R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
GeneZ
()
Date: March 29, 2007 04:39PM
Quote
brainout
I also now think I was somewhat over-reacting to the gushiness I saw at Berachah. It's just a phase people go through. Some never grow out of it, but you'll find such "bliss bunnies" and "bitter bunnies" in any faith.Quote
Gushing? It need not be something unscriptural.
Galatians 4:15 (New International Version)
"What has happened to all your joy? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me."[/color:01b6945681]
I saw the same thing happen with another very popular pastor with his congregation. People gushed. And those who did not? Became critical of them.
Yet, the Colonel would not allow for such adoration to be encouraged. He always made sure to let others know that. He said more than once, if anyone thinks a pastor is a perfect human being... that they're crazy to think so.
Just the same. There will always be spiritual 'fans.' It just irks those who resent the authority it brings. The authority they crave. Those who crave the authority they themselves can not have become critical and faultfinders.
There will always be casualties in the spiritual warfare, even if a pastor is doing his job correctly. No matter how good he may be, there will always be someone with a nervous breakdown, etc. Just as someone would have had a nervous breakdown if they did not attend the church. But? The church gets blamed. Why? The same wrong thinking that brought on the nervous breakdown? Gets directed to a wrong source, because its wrong thinking. Now? If someone locked you in a closet and made you listen tapes hours a day? Then, becoming ill may be with excuse.
Like I said... I have seen testimonies and heard a woman explain how she spent thousands of dollars on therapy before she found a pastor who could teach her what she needed to regain her sanity. Yet? In later years, another person blamed the same pastor for being the cause of needing therapy.
It has nothing to do with being a cult. Its what happens in life.
[b:01b6945681]http://tinyurl.com/2omno5[/b:01b6945681]
Then why aren't you laughing. And why are my posts here? Becuase people know what I am saying is true.
There is no hope in christianity becuase it does not exist. It was a virgin-saviour bedtime story that went from Egypt to Persia and throughout the regions of that time. The Gnostic christians were persecuted in the 1st century becuase the knew christianity was a myth. The Literalist christians - Roman orthodox christians were stupid enough to take it literally. The Romans caught on that it was a religious way to subjugate and persecute people by getting them to do it to themselves - self-persecution - through thier own faith. Wow what a slick way to control people! The Romans were the 1st fanatics of christianity. Just look at the blood lust of the Coliseum. And now the modern day fanatics easily slip in and control.
Christianity is for people afraid of going to hell. PERIOD! Look at the History Channel special on Hell. hell has existed since before Judaism let alone chrisitianty.
Satan is not evil in Judaism only in chrisitianity. christians made satan evil. One christian sect Catholic, Protestant, non-denominational, born again take your pick. [Truthtesty 2006]
and.....
[b:01b6945681]http://tinyurl.com/2pxlqq[/b:01b6945681]
Assuming your christian which from you words you appear to be, then there is a part of you that corrupting away at yourself. It is a fact of nature when you go against you nature and leave your senses to have faith in jesus who is against your nature. You are choosing to be someone your not and your real identity is left behind. Your real life is left behind. To make it more clear for you if you never confused yourself with idea of jesus you would not be the subhuman you are today. You would be someone else. However, that someone else is like a rotting piece of meat inside you wanting to get out an be the real you. But by choice you won't let it so it tears away at your conscience and you try to hide with a high from bible class or some other means. It IS A fact that FAITH IN JESUS IDEOLOGY CORRUPTS. YOU CAN BURY THIS FACT WITH YOU UNTIL THE DAY YOU DIE ALONG WITH YOUR FEAR OF HELL BUT THE TRUTH WILL NEVER CHANGE. But don't feel too bad muslims and jews are the same way." [Truthtesty 2006]
Why any Christian would allow him to be considered a proper evaluator of how a church should be run? Is beyond me. But? That's the way it will be at times until the Lord returns.
C =Christians
U =united
L = loving
T =truth
Grace and peace, GeneZ
In the future, please snip relevant quote rather than inserting other's lengthy posts. --Moderator[/color:01b6945681]
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: March 29, 2007 05:27PM
To the Forum:
Dr. Spiros Zodhiates said of Thieme's THEORY on the physical death of Jesus "UTTER HERESY.... I cannot in anyway either as a student of the word of God or as a native-born Greek, having delved into the New Testament Greek as well as the classical Greek for my entire life, accept the THEORY of Mr. Thieme. In my opinion, his THEORY is entirely erroneous and misleading and without any support in the word of God." Dr. Zodhiates has stated more about Thieme.
