Yes, they are deprived, (I know this as FACT!!!!!!!!) sacred items such as wedding rings, reading materials, phones, sleep, food, etc. etc. etc. etc. and yes it is "secret", a "man" has to give an "oath" of secrecy!!!!!!!!!!

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wquercus
"No one is deprived of ANYTHING during a weekend."

You are not deprived of reading material, of your shampoo and razor and soap, of "sacred items" you brought? You are not fed a meager ration of oranges and granola and oatmeal?

"There is no mysterious 'secrecy'"

No? Would you tell us about Saturday night? Would you tell your wife about it? How about Sunday morning?

"There are a bunch of good reasons for the confidentiality" -- yes, imagine your wife's face if you told her all that went on!

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Concerned Oz
This is a prime example of the loss of human empathy for others at the cost of manic focus on "self" and the group.

It took my father's death and another ugly situation for me to see this. None of my fellow lgat-ers, including the founder/teachers, displayed one speck of concern or empathy when the shit hit the fan for me. That very response from a group in which I believed for 6 years further ripped my world apart. I have deep disdain for lgats.

Since lgats teach disconnection from self, it follows that the convertd can't connect or empathize with anyone else either. And the sickness goes deeper. Part of our indoctrination involved memorizing and reciting a collection of tenets. One was "I am compassionate with myself and others. I remember we are all wounded." Thus, we were being programmed to [b:0e65401cb6]lie[/b:0e65401cb6] to ourselves about what was [b:0e65401cb6]really[/b:0e65401cb6] being taught.

Empathy is taboo, and lgats teach emotional illiteracy. Nevermind that Context Associated's webpage says that emotional intelligence is what they teach! The deception starts at the very beginning.

Your statements:

"There is no mysterious 'secrecy'"

No? Would you tell us about Saturday night? Would you tell your wife about it? How about Sunday morning?

"There are a bunch of good reasons for the confidentiality" -- yes, imagine your wife's face if you told her all that went on!

My answer:

So, within this men's group, integrity, honesty, guilt/shame is talked about and how a "man" should keep his integrity and honesty and not do anything that would cause him guilt/shame and if he does he should talk about it and "feel" it. So, if what happened is something you would not tell your wife about, is that not a form of guilt/shame as to what went on??? If it was something that you are "embaressed" about, or know it is something that would be painfull to a person you are supposed to love and respect, do you really think that is something "normal" and "healthy" for youself and your relationship? I just keep seeing in so many places where this group talks about all kinds of what I would think of as "good, healthy" action's, and then do the opposite of all they are spouting.

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skeptic
Since lgats teach disconnection from self...

Can you tell me more of what this means? In what way - by substituting group-think for self-think? I am just trying to understand.

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Empathy is taboo, and lgats teach emotional illiteracy.

Again, can you explain what you mean in more detail? How do you typify/identify emotional illiteracy?

Thanks...

cccoveguy:

Did you take the time to read the links on the other MKP thread?

See [board.culteducation.com]

There is a study cited on "mass marathon training" and another research paper about coercive persuasion.

If you read this MKP thread you will not only find those links, but an explanation about how the MKP manual notes, which are excerpted and quoted verbatim, apply to the criteria etc.

Interesting reading.

FYI--"wquercus" made admissions that were quite telling about MKP on this thread and elsewhere. But after some months he came back to delete them.

Apparently, he felt embarassed by those admissions.

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rrmoderator
cccoveguy: Did you take the time to read the links ...

I have read every dang single page I can, here and in other places and I'm sure there are many more, as well. (Many kudos to the originator and content-maintainers here, btw) And with a-l-l that information, I sometimes misplace what came from where and how to link it forward. Just trying to say "It's a lot to absorb" and often it is easier for me to grasp the practical application of information and gain understanding by asking questions directly to the experience. Thanks...

ccoveguy:

You seem to focusing more on the value of subjective "experience," rather than research and facts.

Fact--There is a repeated pattern of problems with LGATs that the research identifies.

See [www.culteducation.com]

And also [www.culteducation.com]

In the second the psychologist breaks down the days of his experience.

