the right way" for us.