I posted this in the main Zeitgeist thread. Shouldnt they be merged?1. A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power.
Jacque Fresco's birthday has been made into the zeitgeist holiday called ZDAY. This is fact. VTV, your answer to this allegation was that you were never made aware. That doesn't change the fact. In fact, members know very well what Zday centers upon. "And here's our greatest opportunity: Z-Day 2011. The annual Zeitgeist Day, celebrated on and around Jacque Fresco's birthday, March 13th."
] Pleading ignorance is not a affirmative defense.
In regards to the idols, you say that it is a artists project but on that link I provided the article is described as "merchandise" and the poster declares "I did it out of respect and admiration and also as a way to possibly help them get some more income if they wished to add it to their merchandise." According to the creator of the bust: "I did it out of respect and I felt that maybe other supporters of the project would enjoy having it as a reminder of the brilliant man that even at 94 is still trying to change the world."Thought Terminating ClicheVTV says: "So let me get this straight, he calls out someone from the media who was pretty obviously using the word "cult" to sell their article with the "Oooh ahhh" factor of the word and this is some sort of coercive thought reform? Give me a break. "
The point of that statement from Peter Joseph was not that he was calling out the person who made the accusation, the point is, he created a "thought terminating cliche" he dubbed "the circus" designed to get members to ignore all information presented by individuals using words like:"cult"
"new world order"
and other blanket distinctions which are both ambiguous and culturally objectionable on average.-Peter Joseph
He says those terms are "Tell-tale signs of The Circus". So basically, what he is doing is brain-locking followers to ignore and laugh off any and all the criticism that includes those words. Your response really has nothing to do with 'thought conforming cliches" or the use of such a cliche in the phrase "the circus". In fact, the use of the "circus" is not limited to one article, Peter Joseph has a lecture series on it:
Interesting use of "the circus" here:
This is thought control. Zeitgeist teaches people how to block criticism "rather than be surprised by "The Circus" when it comes to town, please expect it/understand it and look at it as a form of entertainment."-Peter Joseph
In regards to my second example of "thought conforming clichés” "The movies are not the movement". Interestingly, you gave the same exact spill as a response:[i"]The reason the "movies are not the movement" is because the first movie has nothing to do with what we are doing now. And in the movies Peter puts some material in the movie that members of the movement do not always agree with. But again, that's not "coercive thought re-form". -VTV[/i]
Yes it is because Zeitgeist teaches people right on its "knowledge database" (link provided), that the movies are not related to the movement, and then he goes on to say: "There is often some confusion in this regard and in the most extreme cases some people have the knee-jerk reaction that TZM support's forbidden "Conspiracy Theories" or is "Anti-Religious" or the like. This type or rhetoric tends to be of a pejorative/insulting nature, used in the context of dismissal of The Movement by an erroneous and "taboo" external association. The fact is, there is no association whatsoever." Peter Joseph [www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]
Zeitgeist is training people to ignore the criticism of the first film and to label those who criticize it as having a "knee jerk reaction" amongst other things. In fact, the "movement" was created during the ending segment of the "zeitgeist movie" sequel.
The first link on the "zeitgeistmovement" forum is directly associated with the first film:
Clearly, the founder is providing expanded material for "zeitgeist movement" to use, directly related to the first film! He says:"So, if you happen to come across people who have absorbed the biased disposition that The Zeitgeist Movement 'must' be discredited because I, Peter Joseph, made a "debunked" film - please show them the above PDF. I can assure you it will keep them busy for a while... It's going to take a great effort to distort this one."- Peter Joseph [www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]
See, at this point, we have to stop and see why does this group try so hard to shake the first film! It is because it is a piece in the mind control/cult puzzle that damages their credibility.How is "coercive persuasion" really different from normal persuasion?VTV says: "So Peter was trying to make people "unreasonably afraid" when he slammed on the media doing what it always does and trying to find something negative to report on to get ratings? Or by suggesting that his films have views not necessarily shared by the rest of the movement? "
No, my point of "coercive persuasion" is the use of fear tactics. According to culteducation.com: "These are fears often not based upon objective reality, such as bizarre conspiracy theories, baseless projections of an impending catastrophe, crisis and/or physical danger." So Zeitgeist movement uses bizarre conspiracy theories, they use baseless projections for impending catastrophe, and yes, they even warn their followers to "mentally prepare for violence".VTV: "There is nothing baseless about the idea that we cannot continue to pollute the earth and not expect it to become uninhabitable. Please provide me logic on why either of the above points are "baseless" or "unreasonable"."
