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Thieme quote: "...Where did they get this? Well really they get it from the same old Hegelian fallacy that caused so many American POWs in the Korean War to be brainwashed...."
[www.4shared.com]

Thieme quote: Indeed, the Soviets have adopted Satan’s two-faced strategy almost straight off the forbidden tree, except that instead of “good and evil’ they call it the “Hegelian theory of change": thesis plus antithesis equals synthesis. Their “thesis” is pacifism, peaceful coexistence, disarmament, cultural exchange, detante—anything that sounds like peace, brotherhood, goodwill. Christian Integrity II by Thieme jr.

Thieme quote: Many people give up, as the old expression says, “when the first shot is fired.” They give up simply because of what they think. The Russians know this and have so effectively exploited psychological warfare in the United States that they have neutralized the mental attitude of the American people. How can we counter this move? The only answer is found in the Bible. A nucleus of believers with divine viewpoint can turn the tide. Mental Attitude Dynamics by Thieme Jr.

What Thieme is really saying is "A nucleus of believers brainwashed by Thieme's rhetoric can turn the tide", against communism.

Is not Thieme reducing the jobs of the Holy Spirit and Pastors to just "brainwashing the christian?" to fight communism?, to those thiemites who are brainwashed by Thieme? As an automaton of brainwashing how does that really work with "Study to show thyself approved unto God"? Is not a human brainwashing devoid of truthful independent study? Independent study is not a necessity for human brainwashing. The coercion and breakdown of critical faculties for independent study are in fact required for human brainwashing. The chastisement and breakdown (and eventual death) of the christian is not the job or responsibility of the pastor, that is the "perfect" work and "perfect authority", of the Holy Spirit.

For those thiemites who subscribe to Thieme's definitions of "human good/evil", how is "human" good/evil less or more "human" than "human" brainwashing? Human brainwashing is a "human" product, just as "human good/evil" is a human product. Brainwashing is not a biblical "breakthrough". Brainwashing (coercive interrogation and it's effects) has been used throughout the ages. Recent discoveries by Dr. Lifton (Air Force officer and psycologist during the 1950's) of "brainwashing" of Korean POWs and it's effects are "human psycological breathroughs", not "biblical breakthroughs".

Thieme's theory of fighting communism has failed in anycase, it is corporate failures of the American political elite who are borrowing money from communist China, which is "selling out" America and putting America in debt to communism. It is the American corporate elite who are "giving up" and "selling out" “when the first shot is fired”, by putting America into debt to communist China.

Thieme quote: Indeed, the Soviets have adopted Satan’s two-faced strategy almost straight off the forbidden tree, except that instead of “good and evil’ they call it the “Hegelian theory of change": thesis plus antithesis equals synthesis. Their “thesis” is pacifism, peaceful coexistence, disarmament, cultural exchange, detante—anything that sounds like peace, brotherhood, goodwill. Christian Integrity II by Thieme jr.

Is not Thieme twisting interpretations of bible text and "forming" a "coercive brainwashing message" to attack anything that is human? in an effort to fight communism? To create a predjudiced seared conscience against anything human, excepting for human brainwashing by his rhetoric? Yes he does. He admits as much.

Thieme can be said to be using the "Hegelian dialectic" himself. "Hegelian theory of change": thesis plus antithesis equals synthesis. Thieme's thesis is "American churches must support corporate profits of the American political elite and the MIC. Antithesis equals "anything pro-human especially liberal christian churches' biblical translations support no financial profit", synthesis equals "brainwash the Christian through coercive interpretations for the American corporate elite's profits."

It is noteworthy that Christianity "flourished" under Roman Imperial persecution. Obviously, it is not desireable to be persecuted. The point being "God is in control", in times of victory or defeat. The Bible should be translated truthfully regardless of which side of the politically/profit margin line it falls on.



Truthtesty



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2008 11:06PM by Truthtesty.

