Quote
Tommy Tsunami

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mile2
Tommy Tsunami:

You say you believe I Tim.3:2, which gives as a qualification of pastors and teachers that they be the "husband of one wife", refers to the "faithfulness of a husband toward his wife". How do you come to that conclusion? This passage says "husband of one wife" as opposed to husband of 2 wives, or 3 wives, etc. If a man is unfaithful to his wife, the woman he has been unfaithful with is not his wife. He would still have one wife. I can't follow your reasoning here.

In addition, this passage makes a blanket statement that would incorporate any and all circumstances. It does not say "husband of one wife, unless the circumstances dictate otherwise". So the details of Bobby's marriages would have no relevance or bearing on God's command.


Do you know what Bob Thieme teaches regarding this passage of scripture? God gave us a checklist of qualifications for a true pastor. So it is crucial to our wellbeing as members of the body of Christ to understand this. Once you are familiar with Thieme's teaching on this , please comment.

Seeing that you ignored the other portion of my response, the teaching gift issue of Bobby I will wait for a respectful response to that portion from you.

While waiting, even if Bobby has been married 3 times he still only has one wife now. My concern is with what the Bible says, by the way. It is crucial to understand what the Bible says and I am quite able to exegete the passage and have. So now I will wait for you to address the other portion of my response.

Tommy Tsunami:

Here is your statement regarding Bobby's teaching gift.

"However, I do not believe that Bobby has the teaching gift necessary for the Berachah ministry and regardless of his moral or ethical qualifications, qualifications I cannot address, I have heard his teaching and do not believe he has the teaching gift necessary for the ministry at Berachah and do believe those voting succumb to sentimentality when that choice was made"

Why do you assume I "ignored" that portion of your response? You stated that it was your opinion that Bobby doesn't have the "teaching gift necessary" and I accept that as your opinion. You didn't ask me a question or for any response on your opinion, so what kind of "respectful response" were you expecting from me? Besides this, the whole subject of Bobby's gift or lack of it is a totally different issue from the discussion at hand, which is how Bobby's selection as pastor of Berachah can be justified considering I Tim. 3:2 ("husband of one wife")

So far the only statements you have given are that you think that passage refers to "the faithfulness of a husband toward his wife" and "even if Bobby has been married 3 times he still has only one wife now." Actually he has no wife now because he is divorced from his 3rd wife and has not remarried.

I am sincerely very interested to know how someone who follows Thieme's teachings can explain the seeming conflict between this passage of scripture and the selection of Bobby. I look forward to hearing your rational, based of course upon Thieme's explanation of this scripture. In the event that you disagree with Thieme here, please state in what ways you disagree and why.

To the Forum:



Truthtesty: tsu if you would care to not make unwarranted assumptions, not make personal attacks, and open your eyes you would see that I addressed 1 of your statements in my post on 17DEC07 12:46AM. I ADDRRESSED 1 OF YOUR STATEMENTS BEFORE YOU FALSELY ACCUSED ME ON 31DEC07 OF HEARING "THE ECHO OF" MY "OWN THOUGHTS".

You never replied to what I addressed of your comment on 17DEC07.

You never replied until your off subject personal attack on 31DEC07. Even on 31DEC07 it was not a rational dialogue on your part. It was not a rational response. IT was a personal attack on me. You did not engage in rational dialogue. You did not respectfully respond to my comment. You completely ignored and went around what I had commented on and instead you made a personal attack on me completely off subject.

December 31, 2007 04:10PMTommy Tsunami
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.What I see here is a person whose ears are so tender and disposition so soft that they are reduced only to hearing the echo of their own thoughts. Continue on with your one man crusade and don't let any rational dialogue interrupt. Geesh where do these people come from?


Truthtesty: It is you who is disrespectfully and falsely attacking. It is you who is not engaging in rational dialogue, but rather you make unwarranted and false personal attacks.


