Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
MiniMoe
()
Date: October 02, 2008 12:39AM
I have not had time to read all the posts on Thieme, but one thing that stands out is that the people that listened to him did not listen to anyone else or get balance from anyone else. No pastor/teacher is 100% correct in what they teach. It is up to us believers to listen, learn and make up our own mind as to what we chose to believe and not believe. I do listen to Theime, (not all the time), and from what I heard so far, he is very good on basic doctrine. If you can pull yourself out of the intensity and look at the big picture of what he is trying to teach, the messages are good and correct. I can see where it would be easy to get lost in the greek and lose perspective on the bigger picture of God and His plan for humanity and each one of us on a personal level.
The basics I know Theime is correct on are these principles:
1) Each one of us is personally responsible for our own salvation and our relationship with God. No one else can say we are saved or not..
2) Personal sin is not the issue concerning salvation or lack thereof. It is solely dependent on our attitude toward Christ and our individual acceptance of God's gift of salvation. Since personal sin is not the issue concerning salvation, then we can never be bad enough to lose our gift from God. (I personally have not worked through the idea of losing salvation when you change your attitude toward Christ... ie: actually telling Christ you no longer believe and reject Him.), but in the end if you can't be good enough to earn Salvation, you can't be bad enough to lose it either.
3) Once we are believers, our future relationship with God does depend on our taking responsibility or our sin and confessing them to Him, and that has nothing to do with emotions and guilt. God never told us to feel bad for our actions, He told us to confess and change our ways (repent).
Beyond that, we can learn how to live the christian life from many different sources. Thieme does teach good Bible doctrine, but it is important to understand that he is not the only source for knowledge. I think it is easy to get burnt out when you eat, sleep and breath intense doctrine. Besides, how do you know if his interpretation in relevant to you unless you challenge some of the ideas with what other people teach?
Like I mentioned earlier.... No one pastor/teacher is 100% correct in what they teach. Does that mean they are all full of crap? No. If that were the case, every church would be teaching the exact same thing. The important thing is the basics. If the basics are wrong, then believers have nothing to build on.
The key is Balance.
The basics I know Theime is correct on are these principles:
1) Each one of us is personally responsible for our own salvation and our relationship with God. No one else can say we are saved or not..
2) Personal sin is not the issue concerning salvation or lack thereof. It is solely dependent on our attitude toward Christ and our individual acceptance of God's gift of salvation. Since personal sin is not the issue concerning salvation, then we can never be bad enough to lose our gift from God. (I personally have not worked through the idea of losing salvation when you change your attitude toward Christ... ie: actually telling Christ you no longer believe and reject Him.), but in the end if you can't be good enough to earn Salvation, you can't be bad enough to lose it either.
3) Once we are believers, our future relationship with God does depend on our taking responsibility or our sin and confessing them to Him, and that has nothing to do with emotions and guilt. God never told us to feel bad for our actions, He told us to confess and change our ways (repent).
Beyond that, we can learn how to live the christian life from many different sources. Thieme does teach good Bible doctrine, but it is important to understand that he is not the only source for knowledge. I think it is easy to get burnt out when you eat, sleep and breath intense doctrine. Besides, how do you know if his interpretation in relevant to you unless you challenge some of the ideas with what other people teach?
Like I mentioned earlier.... No one pastor/teacher is 100% correct in what they teach. Does that mean they are all full of crap? No. If that were the case, every church would be teaching the exact same thing. The important thing is the basics. If the basics are wrong, then believers have nothing to build on.
The key is Balance.
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: October 02, 2008 08:29AM
To MiniMoe:
Thieme doesn't even get the majority of basics right from his teacher Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer. It is you who doesn't yet see the "big picture" of what Thieme taught. I would agree that no pastor is 100% correct, but that does not justify Thieme creating a destructive cult around his personality and rhetoric.
If you disagree would you mind explaining "the basics" of The Thieme quote: And being "brainwashed" with His Thinking! (Eph_5:26-27) Christian Integrity by RB Thieme?
Would you kindly show everyone where it says "being "brainwashed" with His Thinking! in Eph_5:26-27?
Ephesians 5:25-27
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Truthtesty
Thieme doesn't even get the majority of basics right from his teacher Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer. It is you who doesn't yet see the "big picture" of what Thieme taught. I would agree that no pastor is 100% correct, but that does not justify Thieme creating a destructive cult around his personality and rhetoric.
If you disagree would you mind explaining "the basics" of The Thieme quote: And being "brainwashed" with His Thinking! (Eph_5:26-27) Christian Integrity by RB Thieme?
Would you kindly show everyone where it says "being "brainwashed" with His Thinking! in Eph_5:26-27?
Ephesians 5:25-27
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Truthtesty
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: October 02, 2008 05:09PM
To MiniMoe:
You say balance is the key? You lay the blame for false information solely on the indivdual for the Thieme's false information. As if a lying deceitful pastor has no responsibility in the matter. While it is true that the individual Christian is responsibile to discern false doctrines, it is also true that a pastor is not to create lies and deceptions about doctrine.
You ask "how do you know if his interpretation in relevant to you unless you challenge some of the ideas with what other people teach?"
But? Thieme does not teach the individual christian to look outside the Thieme cult. Thieme teaches the opposite. Thieme's false cult doctrine of "right pastor" says that Thieme is the only right pastor for the individual Christian, if the indvidual begins to believe just 1 iota of what Thieme blathers.
Like I said posted before Thieme is false on confession. Dr. Wall quote:To the degree that these doctrines depend on the teachings of Chafer they are true to the scriptural emphasis. However, Thieme's modifications leave the believer with some wrong impressions, especially with regard to a mechanical view of confession and fellowship, an absolute view of the Spirit-filled life, and a view of the believer's responsibilities in living the Spirit-filled life that acknowledges only the need of confession to the exclusion of yielded obedience by faith.
That is yielded obedience to God, not Thieme. The Christian should no more waste thier time yielding to Thieme any more than Thieme yielded to the individual Christian. Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Eph 5:21
The extremist absolute distinction between what is Christian and what is human is unwarranted. The best view that Thieme ever could have had was a "Christian human view". Thieme did not have the totality of divine view, nor was Thieme capable of teaching the total divine view of God.
The message is not "good and correct" as you generalize. It is caustic and very misleading, though it is very difficult for most to discern at 1st.
You say you know?
You should spend more time reading posts on this site and look at the destruction of people's Christian lives before trying to offer uninformed misleading advice.