Dr. Zodhiates [www.biblesoftonline.com] has published (to the public) many books on biblical word study, while Thieme only publishes "in-house". Dr. Zodhiates allows and champions the constructive criticism of the entire public, while Thieme allows no constructive criticism. As a result, Dr. Zodhiates has earned several honorary doctorates, while Thieme has earned none. Thieme did not challenge and champion the truth of other christian pastors and theologians who disagreed with him. Instead Thieme resorted to verbal assasination of other christians and church leaders.
(Dr. Zodhiates’ latest and greatest contribution to Bible students everywhere is the Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible. This along with The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary: New Testament (Word Study Series) makes a good start at personal word study. The comparison and contrast between Zodhiates and Thieme will help one focus and realize that faith in biblical truth is the priority, not faith in the cult of 1 dysfunctional man.)
[tinyurl.com]
[tinyurl.com]
Truthtesty
Substituted Tinyurl for long links. --Moderator[/color:fbaeb79723]
Dr. Spiros Zodhiates said of Thieme's THEORY on the physical death of Jesus "UTTER HERESY.... I cannot in anyway either as a student of the word of God or as a native-born Greek, having delved into the New Testament Greek as well as the classical Greek for my entire life, accept the THEORY of Mr. Thieme. In my opinion, his THEORY is entirely erroneous and misleading and without any support in the word of God." Dr. Zodhiates has stated more about Thieme.
Dr. Zodhiates [www.biblesoftonline.com] has published (to the public) many books on biblical word study, while Thieme only publishes "in-house". Dr. Zodhiates allows and champions the constructive criticism of the entire public, while Thieme allows no constructive criticism. As a result, Dr. Zodhiates has earned several honorary doctorates, while Thieme has earned none. Thieme did not challenge and champion the truth of other christian pastors and theologians who disagreed with him. Instead Thieme resorted to verbal assasination of other christians and church leaders.
(Dr. Zodhiates’ latest and greatest contribution to Bible students everywhere is the Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible. This along with The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary: New Testament (Word Study Series) makes a good start at personal word study. The comparison and contrast between Zodhiates and Thieme will help one focus and realize that faith in biblical truth is the priority, not faith in the cult of 1 dysfunctional man.)
[tinyurl.com]
[tinyurl.com]
Truthtesty
Substituted Tinyurl for long links. --Moderator[/color:fbaeb79723]
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
brainout
()
Date: March 29, 2007 10:41PM
Quote
GeneZ
I used to work for a world renown chef. He is a Christian. He listened to a few of "Teems" (how he pronounced it) tapes. He saw bickering even back then with certain members of a local Bible college trying to bad mouth RBT. Its not a new thing. Getting bad mouthed is the price one must pay for being a genuine faithful follower of Christ. And? As well, for following cults. Being bad mouthed and being called a cult is nothing in itself. Both the good, and the bad, will be blurred together by the cosmic system.
Well? This chef told me one day the following.
They are all jealous of Thieme. (mind you, this man did not decide to become a follower of Thieme). He said he saw the same type of competition and jealousy with other chefs when he was working his way up. The same type of bad mouthing, etc.
Its part of the package. Its to be expected. And, of course. This is to give no excuse to cults who do get bad mouthed.
Thanks, GeneZ. I forgot about the jealousy motive. Now I understand why the Lord always counsels us to not defend, that He will do that. To a jealous person, anything you say is but fuel for the jealousy. So silence must be the response. Of course, that will receive condemnation by the jealous, as well.
It is enough for a student to be like His Teacher, as the Lord so wittily remarked in Matt10:24, 26, Luke 6:40. Of course you and I know that [i:3e0f0da855]mathetes[/i:3e0f0da855] means no mere student, but a lifelong one. Hence "right" teacher is an important question. Right for the individual.
And as you so pithily stated just now, um.. the student shares in the attacks against the teacher, too. I guess if the teacher is truly bad, these attacks will reveal it. And if truly good -- just as you said -- the attacks reveal that also. Again, that's why He didn't have to open His mouth, Isa53:7.
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
HappyAndFree
()
Date: March 29, 2007 11:34PM
GeneZ,
Where to begin with you???
Truthtesty is not the leader here. The first post came from orangeperuviscacha. Truthtesty didn't even show up for a long while. He's simply putting in his two cents worth.
You said, "I think there is a problem here you are not facing. I have know mentally ill people in all sortts of ministries. It does not have to be the ministry's fault. Get a psychotherapist who can not grasp what Theime was teaching, and one can easily think it was a cult. I could have when I knew nothing. "
Besides the disjointed english...there are problems with these statements.
You seem to be assuming that the psychotherapist can't grasp Thieme's teaching. False assumption. You also imply that you could have thought it was a cult "when you knew nothing". From this, I gather that now you "see the light", but at one time you knew nothing.
Thieme would have his followers believe that legalism only takes the form of "no drinking, no dancing, being a goody-two-shoes". However, legalism takes many forms. The Pharisees were legalistic about the Sabbath. It was "the rules, or the law" to not work on the Sabbath, so they criticized Jesus' disciples for picking grain to eat on the Sabbath. They criticized Jesus for healing a man on the Sabbath. But Jesus understood the concept of situational ethics. It is ok to do good on the Sabbath, even if that entails a little work.
So legalism by Thieme:
If you don't pray the right way (rebound first), your prayers won't go higher than the ceiling.
WHAT??? Isn't God everywhere??? Even beneath the ceiling??? Of course God hears our prayers always. He is God. Should we confess our sins? Of course. But it doesn't have to be so legalistic.
This is just one example. Want more? Just say the word.
You said "If your family was the one to pressure you? Then they were wrong. Not Thieme. He never advocated such a thing. Matter of fact, he spoke up against such a thing numerous times."
How do you get from point 'a' to point 'b' in your thinking???? What makes you think I was pressured in any way??? By family or Thieme???
You don't understand the insidious nature of cults. You don't understand the insidious nature of Thieme's ministry.
Where to begin with you???
Truthtesty is not the leader here. The first post came from orangeperuviscacha. Truthtesty didn't even show up for a long while. He's simply putting in his two cents worth.
You said, "I think there is a problem here you are not facing. I have know mentally ill people in all sortts of ministries. It does not have to be the ministry's fault. Get a psychotherapist who can not grasp what Theime was teaching, and one can easily think it was a cult. I could have when I knew nothing. "
Besides the disjointed english...there are problems with these statements.
You seem to be assuming that the psychotherapist can't grasp Thieme's teaching. False assumption. You also imply that you could have thought it was a cult "when you knew nothing". From this, I gather that now you "see the light", but at one time you knew nothing.
Thieme would have his followers believe that legalism only takes the form of "no drinking, no dancing, being a goody-two-shoes". However, legalism takes many forms. The Pharisees were legalistic about the Sabbath. It was "the rules, or the law" to not work on the Sabbath, so they criticized Jesus' disciples for picking grain to eat on the Sabbath. They criticized Jesus for healing a man on the Sabbath. But Jesus understood the concept of situational ethics. It is ok to do good on the Sabbath, even if that entails a little work.
So legalism by Thieme:
If you don't pray the right way (rebound first), your prayers won't go higher than the ceiling.
WHAT??? Isn't God everywhere??? Even beneath the ceiling??? Of course God hears our prayers always. He is God. Should we confess our sins? Of course. But it doesn't have to be so legalistic.
This is just one example. Want more? Just say the word.
You said "If your family was the one to pressure you? Then they were wrong. Not Thieme. He never advocated such a thing. Matter of fact, he spoke up against such a thing numerous times."
How do you get from point 'a' to point 'b' in your thinking???? What makes you think I was pressured in any way??? By family or Thieme???
You don't understand the insidious nature of cults. You don't understand the insidious nature of Thieme's ministry.
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
brainout
()
Date: March 29, 2007 11:35PM
Testy, 1Cor15, particularly 55-57 is on how physical death is God's Victory. While I guess I should smile that Zodhiates calls the BIBLE doctrine on Christ's Physical death "Thieme's 'theory'", it's not. Thieme is just a man. So I'm not smiling.
Trouble is, this forum is not supposed to be about the 'doctrines', apparently; so your kind posting is something I can't reply to further than I am now. I can only cite the Bible which refutes the Zodhiates statement (which is also quite old). More verses tie to the 1Cor15:55-57 passage, most notably Isa53:12 (try the Tanach, JPS 1985 translation, as most other translations are bad on this verse, making Christ look like He only gets PART of the inheritance rather than BEING the Inheritor).
