Re: I want Eckhart Tolle out
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: November 05, 2010 01:01AM
Quote
Rather than feeling hyper-alert, I began to feel drowsy and dozy before half way through. Bit of an ordeal actually, three hours of that, with Eckhart just a small distant figure on the stage.
The (dare I say it?) boredom was compounded by the fact that of the 3 guru's surveyed, Eckhart had the least audience participation, that is to say, zero. None whatsoever! Swept onto the stage, sat, talked for just shy of 3 hours"Thank you thank you", down off the stage, quickly through the center aisle to the main door, flanked by nervous-looking attendants on all side, into a waiting semi-limo type car - whoosh he's OUTTA there.
(IF ET had it so well planned to just pop up on stage, and have attendants and a limo waiting for him to extract him -- he could have planned just as much to ensure the comfort of his audience by preventing the seat shortage-C)
Okay, there may be more stuff in here that others can spot.
I find it interesting that despite the boredom factor the author ended up impressed by Tolle yet earlier remarked
Quote
The effect lasted from that segment of his talk until next morning, but is now wearing away.
Re: I want Eckhart Tolle out
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: November 05, 2010 03:53AM
It's interesting that the author describes the Tolle 'satsang' as well as that of Gangaji and Byron Katie as a show. Tolle may not have the overt skills of showmanship that Byron Katie displays but I noticed a well known raconteurs trick (often taught to public speakers) of meandering off on tangents but returning several times to a basic point:
'Just kidding, of course he meant it to apply to all of us, and to any other frustration. I only mention it because he returned to this narrative about the ticket frustrations several times throughout the evening.'
There is an old British comedian/raconteur (Ronnie Corbett) who uses this technique brilliantly to hold the attention of and control his audience through some very mundane and commonplace observations--the audience is mesmerised even though the content is somewhat less than mesmerising.
[www.youtube.com]
(This is a short example clip, the longer skits show more marked loops returning to a single theme. Far from being random, these are very tightly scripted)
Having read up some on the 'nested loops' of NLP I see that technique as being a formalised version of this raconteurs trick. It even works in print, some of the most compellingly-written stories and novels utilise this device to draw the reader into the author's constructed reality.
I would also be wary of any 'suggestion' at the start of a 3 hour talk for which I had paid out $75, that I should expect to be bored and frustrated----I can do bored and frustrated at home for free, why not cut out the middle-man?
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2010 04:00AM by Stoic.
'Just kidding, of course he meant it to apply to all of us, and to any other frustration. I only mention it because he returned to this narrative about the ticket frustrations several times throughout the evening.'
There is an old British comedian/raconteur (Ronnie Corbett) who uses this technique brilliantly to hold the attention of and control his audience through some very mundane and commonplace observations--the audience is mesmerised even though the content is somewhat less than mesmerising.
[www.youtube.com]
(This is a short example clip, the longer skits show more marked loops returning to a single theme. Far from being random, these are very tightly scripted)
Having read up some on the 'nested loops' of NLP I see that technique as being a formalised version of this raconteurs trick. It even works in print, some of the most compellingly-written stories and novels utilise this device to draw the reader into the author's constructed reality.
I would also be wary of any 'suggestion' at the start of a 3 hour talk for which I had paid out $75, that I should expect to be bored and frustrated----I can do bored and frustrated at home for free, why not cut out the middle-man?
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2010 04:00AM by Stoic.
Re: I want Eckhart Tolle out
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: November 05, 2010 09:26AM
'.....showing exactly how our own egoic mind possesses us like a demon, uses us like donkeys, and basically laughs at us like fools for not seeing through all the stupid games.'
What was that term used in the FWBO article? Bi-polar mind control, splitting the mind into antagonistic parts and then seeing the whole as an endless battle for supremacy between those parts.
'It is just so easy to see (in other people at least), once you've read Eckhart's book'
And once you've taken on board the concepts that Tolle has pre-digested for you in his book:
'Or hey just stay home and read Tolle's own book (which delivers all his concepts in a far superior fashion than his talk last night, but I don't hold that against him, as I believe he correctly assumed that he was addressing an audience of those in-the- know, and already-on-board.)'