Now you falsely accuse mile2 of ignoring part of what you said? How is this? mile2 simply chose to speak about part of what you said. You completely ignored EVERYTHING I SAID AND INSTEAD YOU CHOSE TO WAIT AND THEN MAKE A PERSONAL ATTACK ON ME. Whatever the reason you chose to not respectfully respond to my reply on 31DEC07, either because you could not respond or for whaterver other excuse you might offer, you still completely ignored my reply and chose to make an off subject personal attack.

Now you want to wait for a respectful response from mile2?

What have you said since you arrived that earns a respectful response? You attack and make false accusations and you want a respectful response?

From what you have stated so far there is no realistic reason for anyone to take what you say as anything warranting serious investigation. Quite the opposite actually you appear to be here simply to attack, harass, and act out your empty bitterness.



Truthtesty

I am astounded to discover a website on which members spend their time
trying to undermine a bible teacher with the stature of Bob Thieme.

What strikes me as incongrous is that mental processes can exist which
are in such total conflict as yours and mine. I began studying the bible
in Berachah Church in 1972, and I continue to listen to Thieme on tape to
this day, yet I have never been adversly affected by his teaching. In
fact, the messages he has taught me have yielded fantastic blessing and a
vibrant relationship with God.

I am not given to abberations, such as God speaking to me, or any such
nonsense, but I do experience what one Christian writer referred to as
"God winking at us" frequently. He was alluding to circumstances and
situations which culminate in a heightened awareness of God's presence
in our lives, circumstances which are clearly engineered by The Almighty
to accomplish this end.

For lack of any other explanation, I have concluded that some members
of the Berachah congregation came away spitefull and filled with hate
for Pastor Thieme, while the vast majority came to love and honor him
because of their different attitudes, and for no other reason.

The negative crowd were seething with resentment during the entire time
they sat in a service, and therefore they completely ignored what Bob
was saying. They were so intent to resent him, and hate the man, that
the message he taught went in one ear and out the other. They now
cite just miniscule snippets from the thousands of hours he has taught,
such as the "long hair" admonitions, and "right man, right woman", and
fail to evaluate even one substantial aspect of his teaching with an
intelligent and insightful point of view, much less offer alternatives to
any alleged oversights on his part.

On the other hand, the positive crowd put aside their misgivings and
concentrated on the content of Bob's teaching.

I didn't start out as a hard core "Theimite". In fact, I was very leery
of the man, and suspected that he was involved in the business of generting
an empire, like other noted "ministers" that I will not name. As time passed
I learned the facts, and my attitude underwent a complete transformation.

Consider these facts that came to light....

Bob Thieme is a close friend of Billy Graham, and once accompanied him on
some of his revivals, to speak from the podium before Graham spoke. The famous
evangelist offered Bob a permanent position in his "troupe", but Thieme
declined.

The Republican Party of Texas once encouraged Thieme to run for Governor
of that state, but Thieme declined.

NBC once offered Thieme his own television show, but he declined.

A group of pastors that were ordained in Berachah Church once got together
and proposed to form an alliance, with Thieme as the "bishop" of their
demonination, but Thieme declined. He also cancelled the yearly pastor
conferences at Berachah Church.

But even more telling about this man; When Bob informed his father that he
was resigning his commission in the U.S. Air Force to become a minister the
old man threatened to disinherit him. The Thieme family is very wealthy (They
are the principal stock holders in a large brewery). Robert Thieme carried out
his threat, and Bob was cut out of the will, which was a loss of millions. His only
sibling, a sister, got all the money.

Colonel Bob Thieme was the youngest Colonel in the U.S. Army Air Corps (25
years old), the personal aide to General Yount. When Bob announced that he
was resigning to go into the ministry the general encouraged him to remain
in service, assuring him that he would surely become a general himself. Bob
declined.

I have read here that Thieme touted himself as being a Christian "giant",
and yet I heard him, many, many times, declare that the Holy Spirit has
a profound sense of humor, to select such men as himself to bestow the
gift of teaching on them.

