It bothers me that those who chose to remain at TPC think that those of us who left might believe they are stupid for staying. That could not be further from the truth. Or at least it is the truth for the people we know and have socialized with.

Whether we agree or not does not change the fact that those of us who left TPC still think of our brothers and sisters at TPC as family. I may not always agree with everything my biological family says, does, or believes but that certainly does not mean that I don't love them. The same goes for the family we left behind at TPC. I haven't heard a single person who left say anything different either. It was only after much investigation, prayer, and discussion that my husband and I left TPC. Not because we loved our TPC family any less, we left because of a difference opinion with the vision, direction, and teaching of Pastor Mike Villamor and the negative influences we felt had gained a stronghold in the church that once made the enemy flee and hide when two or more members gathered. We do not believe that is the case now.

No one thinks those who chose to stay are stupid.

The difference in opinion between Pastor Tony Cunningham and his once robust 3500 member flock caused 87% of his flock to leave. I doubt if any of those who left harbored thoughts that those who didn't leave with them were stupid. They disagreed with Pastor Tony Cunningham's vision, teachings, and direction and 87% of the church left.

The disagreements causing people to leave in both cases were disagreements with the Senior Pastor. The reasons to leave had nothing to do with negative attitudes towards members who did not share a call to leave the church they once called home. At TPC it also had to do with disagreements with a group of Elders who think their job is to honor Pastor Mike and not protect the body of the church from the out of control ambition of a senior pastor who views his congregation as nothing more than wallets or "butts in seats" [Pastor Mike's own words from the 101 class I attended].

For that matter, I have not had a personal conversation with anyone who does not still love Pastor Mike and every single one of the elders. The problem is with their actions and attitudes. Some of us feel they have lost their way, and like the Prodigal Son we want them to find their way back home again. None of us has forgotten that Jesus told us to love one another. I cannot find a single scripture that says that we only have to love only those persons we agree with 100% of the time. We do not have to agree on everything to love one another. When we love one another despite our differences in opinion and beliefs then we are listening and following the Word of God.

Daughter of Dorcas



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2009 03:29AM by Daughter of Dorcas.

It's been a rough week. I don't really have anything grand to share, I'm not very eloquent in speaking (or typing, lol). But I just needed to get a few things off my chest.

I'm torn up about my friends and family who are hurting. My heart breaks when I think about the torment that many are going through. The decision to leave TP is a difficult one....made even more difficult when couples disagree.

We need to be praying for our brothers and sisters in Christ. Marriages are struggling (some are even ending), and lives are at risk. I personally know more than one that is questioning their own sanity. Are these things directly related to what's going on at TP? I, personally, don't think it's just a coincadence.

I've been in a confrontation this week, over the things at TP. It's a difficult place to be in.

As DofD said, it seems that people at TP think that those of us who've left believe that they are stupid. I've heard this from a number of people. The common statement seems to be "I'm not stupid. I will leave if I believe there is a problem." There is also the misconception that people are leaving "lightly". THat they don't have all the info, aren't willing to get it, and just being judgemental. I knew that people would *think* things about me, for leaving. I knew that it would hurt....but it sucks just the same.

SOMA students need our prayers too...now, I believe, more than ever. I'm not at liberty to share the details, but the current teachings are so far from the truth, that it's sickening. I am in agreement with others, that Pastor Mike has lost his mind!

Oh God, hear our prayers. Remove the veil that blinds your children. I pray for clarity of mind, for reconciliation of families, for unity in marriages. I pray for repentance, God, that your people would return to their first love, Jesus. God, in this this dark time, all we have is you. Draw your children back to your loving arms.......

What's behind the "I'm not stupid" statements?

Daughter of Dorcas said:
"It bothers me that those who chose to remain at TPC think that those of us who left might believe they are stupid for staying. That could not be further from the truth. Or at least it is the truth for the people we know and have socialized with."

Brokenhearted said:
As DofD said, it seems that people at TP think that those of us who've left believe that they are stupid. I've heard this from a number of people. The common statement seems to be "I'm not stupid. I will leave if I believe there is a problem."

*****

First of all, where did the idea of anyone thinking anyone is stupid come from?

Was it the comparison to lemmings? Well, lemmings may NOT BE stupid animals, but they DO stupid things. In a similar vein, the Bible compares us to sheep, which also do stupid things and are, for that reason, often considered to be stupid animals as well. What are we all going to say to that? The Bible says, "All we LIKE SHEEP have gone astray, we have turned every one to his own way."