Truthtesty
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2008 05:16PM by Truthtesty.
You say balance is the key? You lay the blame for false information solely on the indivdual for the Thieme's false information. As if a lying deceitful pastor has no responsibility in the matter. While it is true that the individual Christian is responsibile to discern false doctrines, it is also true that a pastor is not to create lies and deceptions about doctrine.
You ask "how do you know if his interpretation in relevant to you unless you challenge some of the ideas with what other people teach?"
But? Thieme does not teach the individual christian to look outside the Thieme cult. Thieme teaches the opposite. Thieme's false cult doctrine of "right pastor" says that Thieme is the only right pastor for the individual Christian, if the indvidual begins to believe just 1 iota of what Thieme blathers.
Like I said posted before Thieme is false on confession. Dr. Wall quote:To the degree that these doctrines depend on the teachings of Chafer they are true to the scriptural emphasis. However, Thieme's modifications leave the believer with some wrong impressions, especially with regard to a mechanical view of confession and fellowship, an absolute view of the Spirit-filled life, and a view of the believer's responsibilities in living the Spirit-filled life that acknowledges only the need of confession to the exclusion of yielded obedience by faith.
That is yielded obedience to God, not Thieme. The Christian should no more waste thier time yielding to Thieme any more than Thieme yielded to the individual Christian. Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Eph 5:21
The extremist absolute distinction between what is Christian and what is human is unwarranted. The best view that Thieme ever could have had was a "Christian human view". Thieme did not have the totality of divine view, nor was Thieme capable of teaching the total divine view of God.
The message is not "good and correct" as you generalize. It is caustic and very misleading, though it is very difficult for most to discern at 1st.
You say you know?
You should spend more time reading posts on this site and look at the destruction of people's Christian lives before trying to offer uninformed misleading advice.
Truthtesty
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2008 05:16PM by Truthtesty.
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: October 04, 2008 09:27PM
To the Forum:
Another "basic" area where Thieme's cult indoctrination dysfunctionalizes the Christian, is anger. Thieme categorizes anger as a "metal attitude" sin.
There is no Ten commandment that states "Thou shalt not be angry".
The Bible simply says "Ephesians 4:26 "Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:"
"Be ye angry and sin not". The truth is that anger simply is not a sin. Anger is an emotion.
When a Christian confesses anger as a sin, in reality the Christian is confessing and submitting to Thieme's words and Thieme's false cult authority misapplied to God.and misapplied to the Christian. Continuous confession of anger results in the snowballling dysfunctionalization of the Christian's life. A self-applied and self-enforced "stumbling block". It is a psycological warfare against the "Christian human", falsely taught by Thieme and unwittingly applied by the misled Christian to the self of the misled Christian.
Repressed anger turns inward (internalization) and results in emotional dysfunction (self-hate, depression, ...), and possibly even suicide.
Expressing anger in a healthy manner is a necessary part of counseling and recovery.
Truthtesty
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2008 09:29PM by Truthtesty.
Another "basic" area where Thieme's cult indoctrination dysfunctionalizes the Christian, is anger. Thieme categorizes anger as a "metal attitude" sin.
There is no Ten commandment that states "Thou shalt not be angry".
The Bible simply says "Ephesians 4:26 "Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:"
"Be ye angry and sin not". The truth is that anger simply is not a sin. Anger is an emotion.
When a Christian confesses anger as a sin, in reality the Christian is confessing and submitting to Thieme's words and Thieme's false cult authority misapplied to God.and misapplied to the Christian. Continuous confession of anger results in the snowballling dysfunctionalization of the Christian's life. A self-applied and self-enforced "stumbling block". It is a psycological warfare against the "Christian human", falsely taught by Thieme and unwittingly applied by the misled Christian to the self of the misled Christian.
Repressed anger turns inward (internalization) and results in emotional dysfunction (self-hate, depression, ...), and possibly even suicide.
Expressing anger in a healthy manner is a necessary part of counseling and recovery.
Truthtesty
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2008 09:29PM by Truthtesty.
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: October 20, 2008 02:00AM
To the Forum:
quote MiniMoe: I have not had time to read all the posts on Thieme, but one thing that stands out is that the people that listened to him did not listen to anyone else or get balance from anyone else. No pastor/teacher is 100% correct in what they teach. It is up to us believers to listen, learn and make up our own mind as to what we chose to believe and not believe. I do listen to Theime, (not all the time), and from what I heard so far, he is very good on basic doctrine. If you can pull yourself out of the intensity and look at the big picture of what he is trying to teach, the messages are good and correct. I can see where it would be easy to get lost in the greek and lose perspective on the bigger picture of God and His plan for humanity and each one of us on a personal level.
The basics I know Theime is correct on are these principles:
1) Each one of us is personally responsible for our own salvation and our relationship with God. No one else can say we are saved or not..
2) Personal sin is not the issue concerning salvation or lack thereof. It is solely dependent on our attitude toward Christ and our individual acceptance of God's gift of salvation. Since personal sin is not the issue concerning salvation, then we can never be bad enough to lose our gift from God. (I personally have not worked through the idea of losing salvation when you change your attitude toward Christ... ie: actually telling Christ you no longer believe and reject Him.), but in the end if you can't be good enough to earn Salvation, you can't be bad enough to lose it either.
Truthtesty: It is about faith in Jesus as Saviour and His Works, not the work of the sinner. It is not "attitude". It is faith. This is close to Dispensational Theology as taught by Thieme's teacher Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (8 vol. Systematic Theology) who followed Dr. Scofield (Scofield Reference Bible) who followed Dr. Darby.
Minimoe quote: 3) Once we are believers, our future relationship with God does depend on our taking responsibility or our sin and confessing them to Him, and that has nothing to do with emotions and guilt. God never told us to feel bad for our actions, He told us to confess and change our ways (repent).
Beyond that, we can learn how to live the christian life from many different sources. Thieme does teach good Bible doctrine, but it is important to understand that he is not the only source for knowledge. I think it is easy to get burnt out when you eat, sleep and breath intense doctrine. Besides, how do you know if his interpretation in relevant to you unless you challenge some of the ideas with what other people teach?