The zeitgeist movies baseless projections are based on conspiracy. Do not twist zeitgeist to something it is not. Tell me now how the conspiracy notions presented by zeitgeist are not "baseless projections for impending catastrophe! In fact, that is the whole basis of Zeitgeist.
In regards to the doomsday notions, you respond:VTV: "There are several organizations that fear an economic collapse."
VTV, please keep in mind, not any one criteria here makes me believe Zeitgeist is a cult, rather, when you take all the evidence collectively, a clearer picture emerges.
Ironically, the video you posted of Jacque fresco goes on to say that we "will all kill each other in our current system", more fear mongering. [www.youtube.com
The only reason I posted the McCain link: [theothermccain.com
] was because it showed the films segments and clearly outlines the conspiracy used in this film. You are bringing up the loughner mass murder, not me.How can cults control information?VTV, in regards to banning and blocking on zeitgeist forums: "We have already debunked this nonsense. The forum is only used by a small amount of the organization. Zeitgeist members are not monitored for all of their communication in the way a cult would do this. You are stretching WAY far here." -VTV
Yes because you ban/block does not make you a cult, but it does show how you control information, which is something cults do. Censoring posts, removing radio programs from your channel, block dissenters, all those things demonstrate "information control". My main point was to underline information control, as I said before, the primary use of information control by the Zeitgeist is not the banning/blocking, but rather the "cliches" that prevent members from thinking openly and critically about the group.Destructive Cult RecruitmentVTV: "We don't hide anything from anyone. But the reason that information is not handed out to people is because it is not what the movement is about."
So you dont hide anything from anybody, yet you hide information that is predominate in your group because "it is not what your movement is about? Then explain this:
Jacque is clearly delivering a message to coordinators on how to infiltrate religion!
Zeitgeist Movement hates Christians:
Yes the movies is what the movement is about, here are members promoting zeitgeist and carrying around "zeitgeistmovie" banners:
Here members are handing out cards that say "Zeitgeistmovie" right on them:
Here are members handing out DVDs, [www.youtube.com
] notice the guy speaks about the "monetary system" and "solutions", clearly, the zeitgeist movement is playing the "dummy card" thinking that people will not go back and see the first film, when the are handed part two, at which point, they will be hit with Peter Josephs esoteric/theosophical take on Christianity, 9/11 conspiracy, and "international bankers" and "chip implants". In fact, addendum includes a huge portion of pure conspiracy by a man named "john perkins" who has been declared a fraud and conspiracy theorists by the US government and reputable news outlets.
So clearly, we see Zeitgeist in a religious battle and is involved in conspiracy and yet when recruiting they leave those elements out, amongst other things.
I like your commentary on the discussion:VTV: 1. Solid repetition of a given piece of information being used as misleading propaganda is very common in actual "thought reform" and an attempt to look like there is "plenty" of information to support one's claim when in reality they are just repeating the same thing they said earlier. ("We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud...")
2. You will notice he is not providing any context for either of the quotes he is attempting to spin here. As he is quote mining.
Lets stick to the subject and let the evidence speak for itself, shall we?The Demand for Purity
1) douglas mallette is a lead technician for the zeitgeist movement. and YOU agreed with him that people needed to be "annihilated". You are the venus project official spokesperson, you said, "absolutely". The point is your group views yourself as seeking purity (organization seeking to feed children", and aggressors as "evil" and bad" that "deserve to die because they are worthless skin". This fits the demand for purity: "In the thought reform milieu, as in all situations of ideological totalism, the experiential world is sharply divided into the pure and the impure, into the absolutely good and the absolutely evil."
2) you are the official spokesman and you removed the whole murder dialog. more information control
3) VTV says "Your information about the UN is inaccurate" the issue at hand has nothing to do with the UN. It has to do with the "demand for purity". "The individual thus comes to apply the same totalist polarization of good and evil to his judgments of his own character: he tends to imbue certain aspects of himself with excessive virtue, and condemn even more excessively other personal qualities - all according to their ideological standing. He must also look upon his impurities as originating from outside influences - that is, from the ever-threatening world beyond the closed, totalist ken. Therefore, one of his best way to relieve himself of some of his burden of guilt is to denounce, continuously and hostilely, these same outside influences." I really dont care about the UN. Thats not why I posted that, it has to do with the violent nature of Venus Project "lead technician" member douglas mallette demonstrating how "EVIL" and "BAD" people who attack buildings need to die.
4) VTV says "Douglass has since apologized for his wording" Yeah, "wording", not beliefs. In his "apology" he takes the time to plug "attack preparation": [www.youtube.com
] (More fear tactics)VTV: I will let Doug speak for himself in that video that your attempting to spin. But Doug was very clear. We recognize that people may try to be violent even towards a peaceful group of people trying to implement this system, particularly if it was done during an economic/ecological collapse. You framed this as if Doug was trying to be a drill sergeant preparing people for war. Again extremely deceptive tactics. I notice you didn't post the entire video of Doug addressing that issue.
Yeah he was very clear. "Mentally prepare yourself for attacks". Anyways....
Understand it is this Good Vs Evil that I am talking about:
The Zeitgeist movement believes that everything in the world today is destructive, including families, laws, governments, currency, nations, cultures, states, languages, religions, god, the list goes on and on. Everything is destructive except for The Venus Project which is "perfection" and "heaven on earth". So they strive to painfully for the non existent "perfect" venus project and "heaven on earth" by spreading the name "zeitgeist" and the movies made by Peter Joseph to everybody they know (this is called "awareness").VTV: Ok, now we are getting into the realm of outright lying. In the Zeitgeist Orientation guide it actually talks about the benefits to families living in a Resource Based Economy and how much stronger the bonds will be when parents can actually spend a lot more time with their children in the economic model we suggest.
AM I LYING? Really?? Whats this then?? [www.youtube.com
] @about 1:25.
And after 4 minutes here he says there will be no families in Jacques future:
So clearly, you are trying to discredit me by saying im lying, instead just ask me for proof, which I can provide.Demand For Purity
Yes this a blend of perfection and sacred science, or what Peter calls "functional spirituality". [www.youtube.com
]VTV: And in the video he says "It's not perfect at all" and uses the word "hopefully". Are you just hoping people are not going to actually watch the video? He says it's the best science can offer us through using the scientific method. This is further proof of deceptive debate on your part.
Yeah he says a variance of perfection. Its in the video, check it out.
VTV, I really dont care if “trolls” made this video where Frescos says he wants to create "heaven on earth". If somebody wants to hear the whole interview they can ask me for a link in PM for the whole context. youtube=http://www.youtube.com/user/anon11allofus#p/u/6/2m3fP3hNt2o
It it further evidence of the seeking of "purity". "Thought reform bears witness to its more malignant consequences: for by defining and manipulating the criteria of purity, and then by conducting an all-out war upon impurity, the ideological totalists create a narrow world of guilt and shame. This is perpetuated by an ethos of continuous reform, a demand that one strive permanently and painfully for something which not only does not exist but is in fact alien to the human condition."-culteducation.comSacred Science
Peter Joseph says "science and technology is divinity in action" youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRtX7rYh5ag"Yet so strong a hold can the sacred science achieve over his mental processes that if one begins to feel himself attracted to ideas which either contradict or ignore it, he may become guilty and afraid. His quest for knowledge is consequently hampered, since in the name of science he is prevented from engaging in the receptive search for truth which characterizes the genuinely scientific approach. And his position is made more difficult by the absence, in a totalist environment, of any distinction between the sacred and the profane: there is no thought or action which cannot be related to the sacred science. To be sure, one can usually find areas of experience outside its immediate authority; but during periods of maximum totalist activity (like thought reform) any such areas are cut off, and there is virtually no escape from the milieu's ever-pressing edicts and demands. Whatever combination of continued adherence, inner resistance, or compromise co-existence the individual person adopts toward this blend of counterfeit science and back-door religion, it represents another continuous pressure toward personal closure, toward avoiding, rather than grappling with, the kinds of knowledge and experience necessary for genuine self-expression and for creative development" rick ross.comVTVs reponse: "The video speaks for itself. Your again really trying to stretch"
Yeah it does speak for itself, it says god is fake, jesus is fake, men are gods, and “science and technology is divinity in action”, “science is the tool for functional spirituality”. This is the core definition of sacred science. It is a element of cult criteria.
Peter Joseph says Christianity is a man made fraud and man is really god. "Mans creative ability is true divinity". youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYc7ZkloPIE&NR=1 For within the framework of the sacred science, and sweeping, non-rational "insights." Since the distinction between the logical and the mystical is, to begin with, artificial and man-made, an opportunity for transcending it can create an extremely intense feeling of truth. But the posture of unquestioning faith - both rationally and non-rationally derived - is not easy to sustain, especially if one discovers that the world of experience is not nearly as absolute as the sacred science claims it to be. culteducation.comVTV response: "because he is an atheist"
So what if he is a atheist? He is planting the seeds for his “sacred science”.3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.
Zeitgeist is seeking economic gain. I have already provided evidence of this. I realize alot of places sell things and it doesnt make them a cult. But when you combine the sales with the leader "worship" and the various examples of though control being used, well then the picture of a "cult" emerges.
IN CONCLUSION:VTV: "I have exposed several deceptive tactics used in this report. Repetition, spin, quote mining, taking things out of context, etc. The poster has a history of engaging in just that quite a bit. As you can see from the various exposures here he has a tendency to provide links for comments taken out of context, and will slip some outright falsehoods next to misquotes to try and lend credibility to his argument. This is not meant as a personal attack but to make the readers aware that this sort of thing is very common for him. It would be hard for someone who had not dealt with this from him to get the context of it and he is banking on that.
We are again dealing with a personality who has a personal grudge against the Zeitgeist Movement. And is hoping that you will label us a cult."
I have no personal grudge. I don’t need Rick Ross to label you a cult. In fact, based on the constant videos of your members, it is your movement who is in need of somebody to clear the cult tag. Here is a cache of audio/video demonstrating zeitgeist are trying to convince people they are not a cult: [zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com
The need for my repetition (if any) is because many of the criteria of cults intertwine. For example, the "demand for purity" includes elements of "thought control cliches" and "fear tactics". So naturally, I would need to repeat some things. If I was "spinning" data, i would not provide the links. If I provide the complete convos. it would be hard to identify where my examples take place so I include condensed versions. However, people can see if Im "spinning" when they go research the items in their full context, if they need I will supply via PM.
You are also going out of your way to discredit me. You say i have a track record of these discussions but in fact my evidence is valid and I can prove it. The last time we had a discussion, I exposed the motto for ZDAY (fresco's bday) as coming from a lucifer worshiping mason. Within minutes it was removed from the official website and we have not discussed since. Clearly, if i am bring invalid points, you would not have deleted the Zeitgeist Slogan from the page! [zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com
I am not trying to discredit you VTV, I am only demonstrating using direct statements and evidence from your group that shows much of the criteria of cults and mind control are reflective in your movement. Lets keep things civil and discuss the points, but please read why I am using this information. It is because the information fits within the context of:
#2 control (thought termination clichés/coercive persuasion using fear tactics, fear tactics, information control/demand for purity/sacred science/ deceptive recruitment)