As I stated earlier, I had my own misgivings at first. Thieme is a crusty
old war horse, and somethimes offensive at first blush. He is what is known
in theological circles as an "exhortationist", in the tradition of such
luminaries as Isaiah, men who are raised up in a time of apostacy by God
to challenge the arrogance of Christianity. Naturally, they offend many
hearers, presumably those who are the target of their firey rhetoric.
Unfortunately, those who become disaffected do not benefit from the
process of catharsis, which is the thrust of such teaching.

You can imagine my shock when I first met Thieme face to face, during a
Wednesday night prayer meeting before class. He was the complete opposite
of his countenance in the pulpit; quiet and unassuming, with a permanent
smile on his face, and an air of humility that put me at ease immediately.
He was also an impeccable dresser, with razor sharp creases in his suit
trousers, and shoes shined to a mirror finish. His white shirt was starched
to perfection, and his tie knotted with the dimple dead center and the
knot a perfect triangle. I came away from that meeting very surprised, and
that began my reappraisal of a man I had always thought of as brash and
insensative, to some degree. In person he was gracious and kind, soft spoken
and the quintescence of coutesy becoming a gentleman.

I was amazed, and pleasantly so. His stormy personna while he was teaching
was obviously the posture he assumed as he addressed his congregation, and
I can imagine the reason was the nature of his gift. He was also looking
into the eyes of such members of the audience as Mr. Truthtesty, who were
exuding hatred as he taught.

When I came to know him I was also very taken by his profound respect and
adoration of women. Many times he had some tough things to say about the
ladies, such as the insistence that they "remain silent in church", and remain
under the authority of their husbands, but these, and many other seemingly
insensative things he taught, were words from the Scriptures, and placed there
by the inspiration of The Holy Spirit for the benefit of The Royal Family of God.
Bob Thieme taught the Bible, the truth recorded there, knowing full well that
thers, like many of you here, would revile him for it and indulge in malicious
slanders at his expense.

Never once, in the over 20 years I attended class in Berachah, did Pastor
Thieme miss a service, or come late. I have seen him so ill that he had
to keep a firm hold on the pulpit to avoid falling, and his voice so
weak he spoke in a barely audible whisper. He loved his congregation
enough to spend countless hours parsing the word in the original languages
and never staying home, or attending some function, merely to accomodate
his own comfort or personal wishes.

I close with this warning to well intentioned posters on this site; Bob
Thieme underwent a period of preparation for the ministry that defies
probability. He studied 6 years of Greek, 4 years of Hebrew, with a
minor in history, then 4 years of metriculation at Dallas Theological
Seminary under the stewardship of Lewis Sperry Chafer, 12 years all
together. He graduated Magna Cum Laude.

He taught in one pulpit for over 54 years, and declined many offers to
promote him, remaining true to his understanding of Scripture, which
establishes the local church as the organ from which the Beloved are to
be enlightened.

He is a man, and as such, he is less than perfect, but not one objective
person can deny his unerring faithfulness to God, and his congregation.
His messages were not merely rhetoric, or derived from tracts that were the
thoughts and teachings of others. He studied the original manuscrpits
to distill his messages, which he taught with passion and dedication.
Every word he taught was documented on the spot, with lengthy and
sometimes tedious exegesis, citing the Greek and Hewrew texts, and
accurate historical background. He was so meticulous in his study and
teaching that I have heard him teach A SINGLE WORD for weeks.

This attention to detail, and citing copious verses which pertained to a
subject, explains why so many hundreds of pastors were ordained there,
and went on to be distinguished ministers to their own churches. Some
of those men have risen to a prominent station in Christian circles,
such as Dr. Charles Swindol, who is now the President of Dallas Seminary,
and Hal Lindsey, the author of The Late Great Planet Earth, among others.