Truthtesty: Thieme does not teach "good Bible doctrine". Thieme twisted the truth of the Dispensational Theology of Dr. Chafer, for Thieme's extremist right wing agenda of "brainwashing" Christiians with Thieme's rhetoric, to become elite robotic "brainwashed" special forces thiemites to fight Communism(and any human-favored social political party), with thiemites own "Christian humanity" dysfunctionalized. To make a stand against Communism or any imperialism is noble and our military has done a fine job throughout history protecting the Democratic Republic of the USA. However, to twist the truth of the Word of God to conform to Thieme's "human viewpoint" ie: "brainwashing" is simply lying and insulting to God. Note Jesus faced ultimate imperial political persecution in Rome, but Jesus did not twist the Word of God in that dire circumstance. Thieme dishonors Jesus by lying about the Word of God. Spiritual growth depends on faith in God, not man's false authoritatively dogmatic rhetoric.
Minimoe quote: Like I mentioned earlier.... No one pastor/teacher is 100% correct in what they teach. Does that mean they are all full of crap? No. If that were the case, every church would be teaching the exact same thing. The important thing is the basics. If the basics are wrong, then believers have nothing to build on.
Truthtesty: You think Thieme is correct on salvation? Think again. Thieme has continually and throughout misled people to believe thoughts which are not true about the efficacy of the Blood of Jesus and the physical death of Jesus. Like I posted before Thieme denys the efficacy of the literal Shed Blood of Christ, as taught by Lewis Sperry Chafer [forum.culteducation.com], Scofield and Darby. Another ex: Bauer Ardnt and Gingrich do not support Thieme's theory of the Blood of Christ. [forum.culteducation.com]. Another ex: Neither does Leon Morris [forum.culteducation.com] (Leon Morris is also listed in Bauer, Ardnt and Gingrich p.23.),. Neither did Dr. Walvoord [forum.culteducation.com]
How far will thiemites go to deny clearly what the Bible says for thier cult leader who obviously and clearly used false sources to support his false rhetoric and misled Christians about the Word of God? How far? Well Thieme has brainwashed thiemites to go against the grain of truth even to the point of being tortured.
Thieme's attack on the Blood of Christ, stems from Thieme's unjustified attack on "Christian humanity"(the humanity of Jesus and all Chrisitans) for Thieme's brainwashing program to create and train robotic soldiers to not act on human emotions(while being tortured), but strictly and soley for the reaction of the logic of resisting torture for the extreme right USA. Here Thieme conflates spirituality with resistance to torture for "expiating guilt". * Note the "human" behaviour of resisting torture is "ok" by Thieme, just not the other natural human behaviours of anger, etc...
Thieme quote: Young Americans in Hanoi learned fast. They made no deals. They learned that “meeting them half way” was the road to de¬gradation. My hypothetical young prison mate soon learned that impulses, working against the grain, are very important in political prisons, that one learns to enjoy fighting city hall, to enjoy giving the enemy upside-down logic problems, that one soon finds him¬self taking his lumps with pride and not merely liking but loving that tapping guy next door, the man he never sees, the man he bares his soul to after each torture session, until he realizes he is thereby expiating all residual guilt. Then he realizes he can’t be hurt and can’t be had as long as he tells the truth and clings to that forgiving band of brothers who are becoming his country, his family. [19] Christian Suffering by RB Thieme jr.
Truthtesty: Here Thieme is teaching thiemites "romantic" resistance not just to Communism, but to all humanity (note city hall and Thieme's multitude of attacks on Christian humanity, etc...). Us versus them.
And what does Thieme have behind door number 1 for the resistance to the human enemy for Thieme's extremist agenda? Well the grand prize is "expiating guilt ". Which guilt thiemites create and collect themselves, as they "listen" and "submit" to Thieme's false authority and deny the truth.
The problem with resisting torture is that if a nation does not apply the Geneva Convention, everyone breaks under the knife of torture anyhow and it is not ROMANTIC.
But that is one method of how Thieme brainwashes a thiemite to believe they are too shed the guilt of thier dysfunctional conscience, which Thieme and the unwitting thiemite cause thier own guilt in the 1st place.
If the basics are wrong thiemites do not have truth to build on. They have the cult of Thieme to experience with all it's "spiritual atrocities" and "Christian human" atrocities to dysfunctionalize on. If someone wants to learn Dispensational Theology then Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer is just one healthy suggestion. Thieme is not necessary for salvation, confession or Dispensational Theology. Thieme has managed to fumble all 3 of these BASICS.
Minimoe quote: The key is Balance.
Truthtesty: The key is all Truth.
Truthtesty
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2008 02:27AM by Truthtesty.
quote MiniMoe: I have not had time to read all the posts on Thieme, but one thing that stands out is that the people that listened to him did not listen to anyone else or get balance from anyone else. No pastor/teacher is 100% correct in what they teach. It is up to us believers to listen, learn and make up our own mind as to what we chose to believe and not believe. I do listen to Theime, (not all the time), and from what I heard so far, he is very good on basic doctrine. If you can pull yourself out of the intensity and look at the big picture of what he is trying to teach, the messages are good and correct. I can see where it would be easy to get lost in the greek and lose perspective on the bigger picture of God and His plan for humanity and each one of us on a personal level.
The basics I know Theime is correct on are these principles:
1) Each one of us is personally responsible for our own salvation and our relationship with God. No one else can say we are saved or not..
2) Personal sin is not the issue concerning salvation or lack thereof. It is solely dependent on our attitude toward Christ and our individual acceptance of God's gift of salvation. Since personal sin is not the issue concerning salvation, then we can never be bad enough to lose our gift from God. (I personally have not worked through the idea of losing salvation when you change your attitude toward Christ... ie: actually telling Christ you no longer believe and reject Him.), but in the end if you can't be good enough to earn Salvation, you can't be bad enough to lose it either.
Truthtesty: It is about faith in Jesus as Saviour and His Works, not the work of the sinner. It is not "attitude". It is faith. This is close to Dispensational Theology as taught by Thieme's teacher Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer (8 vol. Systematic Theology) who followed Dr. Scofield (Scofield Reference Bible) who followed Dr. Darby.
Minimoe quote: 3) Once we are believers, our future relationship with God does depend on our taking responsibility or our sin and confessing them to Him, and that has nothing to do with emotions and guilt. God never told us to feel bad for our actions, He told us to confess and change our ways (repent).
Beyond that, we can learn how to live the christian life from many different sources. Thieme does teach good Bible doctrine, but it is important to understand that he is not the only source for knowledge. I think it is easy to get burnt out when you eat, sleep and breath intense doctrine. Besides, how do you know if his interpretation in relevant to you unless you challenge some of the ideas with what other people teach?
