hi orange -

By subjective I mean that how one perceives things can be colored by their childhood, an abusive husband, an overbearing father, genes, etc.
Sometimes how we see things, or how we were raised, or what kind of people we were raised around, or were/are married to can affect how we see everything, including a pastor. Some people end up attributing the problems in their life to a convenient source, and this kind of projection can be incredibly subjective. But it can be understandable. It happens all the time.

As for your second question, I think that's an issue between the believer and God. I think the simplest answer would be to pray for answers. God always answers in His time. I think there has been, and I get this from reading many message board discussions, not just this one, a tendency of many who relate bad experiences with the church to create a kind of bubble world in which Thieme is made out to be God himself. I think it's a result of thinking horizontally (all thoughts directed toward Thieme, their family, other church members, the circumstances they find theirselves in), instead of vertically (thinking God-directed, asking question of God concerning guidance and direction). I think Thieme, Jr., if he were able to answer right now, would completely agree. As 1 Cor 2:13 says, the Spirit teaches us, meaning that whatever is true in the content of the message of the pastor, the Spirit will teach us. If there is something erroneous, it does not get taught (in the spiritual, not academic sense). If there is some reason that we feel like we are not learning as we should, God is there to guide us. It's a matter of faith in the omnipotence of God. I really wish many of those who have had bad experiences with the church in the past could hear Bobby's sermons. He really gives insight into a lot of these issues, and a lot of things that occurred in the past, and why his father was attacked so many times.

Another thought that sometimes never occurs to people: If a man was truly a great man of God, and taught the Bible accurately as few ever have, would he not be subject to massive persecution from Satan?

As far as I know, nothing happens to anybody who leaves the church. Now, I can't speak for wives of psycho husbands or children of abusive fathers, and I'm sure there are enough of these kinds of stories around, but nobody from the church, pastors, deacons, etc. ever ever give you a hard time if you leave, or try to coerce you to stay. I don't know what others in the congregation think of those who leave, I've never really thought about that kind of thing. As far as I'm concerned, I wish them all the happiness in the world.

Many have left for a number of reasons, just like any other church. They moved, they lost faith, the got bored, something else in life distracted them. Some, I think, want the excitement of an emotional type sermon. As anyone who has ever sat in the church can attest to, the messages are mechanistic and intricate, not emotional or feel-good. Personally, I love this. I feel I am coming to know God by learning what His Word says, not by having an emotional experience. For 53 years Thieme stood in the pulpit and taught, sometimes as many as 7 classes a week, despite endless persecution, failing health...I couldn't begin to go into what he has been through. And he remained faithful to the Word as few other people I have ever seen in my life.

Some leave over doctrinal differences. The church has been split into many factions in the past, sometimes large portions of the congregation have up and left, sometimes to form other churches. I don't see anything wrong with leaving, but some bad times have definitely occured when factions were present in the church, gossipping and maligning and playing king of the mountain.

Again, I think the issue of whether one leaves Berachah or any church, has to do with one question. Do you think the pastor, regardless of his personality, is teaching accurate doctrine, and are you learning under this pastor in a way that is spiritually edifying to you? If the answer is no, as even Bobby would tell you, then by all means, find somone you can grow under.

"If a man was truly a great man of God, and taught the Bible accurately as few ever have, would he not be subject to massive persecution from Satan?"

You sound like David Koresh, that's something he would have said to convince his followers to ignore criticism.

You must be a real diehard follower of this ministry.

hi rrmoderator -

Well, that may or may not be something David Koresh might say, but the point is taken from a Biblical perspective. For instance, Paul was the subject of massive persecutions, many directed from the source of Satan. Satan, and this is a major doctrine of the Bible apparent from even an English reading, seeks to deceive and manipulate humankind. He doesn't want us knowing truth. It's a logical thought that if someone were to come along that spoke truth, that that target would be hit hard by Satan. At least to me, this makes perfect sense. I'm trying to follow a Biblical thought through logically, not convince anyone to ignore any criticism of Thieme. All things have to be considered, but sometimes people slander subjectively, or without proper information.

If one doesn't believe in the Bible, I guess this argument is mute, however. (This is a general statement, btw, not directed at anyone personally).

Attempting to hide behind the bible and dismiss criticism as somehow "satanic" is a common practice of groups called "cults" that manipulate the bible and Christian beliefs.

Frankly, it's not a "logical thought" to blame "Satan" for criticism, but rather a way that many cult members dismiss anything they don't want to deal with.

Taken within this context it's a very telling remark.

ephesians, thankyou for your detailed post.
How long have you attended the church?

hi again rr -

I think my last post to this board didn't go through, so readers may not understand your response. Can it be posted?

I'm just relating Biblical doctrine. Paul was persecuted severely of Satan. The New Testament is rife with this. Paul was a tremendous man of God, obviously. I'm following a syllogism that would go something like:

If Paul was a great man of God, and Satan persecutes great men of God, then it follows that if Thieme can be considered likewise, Satanic persecution of Thieme is understandable.

Please understand, I'm not saying that [i:248499cab8]ALL[/i:248499cab8] criticism of Thieme should be understood as Satanic, or from the source of Satan. I didn't mean to give that impression.

Again, various cults may or may not use this defense when their sect is attacked. I can't speak for them.

hi again orange -

I grew up in Houston, but currently live on the east coast, and listen to the CDs. I have been listening about 20 years.

All your posts up to this one have been approved and are up.

ephesians,

thanks again.

Interesting to hear you compare Thieme to the Apostle Paul and those that criticize him to Satan.

No. Most "cults" that claim to use the bible as their basis typically will resort to the exact same defense.

In fact Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons often use the same defense.

rrmoderator -

If someone has made up their mind that an organization is a cult, then anything said in it's defense will be viewed skeptically. I understand your point of view, but the difference between JW's/Mormons and Thieme is in their doctrinal teachings. I'll always stick with the what the Bible says above all else.

I also want to clarify that I don't think anyone was as great, spiritually, or doctrinally, as the apostle Paul. But I do think Thieme was a great teacher, and that my syllogism makes sense. It was meant as something to think about, not as a critical attack. And again, I don't want my comment to be misconstrued as me thinking that [i:76387d1c0b]ALL[/i:76387d1c0b] criticism of Thieme is Satanic.

By the way, to be fair, what I have said is probably used by many members of many denominations, not just those somebody would consider cultish, for instance Southern Baptists or Church of Christ. I know I've heard it more than a few times. Also, many consider Christianity itself to be a cult, and those who believe in it to be brainwashed.

orange -

no problem!

At this point, I think I'll bow out, and let whoever would like to have the last word have it. My point in posting was to clear up some misinformation and give the other side of things, not to engage in endless debate. We all have to live the best lives we can unto the Lord, and do what we feel is the right thing to do in our spiritual lives, and this includes finding teachers that we feel edify us in a manner that helps us to grow in a way others can't. That's about all we can do.