My warning is this....lest you lend an ear to the naysayers who are
no more than human themselves, and motivated not by a lofty principle,
but spite and loathing. God raised up Robert Thieme, and the man
served him well, driven by his clear vision of the responsibility that
God laid on him. He may have offended you, or taught things you did
not agree with, but for every one of you who despise him there are
thousands who admire and respect him. He did not get rich in the
ministry, nor did he seek national prominence. He remained married to
one woman for over half a century, and lives in the same house that
he bought 60 years ago.

Were I you, I would not be so willing to stand in judgement of such a
man, a priviledge that God has denied human beings, and particulary where
a man in His service is concerned. If, as you claim, Bob Thieme is an
arrogant miscreant, then God will deal rightly with him.

As for y'all, I suggest that you go on living your daily lives with
devotion to God, and refuse to participate in the the relentless
slanders that you have lent yourselves to, although arrogance being
what it is, I doubt you will heed my advice.

To mile2:

Do you have a copy of Thieme's "right man/right woman" booklet?


Truthtesty

If you will kindly indulge me, Mr. Truthtesty...I would like to
shed some light on the topic of "right man/right woman".

Assuming that you agree that The Garden, and Adam and Eve, are a
literal and accurate account of creation, then you will likely
also concur that God created a companion for the first man, and
she was perfectly suited to him in every nuance, soul and body.

God being Who and What He is, absolute and unchanging forever,
it is His practice to establish a precedent, and never deviate
from it whatsoever.

In the case of the man and woman, as they came to exist after our
original parents, it is reasonable to assume that God likewise
endows one woman with a soul and body that is totally compatible
with one man. The one variable in this case is the means of their
selecting one another from the billions of other human beings.
This question is answered in the processes which consume the soul
which is steeped with Biblical information.

If we put our faith in God, and remain patient, He will present our
Divinely designed partner to us in a manner which is clear and
understandable. This is not to say that we will all find our "right
mate", but it is possible if we adhere to the principles put forth
in the Bible and trust God to bring it to pass.

A union between two people that are not "right", as it were, can
nonetheless be a successful marriage, so long as both individuals
learn and apply the tenents of the Christian faith.

Pastor Thieme never did refute what he taught about this subject,
but he did express his chagrin that he taught it in the first place.
Let me explain;

There are believers in any congregation that range from "babies in
the Word" to spiritual adults. The former tend to make false applications,
jump to conclusions, and engage in fruitless activities in general
until they become more adept in their understanding of Scripture.
In the case of RM/RW many such people used this doctrine to justify
leaving their spouse. They were in a rocky relationship, and assumed
that they had their "wrong spouse", therefore it was OK to end the
marriage and seek their "right spouse".

Apparently you have neglected to mention that Bob expressly discouraged
such behavior, particularly on the basis of this doctrine. He stated,
many times, that there are no grounds, other than those stated in the
Bible, for divorcing. If we suspect that we have the "wrong spouse"
we are to remain in the relationship nonetheless, and make the best
of it.

The reason for Thieme's flipflop on RM/RW, you see, was this unfortunate
outcome, the misapplication of what he taught, and the malpractices
that it engendered.

Thank you for your attention to this message.

Truthtesty:

I do not have a copy of the Rt. Man/Rt. Woman booklet, but I can try to locate one from the tape group that meets in my city. What did you have in mind?

Imjustme:

Your posts are very thought provoking and I plan to respond to several portions of them. But first, I would be very interested to have you respond to an issue the forum is currently considering.

I assume that since Bobby Thieme is now Berachah's pastor and has tapes available, you listen to him teach as well as CoI. Thieme. I'm sure you are familiar with I Tim. chapter 3, which outlines the qualifications for a leader over the body of believers. I wonder how the members of Berachah and tapers justify Bobby's pastorship, knowing that he has had 3 failed marriages and is currently unmarried.