To the Forum:


Thieme qoute: And being "brainwashed" with His Thinking! (Eph_5:26-27) Christian Integrity by RB Thieme

No where in Ephesians 5:26, 27 does it refer to "brainwashing".

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

It (26) doesn't say "brainwashing" by the word, nor does it say "washing of brain by the word".

It says (26) That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

This is about love, not brainwashing. This is about the church being sanctified (set apart), being cleansed and presented faultless.

Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 6, Page 50 : In His conversation with the woman of Samaria, Christ spoke of the water He would give as “living water,” which living water is foreshadowed in the type as running water. The Holy Spirit is typified by water and this body of truth is indeed extensive. As water is essential for cleansing, satisfying, reviving, and refreshing, so the Holy Spirit is vital to the child of God...


Truthtesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2008 09:43AM by Truthtesty.

I tired to post once before
I am not wanting to debate theology. My son, who was once loving and friendly, involved in Christian ministry and church is now critical, mistrusting and depressed. I believe that his problems began when he started feeding on the Thieme tapes and became isolated and seeing people in churches, except Thieme churches, as wrong and not saved if they had "repented, felt sorry for their sin, walked and isle, etc." He has even told my husband and I that we are probably not saved or in "reversionism" because we do not agree with some of the Theime doctrines. I do believe that he has been brain washed, though he chose to listen to the tapes, and he in some way equates believing God and believing everything Thieme says as one in the same. If that is not mind control, I don't know what is. We love our son and want to help him. After eight long years of seeing this affect his life, I am looking for someone who has either left on their own or with help. He is a wonderful young man with so much God-given potential, but is stuck in an intake mode of "Bible doctrine" and seeing any kind of socializing, service or ministry as self-serving. Please, I do not want to hear from anyone who wants to argue theology. I have read Joe Wall's dissertation so I know this teahching has affected other individuals and families adversely.

Quote
hurting mother
I tired to post once before
I am not wanting to debate theology. My son, who was once loving and friendly, involved in Christian ministry and church is now critical, mistrusting and depressed. I believe that his problems began when he started feeding on the Thieme tapes and became isolated and seeing people in churches, except Thieme churches, as wrong and not saved if they had "repented, felt sorry for their sin, walked and isle, etc." He has even told my husband and I that we are probably not saved or in "reversionism" because we do not agree with some of the Theime doctrines. I do believe that he has been brain washed, though he chose to listen to the tapes, and he in some way equates believing God and believing everything Thieme says as one in the same. If that is not mind control, I don't know what is. We love our son and want to help him. After eight long years of seeing this affect his life, I am looking for someone who has either left on their own or with help. He is a wonderful young man with so much God-given potential, but is stuck in an intake mode of "Bible doctrine" and seeing any kind of socializing, service or ministry as self-serving. Please, I do not want to hear from anyone who wants to argue theology. I have read Joe Wall's dissertation so I know this teahching has affected other individuals and families adversely.

To Hurting Mother:

Nearly everyone here has left Thieme, either on his or her own or with help. In the end, only God can reach in and touch the damaged soul injured by false teaching. Your love and prayer can make a real difference in your son's life, but you should be prepared for a long, hard struggle to remain patient and to strive to keep the doors of communication open between you and your son.

In my case, it was ALL GOD and ONLY GOD who rescued me. Nobody around me even knew I was in trouble from this teaching. I did not know it myself. I was totally sold to the teaching of Thieme as Bible Doctrine. After many years of this I was completely exhausted as a human being and stopped functioning in life. I was absolutely depressed and paralyzed. This went on for a long time and I am sure that others looking on from outside had no idea what was really going on. At least you have the advantage of knowing the heart of the problem and can pray intelligently.

When God knew the right time had come, He sent some of His other servants my way with truth that began to set me free. I was AFRAID to leave, AFRAID to read books by others than Thieme, but CLASSIC CHRISTIANITY by Bob George was the first one God used in my life to begin untangling me from the lethal legalistic teachings I had been a slave to. Might I suggest that you obtain this book and read it as a background to a great deal more learning you will need to do to help extract your son from the snare with which he has been entrapped?

You mention that you don't want to discuss theology. Sooner or later you will have to do this with your son and begin to be able to refute what Thieme has drummed into his head. He has been taught that he cannot read the Bible for himself to get truth from God and that only Thieme can do that: that is, feed him truth because of his "expertise" in the languages of Scripture etc. Your son has been taught to despise the lazy stupid other pastors out there, and that God will KILL HIM IF HE LEAVES BIBLE DOCTRINE. He must get that DAILY TAPE in to keep God from imposing the sin unto death upon him. It is an endless maze of threats and promises, none of which really pan out in life and they all center on the mixed truth and error ministry of R.B.Thieme Jr.

God loves you and your son and wants you both to know His Love and Grace provided for you at the Cross of Jesus Christ. But Thieme has taught your son that God is a very impersonal Being whose demands are intricate and ever changing. The more your son listens to Thieme tapes, the more the demands develop into a Rube Goldberg device to keep him terribly busy with "Bible Doctrine" and to distract him from the Savior Himself.

Jesus warned the Pharisees that they had missed the living God standing before them while being completely sold out to the "Words of God" that they knew in the Old Testament. There is a reason God values His Words, and that reason is to reveal the One True and Living God in the Person of Jesus Christ. Thieme's studies purport to allow the believer to "know" Christ but what the studies really do is to focus entirely on the words of Thieme from the pulpit and gradually the lessons slip in "breakthroughs" Thieme has "discovered in the original languages" from time to time and these TAKE OVER the benefit that might be had otherwise from his ministry.

What your son will actually be hungering for is JESUS. What he is getting right now from Thieme is THIEME'S WORDS, with an enormous invented non biblical vocabulary which distracts from the actual contents of the Words of God given in the entire Bible. In order to help your son to see the differences between what Thieme says and what his Bible actually says you will have to patiently ask him to show you of his own knowledge in his Bible, his English Bible, Thieme's teachings, which you think are wrong and he thinks are right. The enormous time spent listening to Thieme is almost totallly wasted because it has deprived your son of his ability to come to his own conclusions from reading what the pages of Scripture actually say IN CONTEXT.

The first independent thought I had apart from Thieme when God began to woo me away was something like this:

"WHAT ABOUT ALL THESE WORDS AND DEFINITIONS THIEME USES THAT ARE NOT IN THE BIBLE? I WONDER IF THAT IS THE SAME THING AS TEACHING THINGS THAT ARE NOT THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE?"

ANSWER, from God: YES.

Somewhere along the line, your son will have to see SOMETHING that Thieme has said IS NOT TRUE ACCORDING TO THE PLAIN TEACHING OF THE BIBLE. For me, the crack in the Thieme dike was over the issue of FORGIVENESS, which was won for us at the cross of Christ, TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY retiring all our sin debt at one time forever. Thieme teaches that all our presalvation sins were forgiven when we are saved, but not our post salvation sins. He divides forgiveness into two categories not recognized by the Words of God and this is a device used TO CONTROL PEOPLE WITH FALSE FEAR AND FALSE GUILT. Your son spends his time "rebounding" constantly to hope he is "in fellowship" so God won't clobber him for failing to confess immediately any sin of thought word or deed, of commission or omission, and this is frankly IMPOSSIBLE TO DO and live a normal life, Christian or otherwise. It keeps the mind on sin, and this empowers the flesh to take over the life unrecognized and uncontrolled by the Spirit. There is a lot of heat and noise in the Thieme way of life, but NO POWER.

