Nick:

Please answer the questions that have been posted on this thread shortly after your last post.

I actually posted a lengthy reply this morning but it seems to have been replaced with the first post I sent, ah well.

A pastor is accountable to the church who planted him. We are in Australia. In we have a state leader Pr Walsh, and an area leader, Pr Baker. We also are accountable to Pr Creemers in Geraldton WA, and also Pr Vicary in Perth WA who is the head of the Australian fellowship. If a congregation feels that a pastor is not living a biblical life or has a moral failier etc, then there is a process in which one or all of the above in headship would be contacted. Also there have been 3 previous pastors in our church who are all now missionaries and have a concern for the church. In 20 years there has never been any need for another leader to step into the situation and all previous pastors have been great.

I understand that people think that the accountability is not left to the congregation, but it is, we have access to many other pastors who will help and also if needed will remove a pastor. The idea is not Potter's House, but from the bible. No where in scripture do you see a church operating where the congregation votes a pator in or out. Paul was headship to Titus and Timothy. He told them to ordain elders (i.e. other pastors) and they always were the authority in the church, not the congregation. The debate over whether the congregation shoud rule or a pastor is an old one see: [en.wikipedia.org]

Nick:

You seem to have posted that on another thread about Christian Fellowship Churches.

Here is the response to your post that I wrote and posted at that other thread.

Nick:

Thanks for the admission that Christian Fellowship Churches is run by the pastors and there is no democratic church government as in the overwhelming majority of Protestant Church, such as the Assemblies of God, Southern Baptist Convention, Church of the Nazarene and Evangelical Free Churches, etc.

This is at the core of the many regular complaints posted here and elsewhere about Wayman Mitchell's organization over the years, which has led to church splits, probably more former members than current members, a history of bad press and lawsuits.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Anyone interested should read the press articles, which have been historically overwhelmingly negative.

Unlike most Protestan churches Christian Fellowship Churches, which includes the Door, Potter's House and various other named churches all controlled ultimately by Wayman Mitchell, is run like the military with a "chain of commmand."

But not like the military in free countries accountable to elected officials.

The Mitchell organization is essentially a totalitarian regime, a federation of petty dictators operation with a "chain of command" and Mitchell at the top.

This is something like the set up in Iran, many mullahs with one "Grand Ayatollah."

There have been divorces, custody battles repeatedly citing Mitchell's churches and his pastors as their central cause, due to control and interfernece in family relations.

Most complaints about Michell and his pastors revolve around their bad behavior and the fact that there is little the members can do other than, as you admitted Nick, complain to yet another pastor.

The members alone have no power.

Many of the complaints also include that nothing was done when members told other pastors about abuses in their church.

The New Testament was written in the First Century and isn't focused on church government, because the number of Christians and churches was small at that time.

The New Testament doesn't talk about many things that concern churches today, such as nonprofit tax exemptions, government requlations, buiding codes, zoning considerations, a choir, church bands etc.

As Christianity became a world religion that eventually included millions of believers in thousands of denominations around the world things changed to protect and defend the fatihful from abuses of power.

If you do an objective bible study about the accountability and requirements for elders, deacons and evangelists you will see the early beginnings being laid out for accountability.

There is nothing specific that explicitly forbids democratic church government in the New Testament.

Read Galatians. Paul could be harsh with controlling leaders like Wayman Mitchell and his crew.

You seem willing to defend anything Mitchell does. Can you think of anything he and his organization has done that is wrong?

What criticism do you have of Christian Fellowship Churches?

Do you think its pastors and Mitchell have made serious mistakes?

And if you do please specifically mention a few.

As regards Mitchell's salary there was an incident many years ago in which one of his workers overseas suddenly found out he wasn't covered in the event of sickness. Mitchell had cancelled the medical insurance.

Contrary to what many are told in that christian should not take christian to court {Mitchell routinely ignores this on the basis that he thinks he can dictate who is a real christian and who is not} this worker took the fellowship and Mitchell to court to get compensation. He managed to gain legal right to access the church accounts which also included Mitchell's salary which turned out to be over $100,000 if I recall correctly. This was many years ago and could be far higher today.

Mitchell in a leaders meeting also taught his pastors that they were entitled to cream off 5% of all that came into their church as 'a bonus'. Given that the last Prescott report I saw had a total income of $6 million that could mean that Mitch is claiming $300,000 just as a bonus payment on top of his regular salary which is at least a six figure sum.