Of course I'm specifically referring to vs.2, "the husband of one wife", vs.4, "one that ruleth well his own house", and vs.5,"(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the house of God?)"

mile2

Options: Reply To This Message Quote This Message
December 12, 2007 12:41AMmile2
Date Added: 09/07/2007
Posts: 20 Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.orangeperuviscacha:

Thanks for your message. This morning I phoned Berachah and asked if Thieme had realized he was wrong in some aspects of his earlier Right Man/ Right Woman teaching, as I had recently heard. The woman who answered said what happened was that people had misunderstood the teaching and taken it out of context. In her words, "It got to be quite a mess." She said Thieme later tried to clarify his RM/RW teaching in his Marriage Series. But she assured me that all the old tapes and the RM/RW booklet, which is currently out of print, are still completely accurate.


Truthtesty: mile2, I think this issue is well worth investigation, not only does it concern whether Bobby should even be standing in the pulpit, but also it concerns an issue of Thieme's backing down due to people's so-called misunderstanding and taking Thieme out of context. I do not know of any other time in which Thieme backed down from any of his extreme "absolute truths", due to people's misunderstanding him. As a matter of fact, the opposite was true. Thieme was intentionally controversial and confrontational. Yet, here we see clearly Thieme and/or Be"reich"ah does back down and remove Thieme's teaching from the shelf. I find it very convenient and coincidental since Bobby's marital history does not qualify under the RM/RW teaching. One of my 1st questions is "who authorized the removal of the booklet?" My next question would be "which part(s) were taken out of context?" My 3rd question - If it were just a matter of information being taken out of context, then why wasn't the booklet clarified and re-issued? There are 4 or 5 re-issuings of the Blood of Christ manual. My 4th, If this were the Word of God then what difference would it make that it was taken out of context? It never made a difference before. 5th - What other "absolute truths" were removed because they were taken out of context?

I don't have a copy of the RM/RW booklet. I'd like to scan the document and go over it in detail.


Truthtesty

I'll look around my house and see if my wife has a copy stashed somewhere.

I, personally, do not feel that Bobby Thieme is a pastor who can enhance my spiritual
growth, Mile2. I will not comment on why, both out of respect for his father, and for the
reason that God reserves the matter of judging the men (and women) in his service
to himself. There are men who I feel are outright blasphemers, money hungry and
power mad, but it is a slippery slope, indeed, to ridicule them. Thus, with all due
respect, I limit my criticism to saying whether I will study under their teaching, or
not.

As for his hit-and-miss record with marriage, once again, God will determine what
measure of punishment is needed, if any. I will say that there have been men of
great stature that comitted some pretty hairy misdeeds. Jonah comes to mind. He
was SOOOOOO determined not to minister to the Assirians that he took a boat in
the opposite direction, but God has a way of bringing us into line! **chuckle**

It's somewhat off subject, but this issue reminds me that almost every noted Christian
in the Bible eventually comitted serious sins as mature believers. Moses struck the rock
and was not permitted to enter The Land, Paul made a vow in the temple and was
stoned by the Jews (and that don't mean he smoked some herbs!), David probably was
the worst. He raped the wife of his greatest General Officer, and then conspired to
murder him. John denied The Lord three times. etc., etc.

If I may offer my humble opinion; it is not the wrongdoing of our Brethren that are an
issue, but their ability, and motivation, to recover from their transgressions, in so far
as they fight their way back into favor with God. It seems to me that this is the purpose
for those accounts being partof the Holy Scriptures, to assure us that even when we
fail we can turn around a bad situation and regain the high ground.

On last word....if I were a student of Bobby Thieme I wouldn't be so concerned about
his personal life as I would be his qualifications as a pastor-teacher. Any parent knows
the "Do as I say, not as I do" principle. Even though we may strive to be worthy role
models, we fail to behave as we should at times. The same rule applies to pastors. In
fact, I always applied it while studying under RBT Jr. He is less than perfect, to be sure,
but he was meticulously qualified to dig out the Thruth from the original languages.

I hope my views answer your question, sir.