So my advice to you is CHALLENGE EVERYTHING BY THE WORDS OF GOD. Pick your battles and don't try to disprove everything at once. CONTEXT is key to meaning and understanding. God does not command us to submit to "experts in languages" as our final authority despite what Thieme teaches. He does not command us to learn Hebrew and Greek to get truth. We already have what we really need, the Words of God translated faithfully into our native language English. For me this is the King James Bible. Thieme says the NASB is the best, but HE CORRECTS THIS WITH HIS OWN PERSONAL "TRANSLATIONS" from his pulpit. He also slips in his personal breakthroughs which the Holy Spirit left out of Scripture till now.

I finally had to ask: HOW DID GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT MANAGE TILL THIEME CAME UPON THE SCENE? How did the saints of old maintain their testimonies and preserve the Words of God without Thieme to teach them or anyone like him as "experts in Hebrew and Greek"? So Thieme is not the answer or by any means the best or only Bible teacher in this generation to give the truth to the people of God. Far from it.

Please let us know how things are going with you. This is a long, and lonely fight you are engaged in. Read the whole thread here on Thieme. it is huge and some of it is hard to take, but there are invaluable testimonies of those who have been there before you, personal testimonies of those who lived for years and attended Berachah itself, "face to face" and know from the horses mouth the truth about Thieme and his ministry.

Listen to them all. Ask God what is for you to use to encourage your son to see that Thieme IS WRONG ABOUT A LOT. He is not the final authority much less the best.

PRAY PRAY PRAY for the Lord to reveal to you what He wants you to deal with and don't be surprised if He deals with YOU FIRST, THEN WITH YOUR SON.

Lovingly,
Sistersoap



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2008 01:26AM by sistersoap.

To hurting mother:

By Thieme's own rhetoric, you have the "spiritual authority" or "power" to order your son to stop.

Truthtesty

To Hurting Mother:

I am sorry about your son and I understand how difficult it can be to try and help someone in his position since several of my own family members also follow Thieme's teachings.

I think it is wise of you not to engage in a theological debate with him because of the convoluted complexity of Thieme's theology. Instead I would recommend that you give him a copy of the recent biography on Thieme entitled "R.B. Thieme, Jr., His Ancestry, His Life" by C.G. Hunt. This biography is a very straightforward and unbiased account of Thieme's life and family background, thoroughly substantiated with references. It does not address Thieme's Biblical teachings at all, but in accurately recording the events in Thieme's life, it brings to light the many lies Thieme has told about himself.

For example, Thieme did not come from a very wealthy family, nor did his father disinherit him because of his choice to go into the ministry. Thieme was not on the University of Arizona football or boxing team. The truth concerning his academic and military career is revealed. In addition Thieme violated Scripture when he promoted the selection of his son Bobby, who has been divorced 3 times, to replace him as pastor of Berachah Church.

The augument that "If Thieme would lie and exagerate his background to bring praise and admiration to himself, how could he could know the deep mysteries of God's Word and truthfully communicate them to others?", is hard to refute.

Best Wishes,
Mile2

Thanks to those of you that are responding to me. I am trying to work my way through previous posts, as recommended, and I see that this site is for people who are struggling or have struggled to free themselves or others from the mind control of these teachings. I have had some private messages and will continue to look for advice. I am and have been praying for my son.

To hurting mother:

Quote
Truthtesty
To hurting mother:
By Thieme's own rhetoric, you have the "spiritual authority" or "power" to order your son to stop.
Truthtesty

I offer this a a suggestion, to intentionally set up a conflict of authority with Thieme.

Thieme does not make distinction between his corrupt human authority and God's authority. This I think is a central lock on the prison door of your son's mind. What I think may also help is to also have your son explain Ephesians 5:21 "Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God". That is all Christians submitting one to another, not just everyone excepting the pastor. Thieme should have been outside the church thanking, submitting, and shaking hands with "God's heritage" after church. This will seem strange indeed to your son, but Thieme has no biblical basis for his creation of the false doctrine of "right pastor".