Also see [www.culteducation.com]

This study of coercive persuasion demonstrates how people can be mislead and manipulated within a group experience.

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rrmoderator
You seem to focusing more on the value of subjective "experience," rather than research and facts.

Well, yes, when I am trying to understand a person's experience, it helps me to probe for clarification on what they mean when they say 'xyz'. However, that is not to say I am entirely dismissing all the 'book-learnin' - I reread all three of the posts you referenced and not surprisingly, integrating that information in with everything I've read and seen here and other places has been far more illuminating than simply reading those articles in isolation. Let's just say the content in those articles has taken on new depth and relevance.

From: "Mass Marathon Training" (brainwashing9.html), as regards the danger LGAT represents:

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Yalom and Lieberman concluded by again emphasizing the crucial importance of informed consent. "Our best means of prevention," they maintained, remains the type of group the subject enters, and our best means for prevention is self-selection. If responsible public education can teach prospective encounter group members about what they can expect in terms of process, risks, and profits from a certain type of group, then and only then can they make an informed decision about membership.

In no small regard, this website and these postings and discussions have indeed helped to facilitate an informed decision. But please note, the article does [b:88921a357b]not[/b:88921a357b] say "[i:88921a357b]...an informed decision to [b:88921a357b]not[/b:88921a357b] participate.[/i:88921a357b]" leaving open the option that there maybe-might -just-possibly-could-be benefit from these experiences. That's how I read it anyway.

I have limited firsthand experience with Landmark (duped twice!) and MKP and while I find it very easy to attribute to Landmark and others of it's ilk all the disturbing nuances identified in these documents, I have a hard time finding an equivalent level of coercive persuasion in the MKP training weekend. I am [b:88921a357b]NOT[/b:88921a357b] saying coercive persuasion does not exist but I am saying the fantasy/native american/pagan honoring nature of what MKP does seems far more... well... holistic. And thus, it seems much more benign. Is that possible? Sometimes people need some type of extreme stimulus or challenge to get them to think "outside the box". Is that necessarily always bad?

Regarding:

Quote

http://www.culteducation.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing44.html#Post%20Training

I absolutely have not experienced the high pressure tactics for recruiting, titheing and post-group participation that others speak of, and my circle of intimates that has completed MKP training has not either, so am I wrong to conclude those tactics are most likely unique to particular trainings/training locations and not endemic to the the entire endeavor? As regards other significant points in that article, if I am entering into the training fully informed (I have little doubt about what goes on since the confidentiality promise has been broken many times), fully aware of the manipulations and coercion that will be practiced and have self-selected to consider myself "worthy and capable" of withstanding the assault, isn't it possible I will gain something good without lasting harm?

Now that I have written all this... what I'm hearing seems to boil down to: [b:88921a357b]"Throw out the baby, throw out the bath water. It's all dangerous and bad."[/b:88921a357b] I do not believe this, simply based on the testimony of people I have remained near and dear to years after their training experiences (even Landmark graduates!). Nope, that's not objective, and it's far from scientific. Yes, many complaints can be made for the lack of selection criteria, inconsistent messaging and non-standard training events, but gosh darn it, I know people that have benefitted... did not lose their spouses... continued to evolve and grow intellectually and spiritually... and they say that no it wasn't the best thing nor the worst thing they ever did, but that it was a [b:88921a357b]valuable[/b:88921a357b] thing they did.

cccoveguy:

Many people are attracted to LGATs because they are looking for a "quick
fix" or "magic bullet" to solve their problems and/or improve their life.

Such people want to believe that an LGAT will be their solution.

And LGATs are good at making people "true believers" per the power of
persuasion. In this sense they achieve results subjectively.

If you want to believe that's your choice.

Parallels between coercive persuasion techniques and MKP practices (per its manual) have been posted at this message board.

See [board.culteducation.com]

I receive constant complaints about LGATs from past participants, families and others concerned about their influence.

I would not recommend MKP, based upon the complaints posted and received about that organization.

If you wish to sign up and attend that's your choice.