To the Forum:
To the Forum:
Thieme quote: "The spiritual gift of pastor-teacher must be exercised with authority (Tit. 2:15); therefore, monologue, not dialogue is the order of teaching"
"Grace Apparatus for Perception" by RB Thieme jr [www.mustseethisone.com
Understanding God's Government By Paul W. Syltie quote: "All Authority Inserted into Titus 2:15: The KJV reads: "These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee". In English, it sounds like Paul is telling Titus that he has "all authority" over the brethren-as a king or dictator might. The Greek words for "all authority" are pas and epitage. The latter word is used five other times in the New Testament (Rom 16:26, 1 Cor 7:6.24; 2Cor 8:8, 1Tim1:1, Tit1:3). In all these cases epitage is translated "commandement" and refers to a. commandement of the Eternal. The incorrect use of "authority" makes it sound like Titus was the rebuking authority, not the Eternal commandments. Also, the Greek pas is translated "every" 117 out of 1.243 times. When pas is used with a word that trepresents a "class of items", pas refers to "every itme in the class." This verse would be much more consistently translated if it said "rebuke with every commandment". Titus was correct the brethren using every commandement of the Father and Christ.
The Syltie quote is consistent with scripture and the authority hierarchy set forth by Jesus.
Dr. Wall: [www.texaswalls.org
]Basic view. First, he has an unbalanced view of spiritual authority. Pastoral or elder leadership authority extends to the overseeing of the operation of church ministries, the maintenance of sound teaching in the local church and the protection of the believers' souls from false doctrine (I Pet. 5:2; Acts 20:28, 29; Heb. 13:17). It clearly involves leadership by example, not by lording over or "bullying" the flock (I Pet. 4:3; Heb. 13:7). Thieme has added to these clear biblical directions. He claims that he must be the final source of doctrine for all in his flock, and that the individual believer cannot study Scripture for himself. Not only does the Scripture not teach such a view of doctrinal learning, but it teaches the opposite. Spiritual growth, Paul says in Ephesians 4, involves two major ingredients that are contrary to the Thiemite doctrine: first, the gift of pastor-teacher is an equipping gift (verse 12, katartismon) designed to prepare all believers (the saints) for doing the job of ministering and edifying; second, maturing takes place as all the members of the body minister the truth of God to one another in love (verses 15, 16), not just one select, gifted person.
Second, he confuses faith in biblical truth with a faith in a particular teacher (i.e. one's right pastor). At no time does Scripture exhort the believer to single out one particular teacher as his final doctrinal authority. On the contrary, there is precedence for diversity of teachers. At Antioch the thriving, missionary church was ministered to by five prophets and teachers (Acts 13: 1). Ephesus had both the personal and epistolary ministries of both Paul and John, and also had the ministry of Apollos and of the elders of Ephesus (Acts 18:24-28; 20:17-35). In 3 John, the apostle condemns Diotrophes for attempting to lord it over the flock, forcing division between his followers and other teachers in the body of Christ. Thieme's right pastor doctrine could very well be called the "Diotrophes doctrine."
I said once I'll say it again " YOU QUESTION THE PERFECT AUTHORITY OF JESUS, IF YOU DO NOT QUESTION THE CORRUPT AUTHORITY OF THIEME!
2 Corinthians 1:24 is a very clear indication by Paul that elders DO NOT HAVE SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY over other christians. This is in direct contradiction of Thieme's false doctrine of "right pastor"
2 Corinthians 1:24 King James Bible "Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
2 Corinthians 1:24 Young's Literal Translation "not that we are lords over your faith, but we are workers together with your joy, for by the faith ye stand."
You stand by faith, not puffed up knowledge.
Also, Vine writes that epitage differs from the usual word for authority, exousia, and denotes a commandment.
Vine, W E: Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. 1996.
And also Greek pas (Strong's #3956) in the UBS Greek Dictionary is:"(1) without the article each, every (plkata. all); every kind of; all, full, absolute, greatest; (2) with the article entire, whole; all ( pa/j o` with ptc. everyone who); (3) everyone, everything ( dia. panto,j always, continually, forever; . pa,nta in everything, in every respect).
There is no article present, and pas is in the singular.
Again this seems to be the case that each commandment or every commandment is the right translation.
If you read Titus for yourself you see that Paul is passing on the message to Titus "to teach" the commandments of God to the flock, not "to command" the flock.
Correct and teach the flock with every commandment of God, not command and ram the flock with a false notion of an false spiritual authority of a pastor gift or teacher gift.
Matthew 28:18 and many other verses says that Jesus has all power over heaven and earth. How can a pastor or teacher exercise "all authority" when they do not have all authority, when Jesus has all authority?
The spiritual gifts of pastor and teacher, as with all gifts, it seems clear to me all gifts are exercised with faith, not corrupt authority.
Also in Dr. Wall's dissertation (above mentioned) 1 Peter 4:3 I think there is a typo in Dr. Wall's dissertation and what was really meant was 1 Peter 5:3, not 1 Peter 4:3. King James Bible 1 Peter 5:3 "Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock".