Re: Zeitgeist and "Warning signs" of a potentially unsafe group
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: March 07, 2011 05:29AM
Omitting to Show a Very Important Part of Zeitgeist Addendum
Post #95985
Re:Questions For Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows and the Answ 1 Year, 11 Months ago
[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]
[forum.culteducation.com]
Have there been other occasions when only part of ZM films were shown to the general public?
It will be interesting for us to see if this was the only time--or whether, later on, others come forward.
Now..how could the audience at that school get a full take on what ZM is all about if the part of the film in which Peter Joseph advises avoidance of military service is not shown?
Especially in the case when as the correspondant noted, the film was shown at a school on a naval base?
Many students there might well be from service families--and form quite a different personal take on ZM if they know that Peter Joseph advises against military service.
One has to remember that in this currently imperfect world, it is against the law in some countries to avoid or advise others on how to evade the draft. And in those countries there are heavy penalties.
If ZM has the courage of its principles, it should emulate the Society of Friends and Mennonites and set up draft counseling centers.
Have the guts to show the movie uncut and if some places say no, then call ACLU and file a First Amendment case if some venue wont let you show it.
Post #95985
Re:Questions For Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows and the Answ 1 Year, 11 Months ago
Quote
I am a new member and an mddle aged mom and student. Consider sending your kids to private Liberal Arts Colleges, such as Chapman University. This is where I first heard about and saw part of Zeitgeist Addendum. Some schools are still teaching people to think for themselves. As much as possible in the money-based economy we live in.
I go to school on a naval base...the last part of the movie could not be shown because of this last statement largely: "Whatever you do, do not let your friends, family or anyone you know..join the military!" The Zeitgeist Addendum-Peter Joseph.
[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]
[forum.culteducation.com]
Have there been other occasions when only part of ZM films were shown to the general public?
It will be interesting for us to see if this was the only time--or whether, later on, others come forward.
Now..how could the audience at that school get a full take on what ZM is all about if the part of the film in which Peter Joseph advises avoidance of military service is not shown?
Especially in the case when as the correspondant noted, the film was shown at a school on a naval base?
Many students there might well be from service families--and form quite a different personal take on ZM if they know that Peter Joseph advises against military service.
One has to remember that in this currently imperfect world, it is against the law in some countries to avoid or advise others on how to evade the draft. And in those countries there are heavy penalties.
If ZM has the courage of its principles, it should emulate the Society of Friends and Mennonites and set up draft counseling centers.
Have the guts to show the movie uncut and if some places say no, then call ACLU and file a First Amendment case if some venue wont let you show it.
Re: Zeitgeist and "Warning signs" of a potentially unsafe group
Posted by:
VTV
()
Date: March 07, 2011 08:38AM
Quote
corboy
Omitting to Show a Very Important Part of Zeitgeist Addendum
Post #95985
Re:Questions For Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows and the Answ 1 Year, 11 Months agoQuote
I am a new member and an mddle aged mom and student. Consider sending your kids to private Liberal Arts Colleges, such as Chapman University. This is where I first heard about and saw part of Zeitgeist Addendum. Some schools are still teaching people to think for themselves. As much as possible in the money-based economy we live in.
I go to school on a naval base...the last part of the movie could not be shown because of this last statement largely: "Whatever you do, do not let your friends, family or anyone you know..join the military!" The Zeitgeist Addendum-Peter Joseph.
[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]
[forum.culteducation.com]
Have there been other occasions when only part of ZM films were shown to the general public?
It will be interesting for us to see if this was the only time--or whether, later on, others come forward.
Now..how could the audience at that school get a full take on what ZM is all about if the part of the film in which Peter Joseph advises avoidance of military service is not shown?
Especially in the case when as the correspondant noted, the film was shown at a school on a naval base?
Many students there might well be from service families--and form quite a different personal take on ZM if they know that Peter Joseph advises against military service.
One has to remember that in this currently imperfect world, it is against the law in some countries to avoid or advise others on how to evade the draft. And in those countries there are heavy penalties.
If ZM has the courage of its principles, it should emulate the Society of Friends and Mennonites and set up draft counseling centers.
Have the guts to show the movie uncut and if some places say no, then call ACLU and file a First Amendment case if some venue wont let you show it.
Honestly, we have no control over situations like that. I think one of the things about the nature of the movement I have been trying to get through to people is that we can't be held responsible for what every single members decides to do. We don't have that sort of influence. (This is another reason it's not some evil coercive cult, the infrastructure is very loose, what your talking about likely happened without anyone involved in the actual administration knowing anything about it.)
And back on point, this also doesn't make us a cult.
Re: Zeitgeist and "Warning signs" of a potentially unsafe group
Posted by:
Prometheuspan
()
Date: March 07, 2011 11:01AM
Quote
vtvQuote
James Kush
They have tshirts,mugs, and other items with the likeness of Jacque Fresco:
[www.printfection.com]
Again, political activist movement. The "Campaign for Liberty" puts Ron Paul on stuff too. He is on those items in particular because of the funny quote from the last Zeitgeist movie.Quote
James
They have created small idols that represent the likeness of jacque fresco:
[thezeitgeistmovement.com]Quote
James
That is an artist's project. They are not IDOLS. WOW what a spin lol.
I think its very clear that these things taken alone would not constitute cult leader type status. As long as we allow vtv to dispense with them all as if they are all nothing. The problem is that they do stack up.
2 or 3 minor little things like having cups printed in Jaques likeness or having people argue over how right they are based on what Jaques said, or etc, might not really be proof or putting somebody on a pedastal.
But its not 2 or 3 things, Its too many things to list and we are only giving examples.Quote
vtv
So let me get this straight, he calls out someone from the media who was pretty obviously using the word "cult" to sell their article with the "Oooh ahhh" factor of the word and this is some sort of coercive thought reform? Give me a break.
So all vtv dismisses this person summarily as somebody whos merely operating with the word "cult" for the "ooh ah factor." In short, he can't and does not answer the content, he invalidates the person based on his own rhetorical
claims and spin and personal position regarding them.Quote
vtvQuote
vtv
So Peter was trying to make people "unreasonably afraid" when he slammed on the media doing what it always does and trying to find something negative to report on to get ratings? Or by suggesting that his films have views not necessarily shared by the rest of the movement?Quote
James
The fear tactics Zeitgeist uses is conspiracy. Basically, these people have been convinced that the economic end is near and the goal is to prepare for a violent introduction of a new peaceful unified global order Peter Merola calls "Perfection" and Jacque Fresco calls "Heaven on Earth".
There are several organizations that fear an economic collapse. None of them are cults. And it's not an unreasonable fear. And you are really quoting Peter and Jacque out of context here:
TZM exploits these fears, frames the discussion and problem definitions it does point to in black and white terms, demonizes the money system, And absolutely raises a spectre of the system with red devil horns painted on in
order to spook people with the boogey man. I'm concerened about collapse. I don't run around framing the discussion of it in terms that make it sound both inevitable and a happy thing since it would prove me to be right that
collapse is an issue or a problem, or that the current system is wrong. I'm trying to avoid collapse. TZM is telling everyone to do nothing and wait for it to happen or, counseling them to have a violent riot like revolution
in the streets against the banks.Quote
vtv
And as for your accusation that nobody in the Zeitgeist Movement is interested in actually researching things now, several members of the movement are involved with this project that is testing and developing sustainable technologies and giving them away FREE open source.
[www.youtube.com]
[www.youtube.com]
[www.youtube.com]
[www.youtube.com]
TZM is fighting against anybody who proposes actually doing anything in the current system, and tries to tell us we haveto wait until after collapse. I'm all ears tho. Exactly?
Please link us to these actual positive real world efforts that are actually doing something ?What you can't debunk is that the opressive, black and white thinking and absolute terms of the cult and how it frames the problem would likely trigger your average sociopath to explode if they took that stuff seriously. The movies are hypnotic, using binaural beats, and they paint a picture of gloom and doom that is absolutely represssive, and then they offer no solutions, to answers, no way out of the box.Quote
vtv
Another article SOLELY concentrated on the first film that was made by Peter Joseph back when he was a music major in college as part of a personal project. I have already debunked the nonsense that the movie could in any reasonable way be linked to Jared Loughner.
That probably is what drove the guy over the edge.Quote
vtv
It takes a bit more then some guy who had not even spoken to him for two years to suggest that. Not to mention Loughner had many youtube videos that were released not long before his shooting that showed views that are very much not in line with our suggested economic model.
irrelevant. He didn't agree with your model, he was spooked by your problem definitions.
Which are all of them polarized and polarizing and completely detached from the kind of neutral language which might open a door towards problem solving.Another veiled ad hom. VTV is not debunking anything.Quote
vtv
Now your repeating yourself. But I will debunk this twice.Quote
vtv
There is nothing baseless about the idea that we cannot continue to produce infinitely on a planet that has finite resources. There is nothing baseless about the idea that we cannot continue to pollute the earth and not expect it to become uninhabitable. Please provide me logic on why either of the above points are "baseless" or "unreasonable".
VTV spins and conflates. Those are real issues. And problems. And the cult offers no solutions. Whats baseless and irrational is that they can imagine all problems can be solved by a robogod.
Whats baseless and irrational is that they promote a violent revolution AGAINST the system, instead of an evolutionary process within it. Whats baseless and irrational is saying that there can and must be a global RBE
when thats simply systemically impossible- and then saying that there can be no creation of smaller systems because we are engaged in a protrated poker stare down to have a global RBE- GLOBAL. Not community...
Their one world order- their one world global domination of the earth by them and a robogod.Quote
vtv
We have already debunked this nonsense.
two ad homs, no content.
one lie.Quote
vtv
The forum is only used by a small amount of the organization. Zeitgeist members are not monitored for all of their communication in the way a cult would do this. You are stretching WAY far here.
Not at all. Recently on FB for instance, some women decided to have a Womens group. This group was infiltrated and trolled into the ground by VTV personally, to the extent that the women involved had to abandon
the first group and start a new one. VTV and TZM absolutely tried to exert absolute control and undue influence on the group, demanding name changes, rules changes, and in short attempting to absolutely control
those women and their group, to the point that a new group was made and had to be made just to get away from all the sick drama.
VTVs black list. They do in fact attempt to control information outside of the cult. VTV having my wiki shut down. Same thing. They attempt total information control about themselves and between members regarding them.Quote
vtv
1. Solid repetition of a given piece of information being used as misleading propaganda is very common in actual "thought reform" and an attempt to look like there is "plenty" of information to support one's claim when in reality they are just repeating the same thing they said earlier. ("We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud...")
2. You will notice he is not providing any context for either of the quotes he is attempting to spin here. As he is quote mining.
The spin doctor is you, but, lets ask James for his sources and links, shall we, ? instead of ad hommin him as a quote minder and spin doctor?Quote
vtv
4. Douglass has since apologized for his wording. But it was a comment made in conversation and the scenario that was actually painted was that in a possible future where we, a peaceful group trying to help people in the world build a food production facility and some nefarious group destroyed that facility likely killing hundreds of people in the process and leaving hundreds of thousands of others without food that action would have to be taken against them. I have seen this spun as "he thinks people should be killed for attacking a building" while very deceptively leaving all of the information about why that building would be attacked, and who could be hurt in the process out of the description. This is a classic example of someone public making a strong statement and then getting sound bited and taken out of context.
Its not out of context. Douglas said that the thing to do was annihilate anybody who bombed or etc any of TZMs cities. This proves where his head is at and how hes getting conditioned by the cult to think and reflex in absolutist and violent terms. He did not apologize, he went on a defensive rant. Thats not an apology, all he did was justify and excuse what he did not take responsibility for it or his actions.Quote
vtvQuote
James
The Zeitgeist movement believes that everything in the world today is destructive, including families, laws, governments, currency, nations, cultures, states, languages, religions, god, the list goes on and on. Everything is destructive except for The Venus Project which is "perfection" and "heaven on earth". So they strive to painfully for the non existent "perfect" venus project and "heaven on earth" by spreading the name "zeitgeist" and the movies made by Peter Joseph to everybody they know (this is called "awareness").
Ok, now we are getting into the realm of outright lying. In the Zeitgeist Orientation guide it actually talks about the benefits to families living in a Resource Based Economy and how much stronger the bonds will be when parents can actually spend a lot more time with their children in the economic model we suggest.
Again, vtv is ad homming. Again,. nobody is lying. TZM is against all governments, against all corporations, against all religions, against anybody making any community right now, against anybody doing anything right now for a real transition to prevent collapse. James may not have worded this eloquently but hes right. TZMs long list of enemies is pretty much everyone.
The good things they are for do not excuse this. They just act as carrots and bait.Quote
vtv
If through the scientific method we find that different concepts we are considering don't work, then those concepts are tossed out. It's really that simple. And it doesn't make us a cult to suggest that people use rational critical and analytical thinking to try and solve mankind's problems
Again, where is this scientific method? TVPs claims to use it are not borne out. No scientific method in the design of the city. No scientific method for management of the forums. No scientific method anywhere.
We are all for using rational thinking and analytical thinking to solve problems? when will this start? My group on FB is driving towards doing this. WE have an actual transition plan, and an actual metaprocess, and are using scientific principles to work the problems. TZM is not. You spinning it that we are against such things is just you trying to claim the moral high ground of reason or the scientific method or reasonable analysis. There is nothing reasonable or scientific or analytical about buildings that could never be built, robot gods ruling over us with the solutions to our problems, or rioting and "overthrowing the government " and "overthrowing the money system."Quote
vtv
rather then superstition or politics which are both proving to be failures.
This is not an alternative, tzm is merely another dogmatic system based in the current political paradigm, exploiting anti capitalist sentiment in pop culture, but selling fascist, totalitarian, robogod atheism, armageddon theology,
and violence.Quote
vtv
Your context on Peter Joseph believing that "man is god" is an atheist metaphor. Nothing more. Are all atheists cultists?
There are two kinds of atheists. Those who don't know or think or care that there is or might be a god, and those that spend their time and energy trolling religions in order to knock them down in order to prop themselves up.
The latter is most certainly cultish, in every sense, and TZM most certainly is ANTI religious, not atheist, so yes, people who take that position are engaging in cult mind and cognitive dissonance.
Since I am the genuine article kind of atheist this is easy to see. I don't disbelieve in god, I understand how the forces of nature work and what forces in nature are otherwise named god. The other problem with fake atheists is that they want to tell us that only material reality is real. They want to make fun of people and make them wrong for having real experiences, like talking with cosmic consciousness or astral projection. You have done this here to me, several times. A real atheist does not go out of their way to invalidate other people because of religion. That shows a reflexive andprojecting mind, which is fighting AGAINST something, DISBELIEVING in it actively rather than just not believing.
Your claims and TZMs Claims to be merely atheist are superflous. What the cult actually is, is anti christian, and anti religion. In short, combined with the armageddon theology, TZM/ TVP shares 50 or so core axioms with satanism. No. Thats not atheism, sorry.Quote
vtvQuote
James
In it, the founder of the movement Peter Joseph teaches that all religions are man made and that the biggest fraud is christianity, namely Jesus Christ. Merola teaches these same principles in radio interviews. So he teaches that god is artificial and man made.
Again. Because he is an atheist.
We don't have anything against honest atheism. Demonizing and diabolizing other religions in order to prop yourself up to look better than they are is not atheism, its satanism.Quote
vtvQuote
James
The whole scientific approach has been twisted by the movement that members do not apply the test aspect to ANY notions of the venus project. The leadership has made it very well known that NO RESEARCH IS BEING CONDUCTED and NO TEST CITY IS BEING BUILT. So where is the scientific method being applied? It is not, it is the common belief of the group that sacred science will prevail. Counterfeit science and backdoor oneness religion.
Again, we move into absolute falsehood. It is well known that the first step of implementing such a system is a test city. It is not what we are working on right now. Right now we are emphasizing helping people understand the concept, make people aware of the dangers of infinite production/pollution on a finite planet, and suggesting the solutions we have.
Again, no, what the "movement" actually says is that there will be no doing anything in concrete or pragmatic levels or physical reality until after collapse or until its a "GLOBAL" event. Local community organizing is in essence forbidden.
[www.youtube.com]
[www.youtube.com]
[www.youtube.com]
[www.youtube.com]Quote
vtv
So, to wrap this up.
I have exposed several deceptive tactics used in this report. Repetition, spin, quote mining, taking things out of context, etc.
No, he has spun and repeated and is now accidentally confessing what hes doing, while ad homming James.Quote
vtv
The poster has a history of engaging in just that quite a bit. As you can see from the various exposures here he has a tendency to provide links for comments taken out of context,
ad hom, and this is not proven really by you.Quote
vtv
and will slip some outright falsehoods next to misquotes to try and lend credibility to his argument.
ad hom, and, again, you are the one lying chronically and habitually here.Quote
vtv
This is not meant as a personal attack but to make the readers aware that this sort of thing is very common for him.
>I'm not ad homming. AD HOM. I'm not ad homming. AD HOM.<<<
See the pattern?Quote
vtv
It would be hard for someone who had not dealt with this from him to get the context of it and he is banking on that.
We are again dealing with a personality who has a personal grudge against the Zeitgeist Movement.
two more attacks, so now we are what? how many ad homs deep for this single response?
10?
WHY does he not like the cult? could it be that the cult abused him? Why would any person just spend so much time? Whats the grudge about?
VTV maligns everyones motives. It is his motives which are suspicious. Our motives are quite simple. WE know for a fact that this is a destructive and evil cult and we feel responsible to warn the public.
Re: Zeitgeist and "Warning signs" of a potentially unsafe group
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: March 07, 2011 10:54PM
Want a hoodie to show where your head's at?
It gets warm on the Playa.
There's even a 'onsie' for your baby
It gets warm on the Playa.
There's even a 'onsie' for your baby
Quote
jacque fresco Gifts
Related Searches: Resourced Based Economy merchandise, Peter Joseph gear, RBE gift, TZM apparel, The Venus Project clothing, The Zeitgeist Movement gifts, TVP stuff, Zeitgeist merchandise, NJ gear
You've come to the right place for jacque fresco gifts. Whether you're looking for jacque fresco t-shirts, bumper stickers or posters, CafePress has a large collection of unique gifts to choose from. And for you last minute gift shoppers, we ship most orders within 24 hours. We back all products with a 100% satisfaction guarantee, so you can shop with confidence. If you are looking for items you can customize, be sure to check out our personalized gifts selection.
Cute Jacque fresco Baby Onesie $15
See all products from the Cute Jacque fresco Baby Onesie collection »
(Go to website to see the picture)
[shop.cafepress.com]
Quote
http://www.google.com/search?q=jacque+fresco+mug&hl=en&source=hp&ie=ISO-8859-1&btnG=Search
Jacque Fresco Gifts, T-Shirts, Stickers, & More - CafePressShop our large selection of jacque fresco gifts, t-shirts, posters and stickers
starting at $5 . Unique jacque fresco designs. Fast shipping.
[shop.cafepress.com] - 72k - Cached - Similar pages
BrowseOrder The Venus Project original T-shirts and Mugs at Cafe Press · jacque-fresco
Learn to draw on the internet with Jacque Fresco ...
[www.thevenusproject.com] - 49k - Cached - Similar pages
Jacque Fresco T-Shirts, Jacque Fresco Shirt Designs, Hoodies, and ...Totally custom jacque fresco t-shirts from Zazzle.ca - Choose your favorite
jacque fresco ... All Products, T-Shirts, Invitations, Business Cards, Mugs ...
[www.zazzle.ca] - 151k - Cached - Similar pages
Jacque Fresco T-Shirts, Tee Shirts & other Customized Jacque ...Totally customizable jacque fresco t-shirts from Zazzle.com.au - Choose your
favourite jacque ... All Products, T-Shirts, Invitations, Business Cards, Mugs
...
[www.zazzle.com.au] - 150k - Cached - Similar pages
mugs printing or designing tutorials Download Rapidshare ...Download mugs printing designing tutorials hotfile rapidshare megaupload
fileserve filesonic, ... Tutorials : Jacque Fresco - Designing the Future ...
[www.downtr.net] - 41k - Cached - Similar pages
YouTube - Jacque Fresco from the Venus Project pt1Jan 20, 2010 ... Maybe some day someone will mug your mother and you will forgive ... Added to
queue The Venus Project Tour With Jacque Fresco - Tra...by ...
[www.youtube.com] - 115k - Cached - Similar pages
Jacque Tshirts T-Shirts for SaleZeitgeist-Jacque Fresco : Future of Design ... Please vist my gallery zazzle.com
/nameshirt for more JACQUES tshirts, mugs, hats . ...
[bigicetees.com] - 64k - Cached - Similar pages
Jacque Fresco Posters, Jacque Fresco Art & PrintsCompletely personalizable jacque fresco posters from Zazzle.co.nz - Choose your
favourite ... All Products, T-Shirts, Invitations, Business Cards, Mugs ...
[www.zazzle.co.nz] - 150k - Cached - Similar pages
Urban Dictionary: jacque frescobuy the venus project mugs, tshirts and magnets ... "Money is just another form
of physical slavery" -Jacque Fresco - Founder of TVP ...
[www.urbandictionary.com] - 25k - Cached - Similar pages
Re: Zeitgeist and "Warning signs" of a potentially unsafe group
Posted by:
VTV
()
Date: March 07, 2011 11:13PM
Quote
corboy
Want a hoodie to show where your head's at?
It gets warm on the Playa.
There's even a 'onsie' for your babyQuote
jacque fresco Gifts
Related Searches: Resourced Based Economy merchandise, Peter Joseph gear, RBE gift, TZM apparel, The Venus Project clothing, The Zeitgeist Movement gifts, TVP stuff, Zeitgeist merchandise, NJ gear
You've come to the right place for jacque fresco gifts. Whether you're looking for jacque fresco t-shirts, bumper stickers or posters, CafePress has a large collection of unique gifts to choose from. And for you last minute gift shoppers, we ship most orders within 24 hours. We back all products with a 100% satisfaction guarantee, so you can shop with confidence. If you are looking for items you can customize, be sure to check out our personalized gifts selection.
Cute Jacque fresco Baby Onesie $15
See all products from the Cute Jacque fresco Baby Onesie collection »
(Go to website to see the picture)
[shop.cafepress.com]Quote
http://www.google.com/search?q=jacque+fresco+mug&hl=en&source=hp&ie=ISO-8859-1&btnG=Search
Jacque Fresco Gifts, T-Shirts, Stickers, & More - CafePressShop our large selection of jacque fresco gifts, t-shirts, posters and stickers
starting at $5 . Unique jacque fresco designs. Fast shipping.
[shop.cafepress.com] - 72k - Cached - Similar pages
BrowseOrder The Venus Project original T-shirts and Mugs at Cafe Press · jacque-fresco
Learn to draw on the internet with Jacque Fresco ...
[www.thevenusproject.com] - 49k - Cached - Similar pages
Jacque Fresco T-Shirts, Jacque Fresco Shirt Designs, Hoodies, and ...Totally custom jacque fresco t-shirts from Zazzle.ca - Choose your favorite
jacque fresco ... All Products, T-Shirts, Invitations, Business Cards, Mugs ...
[www.zazzle.ca] - 151k - Cached - Similar pages
Jacque Fresco T-Shirts, Tee Shirts & other Customized Jacque ...Totally customizable jacque fresco t-shirts from Zazzle.com.au - Choose your
favourite jacque ... All Products, T-Shirts, Invitations, Business Cards, Mugs
...
[www.zazzle.com.au] - 150k - Cached - Similar pages
mugs printing or designing tutorials Download Rapidshare ...Download mugs printing designing tutorials hotfile rapidshare megaupload
fileserve filesonic, ... Tutorials : Jacque Fresco - Designing the Future ...
[www.downtr.net] - 41k - Cached - Similar pages
YouTube - Jacque Fresco from the Venus Project pt1Jan 20, 2010 ... Maybe some day someone will mug your mother and you will forgive ... Added to
queue The Venus Project Tour With Jacque Fresco - Tra...by ...
[www.youtube.com] - 115k - Cached - Similar pages
Jacque Tshirts T-Shirts for SaleZeitgeist-Jacque Fresco : Future of Design ... Please vist my gallery zazzle.com
/nameshirt for more JACQUES tshirts, mugs, hats . ...
[bigicetees.com] - 64k - Cached - Similar pages
Jacque Fresco Posters, Jacque Fresco Art & PrintsCompletely personalizable jacque fresco posters from Zazzle.co.nz - Choose your
favourite ... All Products, T-Shirts, Invitations, Business Cards, Mugs ...
[www.zazzle.co.nz] - 150k - Cached - Similar pages
Urban Dictionary: jacque frescobuy the venus project mugs, tshirts and magnets ... "Money is just another form
of physical slavery" -Jacque Fresco - Founder of TVP ...
[www.urbandictionary.com] - 25k - Cached - Similar pages
And? So what. Do a search for virtually any public figure's name on Cafe Press and you will get the same results.
Re: Zeitgeist and "Warning signs" of a potentially unsafe group
Posted by:
DavidWish
()
Date: March 08, 2011 01:29AM
Here are some quick notes to the readers of this thread.
1. I am, and have been, emotionally involved with the issue of TZM.
2. I have taken note of the moderation of this thread and other threads concerning TZM/TVP, especially concerning personal attacks, etc.
3. I have personally witnessed the destructiveness of mentally abusive cults.
4. In the context of the word abuse, it has been made clear here by Rick, that some form of physical damage, and proof thereof, must be presented. Such as black eyes, broken arms, deaths, etc.
5. I am a bit confused of whether or not Rick believes the words, “mental abuse”, constitute's real abuse. He does make it clear he wants to see something physical for the purposes of proof. If better words and understanding can be developed, I believe we can meet Rick’s requirements, whatever the criteria.
6. Rick is an established professional and has responsibilities. We always must be mindful of the realities of this world, in which others have their realities, and they are real.
7. For everyone to meet on common ground is clearly in the best interest of everyone involved.
8. My core problem with TZM/TVP is that they claim to have the “answer” and proper “direction”, by stating that some of their ideas are valid solutions, yet, they freely admit they do not have all the “answers”. Without the “answers”, they cannot validate their claim of having any sort of possible and workable answer. We can call this deception, lying, misrepresentation, etc.
9. I think what they are doing in the computing field is possibly, and eventually, more dangerous than creating actual weapons to control others.
10. I am taking a time out to calm down and will participate again when I believe my participation is more inline with the guidelines and goals here.
I was not trying to personally attack you Neil, although I did. I did not use the correct words to convey my concern for everyone involved. I apologize and I am taking the time to get things in calmer and in clearer order for the mutual benefit of all involved. Please refrain from calling people names like, “troll”, and possibly invoking their unreasonable side.
I would like to leave a few quotes:
Albert Einstein
Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal.
Stephen Hawking
I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it says something about human nature that the only life we have created so far is purely destructive. We’ve created life in our own image.
Dante
The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in a time of moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.
1. I am, and have been, emotionally involved with the issue of TZM.
2. I have taken note of the moderation of this thread and other threads concerning TZM/TVP, especially concerning personal attacks, etc.
3. I have personally witnessed the destructiveness of mentally abusive cults.
4. In the context of the word abuse, it has been made clear here by Rick, that some form of physical damage, and proof thereof, must be presented. Such as black eyes, broken arms, deaths, etc.
5. I am a bit confused of whether or not Rick believes the words, “mental abuse”, constitute's real abuse. He does make it clear he wants to see something physical for the purposes of proof. If better words and understanding can be developed, I believe we can meet Rick’s requirements, whatever the criteria.
6. Rick is an established professional and has responsibilities. We always must be mindful of the realities of this world, in which others have their realities, and they are real.
7. For everyone to meet on common ground is clearly in the best interest of everyone involved.
8. My core problem with TZM/TVP is that they claim to have the “answer” and proper “direction”, by stating that some of their ideas are valid solutions, yet, they freely admit they do not have all the “answers”. Without the “answers”, they cannot validate their claim of having any sort of possible and workable answer. We can call this deception, lying, misrepresentation, etc.
9. I think what they are doing in the computing field is possibly, and eventually, more dangerous than creating actual weapons to control others.
10. I am taking a time out to calm down and will participate again when I believe my participation is more inline with the guidelines and goals here.
I was not trying to personally attack you Neil, although I did. I did not use the correct words to convey my concern for everyone involved. I apologize and I am taking the time to get things in calmer and in clearer order for the mutual benefit of all involved. Please refrain from calling people names like, “troll”, and possibly invoking their unreasonable side.
I would like to leave a few quotes:
Albert Einstein
Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal.
Stephen Hawking
I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it says something about human nature that the only life we have created so far is purely destructive. We’ve created life in our own image.
Dante
The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in a time of moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.
Re: Zeitgeist and "Warning signs" of a potentially unsafe group
Posted by:
james kush
()
Date: March 08, 2011 01:52AM
I posted this in the main Zeitgeist thread. Shouldnt they be merged?
1. A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power.
Jacque Fresco's birthday has been made into the zeitgeist holiday called ZDAY. This is fact. VTV, your answer to this allegation was that you were never made aware. That doesn't change the fact. In fact, members know very well what Zday centers upon. "And here's our greatest opportunity: Z-Day 2011. The annual Zeitgeist Day, celebrated on and around Jacque Fresco's birthday, March 13th." [blog.thezeitgeistmovement.in] Pleading ignorance is not a affirmative defense.
In regards to the idols, you say that it is a artists project but on that link I provided the article is described as "merchandise" and the poster declares "I did it out of respect and admiration and also as a way to possibly help them get some more income if they wished to add it to their merchandise." According to the creator of the bust: "I did it out of respect and I felt that maybe other supporters of the project would enjoy having it as a reminder of the brilliant man that even at 94 is still trying to change the world."
Thought Terminating Cliche
VTV says: "So let me get this straight, he calls out someone from the media who was pretty obviously using the word "cult" to sell their article with the "Oooh ahhh" factor of the word and this is some sort of coercive thought reform? Give me a break. "
The point of that statement from Peter Joseph was not that he was calling out the person who made the accusation, the point is, he created a "thought terminating cliche" he dubbed "the circus" designed to get members to ignore all information presented by individuals using words like:
"cult"
"conspiracy theorist"
"communist"
"new world order"
"Marxist"
"satanist"
"theosophist"
"anti-freedom"
"anti-semetic"
"racist"
and other blanket distinctions which are both ambiguous and culturally objectionable on average.-Peter Joseph
He says those terms are "Tell-tale signs of The Circus". So basically, what he is doing is brain-locking followers to ignore and laugh off any and all the criticism that includes those words. Your response really has nothing to do with 'thought conforming cliches" or the use of such a cliche in the phrase "the circus". In fact, the use of the "circus" is not limited to one article, Peter Joseph has a lecture series on it:
[www.youtube.com]
[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]
Interesting use of "the circus" here:
[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]
This is thought control. Zeitgeist teaches people how to block criticism "rather than be surprised by "The Circus" when it comes to town, please expect it/understand it and look at it as a form of entertainment."-Peter Joseph.
In regards to my second example of "thought conforming clichés” "The movies are not the movement". Interestingly, you gave the same exact spill as a response:
[i"]The reason the "movies are not the movement" is because the first movie has nothing to do with what we are doing now. And in the movies Peter puts some material in the movie that members of the movement do not always agree with. But again, that's not "coercive thought re-form". -VTV[/i]
Yes it is because Zeitgeist teaches people right on its "knowledge database" (link provided), that the movies are not related to the movement, and then he goes on to say: "There is often some confusion in this regard and in the most extreme cases some people have the knee-jerk reaction that TZM support's forbidden "Conspiracy Theories" or is "Anti-Religious" or the like. This type or rhetoric tends to be of a pejorative/insulting nature, used in the context of dismissal of The Movement by an erroneous and "taboo" external association. The fact is, there is no association whatsoever." Peter Joseph [www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]
Zeitgeist is training people to ignore the criticism of the first film and to label those who criticize it as having a "knee jerk reaction" amongst other things. In fact, the "movement" was created during the ending segment of the "zeitgeist movie" sequel.
The first link on the "zeitgeistmovement" forum is directly associated with the first film:
[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]
Clearly, the founder is providing expanded material for "zeitgeist movement" to use, directly related to the first film! He says:
"So, if you happen to come across people who have absorbed the biased disposition that The Zeitgeist Movement 'must' be discredited because I, Peter Joseph, made a "debunked" film - please show them the above PDF. I can assure you it will keep them busy for a while... It's going to take a great effort to distort this one."- Peter Joseph [www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]
See, at this point, we have to stop and see why does this group try so hard to shake the first film! It is because it is a piece in the mind control/cult puzzle that damages their credibility.
How is "coercive persuasion" really different from normal persuasion?
VTV says: "So Peter was trying to make people "unreasonably afraid" when he slammed on the media doing what it always does and trying to find something negative to report on to get ratings? Or by suggesting that his films have views not necessarily shared by the rest of the movement? "
No, my point of "coercive persuasion" is the use of fear tactics. According to culteducation.com: "These are fears often not based upon objective reality, such as bizarre conspiracy theories, baseless projections of an impending catastrophe, crisis and/or physical danger." So Zeitgeist movement uses bizarre conspiracy theories, they use baseless projections for impending catastrophe, and yes, they even warn their followers to "mentally prepare for violence".
VTV: "There is nothing baseless about the idea that we cannot continue to pollute the earth and not expect it to become uninhabitable. Please provide me logic on why either of the above points are "baseless" or "unreasonable"."
The zeitgeist movies baseless projections are based on conspiracy. Do not twist zeitgeist to something it is not. Tell me now how the conspiracy notions presented by zeitgeist are not "baseless projections for impending catastrophe! In fact, that is the whole basis of Zeitgeist.
In regards to the doomsday notions, you respond:
VTV: "There are several organizations that fear an economic collapse."
VTV, please keep in mind, not any one criteria here makes me believe Zeitgeist is a cult, rather, when you take all the evidence collectively, a clearer picture emerges.
Ironically, the video you posted of Jacque fresco goes on to say that we "will all kill each other in our current system", more fear mongering. [www.youtube.com]
The only reason I posted the McCain link: [theothermccain.com] was because it showed the films segments and clearly outlines the conspiracy used in this film. You are bringing up the loughner mass murder, not me.
How can cults control information?
VTV, in regards to banning and blocking on zeitgeist forums: "We have already debunked this nonsense. The forum is only used by a small amount of the organization. Zeitgeist members are not monitored for all of their communication in the way a cult would do this. You are stretching WAY far here." -VTV
Yes because you ban/block does not make you a cult, but it does show how you control information, which is something cults do. Censoring posts, removing radio programs from your channel, block dissenters, all those things demonstrate "information control". My main point was to underline information control, as I said before, the primary use of information control by the Zeitgeist is not the banning/blocking, but rather the "cliches" that prevent members from thinking openly and critically about the group.
Destructive Cult Recruitment
VTV: "We don't hide anything from anyone. But the reason that information is not handed out to people is because it is not what the movement is about."
So you dont hide anything from anybody, yet you hide information that is predominate in your group because "it is not what your movement is about? Then explain this:
Jacque is clearly delivering a message to coordinators on how to infiltrate religion!
[www.youtube.com]
Zeitgeist Movement hates Christians:
[zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com]
Yes the movies is what the movement is about, here are members promoting zeitgeist and carrying around "zeitgeistmovie" banners:
[www.youtube.com]
Here members are handing out cards that say "Zeitgeistmovie" right on them:
[www.youtube.com]
Here are members handing out DVDs, [www.youtube.com] notice the guy speaks about the "monetary system" and "solutions", clearly, the zeitgeist movement is playing the "dummy card" thinking that people will not go back and see the first film, when the are handed part two, at which point, they will be hit with Peter Josephs esoteric/theosophical take on Christianity, 9/11 conspiracy, and "international bankers" and "chip implants". In fact, addendum includes a huge portion of pure conspiracy by a man named "john perkins" who has been declared a fraud and conspiracy theorists by the US government and reputable news outlets.
So clearly, we see Zeitgeist in a religious battle and is involved in conspiracy and yet when recruiting they leave those elements out, amongst other things.
I like your commentary on the discussion:
VTV: 1. Solid repetition of a given piece of information being used as misleading propaganda is very common in actual "thought reform" and an attempt to look like there is "plenty" of information to support one's claim when in reality they are just repeating the same thing they said earlier. ("We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud...")
2. You will notice he is not providing any context for either of the quotes he is attempting to spin here. As he is quote mining.
Lets stick to the subject and let the evidence speak for itself, shall we?
The Demand for Purity
1) douglas mallette is a lead technician for the zeitgeist movement. and YOU agreed with him that people needed to be "annihilated". You are the venus project official spokesperson, you said, "absolutely". The point is your group views yourself as seeking purity (organization seeking to feed children", and aggressors as "evil" and bad" that "deserve to die because they are worthless skin". This fits the demand for purity: "In the thought reform milieu, as in all situations of ideological totalism, the experiential world is sharply divided into the pure and the impure, into the absolutely good and the absolutely evil."
2) you are the official spokesman and you removed the whole murder dialog. more information control
3) VTV says "Your information about the UN is inaccurate" the issue at hand has nothing to do with the UN. It has to do with the "demand for purity". "The individual thus comes to apply the same totalist polarization of good and evil to his judgments of his own character: he tends to imbue certain aspects of himself with excessive virtue, and condemn even more excessively other personal qualities - all according to their ideological standing. He must also look upon his impurities as originating from outside influences - that is, from the ever-threatening world beyond the closed, totalist ken. Therefore, one of his best way to relieve himself of some of his burden of guilt is to denounce, continuously and hostilely, these same outside influences." I really dont care about the UN. Thats not why I posted that, it has to do with the violent nature of Venus Project "lead technician" member douglas mallette demonstrating how "EVIL" and "BAD" people who attack buildings need to die.
4) VTV says "Douglass has since apologized for his wording" Yeah, "wording", not beliefs. In his "apology" he takes the time to plug "attack preparation": [www.youtube.com] (More fear tactics)
VTV: I will let Doug speak for himself in that video that your attempting to spin. But Doug was very clear. We recognize that people may try to be violent even towards a peaceful group of people trying to implement this system, particularly if it was done during an economic/ecological collapse. You framed this as if Doug was trying to be a drill sergeant preparing people for war. Again extremely deceptive tactics. I notice you didn't post the entire video of Doug addressing that issue.
Yeah he was very clear. "Mentally prepare yourself for attacks". Anyways....
Understand it is this Good Vs Evil that I am talking about:
The Zeitgeist movement believes that everything in the world today is destructive, including families, laws, governments, currency, nations, cultures, states, languages, religions, god, the list goes on and on. Everything is destructive except for The Venus Project which is "perfection" and "heaven on earth". So they strive to painfully for the non existent "perfect" venus project and "heaven on earth" by spreading the name "zeitgeist" and the movies made by Peter Joseph to everybody they know (this is called "awareness").
VTV: Ok, now we are getting into the realm of outright lying. In the Zeitgeist Orientation guide it actually talks about the benefits to families living in a Resource Based Economy and how much stronger the bonds will be when parents can actually spend a lot more time with their children in the economic model we suggest.
AM I LYING? Really?? Whats this then?? [www.youtube.com] @about 1:25.
And after 4 minutes here he says there will be no families in Jacques future:
[www.youtube.com]
So clearly, you are trying to discredit me by saying im lying, instead just ask me for proof, which I can provide.
Demand For Purity
Yes this a blend of perfection and sacred science, or what Peter calls "functional spirituality". [www.youtube.com]
VTV: And in the video he says "It's not perfect at all" and uses the word "hopefully". Are you just hoping people are not going to actually watch the video? He says it's the best science can offer us through using the scientific method. This is further proof of deceptive debate on your part.
Yeah he says a variance of perfection. Its in the video, check it out.
VTV, I really dont care if “trolls” made this video where Frescos says he wants to create "heaven on earth". If somebody wants to hear the whole interview they can ask me for a link in PM for the whole context. youtube=http://www.youtube.com/user/anon11allofus#p/u/6/2m3fP3hNt2o
It it further evidence of the seeking of "purity". "Thought reform bears witness to its more malignant consequences: for by defining and manipulating the criteria of purity, and then by conducting an all-out war upon impurity, the ideological totalists create a narrow world of guilt and shame. This is perpetuated by an ethos of continuous reform, a demand that one strive permanently and painfully for something which not only does not exist but is in fact alien to the human condition."-culteducation.com
Sacred Science
Peter Joseph says "science and technology is divinity in action" youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRtX7rYh5ag
"Yet so strong a hold can the sacred science achieve over his mental processes that if one begins to feel himself attracted to ideas which either contradict or ignore it, he may become guilty and afraid. His quest for knowledge is consequently hampered, since in the name of science he is prevented from engaging in the receptive search for truth which characterizes the genuinely scientific approach. And his position is made more difficult by the absence, in a totalist environment, of any distinction between the sacred and the profane: there is no thought or action which cannot be related to the sacred science. To be sure, one can usually find areas of experience outside its immediate authority; but during periods of maximum totalist activity (like thought reform) any such areas are cut off, and there is virtually no escape from the milieu's ever-pressing edicts and demands. Whatever combination of continued adherence, inner resistance, or compromise co-existence the individual person adopts toward this blend of counterfeit science and back-door religion, it represents another continuous pressure toward personal closure, toward avoiding, rather than grappling with, the kinds of knowledge and experience necessary for genuine self-expression and for creative development" rick ross.com
VTVs reponse: "The video speaks for itself. Your again really trying to stretch" Yeah it does speak for itself, it says god is fake, jesus is fake, men are gods, and “science and technology is divinity in action”, “science is the tool for functional spirituality”. This is the core definition of sacred science. It is a element of cult criteria.
Peter Joseph says Christianity is a man made fraud and man is really god. "Mans creative ability is true divinity". youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYc7ZkloPIE&NR=1 For within the framework of the sacred science, and sweeping, non-rational "insights." Since the distinction between the logical and the mystical is, to begin with, artificial and man-made, an opportunity for transcending it can create an extremely intense feeling of truth. But the posture of unquestioning faith - both rationally and non-rationally derived - is not easy to sustain, especially if one discovers that the world of experience is not nearly as absolute as the sacred science claims it to be. culteducation.com
VTV response: "because he is an atheist" So what if he is a atheist? He is planting the seeds for his “sacred science”.
3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.
Zeitgeist is seeking economic gain. I have already provided evidence of this. I realize alot of places sell things and it doesnt make them a cult. But when you combine the sales with the leader "worship" and the various examples of though control being used, well then the picture of a "cult" emerges.
IN CONCLUSION:
VTV: "I have exposed several deceptive tactics used in this report. Repetition, spin, quote mining, taking things out of context, etc. The poster has a history of engaging in just that quite a bit. As you can see from the various exposures here he has a tendency to provide links for comments taken out of context, and will slip some outright falsehoods next to misquotes to try and lend credibility to his argument. This is not meant as a personal attack but to make the readers aware that this sort of thing is very common for him. It would be hard for someone who had not dealt with this from him to get the context of it and he is banking on that.
We are again dealing with a personality who has a personal grudge against the Zeitgeist Movement. And is hoping that you will label us a cult."
I have no personal grudge. I don’t need Rick Ross to label you a cult. In fact, based on the constant videos of your members, it is your movement who is in need of somebody to clear the cult tag. Here is a cache of audio/video demonstrating zeitgeist are trying to convince people they are not a cult: [zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com]
The need for my repetition (if any) is because many of the criteria of cults intertwine. For example, the "demand for purity" includes elements of "thought control cliches" and "fear tactics". So naturally, I would need to repeat some things. If I was "spinning" data, i would not provide the links. If I provide the complete convos. it would be hard to identify where my examples take place so I include condensed versions. However, people can see if Im "spinning" when they go research the items in their full context, if they need I will supply via PM.
You are also going out of your way to discredit me. You say i have a track record of these discussions but in fact my evidence is valid and I can prove it. The last time we had a discussion, I exposed the motto for ZDAY (fresco's bday) as coming from a lucifer worshiping mason. Within minutes it was removed from the official website and we have not discussed since. Clearly, if i am bring invalid points, you would not have deleted the Zeitgeist Slogan from the page! [zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com]
I am not trying to discredit you VTV, I am only demonstrating using direct statements and evidence from your group that shows much of the criteria of cults and mind control are reflective in your movement. Lets keep things civil and discuss the points, but please read why I am using this information. It is because the information fits within the context of:
#1 leadership
#2 control (thought termination clichés/coercive persuasion using fear tactics, fear tactics, information control/demand for purity/sacred science/ deceptive recruitment)
#3 gain
1. A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power.
Jacque Fresco's birthday has been made into the zeitgeist holiday called ZDAY. This is fact. VTV, your answer to this allegation was that you were never made aware. That doesn't change the fact. In fact, members know very well what Zday centers upon. "And here's our greatest opportunity: Z-Day 2011. The annual Zeitgeist Day, celebrated on and around Jacque Fresco's birthday, March 13th." [blog.thezeitgeistmovement.in] Pleading ignorance is not a affirmative defense.
In regards to the idols, you say that it is a artists project but on that link I provided the article is described as "merchandise" and the poster declares "I did it out of respect and admiration and also as a way to possibly help them get some more income if they wished to add it to their merchandise." According to the creator of the bust: "I did it out of respect and I felt that maybe other supporters of the project would enjoy having it as a reminder of the brilliant man that even at 94 is still trying to change the world."
Thought Terminating Cliche
VTV says: "So let me get this straight, he calls out someone from the media who was pretty obviously using the word "cult" to sell their article with the "Oooh ahhh" factor of the word and this is some sort of coercive thought reform? Give me a break. "
The point of that statement from Peter Joseph was not that he was calling out the person who made the accusation, the point is, he created a "thought terminating cliche" he dubbed "the circus" designed to get members to ignore all information presented by individuals using words like:
"cult"
"conspiracy theorist"
"communist"
"new world order"
"Marxist"
"satanist"
"theosophist"
"anti-freedom"
"anti-semetic"
"racist"
and other blanket distinctions which are both ambiguous and culturally objectionable on average.-Peter Joseph
He says those terms are "Tell-tale signs of The Circus". So basically, what he is doing is brain-locking followers to ignore and laugh off any and all the criticism that includes those words. Your response really has nothing to do with 'thought conforming cliches" or the use of such a cliche in the phrase "the circus". In fact, the use of the "circus" is not limited to one article, Peter Joseph has a lecture series on it:
[www.youtube.com]
[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]
Interesting use of "the circus" here:
[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]
This is thought control. Zeitgeist teaches people how to block criticism "rather than be surprised by "The Circus" when it comes to town, please expect it/understand it and look at it as a form of entertainment."-Peter Joseph.
In regards to my second example of "thought conforming clichés” "The movies are not the movement". Interestingly, you gave the same exact spill as a response:
[i"]The reason the "movies are not the movement" is because the first movie has nothing to do with what we are doing now. And in the movies Peter puts some material in the movie that members of the movement do not always agree with. But again, that's not "coercive thought re-form". -VTV[/i]
Yes it is because Zeitgeist teaches people right on its "knowledge database" (link provided), that the movies are not related to the movement, and then he goes on to say: "There is often some confusion in this regard and in the most extreme cases some people have the knee-jerk reaction that TZM support's forbidden "Conspiracy Theories" or is "Anti-Religious" or the like. This type or rhetoric tends to be of a pejorative/insulting nature, used in the context of dismissal of The Movement by an erroneous and "taboo" external association. The fact is, there is no association whatsoever." Peter Joseph [www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]
Zeitgeist is training people to ignore the criticism of the first film and to label those who criticize it as having a "knee jerk reaction" amongst other things. In fact, the "movement" was created during the ending segment of the "zeitgeist movie" sequel.
The first link on the "zeitgeistmovement" forum is directly associated with the first film:
[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]
Clearly, the founder is providing expanded material for "zeitgeist movement" to use, directly related to the first film! He says:
"So, if you happen to come across people who have absorbed the biased disposition that The Zeitgeist Movement 'must' be discredited because I, Peter Joseph, made a "debunked" film - please show them the above PDF. I can assure you it will keep them busy for a while... It's going to take a great effort to distort this one."- Peter Joseph [www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]
See, at this point, we have to stop and see why does this group try so hard to shake the first film! It is because it is a piece in the mind control/cult puzzle that damages their credibility.
How is "coercive persuasion" really different from normal persuasion?
VTV says: "So Peter was trying to make people "unreasonably afraid" when he slammed on the media doing what it always does and trying to find something negative to report on to get ratings? Or by suggesting that his films have views not necessarily shared by the rest of the movement? "
No, my point of "coercive persuasion" is the use of fear tactics. According to culteducation.com: "These are fears often not based upon objective reality, such as bizarre conspiracy theories, baseless projections of an impending catastrophe, crisis and/or physical danger." So Zeitgeist movement uses bizarre conspiracy theories, they use baseless projections for impending catastrophe, and yes, they even warn their followers to "mentally prepare for violence".
VTV: "There is nothing baseless about the idea that we cannot continue to pollute the earth and not expect it to become uninhabitable. Please provide me logic on why either of the above points are "baseless" or "unreasonable"."
The zeitgeist movies baseless projections are based on conspiracy. Do not twist zeitgeist to something it is not. Tell me now how the conspiracy notions presented by zeitgeist are not "baseless projections for impending catastrophe! In fact, that is the whole basis of Zeitgeist.
In regards to the doomsday notions, you respond:
VTV: "There are several organizations that fear an economic collapse."
VTV, please keep in mind, not any one criteria here makes me believe Zeitgeist is a cult, rather, when you take all the evidence collectively, a clearer picture emerges.
Ironically, the video you posted of Jacque fresco goes on to say that we "will all kill each other in our current system", more fear mongering. [www.youtube.com]
The only reason I posted the McCain link: [theothermccain.com] was because it showed the films segments and clearly outlines the conspiracy used in this film. You are bringing up the loughner mass murder, not me.
How can cults control information?
VTV, in regards to banning and blocking on zeitgeist forums: "We have already debunked this nonsense. The forum is only used by a small amount of the organization. Zeitgeist members are not monitored for all of their communication in the way a cult would do this. You are stretching WAY far here." -VTV
Yes because you ban/block does not make you a cult, but it does show how you control information, which is something cults do. Censoring posts, removing radio programs from your channel, block dissenters, all those things demonstrate "information control". My main point was to underline information control, as I said before, the primary use of information control by the Zeitgeist is not the banning/blocking, but rather the "cliches" that prevent members from thinking openly and critically about the group.
Destructive Cult Recruitment
VTV: "We don't hide anything from anyone. But the reason that information is not handed out to people is because it is not what the movement is about."