As for getting this information up front by asking for it...well my advice is don't hold your breath.

Incidently I tried to estimate all the expenditure and costs for the Potters House in Walkthamstow, London and it came to a few hundred thousand pounds. However I have recieved publically available figures from the charities commission which shows their income in 2003 as quickly approaching the one million mark with expenditure being only slightly less each year. I was in the uk fellowship for a decade and saw nothing to expalin this strange rise in expenditure. They don't even pay their uk pioneer pastors a wage and those churches are often left to financially fend for themselves with a congregation of 10 to support them. I'dlike to know where most of that money is going but they won't publish proper financial reports.

Furthermore, Walthamstow is the church which was pastored by a Mr Peter Beyerman up until 1994 when he was exposed having a 4 year adulterous affair. It also turns out he was fleecing the church funds at will and nobody knew a thing about it until he was removed for adultery and they checked the books. Hows that for accountability..or the lack of it.

regards...naboth675

[www.habakkuk2-4.com]

People are leaving the mainstream organized churches by the droves. There is a good reason for this, they're catching onto the truth that almost 100% of these churches operate under the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, the thing that Jesus said he hated in the book of Revelations.
Yet, you ask the average church going Christian what the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes is, and they haven't a clue. In a nutshell, it's when the clergy runs the show, and, by the way, collects the illegal "tithe" and skims the cream off for themselves. Nice racket.
I used to be brainwashed under this doctrine myself until I gathered some information as to what the doctine of the Nicolaitanes really was.

I can't find even one single reference in the New Testament early church where the "pastor" of the church was paid a salary. Only the traveling evangelists and Apostles who went from city to city and church to church were supported financially by the believers.
In fact, in the Old Testament, God didn't have much of anything good to say about "pastors". Not to say there aren't a few left here and there who are sincere hard working men, but sadly, most of them are on a salary paid by the members, and when this is the case, usually the church is either too small on one hand to comfortably support them, or too large for him to be in personal contact with each member, and even worse, is invariably operating under the Doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which is forbidden and hated by Jesus Himself. Rev 2:6 and Rev 2:16. I can see the Lord's reasoning in this, since it opens up the church to potential abuses, and we see these abuses in evidence in most all mainstream American churches in one way or another.
A good friend told me of a song written by an old Delta Blues musician that went, "I wanna be a Baptist preacher so I don't have to work". He said a mouthful.

ekklesiana

ekklesiana:

What is your purpose posting here?

Do you wish to specifically discuss the Potter's House, which is the topic of this threas?

My reason for posting here was that I wanted to point out that it's not scriptural for any salary, or recompense to be paid to a pastor, whether it be Potter's House or any church. If I was off topic, please pardon the error.

You are off topic.

Hello... I've been a member of the Potters House CFM for over 10 years and I've never felt pushed or ruled over like Jesus talks about in REV. . I think you are taking that the scripture out of context. Doesn't the bible talk about there being leaders? yes. And that they should be appointed? yes. WE vote.... not the Pastor for those people. And we are always offered a more detailed account of the financial statement if we would like one. My pastor didn't receive wages of any kind until the last couple of years... since you're so interested- it is $500 a month. And doesn't the bible also talk about those pastors, priests, or what ever you call the leaders of your church being blessed with the offerings for their service? Yes. (Numbers 18)

Jesus is talking about hypocrites that live one way and preach another condemning those that sin instead of caring for them. Jesus also talks about living Holy lives, consecrated to Him. THAT is what is preached at my church. Not my pastor being lord over me... as a matter of fact he warns us not to just take his word on things, because he is human and with flaws himself. But instead holds himself to an even higher standard than what he holds us to so that he himself will not be disqualified. (as Paul once said)

Are there pastors in the CFM that "rule" over their congregation? Yes... and I know that it is wrong, but there are pastors like that in EVERY church out there. That is why the bible says to look after your own salvation with fear and trembling. (Philippians 2:12) My pastor has even admitted when he was wrong... publicly... and with an apology.

I think it is so wrong of anyone to bash a church from what they've heard. I love my church. I believe in the ministry and calling of our church- to reach those that are lost and tell them of the love of Christ.

I hope anyone looking into this will take everything with a grain of salt and see for themselves.

And no... I'm not in ministry for my church, just a member who would like for anyone interested to here another point of view. I've always felt loved at my church and they are NOT an occult. Just people trying to live what they preach. Pators included.