We all are Royal Priests under God per 1Pet2:5,9,Rev1:6, 5:10. Who we choose to teach us this Priesthood, is a sovereign private affair each of us must individually decide before the Lord. Whatever people choose, I am happy for them to be happy.
Thanks again for your post.
Trouble is, this forum is not supposed to be about the 'doctrines', apparently; so your kind posting is something I can't reply to further than I am now. I can only cite the Bible which refutes the Zodhiates statement (which is also quite old). More verses tie to the 1Cor15:55-57 passage, most notably Isa53:12 (try the Tanach, JPS 1985 translation, as most other translations are bad on this verse, making Christ look like He only gets PART of the inheritance rather than BEING the Inheritor).
We all are Royal Priests under God per 1Pet2:5,9,Rev1:6, 5:10. Who we choose to teach us this Priesthood, is a sovereign private affair each of us must individually decide before the Lord. Whatever people choose, I am happy for them to be happy.
Thanks again for your post.
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
brainout
()
Date: March 29, 2007 11:56PM
Reply from GeneZ:Quote
brainout
I also now think I was somewhat over-reacting to the gushiness I saw at Berachah. It's just a phase people go through. Some never grow out of it, but you'll find such "bliss bunnies" and "bitter bunnies" in any faith.
Quote
GeneZ
Gushing? It need not be something unscriptural.
Galatians 4:15 (New International Version)
"What has happened to all your joy? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me."[/color:88c918f184]
I saw the same thing happen with another very popular pastor with his congregation. People gushed. And those who did not? Became critical of them.
Yet, the Colonel would not allow for such adoration to be encouraged. He always made sure to let others know that. He said more than once, if anyone thinks a pastor is a perfect human being... that they're crazy to think so.
Just the same. There will always be spiritual 'fans.' It just irks those who resent the authority it brings. The authority they crave. Those who crave the authority they themselves can not have become critical and faultfinders.
There will always be casualties in the spiritual warfare, even if a pastor is doing his job correctly. No matter how good he may be, there will always be someone with a nervous breakdown, etc. Just as someone would have had a nervous breakdown if they did not attend the church. But? The church gets blamed. Why? The same wrong thinking that brought on the nervous breakdown? Gets directed to a wrong source, because its wrong thinking. Now? If someone locked you in a closet and made you listen tapes hours a day? Then, becoming ill may be with excuse.
Last night I went on undernet and asked people I knew what they thought defined a cult. I wanted to get views on the Rick Ross FAQ position about BEHAVIOR versus (my position) of TENETS. A person named "fireflies" succinctly made a great parallel about two groups which have the same tenet, animal rights activists. One of the two groups would APPLY the tenet to conclude that everyone who in their view harms an animal, should be killed -- and then actively does that. Such a use of a tenet, is a behavior, and makes it a cult.
So not only is gushiness something I should be more tolerant of -- and iconoclasm too -- but yeah, gushiness is a sign of love and should not be deprecated. Rather, as you noted, it's the over-the-top APPLICATION which creates a misuse. And, in aggregate, would result in a cult.
Thanks for this correction. Liked your C.U.L.T. definition. That's one "cult" I hope we all belong to!
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
GeneZ
()
Date: March 30, 2007 12:31AM
[quote="HappyAndFree"
You seem to be assuming that the psychotherapist can't grasp Thieme's teaching. False assumption. You also imply that you could have thought it was a cult "when you knew nothing". From this, I gather that now you "see the light", but at one time you knew nothing. [/quote]
I have seen all sorts of believers who claim to grasp his teachings, when they do not. You do not. So? How can you know if another does? They see it in the same way you do. That does not mean they grasp it.
That is so basic. Sin cuts one off from fellowship. Refusing to acknowledge sin in one's heart will cause one not to have their prayers heard. You think thats legalism? I can see why you have a problem with his teachings, then.
Psalm 66:18
If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:[/size:4b18ad31a7]
He "hears" means to pay heed. It does not mean his ears are plugged by our sin. Of course God hears all things. Yet, he will not listen.