No need for the teacher to actually teach anything, he can just lead the audience around in circles, going nowhere for 3 hours. At least most raconteurs deliver an entertaining if aimless amble, Tolle just returns repeatedly to the boredom and frustration and dangles the E word like a carrot, forever out of reach. Gotta get his next book and CD, I must be missing something vital.
Maybe it is Tolle who possesses the minds of the audience 'like a demon, uses us like donkeys, and basically laughs at us like fools for not seeing through all the stupid games.' by planting these ideas in their heads in the first place.
One of the reasons this raconteur trick is so compelling is that it mimics one particular common pattern of thought that most people are familiar with, consciously or not, when not actively engaged in goal-directed thought.
Freudians call it 'free association', I call it 'following my nose' as it reminds me of how dogs behave when they are let off the leash, following one scent until another scent takes the attention then following that one. The dog has no idea of where the scent is leading him, the joy is in the hunt.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2010 09:26AM by Stoic.
What was that term used in the FWBO article? Bi-polar mind control, splitting the mind into antagonistic parts and then seeing the whole as an endless battle for supremacy between those parts.
'It is just so easy to see (in other people at least), once you've read Eckhart's book'
And once you've taken on board the concepts that Tolle has pre-digested for you in his book:
'Or hey just stay home and read Tolle's own book (which delivers all his concepts in a far superior fashion than his talk last night, but I don't hold that against him, as I believe he correctly assumed that he was addressing an audience of those in-the- know, and already-on-board.)'
No need for the teacher to actually teach anything, he can just lead the audience around in circles, going nowhere for 3 hours. At least most raconteurs deliver an entertaining if aimless amble, Tolle just returns repeatedly to the boredom and frustration and dangles the E word like a carrot, forever out of reach. Gotta get his next book and CD, I must be missing something vital.
Maybe it is Tolle who possesses the minds of the audience 'like a demon, uses us like donkeys, and basically laughs at us like fools for not seeing through all the stupid games.' by planting these ideas in their heads in the first place.
One of the reasons this raconteur trick is so compelling is that it mimics one particular common pattern of thought that most people are familiar with, consciously or not, when not actively engaged in goal-directed thought.
Freudians call it 'free association', I call it 'following my nose' as it reminds me of how dogs behave when they are let off the leash, following one scent until another scent takes the attention then following that one. The dog has no idea of where the scent is leading him, the joy is in the hunt.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2010 09:26AM by Stoic.
Re: I want Eckhart Tolle out
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: November 05, 2010 11:08PM
Anticult discussed nested look method here.
It is my citizens opinion that--
The best thing to do is learn about nested loop story telling trance induction only to protect your agency from undue influence. Know this technique is out there, being used against us, but dont use it yourself.
First, it is dehumanizing to treat any person as an object and you will slowly, without realizing it turn into a decayed and corrupted entity. This method was intended only for ethical and healing use by professionals who swore oaths of moral accountablity and who make themselves legally accountable for their actions by carrying liability insurance and by being licensed to practice. They only use these methods after assessing your special needs as a person. They dont treat you as a mass crowd to be milked for money and power.
Two, if a person over uses methods of covert social influence just to get what he or she wants and to avoid the stress and strain of open handed persuasion and negotiation, an operator using potent methods of trance induction will stay immature, not having any incentive to learn social graces, negotiating skills and basic patience and respect for others.
A person who may have some social skills may get rusty if he or she grows dependent on the easy quick outcomes of covertly influencing people to cave in rapidly and agree. Over time the operator gets addicted to the technique and has to use it more and more often and grows corrupt. Keeping these skills a secret from those influenced makes real adult intimacy impossible.
In the worst case, a person may try to justify his or her abuses of this methodology and then all bets are off.
[forum.culteducation.com]
It is my citizens opinion that--
The best thing to do is learn about nested loop story telling trance induction only to protect your agency from undue influence. Know this technique is out there, being used against us, but dont use it yourself.
First, it is dehumanizing to treat any person as an object and you will slowly, without realizing it turn into a decayed and corrupted entity. This method was intended only for ethical and healing use by professionals who swore oaths of moral accountablity and who make themselves legally accountable for their actions by carrying liability insurance and by being licensed to practice. They only use these methods after assessing your special needs as a person. They dont treat you as a mass crowd to be milked for money and power.