Truthtesty: Thieme does not teach "good Bible doctrine". Thieme twisted the truth of the Dispensational Theology of Dr. Chafer, for Thieme's extremist right wing agenda of "brainwashing" Christiians with Thieme's rhetoric, to become elite robotic "brainwashed" special forces thiemites to fight Communism(and any human-favored social political party), with thiemites own "Christian humanity" dysfunctionalized. To make a stand against Communism or any imperialism is noble and our military has done a fine job throughout history protecting the Democratic Republic of the USA. However, to twist the truth of the Word of God to conform to Thieme's "human viewpoint" ie: "brainwashing" is simply lying and insulting to God. Note Jesus faced ultimate imperial political persecution in Rome, but Jesus did not twist the Word of God in that dire circumstance. Thieme dishonors Jesus by lying about the Word of God. Spiritual growth depends on faith in God, not man's false authoritatively dogmatic rhetoric.
Minimoe quote: Like I mentioned earlier.... No one pastor/teacher is 100% correct in what they teach. Does that mean they are all full of crap? No. If that were the case, every church would be teaching the exact same thing. The important thing is the basics. If the basics are wrong, then believers have nothing to build on.
Truthtesty: You think Thieme is correct on salvation? Think again. Thieme has continually and throughout misled people to believe thoughts which are not true about the efficacy of the Blood of Jesus and the physical death of Jesus. Like I posted before Thieme denys the efficacy of the literal Shed Blood of Christ, as taught by Lewis Sperry Chafer [forum.culteducation.com], Scofield and Darby. Another ex: Bauer Ardnt and Gingrich do not support Thieme's theory of the Blood of Christ. [forum.culteducation.com]. Another ex: Neither does Leon Morris [forum.culteducation.com] (Leon Morris is also listed in Bauer, Ardnt and Gingrich p.23.),. Neither did Dr. Walvoord [forum.culteducation.com]
How far will thiemites go to deny clearly what the Bible says for thier cult leader who obviously and clearly used false sources to support his false rhetoric and misled Christians about the Word of God? How far? Well Thieme has brainwashed thiemites to go against the grain of truth even to the point of being tortured.
Thieme's attack on the Blood of Christ, stems from Thieme's unjustified attack on "Christian humanity"(the humanity of Jesus and all Chrisitans) for Thieme's brainwashing program to create and train robotic soldiers to not act on human emotions(while being tortured), but strictly and soley for the reaction of the logic of resisting torture for the extreme right USA. Here Thieme conflates spirituality with resistance to torture for "expiating guilt". * Note the "human" behaviour of resisting torture is "ok" by Thieme, just not the other natural human behaviours of anger, etc...
Thieme quote: Young Americans in Hanoi learned fast. They made no deals. They learned that “meeting them half way” was the road to de¬gradation. My hypothetical young prison mate soon learned that impulses, working against the grain, are very important in political prisons, that one learns to enjoy fighting city hall, to enjoy giving the enemy upside-down logic problems, that one soon finds him¬self taking his lumps with pride and not merely liking but loving that tapping guy next door, the man he never sees, the man he bares his soul to after each torture session, until he realizes he is thereby expiating all residual guilt. Then he realizes he can’t be hurt and can’t be had as long as he tells the truth and clings to that forgiving band of brothers who are becoming his country, his family. [19] Christian Suffering by RB Thieme jr.
Truthtesty: Here Thieme is teaching thiemites "romantic" resistance not just to Communism, but to all humanity (note city hall and Thieme's multitude of attacks on Christian humanity, etc...). Us versus them.
And what does Thieme have behind door number 1 for the resistance to the human enemy for Thieme's extremist agenda? Well the grand prize is "expiating guilt ". Which guilt thiemites create and collect themselves, as they "listen" and "submit" to Thieme's false authority and deny the truth.
The problem with resisting torture is that if a nation does not apply the Geneva Convention, everyone breaks under the knife of torture anyhow and it is not ROMANTIC.
But that is one method of how Thieme brainwashes a thiemite to believe they are too shed the guilt of thier dysfunctional conscience, which Thieme and the unwitting thiemite cause thier own guilt in the 1st place.
If the basics are wrong thiemites do not have truth to build on. They have the cult of Thieme to experience with all it's "spiritual atrocities" and "Christian human" atrocities to dysfunctionalize on. If someone wants to learn Dispensational Theology then Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer is just one healthy suggestion. Thieme is not necessary for salvation, confession or Dispensational Theology. Thieme has managed to fumble all 3 of these BASICS.
Minimoe quote: The key is Balance.
Truthtesty: The key is all Truth.
Truthtesty
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2008 02:27AM by Truthtesty.
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: October 20, 2008 10:31AM
To the Forum:
Thieme quote: ... the man he bares his soul to after each torture session, until he realizes he is thereby expiating all residual guilt. Then he realizes he can’t be hurt and can’t be had as long as he tells the truth and clings to that forgiving band of brothers who are becoming his country, his family. [19] Christian Suffering by RB Thieme jr.
Truthtesty: The thiemite does not expiate "all residual guilt". Jesus infinitely expiated all sin. The "human works" of "resisting torture" espoused by Thieme's rhetoric, DOES NOT EXPIATE.
Also note Thieme's fantasy teaching "he realizes he can’t be hurt". Simply does not bear out in reality. Christians get hurt all the time. This destructive suggestion of Thieme's "hypothetical" leads thiemites to fantasize that they are "10ft wide and bullet-proof", until they run into real pain. And when they do? They don't feel like they can't be hurt. Under enough pressure and pain, thiemites breakdown in reality. That's the reality and it is not romantic, it is not "Biblical", and it does not expiate guilt.
Truthtesty
Thieme quote: ... the man he bares his soul to after each torture session, until he realizes he is thereby expiating all residual guilt. Then he realizes he can’t be hurt and can’t be had as long as he tells the truth and clings to that forgiving band of brothers who are becoming his country, his family. [19] Christian Suffering by RB Thieme jr.
Truthtesty: The thiemite does not expiate "all residual guilt". Jesus infinitely expiated all sin. The "human works" of "resisting torture" espoused by Thieme's rhetoric, DOES NOT EXPIATE.
Also note Thieme's fantasy teaching "he realizes he can’t be hurt". Simply does not bear out in reality. Christians get hurt all the time. This destructive suggestion of Thieme's "hypothetical" leads thiemites to fantasize that they are "10ft wide and bullet-proof", until they run into real pain. And when they do? They don't feel like they can't be hurt. Under enough pressure and pain, thiemites breakdown in reality. That's the reality and it is not romantic, it is not "Biblical", and it does not expiate guilt.