There is the balance. No wonder you had problems with his teachings. This is not only taught by Thieme, by the way. You make it like he created a new doctrine. Its the Word of God. Catholics misapply it, and state you must rebound to a priest. Yet, they see the need for rebound in their own distorted way. Its in the Bible.
If we name our sins to God? He forgives? 1 John 1:9. If we refuse to acknowledge sin? If I regard (cherish) sin in my heart? Refuse to admit it is sin? God will not hear my prayers.
If I protect my sin? Deny its sin? Yes! He will hear what was said audibly. Of course!. But he will not hear my request. He will not listen. He will not acknowledge what he heard. For I refuse to acknowledge my sin.
Common sense needs to be applied here. No wonder you had problems. That is not the teaching of a cult. If being a cult were legalism? We would have many more cults in this world. Lots.
But? OK. Thieme is a cult. You said so. So be it.
I can't believe you said that. But, it explains the problem succinctly.
In Christ, GeneZ
You seem to be assuming that the psychotherapist can't grasp Thieme's teaching. False assumption. You also imply that you could have thought it was a cult "when you knew nothing". From this, I gather that now you "see the light", but at one time you knew nothing. [/quote]
I have seen all sorts of believers who claim to grasp his teachings, when they do not. You do not. So? How can you know if another does? They see it in the same way you do. That does not mean they grasp it.
Quote
Thieme would have his followers believe that legalism only takes the form of "no drinking, no dancing, being a goody-two-shoes". However, legalism takes many forms. The Pharisees were legalistic about the Sabbath. It was "the rules, or the law" to not work on the Sabbath, so they criticized Jesus' disciples for picking grain to eat on the Sabbath. They criticized Jesus for healing a man on the Sabbath. But Jesus understood the concept of situational ethics. It is ok to do good on the Sabbath, even if that entails a little work.
So legalism by Thieme:
If you don't pray the right way (rebound first), your prayers won't go higher than the ceiling.
That is so basic. Sin cuts one off from fellowship. Refusing to acknowledge sin in one's heart will cause one not to have their prayers heard. You think thats legalism? I can see why you have a problem with his teachings, then.
Quote
WHAT??? Isn't God everywhere??? Even beneath the ceiling??? Of course God hears our prayers always. He is God. Should we confess our sins? Of course. But it doesn't have to be so legalistic.
Psalm 66:18
If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:[/size:4b18ad31a7]
He "hears" means to pay heed. It does not mean his ears are plugged by our sin. Of course God hears all things. Yet, he will not listen.
There is the balance. No wonder you had problems with his teachings. This is not only taught by Thieme, by the way. You make it like he created a new doctrine. Its the Word of God. Catholics misapply it, and state you must rebound to a priest. Yet, they see the need for rebound in their own distorted way. Its in the Bible.
If we name our sins to God? He forgives? 1 John 1:9. If we refuse to acknowledge sin? If I regard (cherish) sin in my heart? Refuse to admit it is sin? God will not hear my prayers.
If I protect my sin? Deny its sin? Yes! He will hear what was said audibly. Of course!. But he will not hear my request. He will not listen. He will not acknowledge what he heard. For I refuse to acknowledge my sin.
Common sense needs to be applied here. No wonder you had problems. That is not the teaching of a cult. If being a cult were legalism? We would have many more cults in this world. Lots.
But? OK. Thieme is a cult. You said so. So be it.
I can't believe you said that. But, it explains the problem succinctly.
In Christ, GeneZ
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
ephesians1:3
()
Date: March 30, 2007 01:16AM
Quote
Truthtesty
To the Forum:
Dr. Spiros Zodhiates said of Thieme's THEORY on the physical death of Jesus "UTTER HERESY.... I cannot in anyway either as a student of the word of God or as a native-born Greek, having delved into the New Testament Greek as well as the classical Greek for my entire life, accept the THEORY of Mr. Thieme. In my opinion, his THEORY is entirely erroneous and misleading and without any support in the word of God." Dr. Zodhiates has stated more about Thieme.
Excuse my contraditions in stating I'm exiting the forum, then reappearing, but this [i:9b206aebda]really[/i:9b206aebda] needs to be addressed. Perhaps I can be more available when school is finished (one more month), but I at least need to pop in to make this point.
Testy, what you are doing is just taking any and every person who disagrees with Thieme and using them as a way to fuel your obsessive, never-ending crusade against Thieme.
The problem here is this -- you are championing two men who disagree with Thieme, but they don't even agree with each other!!