Two, if a person over uses methods of covert social influence just to get what he or she wants and to avoid the stress and strain of open handed persuasion and negotiation, an operator using potent methods of trance induction will stay immature, not having any incentive to learn social graces, negotiating skills and basic patience and respect for others.
A person who may have some social skills may get rusty if he or she grows dependent on the easy quick outcomes of covertly influencing people to cave in rapidly and agree. Over time the operator gets addicted to the technique and has to use it more and more often and grows corrupt. Keeping these skills a secret from those influenced makes real adult intimacy impossible.
In the worst case, a person may try to justify his or her abuses of this methodology and then all bets are off.
[forum.culteducation.com]
Quote
recently read some info about what are called "Nested Loops", which are used in this type of hypnosis that was coined by Richard Bandler and relates to the hypnotherapy of Milton Erickson.
Byron Katie uses these techniques as well.
These are basically stories within stories, sometimes 5 stories at once, that can set up a symbol/metaphor system, and in the confusion they create, serve also implant suggestions in the later stories, also some stories are left open and resolved at a later date. It becomes very sophisticated.
(this hypnotist guy tries to explain hypnotic Nested Loops a bit, while doing it to you)
[www.earthlingcommunication.com]
For example, the Byron Katie "story" about 'doing the laundry with a washing machine in Amsterdam' is along these lines. Its has multiple layers of meaning and ambiguity built right into it, and follows on the heels of various other stories she was telling at the same time on that CD.
Here is that Story, and analysis of it follows.
Byron Katie "doing the laundry"
[forum.culteducation.com]
Katie also uses language in a similar way. For example, as mentioned above, she is encouraging (INVITING) her people to listen to her audio program she calls a Mental Cleanse, every night as they go to sleep.
Mental Cleanse =
Mental Wash =
Mind Wash.
She is using those terms as they are so powerful, and they are recognized by people's unconscious. She is very blatant about it, when you take a look at it.
She also encourages people to use repetition, as that is needed as well, and to listen to her Mind Washing (Mental Cleanse) every night as they fall asleep, as that is when most people go into a natural trance state where there are most suggestible.
Its too bad more folks who are getting into this New Age spirituality stuff don't take a look under the hood of the nests of Stories they are being sold.
(here is an old post about Byron Katie the hypnotic Sorcerer)
[forum.culteducation.com]
Note: even if one uses trance to self soothe and never uses it to influence others or to close a sale more rapidly, consider this:
It is a basic human skill, a skill one has to learn over many years, to be able to tolerate, bear, hold and contain emotions especially painful emotions, without going to the extremes of depression or violent agression toward others.
In gradual steps, starting in childhood when learning to sleep and awaken on schedule, and to calm oneself, one must learn natural ways to calm oneself from within that do not require trance induction, either self induced, or application of trance by an operator outside oneself.
Otherwise, there is a risk that a person who can only self soothe through trance induction may become dependent on such methods--and on operators who apply such methods.
Please notice that if anyone inflicts TMI (too much information) on you--Get Away.
Note: Long before Erickson fine tuned this method for ethical medical hypnosis, hustlers would use the confusion inducing method of bombing people with too much information
Re: I want Eckhart Tolle out
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: November 06, 2010 12:11AM
Quote
Eckhart Tolle: Old Ideas From a New Earth Guru
by Alexander Green, Chairman, Investment U
Investment Director, The Oxford Club
Friday, May 16, 2008: Issue #796
Unless you’ve been living on Mars lately, you’ve probably heard about the “New Earth” phenomenon.
“A New Earth” is the New York Times #1 Bestseller getting a serious push from media mogul Oprah Winfrey lately. The book has sold more than 3.5 million copies since she first mentioned it on her television show in late January. Barnes & Noble reports that it is flying off the shelves faster than all 61 other books Oprah’s Book Club has selected since 1996.
Written by contemporary spiritual teacher Eckhart Tolle, the book showsQuote
“how transcending our ego-based state of consciousness is not only essential to personal happiness, but also the key to ending conflict and suffering throughout the world.”