Truthtesty
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
sistersoap
()
Date: October 20, 2008 11:18AM
Quote
Truthtesty
To the Forum:
Thieme quote: ... the man he bares his soul to after each torture session, until he realizes he is thereby expiating all residual guilt. Then he realizes he can’t be hurt and can’t be had as long as he tells the truth and clings to that forgiving band of brothers who are becoming his country, his family. [19] Christian Suffering by RB Thieme jr.
Truthtesty: The thiemite does not expiate "all residual guilt". Jesus infinitely expiated all sin. The "human works" of "resisting torture" espoused by Thieme's rhetoric, DOES NOT EXPIATE.
Also note Thieme's fantasy teaching "he realizes he can’t be hurt". Simply does not bear out in reality. Christians get hurt all the time. This destructive suggestion of Thieme's "hypothetical" leads thiemites to fantasize that they are "10ft wide and bullet-proof", until they run into real pain. And when they do? They don't feel like they can't be hurt. Under enough pressure and pain, thiemites breakdown in reality. That's the reality and it is not romantic, it is not "Biblical", and it does not expiate guilt.
Truthtesty
TO TESTY AND THE FORUM:
This is a good example of the heavy load of very unrealistic expectations Thieme's system creates. These unrealistic expectations will explode on you when reality sets in and a huge crisis is revealed: either you deny that Thieme was wrong about this, or anything else he taught, or you eventually realize that he was not right about all, and that many of the things he presents as BIBLE DOCTRINE are simply his own personal opinions and many of them are not even founded upon reality.
If we could read the minds of all Berachans and tapers who have left the teaching it would be very interesting to learn how many left when they discovered this in their own personal time of crisis.
ONLY GOD'S WORDS are 100% reliable. Thieme's teaching is not BIBLE DOCTRINE. Some of it may be in the Bible, but the sum total of what he teaches IS NOT.
IT IS BEST to avoid such mixtures and opt for pure truth in God's Word.
There are many promises made by Thieme regarding the results of "taking in" his version of "BIBLE DOCTRINE" and few of them ever materialize. The guru or the emperor HAS NO CLOTHES ON. It is liberating to see it and to say it.
Sistersoap
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: October 23, 2008 08:41AM
To Sister and Forum:
Thieme quote: My hypothetical young prison mate soon learned that impulses, working against the grain, are very important in political prisons, that one learns to enjoy fighting city hall, to enjoy giving the enemy upside-down logic problems, that one soon finds him¬self taking his lumps with pride and not merely liking but loving that tapping guy next door, the man he never sees, the man he bares his soul to after each torture session, until he realizes he is thereby expiating all residual guilt. Then he realizes he can’t be hurt and can’t be had as long as he tells the truth and clings to that forgiving band of brothers who are becoming his country, his family. [19] Christian Suffering by RB Thieme jr.
Summarizing Thieme "military political prison love with your band of brothers after a torture session" is "legitimate love" between men even to the point of men "baring thier souls to one another"
While brotherly love in church? As clearly stated in the Bible? Well Brotherly love in a church according to Thieme is satanic.
Thieme quote: This satanic good includes every attempt to solve the problems of life apart from God’s grace and Bible doctrine. It also incorporates every plan that is antithetical to God’s Plan: religion,” socialism, communism, political internationalism and “brotherly love,” altruism, humanitarianism, philanthropy, public welfare, revolution, “the greatest good for the greatest number,” governmental interference in divine establishment, coercion by legislation to name a few! Every deviation from Bible doctrine, such as reversionism, apostasy and legalism/ or any organized Christian program which attempts to sponsor spiritual growth apart from the local church is evil!Divine Establishment by RB Thieme jr.
*Note even by Thieme's own standards ("deviation" from doctrine), he would have to include his own false teachings.
The bible clearly states Christian affection with/in faith: See Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 4, Page 198, Eph. 4:31–32, 1 Thess. 4:6, 9, 1 Thess. 5:11, James 4:11, Eph. 5:21, Phil. 2:3–4, 1 Pet. 5:5, Gal. 6:10.
What about brotherly love in church? Brotherly love is clearly stated in the Bible. But? Thieme has categorized brotherly love as evil and part of satan's plan. Why? For Thieme's extremist reich-wing political indoctrination program. And even if Thieme's attempt would've stopped communism? It still does not justify Thieme's false teaching of the Word of God. It is still false teaching.
Thieme quote: “Brotherly love” never stopped an invasion; it has never prevented war and never will prevent war... Reversionism by RB Thieme Jr.
Thieme is obviously overlooking the brotherly love that went on in American Blood believing Christian Churches in the 1930s and 1940s which stopped Hitler and Hirohito. These American Christians practiced brotherly love in Christian Churches and then went off to basic training to learn to become soldiers and they defeated Hitler and Hirohito.
Thieme quote: "It is very easy to fall into a trap known as “brotherly love” or “universal brotherhood.” I am not talking about the “agape” love — the relaxed mental attitude which we are commanded toward other believers; I am talking about the subtle pseudo-love-system, which is a sentimental substitute for Bible doctrine."Emotional Revolt of the Soul by RB Thieme jr.
Dr. Wall quote " Even if Thieme were correct in his passive definition of agape, his approach to the doctrine of love would still be unbalanced. For the New Testament writers used compound forms of philos to exhort the believers in their relationship one toward another: philadelphia (brotherly love), philostorgos (family affection), and philoxenos (affectionate expression to strangers, hospitality). In Romans 12:10; 1 Thessalonians 4:9; Hebrews 13:1; and 1 Peter 1:22, these terms are clearly used with reference to the relationships between believers in general, not just between close friends for family members. It is also interesting to note that Peter closely ties agape with philadelphia in 2 Peter 1:7. His point is that as you grow in brotherly love (affection) in the body of Christ, you can more readily give to one another volitionally. Biblical love is clearly more than Thieme's relaxed mental attitude.
[www.texaswalls.org]
Dr. Wall quote " 11. Decide to express brotherly love to other believers in the body. Express it by faith, so that it can be the product of the Holy Spirit. 12. Do not let infatuation with a Bible class hinder you from having a balanced, Christian life including time to build healthy family relationships, time to develop Bible study tools, time to build bridges for evangelizing the unsaved, time to show hospitality, and time to meet various spiritual, material and emotional needs of other members in the body of Christ.