Dr. Zodhiates takes the position, as do most fundamentalist, Protestant, conservative churches in America that the Blood of Christ refers to Christ's physical death, period. Dr. Zodhiates does not [i:9b206aebda]believe[/i:9b206aebda] in a "spiritual death" of Christ on the cross, and again, that's keeping in line with a pretty mainstream belief.
Dr. Zodhiates:
[i:9b206aebda]"There is only one death of Christ referred to in the entire New Testament and that is the PHYSICAL DEATH (emphasis his) of Christ. It is that which availed for our sins." [/i:9b206aebda]- point #3 of Zodhiates letter to Bob Jones in reference to R.B. Thieme, dated August 3, 1971.
Zodhiates view is hardly a suprise. As I said, it's a pretty mainstream belief in Protestant circles. To most Baptists, saying there was a physical death of Christ is either heresy, ridiculous, or ... they haven't even heard of such a concept.
But here's the clincher...Dr. Wall COMPLETELY DISAGREES WITH THIS! Is everybody watching this?
Dr. Wall per his 1978 thesis:
[i:9b206aebda]Thieme's position evaluated. Thieme is correct in observing that the term blood of Christ is a pregnant term with figurative significance. The problem with Thieme's interpretation is that he restricts the term solely to the spiritual death of Christ and fails to see that it includes not only his spiritual death but also his physical blood and the whole act of dying physically.[/i:9b206aebda]
Wall's belief is, also, not a surprise. Having gotten a doctorate from Dallas Theological Seminary, which is a seminary based on systematic theology, his view simply tows the line on the doctrinal views of the seminary:
[i:9b206aebda]Article III, Section A:
4. The Person and Work of Christ
We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, became man, without ceasing to be God, having been conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary, in order that He might reveal God and redeem sinful man; that lie accomplished our redemption through His spiritual death on the cross as a substitutionary sacrifice[/i:9b206aebda]
In other words, here's the synopsis - Zodhiates believes and teaches that there was no spiritual death of Christ on the cross. His physical death alone paid the price for our sins. This is the mainstream belief.
Wall believes that there [i:9b206aebda]was[/i:9b206aebda] a spiritual death of Christ on the cross, that was a part of payment for sin, but includes the physical death as part of the payment. So Wall incorporates the spiritual death view, but does not exclude other factors. This is a belief most common with those adhering to systematic theology, and is very widespread, but not the majority belief in Protestant circles.
Thieme's teaching is that the sins of the World were imputed to Christ on the cross, and His spiritual death paid the price for those sins. This is not to say that Thieme teaches that the incarnation, resurrection, ascension, session, and physical death were not necessities in the salvation package. (for if any of those things didn't happen, we would not be saved, thereby necessitating the occurence of each and every one of those things), however Thieme is just pointing out the technical detail of exactly what accomplished the salvation (at what point were our sins imputed and judged). What we really have here is just a technicality between Thieme and Wall..Wall is just a little myopic in his dissertation, to the point that he is so busy paying attention to what Thieme [i:9b206aebda]says[/i:9b206aebda], he doesn't see what he [i:9b206aebda]means[/i:9b206aebda]. But he did the exact same thing with the "multiplicity of pastors" issue, which I pointed out.
Testy, what you are doing is the equivalent to me doing this...as a non-muslim, taking two different dissertations by two different Sunni muslim mullah "doctors" [b:9b206aebda]who don't agree with each other on an important topic[/b:9b206aebda], walking into a Shi'ite mosque and waving around the dissertations, shouting "you're wrong, you're wrong, look here what the doctors say".
[i:9b206aebda]Every[/i:9b206aebda] great teacher has a group that disagrees with their theology. Do you have any idea how persecuted and ridiculed Calvin, Zwingli, Luther, et al, were? Did the "doctors of theology" of the time agree with them? They didn't even agree with each other! Calvin burned Servetus at the stake for goodness sake! Calvin had areas of theology that have contributed greatly to modern theological thought, but some that I think are absolutely heretical and untenable. Does this mean throw out his whole body of work? [i:9b206aebda][b:9b206aebda]Does this make him a cult?[/b:9b206aebda][/i:9b206aebda]
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
brainout
()
Date: March 30, 2007 01:38AM
Reply to HappyandFree's quote:
Please, will you and Testy stop treating Thieme as if he WROTE the Bible, rather than merely quoting it? Psalm 32:5 and 66:18 in context, inter alia, tell you that your prayers go no higher than the ceiling -- nor even under it. 1Jn1:9 uses katharizw to tell you that you are a Defiled Temple PURIFIED when you use the verse. Thieme didn't invent 1Jn1:9 or any other verse in the Bible, all of which were written 2000 years or MORE prior to his own birth.