People do stupid things. People do foolish things. The Bible identifies foolish people by their foolish actions. Guess what? We're all foolish at times! I have identified myself as foolish on this site--foolish when I didn't heed the Holy Spirit's promptings. I will tell my story soon and show you just HOW foolish I was. You can substitute the word "stupid" for "foolish" and it will all turn out the same. In fact, one of Jeff Barnes's favorite verses--I believe it is Proverbs 12:1--has the word "stupid" in it, and it's relevant to our purposes here, too: "Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid."

Is it stupid to ignore warnings and refuse to research the information behind them? Is it? If you were in a raft heading toward Niagra Falls and someone was shouting from shore warning you of the danger, wouldn't you be stupid not to at least pull your boat to the shore and investigate before venturing on? Yes or no?

Has not the preponderance of tone and information on here been out of concern, care, and love for those who remain under the influence of false teaching and an unbiblical authoritarian church leadership that lacks accountability? Even if it is stupid to stay in a setting like that (I cannot be the judge of it), we have never said as much here. If people worry that we think they are stupid, then they are wasting their worry on speculative notions that just aren't true, which reveals their insecurity and lack of maturity. And even if someone on here did think it was stupid to stay, how can this opinion possibly matter? C'mon, everyone! This spiritual emergency is way beyond whether someone thinks you're stupid or not. What does GOD THINK? WHAT IS HE TELLING YOU? It's the only thing that matters, EVER!

Honestly, such a worry (about whether or not someone thinks this or that about us) is based in PRIDE. When I worry about what other people think of me, it's my pride that's balking. Nothing else. We need to lay it down and get down to the real business of what's true and what's not. So, if you KNOW you've done your homework and you still feel good about staying at TP, then that's between you and God. You'll give an answer to HIM one day, not to anyone on this forum. Buck up and take responsibility for yourself. I love you. I want you to do well, to prosper in Christ, not languish in some man's unbiblical idea of prosperity. That's why I post on here. I know people still at TP whom I love and pray for, and I don't think they're stupid. But I would say that if they are ignoring warnings, that's definitely foolish--or stupid, if you will.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2009 12:58PM by LearningPoint.

Is a man stupid b/c he is blind and can not see?

I pray for my brothers and sister in love. I am saddened that they can not see. I worry about their safety. I do not think that they are stupid.

Quote
Brokenhearted
Is a man stupid b/c he is blind and can not see?

I pray for my brothers and sister in love. I am saddened that they can not see. I worry about their safety. I do not think that they are stupid.

To venture a response to your very good question--Is a man stupid because he cannot see?--I guess it depends on WHY a person remains blind. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for being blind guides--the eye salve was right in front of them, but they refused to apply it. (I have no doubt He loved them, even as he rebuked their stubbornness.)

For myself, I believe its foolish/stupid for me to stay blind on purpose--to cover my eyes and ears when I don't want to hear what might upset my apple cart. But as for those who are naive and ignorant and have not heard any kind of warning, these are not in the dark on purpose and are the ones I'm most deeply concerned for at Turning Point. But I'm pretty sure all of us on here are praying for and love all involved--even the ones who might be choosing to shut their eyes and ears to warnings.

But a strong word, a call to reality, a rebuke even, is not unloving if it's from a loving heart. If I start to scream and yell warnings at my friend or neighbor ready to go over Niagra Falls, I am loving them the best way I can at that point. I would only think they were foolish (but with an inconsolable grief in my heart) if they heard me and waved me off and perished.

BUT, as you said, in essence, Brokenhearted, we are not casting "stupid stones" at anyone. The only person I can throw such a stone at is myself, and yet--wonder of wonders--I find that the grace of God has carried me to repentance and toward healing from my very own foolishness. Our All-Wise God is in the business of rescuing us from our foolishenss and stupidity. What a relief!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2009 03:39AM by LearningPoint.

Yes learningpoint! I will even confess to much frustration at times, b/c of people who are choosing to be blind.

I agree with the proverbial frogs, I think sometimes that's why the problems at TP are so difficult to see from the inside, but so clear from the outside.

One of the things that I have found interesting lately, is that TP has gone from a point where nobody talked about anything, now to where everyone seems to be talking about everything. It seems that the rumor mill is running wild, but the *gossip* that's being tossed around is not rooted in truth. Everyone seems to *suspect* everyone else. People are litterally *butting into* other people's business (and not in a good way). TP is no longer a safe place. It's so very sad to me.