[www.texaswalls.org]
Thieme's false teaching on brotherly love stops thiemites from seeking help when they need it (psycological isolation).
This is another example of how Thieme rejects the Word of God in favor of his own extremist neo-rightwing agenda.(private interpretation deviating from the Word of God)
Truthtesty
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2008 08:46AM by Truthtesty.
Thieme quote: My hypothetical young prison mate soon learned that impulses, working against the grain, are very important in political prisons, that one learns to enjoy fighting city hall, to enjoy giving the enemy upside-down logic problems, that one soon finds him¬self taking his lumps with pride and not merely liking but loving that tapping guy next door, the man he never sees, the man he bares his soul to after each torture session, until he realizes he is thereby expiating all residual guilt. Then he realizes he can’t be hurt and can’t be had as long as he tells the truth and clings to that forgiving band of brothers who are becoming his country, his family. [19] Christian Suffering by RB Thieme jr.
Summarizing Thieme "military political prison love with your band of brothers after a torture session" is "legitimate love" between men even to the point of men "baring thier souls to one another"
While brotherly love in church? As clearly stated in the Bible? Well Brotherly love in a church according to Thieme is satanic.
Thieme quote: This satanic good includes every attempt to solve the problems of life apart from God’s grace and Bible doctrine. It also incorporates every plan that is antithetical to God’s Plan: religion,” socialism, communism, political internationalism and “brotherly love,” altruism, humanitarianism, philanthropy, public welfare, revolution, “the greatest good for the greatest number,” governmental interference in divine establishment, coercion by legislation to name a few! Every deviation from Bible doctrine, such as reversionism, apostasy and legalism/ or any organized Christian program which attempts to sponsor spiritual growth apart from the local church is evil!Divine Establishment by RB Thieme jr.
*Note even by Thieme's own standards ("deviation" from doctrine), he would have to include his own false teachings.
The bible clearly states Christian affection with/in faith: See Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 4, Page 198, Eph. 4:31–32, 1 Thess. 4:6, 9, 1 Thess. 5:11, James 4:11, Eph. 5:21, Phil. 2:3–4, 1 Pet. 5:5, Gal. 6:10.
What about brotherly love in church? Brotherly love is clearly stated in the Bible. But? Thieme has categorized brotherly love as evil and part of satan's plan. Why? For Thieme's extremist reich-wing political indoctrination program. And even if Thieme's attempt would've stopped communism? It still does not justify Thieme's false teaching of the Word of God. It is still false teaching.
Thieme quote: “Brotherly love” never stopped an invasion; it has never prevented war and never will prevent war... Reversionism by RB Thieme Jr.
Thieme is obviously overlooking the brotherly love that went on in American Blood believing Christian Churches in the 1930s and 1940s which stopped Hitler and Hirohito. These American Christians practiced brotherly love in Christian Churches and then went off to basic training to learn to become soldiers and they defeated Hitler and Hirohito.
Thieme quote: "It is very easy to fall into a trap known as “brotherly love” or “universal brotherhood.” I am not talking about the “agape” love — the relaxed mental attitude which we are commanded toward other believers; I am talking about the subtle pseudo-love-system, which is a sentimental substitute for Bible doctrine."Emotional Revolt of the Soul by RB Thieme jr.
Dr. Wall quote " Even if Thieme were correct in his passive definition of agape, his approach to the doctrine of love would still be unbalanced. For the New Testament writers used compound forms of philos to exhort the believers in their relationship one toward another: philadelphia (brotherly love), philostorgos (family affection), and philoxenos (affectionate expression to strangers, hospitality). In Romans 12:10; 1 Thessalonians 4:9; Hebrews 13:1; and 1 Peter 1:22, these terms are clearly used with reference to the relationships between believers in general, not just between close friends for family members. It is also interesting to note that Peter closely ties agape with philadelphia in 2 Peter 1:7. His point is that as you grow in brotherly love (affection) in the body of Christ, you can more readily give to one another volitionally. Biblical love is clearly more than Thieme's relaxed mental attitude.
[www.texaswalls.org]
Dr. Wall quote " 11. Decide to express brotherly love to other believers in the body. Express it by faith, so that it can be the product of the Holy Spirit. 12. Do not let infatuation with a Bible class hinder you from having a balanced, Christian life including time to build healthy family relationships, time to develop Bible study tools, time to build bridges for evangelizing the unsaved, time to show hospitality, and time to meet various spiritual, material and emotional needs of other members in the body of Christ.
[www.texaswalls.org]
Thieme's false teaching on brotherly love stops thiemites from seeking help when they need it (psycological isolation).
This is another example of how Thieme rejects the Word of God in favor of his own extremist neo-rightwing agenda.(private interpretation deviating from the Word of God)
Truthtesty
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2008 08:46AM by Truthtesty.
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: November 01, 2008 06:36PM
To the Forum:
Thieme quote: This satanic good includes every attempt to solve the problems of life apart from God’s grace and Bible doctrine. It also incorporates every plan that is antithetical to God’s Plan: religion,” socialism, communism, political internationalism and “brotherly love,” altruism, humanitarianism, philanthropy, public welfare, revolution, “the greatest good for the greatest number,” governmental interference in divine establishment, coercion by legislation to name a few! Every deviation from Bible doctrine, such as reversionism, apostasy and legalism/ or any organized Christian program which attempts to sponsor spiritual growth apart from the local church is evil!Divine Establishment by RB Thieme jr.
Dr. Wall quote: A significant problem involved in Thieme's teaching on evil is his exegetical approach to the Hebrew and Greek words for evil. For example, Thieme stretches the point to call "evil" in Genesis 15:20 "satanic policy." In this case "evil" clearly carries with it a common connotation of harm. It is also an application of his weak methodology when Thieme concludes that Romans 13:3, 4 teaches that the laws of divine establishment protect the believer and the human race from evil (i.e. Satan's policy in the world). The passage is talking about governmental authorities, and evil refers to harm done to people living under these authorities. It also seems that Thieme has forced his political prejudices on the Scriptures under the guise of the doctrine of evil. For example, he claims that Isreal's "waiting for good" in Micah 1:12 involved ignoring the word of God and waiting for socialism. 141 Keil and Delitzsch clarify what the phrase actually means in its context: The inhabitants of Maroth writhe (chalah, from chul, to writhe with pain, like a woman in childbirth), because they are also smitten with the calamity, when it comes down to Jerusalem. Letov, "on account of the good," which they have lost, or are about to lose.142 In other words, the thrust of the passage is not that the people of Maroth were evil for waiting for socialism, but that they were waiting as one writhing in pain on account of the loss of the good.