I’ve read the book and can tell you that most of it is quite good. But parts of it are abysmal. Specifically, the brief passages about business and investing. Here are just a couple of examples…
Eckhart Tolle Sees Corporations as Egoic Entities
Tolle says huge corporationsQuote
“are egoic entities that compete with each other for more. Their only blind aim is profit. They pursue that aim with absolute ruthlessness. Nature, animals, people, even their own employees, are nothing more than digits on a balance sheet, lifeless objects to be used, then discarded.”
Eckhart Tolle sees things quite differently. “Quote
Let’s say you are a businessperson and after two years of intense stress and strain you finally manage to come out with a product or service that sells well and makes money. Success? In conventional terms, yes. In reality, you spent two years polluting your body as well as the earth with negative energy, made yourself and those around you miserable, and affected many others you never even met.”
(excerpts from a longer article)
[www.newfrontiertrader.com]
Tolle, is whacking at his strawman successful businessman/person saying ...you spent two years polluting your body as well as the earth with negative energy, made yourself and those around you miserable, and affectedmany others you never even met."
This is a vigorous indictment, a tongue lashing, coming from a fellow who is repeated described as quiet, gentle and mild when giving public talks.
. Psisurvivor is someone whom Tolle never met in his career as a businessman--but who has been affected by his career as a businessman.
But she found herself feeling pressure at work from a supervisor who became enthralled with Tolle material and was giving out Tolle quotation cards at work. PSIsurvivor had visited a Tolle group some time earlier, and didnt lot like what she saw. She had also gotten out of an earlier high demand group and was especially unwilling to run the slightest risk of facing a repeat.
Again PSI is one whom Tolle has, in his own business career, never met.
Quote
About a year ago when I was still struggling with my PSI Seminars involvment another PSI person suggested reading Eckhart Tolle's book.
I read the book a couple of times and bought the tapes as well. I listened to them several times. I found a local group that the leader of claimed to be not only enlightened, but that ET himself had ackknoweleged her enlightenment. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Sitting with that group was a strange experience. The leader appeared to be stoned on valium or something. She had a very strange slow way of talking as if it was difficult for her. The house was richly decorated and in an affluent area of town. She obviously had money. They did ask for donations as well. When I walked by the basket and did not put any money in i noticed that the woman next to me gave me a strange look. I imagined that she felt sorry for me. It seemed like a pity look hmmm. what ever. After a while of silent sitting the leader picked a man out of the group and said something like "i've seen you here a few times. Come up here and sit with me. Then she started asking him questions like who is it sitting here with me? To make a long story short all of his answers just got him another question. He was sobbing in her lap within 10 minutes. I felt very uncomfortable and never went back.
After a long time of pondering ET I conclude that he is just another creep who plays the guru game for cash. I want nothing to do with him or his groups or his writing. I feel lucky that I could see the manipulation, greed, and lust for power. I find it most unappealing.
The problem is my new boss and a few of my co-workers have gotten into the ET craze. My boss actually brought a deck of cards with ET sayings on them to the last work meeting and passed them out to everyone. She instructed us to read them aloud and then to reflect on them. It really creeped me out.
I need to confront her about it before the next work meeting, because it just is not okay with me that religion is pushed by the boss at work.
It is amazing to me to talk to the people who like ET. They seem to read the book and swallow it whole. Doesn't anybody think about what they read? I mean really it's crazy shit that he writes and I see people suck it up like gospel truth. ugh
[forum.culteducation.com]
Re: I want Eckhart Tolle out
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: November 06, 2010 12:22AM
Quote
say you are a businessperson and after two years of intense stress and strain you finally manage to come out with a product or service that sells well and makes money. Success? In conventional terms, yes. In reality, you spent two years polluting your body as well as the earth with negative energy, made yourself and those around you miserable, and affected many others you never even met
Have to wonder.
Is this a general boilerplate?
Or is it meant to trigger guilt? A lot of people have gone into business, especially after being laid off from work, or after having been burned by corporations who kicked them out or laid them off.
Some are stay at home parents who have to find creative ways to generate income and some are remarkably successful.