There is nothing insidious about quoting Bible, repeating it, tying it to other verses, going through the exegesis to show where the teaching DERIVES. It does not derive from Thieme. It derives from the Word of God.
Isaiah 53 proves that THINKING, not physical death, paid for sins; that physical death, is a victory from God. So if Thieme or ANY other pastor merely repeats (anangellw, verb in Isa53:1) what BIBLE says, that is NOT a cult or their invention or their theory.
I need to stop posting. The debate keeps on devolving into doctrinal issues, which I love and think the highest form of debate -- but this forum's rules, explicitly request we not do this. Byee. God bless.
Quote
HappyAndFree
So legalism by Thieme:
If you don't pray the right way (rebound first), your prayers won't go higher than the ceiling.
WHAT??? Isn't God everywhere??? Even beneath the ceiling??? Of course God hears our prayers always. He is God. Should we confess our sins? Of course. But it doesn't have to be so legalistic.
You don't understand the insidious nature of cults. You don't understand the insidious nature of Thieme's ministry.
Please, will you and Testy stop treating Thieme as if he WROTE the Bible, rather than merely quoting it? Psalm 32:5 and 66:18 in context, inter alia, tell you that your prayers go no higher than the ceiling -- nor even under it. 1Jn1:9 uses katharizw to tell you that you are a Defiled Temple PURIFIED when you use the verse. Thieme didn't invent 1Jn1:9 or any other verse in the Bible, all of which were written 2000 years or MORE prior to his own birth.
There is nothing insidious about quoting Bible, repeating it, tying it to other verses, going through the exegesis to show where the teaching DERIVES. It does not derive from Thieme. It derives from the Word of God.
Isaiah 53 proves that THINKING, not physical death, paid for sins; that physical death, is a victory from God. So if Thieme or ANY other pastor merely repeats (anangellw, verb in Isa53:1) what BIBLE says, that is NOT a cult or their invention or their theory.
I need to stop posting. The debate keeps on devolving into doctrinal issues, which I love and think the highest form of debate -- but this forum's rules, explicitly request we not do this. Byee. God bless.
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
GeneZ
()
Date: March 30, 2007 03:01AM
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Truthtesty
To the Forum:
Dr. Spiros Zodhiates said of Thieme's THEORY on the physical death of Jesus "UTTER HERESY.... I cannot in anyway either as a student of the word of God or as a native-born Greek, having delved into the New Testament Greek as well as the classical Greek for my entire life, accept the THEORY of Mr. Thieme. In my opinion, his THEORY is entirely erroneous and misleading and without any support in the word of God." Dr. Zodhiates has stated more about Thieme.
Even if Spiros were corect? How does that make Thieme a cult? Wrong erroneous teaching abound in Christianity. It has nothing to do with being a cult. If you want a doctrinal debate? Then, that's another issue altogether.
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Dr. Zodhiates [www.biblesoftonline.com] has published (to the public) many books on biblical word study, while Thieme only publishes "in-house".
LOL! So what? Is it Biblical to publish through a publishing house? Since when?
You ever read how much he charges for his books? Milllllions! Right? When you go to a publihing house you have over head and major expenses to contend with.
Financial policy...
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There is no charge for any material from R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries. Anyone who desires Bible teaching can receive our books and recordings without obligation. God provides Bible doctrine. We wish to reflect His grace.
R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries is a grace ministry and operates entirely on voluntary contributions. There is no price list for books or recordings. No money is requested. When gratitude for the Word of God motivates a believer to give, he has the privilege of contributing to the dissemination of Bible doctrine[/color:71243ad606].
I recall when attending a Bible College that one book in particular was viewed in a positive light by that ministry. Guess what? RBT ministries sent us a box containg many books. Not a penny was asked for.
Cult? You have to be kidding! I have called on the phone to ask about tapes. Next day they were shipped out free of charge. You really do not know what you speak of. You simply are one to find anyone to quote who conveniently serves your desired outcome.