Another observation should be made relative to the doctrine of evil. One of Thieme's determining factors, as to what is evil, is the issue of human freedom. Anything that abridges human freedom is evil. Thus, Thieme can include many social and political movements and actions as evil. Though freedom can be looked upon as a blessing from God, there is no biblical basis to use it as a final determinative factor as to what is good or evil.143 Thieme's condemnation of modern social legislation also should include a condemnation of Joseph in the Book of Genesis for his famine relief political action. Obviously, the divinely directed plan of Joseph restricted the freedom of the people of Egypt. Furthermore, when Thieme categorizes altruism and humanitarianism as evil, he makes an unjustified leap in logic in his shaky exegesis of Luke 11:13. Jesus says evil men can do good things, not that good deeds are evil. This kind of teaching can produce both a critical attitude toward the good deeds of others and a basis for rationalizing one’s carnal callousness toward the needs of others.
[www.texaswalls.org]
Again more evidence that Thieme pervertedly twisted the Truth of the Bible on the basis of Thieme's neoconservative Reichwing agenda, not on the basis of truthful sound methodology nor sound exegetics from Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. Thieme's approach is not sound, not Biblical and not based on reality.
Truthtesty
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2008 06:47PM by Truthtesty.
Thieme quote: This satanic good includes every attempt to solve the problems of life apart from God’s grace and Bible doctrine. It also incorporates every plan that is antithetical to God’s Plan: religion,” socialism, communism, political internationalism and “brotherly love,” altruism, humanitarianism, philanthropy, public welfare, revolution, “the greatest good for the greatest number,” governmental interference in divine establishment, coercion by legislation to name a few! Every deviation from Bible doctrine, such as reversionism, apostasy and legalism/ or any organized Christian program which attempts to sponsor spiritual growth apart from the local church is evil!Divine Establishment by RB Thieme jr.
Dr. Wall quote: A significant problem involved in Thieme's teaching on evil is his exegetical approach to the Hebrew and Greek words for evil. For example, Thieme stretches the point to call "evil" in Genesis 15:20 "satanic policy." In this case "evil" clearly carries with it a common connotation of harm. It is also an application of his weak methodology when Thieme concludes that Romans 13:3, 4 teaches that the laws of divine establishment protect the believer and the human race from evil (i.e. Satan's policy in the world). The passage is talking about governmental authorities, and evil refers to harm done to people living under these authorities. It also seems that Thieme has forced his political prejudices on the Scriptures under the guise of the doctrine of evil. For example, he claims that Isreal's "waiting for good" in Micah 1:12 involved ignoring the word of God and waiting for socialism. 141 Keil and Delitzsch clarify what the phrase actually means in its context: The inhabitants of Maroth writhe (chalah, from chul, to writhe with pain, like a woman in childbirth), because they are also smitten with the calamity, when it comes down to Jerusalem. Letov, "on account of the good," which they have lost, or are about to lose.142 In other words, the thrust of the passage is not that the people of Maroth were evil for waiting for socialism, but that they were waiting as one writhing in pain on account of the loss of the good.
Another observation should be made relative to the doctrine of evil. One of Thieme's determining factors, as to what is evil, is the issue of human freedom. Anything that abridges human freedom is evil. Thus, Thieme can include many social and political movements and actions as evil. Though freedom can be looked upon as a blessing from God, there is no biblical basis to use it as a final determinative factor as to what is good or evil.143 Thieme's condemnation of modern social legislation also should include a condemnation of Joseph in the Book of Genesis for his famine relief political action. Obviously, the divinely directed plan of Joseph restricted the freedom of the people of Egypt. Furthermore, when Thieme categorizes altruism and humanitarianism as evil, he makes an unjustified leap in logic in his shaky exegesis of Luke 11:13. Jesus says evil men can do good things, not that good deeds are evil. This kind of teaching can produce both a critical attitude toward the good deeds of others and a basis for rationalizing one’s carnal callousness toward the needs of others.
[www.texaswalls.org]
Again more evidence that Thieme pervertedly twisted the Truth of the Bible on the basis of Thieme's neoconservative Reichwing agenda, not on the basis of truthful sound methodology nor sound exegetics from Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. Thieme's approach is not sound, not Biblical and not based on reality.
Truthtesty
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2008 06:47PM by Truthtesty.
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Glenn_W
()
Date: November 06, 2008 11:40PM
I stumbled onto this forum yesterday so I haven't had a chance to read all of the posts over the almost two years that the forum on R.B. Thieme, Jr has been open. Before I get to my comments I suppose I need to say that my family were "tapers" (listened to recordings of Col. Thieme's sermons) from about the time I was 7 years old onward. I have not had any interaction with members of Berachah Church so my knowledge of his ministry comes from his sermons only.
That being said I can now comment on what I have read so far. This forum has brought out a lot of very strong emotions about Col. Thieme's (people ofen call him Col. Thieme since he retired from the army with a rank of Lt. Col.) ministry which, in way, does not surprise me. He had a strong personality and people tended to either love him or hate him. However much of what I have read seems to be just plain overwrought. Right at the very beginning a poster by the name of Ephesians 1:3 made, what I thought, were some reasonable statements in defense of Col. Thieme and then made a statement that she thought his ministry was persecuted by Satan. I wouldn't have said that (and no statement like that ever came out of Col. Thieme's mouth) but that is her opinion and there is nothing wrong with it. Here is one of the responses from the forum moderator to Ephesians 1:3:
rrmoderator
Attempting to hide behind the bible and dismiss criticism as somehow "satanic" is a common practice of groups called "cults" that manipulate the bible and Christian beliefs.
Frankly, it's not a "logical thought" to blame "Satan" for criticism, but rather a way that many cult members dismiss anything they don't want to deal with.
There are at least two comments to be made in response to the moderator. First, while I am sure cults often use that defense it is also true that Christians who are not cultists have also used it (did you know that "cultist" Martin Luther tried to throw an ink well at the devil?). Belief that Satan persecutes Christians is not a litmus test for being a cult. In fact, the bible is clear that those who follow Christ will be persecuted.
It took me about five minutes to track down an internet resource title the Scripture Menu which has list of scriptures on different topics. If you scan the scriptures listed for persecution I think you will agree that disciples of Christ will be persecuted.