So you dont hide anything from anybody, yet you hide information that is predominate in your group because "it is not what your movement is about? Then explain this:
Jacque is clearly delivering a message to coordinators on how to infiltrate religion!
[www.youtube.com]
Zeitgeist Movement hates Christians:
[zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com]
Yes the movies is what the movement is about, here are members promoting zeitgeist and carrying around "zeitgeistmovie" banners:
[www.youtube.com]
Here members are handing out cards that say "Zeitgeistmovie" right on them:
[www.youtube.com]
Here are members handing out DVDs, [www.youtube.com] notice the guy speaks about the "monetary system" and "solutions", clearly, the zeitgeist movement is playing the "dummy card" thinking that people will not go back and see the first film, when the are handed part two, at which point, they will be hit with Peter Josephs esoteric/theosophical take on Christianity, 9/11 conspiracy, and "international bankers" and "chip implants". In fact, addendum includes a huge portion of pure conspiracy by a man named "john perkins" who has been declared a fraud and conspiracy theorists by the US government and reputable news outlets.
So clearly, we see Zeitgeist in a religious battle and is involved in conspiracy and yet when recruiting they leave those elements out, amongst other things.
I like your commentary on the discussion:
VTV: 1. Solid repetition of a given piece of information being used as misleading propaganda is very common in actual "thought reform" and an attempt to look like there is "plenty" of information to support one's claim when in reality they are just repeating the same thing they said earlier. ("We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud...")
2. You will notice he is not providing any context for either of the quotes he is attempting to spin here. As he is quote mining.
Lets stick to the subject and let the evidence speak for itself, shall we?
The Demand for Purity
1) douglas mallette is a lead technician for the zeitgeist movement. and YOU agreed with him that people needed to be "annihilated". You are the venus project official spokesperson, you said, "absolutely". The point is your group views yourself as seeking purity (organization seeking to feed children", and aggressors as "evil" and bad" that "deserve to die because they are worthless skin". This fits the demand for purity: "In the thought reform milieu, as in all situations of ideological totalism, the experiential world is sharply divided into the pure and the impure, into the absolutely good and the absolutely evil."
2) you are the official spokesman and you removed the whole murder dialog. more information control
3) VTV says "Your information about the UN is inaccurate" the issue at hand has nothing to do with the UN. It has to do with the "demand for purity". "The individual thus comes to apply the same totalist polarization of good and evil to his judgments of his own character: he tends to imbue certain aspects of himself with excessive virtue, and condemn even more excessively other personal qualities - all according to their ideological standing. He must also look upon his impurities as originating from outside influences - that is, from the ever-threatening world beyond the closed, totalist ken. Therefore, one of his best way to relieve himself of some of his burden of guilt is to denounce, continuously and hostilely, these same outside influences." I really dont care about the UN. Thats not why I posted that, it has to do with the violent nature of Venus Project "lead technician" member douglas mallette demonstrating how "EVIL" and "BAD" people who attack buildings need to die.
4) VTV says "Douglass has since apologized for his wording" Yeah, "wording", not beliefs. In his "apology" he takes the time to plug "attack preparation": [www.youtube.com] (More fear tactics)
VTV: I will let Doug speak for himself in that video that your attempting to spin. But Doug was very clear. We recognize that people may try to be violent even towards a peaceful group of people trying to implement this system, particularly if it was done during an economic/ecological collapse. You framed this as if Doug was trying to be a drill sergeant preparing people for war. Again extremely deceptive tactics. I notice you didn't post the entire video of Doug addressing that issue.
Yeah he was very clear. "Mentally prepare yourself for attacks". Anyways....
Understand it is this Good Vs Evil that I am talking about:
The Zeitgeist movement believes that everything in the world today is destructive, including families, laws, governments, currency, nations, cultures, states, languages, religions, god, the list goes on and on. Everything is destructive except for The Venus Project which is "perfection" and "heaven on earth". So they strive to painfully for the non existent "perfect" venus project and "heaven on earth" by spreading the name "zeitgeist" and the movies made by Peter Joseph to everybody they know (this is called "awareness").
VTV: Ok, now we are getting into the realm of outright lying. In the Zeitgeist Orientation guide it actually talks about the benefits to families living in a Resource Based Economy and how much stronger the bonds will be when parents can actually spend a lot more time with their children in the economic model we suggest.
AM I LYING? Really?? Whats this then?? [www.youtube.com] @about 1:25.
And after 4 minutes here he says there will be no families in Jacques future:
[www.youtube.com]
So clearly, you are trying to discredit me by saying im lying, instead just ask me for proof, which I can provide.
Demand For Purity
Yes this a blend of perfection and sacred science, or what Peter calls "functional spirituality". [www.youtube.com]
VTV: And in the video he says "It's not perfect at all" and uses the word "hopefully". Are you just hoping people are not going to actually watch the video? He says it's the best science can offer us through using the scientific method. This is further proof of deceptive debate on your part.
Yeah he says a variance of perfection. Its in the video, check it out.
VTV, I really dont care if “trolls” made this video where Frescos says he wants to create "heaven on earth". If somebody wants to hear the whole interview they can ask me for a link in PM for the whole context. youtube=http://www.youtube.com/user/anon11allofus#p/u/6/2m3fP3hNt2o
It it further evidence of the seeking of "purity". "Thought reform bears witness to its more malignant consequences: for by defining and manipulating the criteria of purity, and then by conducting an all-out war upon impurity, the ideological totalists create a narrow world of guilt and shame. This is perpetuated by an ethos of continuous reform, a demand that one strive permanently and painfully for something which not only does not exist but is in fact alien to the human condition."-culteducation.com
Sacred Science
Peter Joseph says "science and technology is divinity in action" youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRtX7rYh5ag
"Yet so strong a hold can the sacred science achieve over his mental processes that if one begins to feel himself attracted to ideas which either contradict or ignore it, he may become guilty and afraid. His quest for knowledge is consequently hampered, since in the name of science he is prevented from engaging in the receptive search for truth which characterizes the genuinely scientific approach. And his position is made more difficult by the absence, in a totalist environment, of any distinction between the sacred and the profane: there is no thought or action which cannot be related to the sacred science. To be sure, one can usually find areas of experience outside its immediate authority; but during periods of maximum totalist activity (like thought reform) any such areas are cut off, and there is virtually no escape from the milieu's ever-pressing edicts and demands. Whatever combination of continued adherence, inner resistance, or compromise co-existence the individual person adopts toward this blend of counterfeit science and back-door religion, it represents another continuous pressure toward personal closure, toward avoiding, rather than grappling with, the kinds of knowledge and experience necessary for genuine self-expression and for creative development" rick ross.com
VTVs reponse: "The video speaks for itself. Your again really trying to stretch" Yeah it does speak for itself, it says god is fake, jesus is fake, men are gods, and “science and technology is divinity in action”, “science is the tool for functional spirituality”. This is the core definition of sacred science. It is a element of cult criteria.
Peter Joseph says Christianity is a man made fraud and man is really god. "Mans creative ability is true divinity". youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYc7ZkloPIE&NR=1 For within the framework of the sacred science, and sweeping, non-rational "insights." Since the distinction between the logical and the mystical is, to begin with, artificial and man-made, an opportunity for transcending it can create an extremely intense feeling of truth. But the posture of unquestioning faith - both rationally and non-rationally derived - is not easy to sustain, especially if one discovers that the world of experience is not nearly as absolute as the sacred science claims it to be. culteducation.com
VTV response: "because he is an atheist" So what if he is a atheist? He is planting the seeds for his “sacred science”.
3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.
Zeitgeist is seeking economic gain. I have already provided evidence of this. I realize alot of places sell things and it doesnt make them a cult. But when you combine the sales with the leader "worship" and the various examples of though control being used, well then the picture of a "cult" emerges.
IN CONCLUSION:
VTV: "I have exposed several deceptive tactics used in this report. Repetition, spin, quote mining, taking things out of context, etc. The poster has a history of engaging in just that quite a bit. As you can see from the various exposures here he has a tendency to provide links for comments taken out of context, and will slip some outright falsehoods next to misquotes to try and lend credibility to his argument. This is not meant as a personal attack but to make the readers aware that this sort of thing is very common for him. It would be hard for someone who had not dealt with this from him to get the context of it and he is banking on that.
We are again dealing with a personality who has a personal grudge against the Zeitgeist Movement. And is hoping that you will label us a cult."