And, speaking Greek as native tongue guarantees nothing. Apostasy existed when the Apostles were alive. You are very limited in your scope on how things work. That serves your ability to think you must be correct. But, the more you learn, will reveal how much you need to learn.
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Dr. Zodhiates allows and champions the constructive criticism of the entire public, while Thieme allows no constructive criticism. As a result, Dr. Zodhiates has earned several honorary doctorates, while Thieme has earned none.
You think a doctorate guarantees having truth?
Well, lets examine two world renown doctorates while we are at it. Ok?
[en.wikipedia.org]
Dr. Rolf Johan Furuli is one of Jehovah's Witnesses and works as a lecturer in Semitic languages at the University of Oslo. He is currently involved in translation of non-Christian religious texts, and is considered an expert in ancient languages. In 2005 he finished a doctoral thesis suggesting a new understanding of Classical Hebrew. This study has been privately published.
Furuli started his studies of New Babylonian chronology in 1984 and has attempted to defend the Biblical chronology advocated by the Wachtower Bible and Tract Society. He has suggested that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE rather than 587 BCE.
Dr. Beduhn?
[www.towerwatch.com]
A more recent endorser is Dr. Jason D. BeDuhn, who used the interlinear version of NWT in his course, "The Development of the Jesus Tradition," at Indiana University. In a letter to the Watchtower Society, dated 12 May 1997, he stated that "it is the best interlinear New Testament available," and "it gets past traditional renderings that harmonize, gloss, and over-interpret passages in light of later dogma."9 In other words, NWT appeals to scholars who consider the deity of Christ a later, inserted doctrine.
So?
Doctorate? Means = Truth? You know nothing about Christ!
It was the doctorates that nailed Jesus to the Cross!
Acts 4:13 (New American Standard Bible)
"Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus."[/color:71243ad606]
I am not anti-intellectual as many fundies become when they see that verse. We need highly educated men of ability to exegete Scriptures and to teach. But, just to say someone has not a doctorate, and he is inferior in his understanding to one who does? Is nonsense. I knew a Dr. Libby who said his doctorates (many) were a form of death without a true knowledge of Christ. You really do not know what you are doing.
You think academic ability constitutes wisdom?
All you will end up many a time, is simply a dumb-wiz. Not, wisdom.
I have known Ph.D's that totally lacked common sense. Means nothing in itself. Its the PH.D that has wisdom who finds life.
Those I knew, or knew about, were quite often unhappy and unable to relax without first establishing their credentials. Knowledge in itself is not truth. God created certain people to be walking encyclopedias. They were helpful to others before the advent of the printing press and electronic communication. But? To think it means wisdom and understanding? Hitler had followers who were Ph.D's. So what?
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Thieme did not challenge and champion the truth of other christian pastors and theologians who disagreed with him. Instead Thieme resorted to verbal assasination of other christians and church leaders.
Thieme did not more attacking than any other pastor I have heard put down what he viewed as wrong teaching. Its his job to do that. Catholics think they are the only true church. That all else are apostate. You should go after them. Are you up to the challenge? After all. That was the church that organized the Inquisitions. Got what it takes?
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(Dr. Zodhiates’ latest and greatest contribution to Bible students everywhere is the Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible. This along with The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary: New Testament (Word Study Series) makes a good start at personal word study. The comparison and contrast between Zodhiates and Thieme will help one focus and realize that faith in biblical truth is the priority, not faith in the cult of 1 dysfunctional man.)
You? Who openly condemns Christianity in the History Channel forum? Come here to recommend Christian reading material?????? To Christians?
All you did was to quote the marketing prelude to selling his book.
The only reason I continue with you, is because the more you open your mouth, the more you give reason why you should not be heeded. So, keep on trying. You condemn Christianity? Yet want to recommend a good Christian book? :wink: :roll:
How more obvious can it be, that it is obvious?
You do not know what you are dealing with. Yet, come on as if you were an expert. Keep talking. The more rope you provide to hang yourself with will be provided every time you speak out of two sides of your mouth.
You hate Christianity out of one side. Then want to help Christians out of the other? You think Jesus's birth was a myth. Yet? You want to recommend a book by a man who says its true? LOL!
Disagreeing on doctrine does not constitute a cult. You need to realize that. Will you? Are you capable of it?
In Christ, GeneZ
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