Quote
Brokenhearted
One of the things that I have found interesting lately, is that TP has gone from a point where nobody talked about anything, now to where everyone seems to be talking about everything. It seems that the rumor mill is running wild, but the *gossip* that's being tossed around is not rooted in truth. Everyone seems to *suspect* everyone else. People are litterally *butting into* other people's business (and not in a good way). TP is no longer a safe place. It's so very sad to me.

Wow! So the pendulum swings from the extreme of communication lockdown to an overflow of lies and suspicions. Sadly, isn't that just the way it works in our lives? We're frequently falling off on one side or the other of the "narrow way" when we try to manage things according to our own fleshly tendencies. The good thing is that at least information (even if it's not of the best kind) is flowing. Don't you think? Of course, it seems worse than the lockdown at first, but talking is better than not talking--that's not to minimize the ugliness of what happens when people don't know how to have healthy and fruitful discussions. But the reality is that all of this underlying stuff was not absent from Turning Point before, it was just latent or hidden. So really, TP has not been a safe place for some time, maybe not ever for some people.

It's like many of us who grew up in dysfunctional families (what family is not dysfunctional? but I mean dysfunctional in a crippling way). As long as everyone was quiet and "stayed in line" with the power at hand, the problems and apparent damage could be minimized or hidden. As soon as one soul started to call for truth and light, though, that person was deemed to be the problem because of the resulting turbulence. But the one who demands truth and light ends up at least finding freedom for themselves and very often helping others find it as well. I hope this forum has been that kind of help, even if the initial chaos of calling for truth is not pretty.

Betrayal, deceit, and abuse, are behaviors like those you would find in a work of fiction on the New York bestselling novel list. But it is not. Those are what Pastor Mike and the Elders have perpetrated on the body of TPC. The narcissism of Pastor Mike and the Elders complicity in deceiving the members of TPC is nothing short of betraying God and our Savior Jesus Christ.

Double honor for Pastor Mike, the man does not deserve single honor let alone double honor. None of the elders at Turning Point Church have conducted themselves in a way that according to the Bible would qualify them to be Elders.

Pastor Mike wants a mega church so he can live a mega life style. He doesn’t care about his flock. All the members of TPC are to him are wallets and checkbooks to finance the life to which he wants to be accustomed. Mike and the Elders can’t even be considered hirelings. There is a wolf loose at TPC and his name is Mike Villamor. Why are the students at SOMA paying money to take a class so they can give him praise? I have heard his apostolic ministry class referred to as “the honor and worship Pastor Mike class.” You might as well close the doors and sell the property to pay off whatever debt is still owed because quite soon there won’t be anyone left to listen. The people that remain will figure it out sooner or later and then they too will walk away. Those that left did not cause disunity; it was caused by Pastor Mike and the Elders. No consultant is going to be able to fix this mess for Pastor Mike, it is to little to late.

I was talking with a friend today about TP and filled her in on what is going on and why we left. She does not go there and never has. She told me about someone she knew that had gone there and this person had cancer. The church never helped her out at all. My friend asked her if the Pastor knew she had cancer and she said yes Mike knew but never visited with her or helped in any way. My friend told her she should find a church that would be there for her and support her and help her out. Well this person ended up moving away to another State. So that story reminded me about Mary's husband that was one of the deacons that passed away and Pastor Mike never would go to the hospital to see him. Way to go Mike & Cindy. Great way to look after your flock. I can't believe that a Pastor could be so heartless. Just another confimatiion for you people out there that may be questioning what is going on at Turning Point. When it comes from someone that didn't even know what was going on at the church. I just want the word to get out so no one else will get sucked in to Turning Point lies and deception.

Outreach

Hi Outreach,

I was talking to my family about Pastor Mike and his refusal to visit Mitch when he was so close to death, my mother was shocked, she has never attended TPC. Her remark was that one of the responsibilities of a pastor is to give comfort to the sick and their families in times like that. She could not believe that any pastor would "refuse to be sent for." Her final statement was "doesn't sound like much of a pastor to me." When my sister in law was fatally ill two pastors, not just the senior pastor, was there to give comfort to my sister in law and all the family. That is what real pastors do. When my grandparents and aunts were about to pass their pastors were there too. I have never seen a pastor cut himself off from his flock. I have never seen a pastoral staff demand double honor let alone tie it to money. The more you look at the pastoral behavior of traditional pastors and that of Pastor Mike, I just don't see the behavior of a pastor whose sole purpose is to watch over and care for his flock.

Daughter of Dorcas