I have no personal grudge. I don’t need Rick Ross to label you a cult. In fact, based on the constant videos of your members, it is your movement who is in need of somebody to clear the cult tag. Here is a cache of audio/video demonstrating zeitgeist are trying to convince people they are not a cult: [zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com]
The need for my repetition (if any) is because many of the criteria of cults intertwine. For example, the "demand for purity" includes elements of "thought control cliches" and "fear tactics". So naturally, I would need to repeat some things. If I was "spinning" data, i would not provide the links. If I provide the complete convos. it would be hard to identify where my examples take place so I include condensed versions. However, people can see if Im "spinning" when they go research the items in their full context, if they need I will supply via PM.
You are also going out of your way to discredit me. You say i have a track record of these discussions but in fact my evidence is valid and I can prove it. The last time we had a discussion, I exposed the motto for ZDAY (fresco's bday) as coming from a lucifer worshiping mason. Within minutes it was removed from the official website and we have not discussed since. Clearly, if i am bring invalid points, you would not have deleted the Zeitgeist Slogan from the page! [zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com]
I am not trying to discredit you VTV, I am only demonstrating using direct statements and evidence from your group that shows much of the criteria of cults and mind control are reflective in your movement. Lets keep things civil and discuss the points, but please read why I am using this information. It is because the information fits within the context of:
#1 leadership
#2 control (thought termination clichés/coercive persuasion using fear tactics, fear tactics, information control/demand for purity/sacred science/ deceptive recruitment)
#3 gain
Re: Zeitgeist and "Warning signs" of a potentially unsafe group
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: March 08, 2011 02:03AM
See [www.culteducation.com]
Destructive Cult
* What are the characteristics of a destructive "cult" or group?
Margaret Singer, clinical psychologist and once Professor of Psychology at the University of California, Berkeley was the preeminent cult expert of the 20th Century. She counseled and/or interviewed thousands of people affected by controversial groups often called "cults." Dr. Singer offered meaningful definitions of unsafe groups or "cults" in her book Cults in our Midst.
According to Singer, unsafe groups or cults can generally be defined by three factors:
1. The origin of the group and role of the leader.
2. The power structure, or relationship between the leader and the followers.
3. The use of a coordinated program of persuasion, which is called thought reform [or more commonly, 'brainwashing'"].
* What typifies an unsafe group or "cult's" leadership and structure?
Again, a good working understanding has been provided by Margaret Singer: "In most cases, there is one person, typically the founder at the top...decision making centers in him or her." Illustrating the structure Singer says, "imagine an inverted T. The leader is alone at the top and the followers are all at the bottom". There is little if any accountability and as Singer says, "the overriding philosophy...is that the ends justify the means, a view that allows [such groups] to establish their own brand of morality, outside normal society bounds".
* What specifically would define a group or "cult" as unsafe?
Unsafe groups or "cults" often abuse and exploit their members. This abuse may occur in the areas of finances, physical labor, child abuse and neglect, medical neglect, sexual exploitation and/or psychological and emotional abuse.
Extreme examples of destructive behavior have been historically recorded in such groups as the Waco Davidians, the cult suicides of "Heaven's Gate" and the Solar Temple of Switzerland and the suicide/murder of almost one thousand members of the Peoples Temple ordered by Jim Jones. In 1995 the Japanese cult known as Aum, the followers of Shoko Asahara, gassed the subways of Tokyo with the deadly poison gas sarin, killing twelve and injuring thousands of citizens. Perhaps the most deaths ever caused by a single cult in modern history can be attributed to the "Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments" of Uganda. Shortly after the turn of the century 780 bodies were found after a reign of terror that included murder and possibly mass suicide. But due to the isolated circumstances of the group many believe all the bodies will never be recovered, placing the actual loss of life much higher, possibly greater than Jonestown.
If TZM is a "destructive cult" there should be a recognized pattern of abuse, as reported by families concerned about loved ones involved with the group. For example, they would complain about family estrangements, the relative isolation of members from family and old friends, financial exploitation, psychological abuse, etc.
Typically as complaints increase there is also often media attention, e.g. press or television news reports that feature complaints from families and former members.
Other evidence might be personal injury claims as evidenced by lawsuits filed against the group by those hurt.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2011 02:50AM by rrmoderator.
Destructive Cult
* What are the characteristics of a destructive "cult" or group?
Margaret Singer, clinical psychologist and once Professor of Psychology at the University of California, Berkeley was the preeminent cult expert of the 20th Century. She counseled and/or interviewed thousands of people affected by controversial groups often called "cults." Dr. Singer offered meaningful definitions of unsafe groups or "cults" in her book Cults in our Midst.
According to Singer, unsafe groups or cults can generally be defined by three factors:
1. The origin of the group and role of the leader.
2. The power structure, or relationship between the leader
3. The use of a coordinated program of persuasion, which is called thought reform [or more commonly, 'brainwashing'"].
* What typifies an unsafe group or "cult's" leadership and structure?
Again, a good working understanding has been provided by Margaret Singer: "In most cases, there is one person, typically the founder at the top...decision making centers in him or her." Illustrating the structure Singer says, "imagine an inverted T. The leader is alone at the top and the followers are all at the bottom". There is little if any accountability and as Singer says, "the overriding philosophy...is that the ends justify the means, a view that allows [such groups] to establish their own brand of morality, outside normal society bounds".
* What specifically would define a group or "cult" as unsafe?
Unsafe groups or "cults" often abuse and exploit their members. This abuse may occur in the areas of finances, physical labor, child abuse and neglect, medical neglect, sexual exploitation and/or psychological and emotional abuse.
Extreme examples of destructive behavior have been historically recorded in such groups as the Waco Davidians, the cult suicides of "Heaven's Gate" and the Solar Temple of Switzerland and the suicide/murder of almost one thousand members of the Peoples Temple ordered by Jim Jones. In 1995 the Japanese cult known as Aum, the followers of Shoko Asahara, gassed the subways of Tokyo with the deadly poison gas sarin, killing twelve and injuring thousands of citizens. Perhaps the most deaths ever caused by a single cult in modern history can be attributed to the "Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments" of Uganda. Shortly after the turn of the century 780 bodies were found after a reign of terror that included murder and possibly mass suicide. But due to the isolated circumstances of the group many believe all the bodies will never be recovered, placing the actual loss of life much higher, possibly greater than Jonestown.
If TZM is a "destructive cult" there should be a recognized pattern of abuse, as reported by families concerned about loved ones involved with the group. For example, they would complain about family estrangements, the relative isolation of members from family and old friends, financial exploitation, psychological abuse, etc.
Typically as complaints increase there is also often media attention, e.g. press or television news reports that feature complaints from families and former members.
Other evidence might be personal injury claims as evidenced by lawsuits filed against the group by those hurt.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2011 02:50AM by rrmoderator.
Re: Zeitgeist and "Warning signs" of a potentially unsafe group
Posted by:
E.P. Grondine
()
Date: March 08, 2011 06:13AM
I just want to add that the sure sign of a cult is the lies.
Let's start with ZM's founder - what is his real name?
Let's move on to ZM's origins. The first ZM film was simply a combination of elements from the David Hatcher Childress/ Duncan Roads operation. Their catalogues provide the materials for anyone wanting to start a cult or militia movement.
And that operation started with the business partnership of cult leader Richard Kieninger with David Hatcher Childress.
Let's go on to ZM's claims. They claim to be "scientific", when that is demonstrably no so.
Let's start with ZM's founder - what is his real name?
Let's move on to ZM's origins. The first ZM film was simply a combination of elements from the David Hatcher Childress/ Duncan Roads operation. Their catalogues provide the materials for anyone wanting to start a cult or militia movement.
And that operation started with the business partnership of cult leader Richard Kieninger with David Hatcher Childress.
Let's go on to ZM's claims. They claim to be "scientific", when that is demonstrably no so.
Re: Zeitgeist and "Warning signs" of a potentially unsafe group
Posted by:
james kush
()
Date: March 08, 2011 06:50AM
@RRModerator Thank you for pointing me to Singers criteria. I will review. That said, the criteria I used was Liftons, based on your exchange with prometheus pan:
rrmoderator
Date Added: 06/17/2002
Posts: 4117
Re: Zeitgeist and "Warning signs" of a potentially unsafe group
Prometheuspan:
You have not made a convincing argument regarding your "cult" claim.
Again, Lifton defined a cult as having the following three characteristics:
1. A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power.
2. A process [is in use] call[ed] coercive persuasion or thought reform.
3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.
These criteria are not really evident from your posted comments here.
rrmoderator
Date Added: 06/17/2002
Posts: 4117
Re: Zeitgeist and "Warning signs" of a potentially unsafe group
Prometheuspan:
You have not made a convincing argument regarding your "cult" claim.
Again, Lifton defined a cult as having the following three characteristics:
1. A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power.
2. A process [is in use] call[ed] coercive persuasion or thought reform.
3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.
These criteria are not really evident from your posted comments here.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.