And as shown above (Thieme quote: A nucleus of believers with divine viewpoint can turn the tide. Mental Attitude Dynamics by Thieme Jr.) Thieme attempted to fight communism by setting up a mind controlled/brainwash christian enterprise designed as an antidote specifically for fighting the brainwashing of communism. Thieme's "interpretations" were laced with this in mind. This existed only in Thieme's mind, not in reality and it was experimental. Current historical events prove the experiment was fruitless.

To set up the brainwashing/mind control enterprise, he had to have the false authority of a cult leader, thus his false doctrine of "right pastor".

The best viewpoint Thieme ever had was a "Christian human viewpoint". Thieme's cart blanche attack "interpretations" on anything and everything human stemmed from Thieme's hatred for communism, not from the bible.



Truthtesty

To the Forum:

Some intresting reading:

Schwarz: He takes this from the Marxist-Hegelian terminology which teaches that there is a dialectical relationship in any situation. There are two forces in conflict with each other. There is the established force which is called positive, and there is a force seeking to destroy it which is called negative. Progress takes place in terms of the negation of the positive by the negative and ends with the destruction of the positive and a qualitative change. It is very complex; it is technical Hegelian-Marxist dialectical language, but negation of society essentially means its destruction.
[www.schwarzreport.org]

Thieme is not talking about spirituality that he learned from Dallas Theological Seminary and Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer. When Thieme tells you that you are to be "brainwashed with God's thoughts" and then tells you "what God's thoughts are", is the Thieme created structure of spirituality really about the positive and negative of the brainwashing of the Hegelian-Marxist dialectic?


As mentioned before Thieme was a speaker with Edward Hunter: [www.schwarzreport.org]

Brainwashing from pavlov to Powers by Edward Hunter pgs. 237-239

Confession

...Something intrinsic to communism make this confession phenomenon intrinsic to it; it can't exist without it... The meaning in confession then, as the Reds now use it, is agreement with the rules laid down and hence submission to the existing heirarchy. The implication in confession is submission to the domain.... The Reds have made it the most vital part of thier control mechanism. They do not have to tell people about the reflex attitude of submission in each confession. They merely insist that everyone perform this rite and go through the motions frequently enough for it to become second nature and ultimately apart of the person's mentality...What was of primary importance to the communists in p.o.w. camps was not the sincerity of conversion, but the much more practical goal of submission to thier authority...Each time a U.N. soldier stood up and used the words "I confess", his Red Masters were confident that in the back of his mind a tiny trace at least of this intrinsic content of the word would filter down, even if only subconciously. Each time he repeated it, they were certain a little more was being rubbed onto his mentality. The communists actually heard him say each time inthier double-talk "I submit"... "Confession" and "learning" constituted the daily routine of all brainwashing chambers. They are two sides of the brainwashing coin. This word "learning" like "confession" has a particular meaning to the Reds. By "learning" they mean communist indoctrination alone...The communists well know the corrosive effect of repetition on man's mind and reactions...The elements that go into brainwashing are intended to make the mind receptive to "learning" and to browbeat it into confession. "Learning" and "confession" are parallel rituals, for as the victim absorbs Marxist teaching, he is obliged to rid himself of the "burden" and "poisons" of his old ideas by "confession", "cleansing" his mind himself, achieving "mind reform". That is brainwashing for the masses...

I leave it to the individual to surmise for themselves if Thieme used and twisted this brainwashing model into Thieme's teaching.


Truthtesty



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2008 09:44AM by Truthtesty.

To the Forum:


Dr. Wall: However, much of these positive contributions is neutralized by the significant weaknesses we have observed in Thieme's system and exegesis. Fellowship is more than a state of Christian existence, and confession (or rebound) is more than a mechanical naming of sins. "Spirituality" and "filling of the Spirit" have a different connotation in Scripture than Thieme teaches, and one is not totally under the control and power of the indwelling Holy Spirit simply by confessing known sins; obedient yielding is also a requisite.
[www.texaswalls.org]


Truthtesty