The other item that really needs to be pointed out if the moderator insists on using "logical thoughts" it would really do him well to brush up on his logical fallacies:
- Some Fallacies of Argumentation
- Stephen's Guide
By trying to claim that Ephesians 1:3 (or Col. Thieme) are cultists because Ephesians 1:3's statement is something he would expect from a cult mamber (in another almost identical comment he mentioned David Koresh) is called guilt by association and is a form of ad hominem attack. And, I have to say, that this seemed particularly week to me. Using the moderator's "logic" I sure hope that cultists don't like pizza and beer or I am in big trouble!
Here at the end of the posts it apears that poster Truthtesty has been dominating as of late and a lot of it is overwrought. I picked out two of her (I apologize if Truthtesty is actually a he) statements but could have picked many more.
First quote:
Truthtesty
Another "basic" area where Thieme's cult indoctrination dysfunctionalizes the Christian, is anger. Thieme categorizes anger as a "metal attitude" sin.
There is no Ten commandment that states "Thou shalt not be angry".
The Bible simply says "Ephesians 4:26 "Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:"
Wow! Once again it took me all of five minutes to track down the Scripture Menu site which has a nice section listing scripture about anger. Yes, the Ephesians 4:26 quote was there but so were these:
Be not quick in your spirit to become angry,for anger lodges in the bosom of fools.
—Ecclesiastes 7:9
Refrain from anger, and forsake wrath!
Fret not yourself; it tends only to evil.
—Psalm 37:8
Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
—Ephesians 4:26-27, 31-32
To quote the Spaniard from the Princess Bride: "I do not think that word means what you think it means."
Then it seems that Truthtesty has found a critique of Col. Thieme's teaching by a Dr. Wall. I do not know Dr. Wall nor see why I am supposed to take his critique so seriously (please look up the logical fallacy of "appeal to authority"). From the context of Truthtesty's post I believe that she got this next idea from Dr. Wall:
Truthtesty
Thieme doesn't even get the majority of basics right from his teacher Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer.
Okay, I guess I need to point a really "basic" thing out about this. We are protestants and Dr. L.S. Chafer is not some kind of dispensationalist Pope. So Col. Thieme's teaching digressed from his teacher's? I can point you to online forums where Southern Baptists are arguing with Southern Baptists, Calvinists with Calvinists, and Lutherans with other Lutherans. We Christians tend to debate things a lot and students will disagree with teachers.
Oh well, I am running out of time and need to go.
That being said I can now comment on what I have read so far. This forum has brought out a lot of very strong emotions about Col. Thieme's (people ofen call him Col. Thieme since he retired from the army with a rank of Lt. Col.) ministry which, in way, does not surprise me. He had a strong personality and people tended to either love him or hate him. However much of what I have read seems to be just plain overwrought. Right at the very beginning a poster by the name of Ephesians 1:3 made, what I thought, were some reasonable statements in defense of Col. Thieme and then made a statement that she thought his ministry was persecuted by Satan. I wouldn't have said that (and no statement like that ever came out of Col. Thieme's mouth) but that is her opinion and there is nothing wrong with it. Here is one of the responses from the forum moderator to Ephesians 1:3:
rrmoderator
Attempting to hide behind the bible and dismiss criticism as somehow "satanic" is a common practice of groups called "cults" that manipulate the bible and Christian beliefs.
Frankly, it's not a "logical thought" to blame "Satan" for criticism, but rather a way that many cult members dismiss anything they don't want to deal with.
There are at least two comments to be made in response to the moderator. First, while I am sure cults often use that defense it is also true that Christians who are not cultists have also used it (did you know that "cultist" Martin Luther tried to throw an ink well at the devil?). Belief that Satan persecutes Christians is not a litmus test for being a cult. In fact, the bible is clear that those who follow Christ will be persecuted.
It took me about five minutes to track down an internet resource title the Scripture Menu which has list of scriptures on different topics. If you scan the scriptures listed for persecution I think you will agree that disciples of Christ will be persecuted.
The other item that really needs to be pointed out if the moderator insists on using "logical thoughts" it would really do him well to brush up on his logical fallacies:
- Some Fallacies of Argumentation
- Stephen's Guide
By trying to claim that Ephesians 1:3 (or Col. Thieme) are cultists because Ephesians 1:3's statement is something he would expect from a cult mamber (in another almost identical comment he mentioned David Koresh) is called guilt by association and is a form of ad hominem attack. And, I have to say, that this seemed particularly week to me. Using the moderator's "logic" I sure hope that cultists don't like pizza and beer or I am in big trouble!
Here at the end of the posts it apears that poster Truthtesty has been dominating as of late and a lot of it is overwrought. I picked out two of her (I apologize if Truthtesty is actually a he) statements but could have picked many more.
First quote:
Truthtesty
Another "basic" area where Thieme's cult indoctrination dysfunctionalizes the Christian, is anger. Thieme categorizes anger as a "metal attitude" sin.
There is no Ten commandment that states "Thou shalt not be angry".
The Bible simply says "Ephesians 4:26 "Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:"
Wow! Once again it took me all of five minutes to track down the Scripture Menu site which has a nice section listing scripture about anger. Yes, the Ephesians 4:26 quote was there but so were these:
Be not quick in your spirit to become angry,for anger lodges in the bosom of fools.
—Ecclesiastes 7:9
Refrain from anger, and forsake wrath!
Fret not yourself; it tends only to evil.
—Psalm 37:8
Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
—Ephesians 4:26-27, 31-32
To quote the Spaniard from the Princess Bride: "I do not think that word means what you think it means."
Then it seems that Truthtesty has found a critique of Col. Thieme's teaching by a Dr. Wall. I do not know Dr. Wall nor see why I am supposed to take his critique so seriously (please look up the logical fallacy of "appeal to authority"). From the context of Truthtesty's post I believe that she got this next idea from Dr. Wall:
Truthtesty
Thieme doesn't even get the majority of basics right from his teacher Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer.
Okay, I guess I need to point a really "basic" thing out about this. We are protestants and Dr. L.S. Chafer is not some kind of dispensationalist Pope. So Col. Thieme's teaching digressed from his teacher's? I can point you to online forums where Southern Baptists are arguing with Southern Baptists, Calvinists with Calvinists, and Lutherans with other Lutherans. We Christians tend to debate things a lot and students will disagree with teachers.
Oh well, I am running out of time and need to go.
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