But there is a chronic free floating guilt felt by many persons, whether employees or entreprenuers because they are away from home, worried about finding time to care for marriages and children, and this free floating guilt is not a personal fault,but is caused by an American culture that does not support the actual needs of families, and two this guilt is massaged ruthlessly by advertisements designed to massage peoples areas of suffering to sell them more stuff.
And along comes Tolle to dig it in and make already stressed out people feel worse about themselves.
There are sure to be a few people in his audience who already feel this way without needing their already aching souls kicked harder.
And for a fellow who is himself a businessman to talk as though he is offering an emancipatory alternative to the rat race, while permitting rat race conditions to develop around scarce seating at the event described above by an attendee--that's not a nice thing to do..and not a nice way to be, whether as a guru or businessman---or both.
Be nice to your employees and give your devotees good customer service, such as hassle free seating arrangements and parking arrangements in return for their money, especially if its 3 hours for $75.
And...its not just the 75 bucks. Its the time taken to possibly budget a babysitter, if one has kids, perhaps eat at a nearby restaurant, unless you are old fashioned and brown bag your lunch. And one may have to pay for parking and then after going home, struggle to find a parking space, unless you are lucky and live in a garaged building or a quiet 'hood with easy parking spaces.
Be nice to the people who enrich you--make sure they get seats and dont get em anxious in line while waiting for your enlightened bum to show up and assume its
position onstage.
Re: I want Eckhart Tolle out
Posted by:
Calm
()
Date: November 11, 2010 08:49AM
Hi everyone. I have been thinking lately and I don't honestly know if this apathy state is normal for me. In someways I believe I have always been like this. I mean recently my Grandfather died but I didn't feel sad at all I wanted to because he was a nice man and he did a lot for me and my family. I was at his furneral and I couldn't feel much at all. My Grandmother also died the previous year and I felt hardly anything as well. What was worse is I found it tough to fake being sad because I just can't feel it like others could. A few years ago now my sister who was seperated from me through adoption I discovered had a terrible childhood (I won't go into the details). I was shocked but wasn't really upset over it compared to my parents who cried about it. I have been told I have Autistic tendencies numerous times, I have to admit most of my life I have had a hard time feeling empathy and "feeling" another persons pain or loss. As well as often feeling "out of sync" socially and emotionally with people. I am pretty sure I am not a sociopath despite feeling indifferent because I don't manipulate others, I don't really like lying to people and never felt like I wanted to cheat on someone, screw them over etc for my own gain. I have considered a Hormone imbalance but I don't have a lot of the traits, my thinking seems normal but I can't understand the extreme emotional dullness and blank void all the time. Anyway I know like the moderator said I need to see a doctor or something but I just wanted to share my thoughts.
Thanks
Thanks
Re: I want Eckhart Tolle out
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: November 11, 2010 10:15AM
Calm:
The subject of this thread is Eckhart Tolle.
Please stay on topic.
If you have personal problems perhaps you should talk to your family, friends, clergy person, doctor or a professional licensed counselor about it.
The subject of this thread is Eckhart Tolle.
Please stay on topic.
If you have personal problems perhaps you should talk to your family, friends, clergy person, doctor or a professional licensed counselor about it.
Re: I want Eckhart Tolle out
Posted by:
Tiredofthis
()
Date: November 17, 2010 07:49AM
Corboy, i'm in dire need of exit counseeling.. and maybe some other stuff on top of that.. It's tough being a student and dealing with this bullshit. Not only that but i saw something really graphic online a ages ago and my brain can't get over it. It goes back and forth bothering me and distracting my attention. It's hard as hell to focus what's left of my mind to get work done within a reasonable amount of time because of this, especially with the floating and the feeling like i'm always being judged by Tolle. I feel i'm slowed down all the time when i try to do work and with each outburst of frustration on my part, he just keeps justifying himself in my mind, like that this and each present moment has been predestined and there's nothing i can ever do, like i have no control anymore ever since i've parted ways with my thinking.
You said that i can find a list of suggested counsellors under "getting help" right? I looked on that page and i didn't find any information there: where is it specifically?
Thanks a lot.
You said that i can find a list of suggested counsellors under "getting help" right? I looked on that page and i didn't find any information there: where is it specifically?
Thanks a lot.
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