I see Skolnick as a vulnerable person. Even when I was up to my eyes in Byron Katie, something about Skolnick's website just didn't seem right at all. I noticed the way she holds her hand across her chin in her photo, a striking imitation of Byron Katie from the cover of the book I had. It's like trying to be someone else. That's what 'the work' is, if you take it too far. I think questioning your own thoughts and turning them around can be useful. When depressed, for example, if someone is giving themselves a hard time, they might might be able to say Is it true? etc, and lift themselves up a bit. Something about 'the work' definitely works, that's why people are flocking to it.

But it doesn't have to be about Byron Katie. Self-enquiry has been around for thousands of years. Byron Katie has anchored herself at the heart of thousands of peoples' minds in a way that seems to involve elements of trance, and continual repetition of brand name and image. I see manipulation, I see denial of responsibilty, and I see a form of greed. I see arrogance in the belief of having 'found' an infallible system, and I see vulnerable people spending thousands of pounds pursuing an image of bliss.

Quote
Joel
Yeah. I think this thread has been very useful for me. I don't think that Carol Skolnick is deliberately embedding hypnotic suggestions into her text, though: I wouldn't go that far. I think she might be putting herself into a form of trance by doing 'the work' on a frequent basis, and projecting the need to do that out onto others, and, of course, having her own deep-seated to make a living in this world.

Quote
Joel
I see Skolnick as a vulnerable person. Even when I was up to my eyes in Byron Katie, something about Skolnick's website just didn't seem right at all. I noticed the way she holds her hand across her chin in her photo, a striking imitation of Byron Katie from the cover of the book I had. It's like trying to be someone else. That's what 'the work' is, if you take it too far. I think questioning your own thoughts and turning them around can be useful. When depressed, for example, if someone is giving themselves a hard time, they might might be able to say Is it true? etc, and lift themselves up a bit. Something about 'the work' definitely works, that's why people are flocking to it.

But it doesn't have to be about Byron Katie. Self-enquiry has been around for thousands of years. Byron Katie has anchored herself at the heart of thousands of peoples' minds in a way that seems to involve elements of trance, and continual repetition of brand name and image. I see manipulation, I see denial of responsibilty, and I see a form of greed. I see arrogance in the belief of having 'found' an infallible system, and I see vulnerable people spending thousands of pounds pursuing an image of bliss.

Joel, I love (yes, love) what you say about both Carol Skolnick and Byron Katie. I think you've hit the nail on the head. I am very inclined to believe that Carol Skolnick is sincere. Unfortunately, she's all but dedicated her life to TW, so I think it would be massively unsettling were she to question the wholesomeness of TW overall and consider other possibilities.

I also do think Carol Skolnick is totally sincere in her propagation of Byron Katie.

But I looked at quite a bit of Carol's writing in the past, and I found it to be highly deliberately constructed. My guess was that she also picked up a lot of persuasion techniques previously from her deep involvement with Siddha-Yoga.
I see Skolnick as being a public softener of what Byron Katie does, part of the bait-and-switch. Carol knows that there are tons of problems at BKI, and that the doctrines of Byron Katie change as you get deeper into it, going to seminars, etc.
But possibly from the Siddha-Yoga years, she learned the way you communicate with the public and the way you communicate to insiders is different. You also cover-up misdeeds and problems.

Granted, she probably does think "its for their own good". I am not saying Skolnick is a bad person, but she is promoting damaging and deceptive material.
Also, I have seen her respond to critics in a way that is evasive at best, and manipulative at worst.

But that is to be expected with people who are involved full-time in doing the Byron Katie Work for a living! That is paying their bills, so they are obviously not going to damage that. There are many other making a lot of money off the Byron Katie Work, and they are in a different league, in my view, from the folks who buy the books, and go to the seminars. Those who MAKE MONEY from these things are different from those who are spending their money.

I know my criticism is quite harsh, but the BK enterprise is extremely deceptive.
Self-exploration is wonderful, hypnosis is terrific, but it has to be done ethicially and openly.
I just read the 2 new Richard Bandler books about this type of hypnosis, and even Bandler is 100x more ethical that Byron Katie and her crew. Make no mistake that Byron Katie has been taught NLP-hypnosis and adapted it in her own way, from contacts with Stever Robbins.

Byron Katie is talking now about losing "your story". She knows, and her husband knows, that these stories are how the human mind encodes belief and self-identity. That is powerful stuff.
Every religion on earth falls into this category, by the way. (Katie would not say..."who would you be without your religious beliefs"...as that would hurt sales...)
So Byron Katie is using all these techniques and then modifying people's core mental structures, for HER own benefit and uses.

Why not teach them to modify their own beliefs as they see fit?
Then she doesn't get that level of control, power, or worship.

Personally, I see Carol Skolnick as a salesperson and even propagandist for The Work, and she is good at it. She might be making a lot of money at it.
(also notice all the BK folks pretend they are Mother Theresa and doing it for free, when in reality BK is making millions a month at this point).
But I do see the technique being used by Skolnick, so my view is she is doing it quite carefully. She may tell herself that she is doing it "for their own good, to get their mind out of the way", or whatever. She also has very distorted beliefs...I do recall her essay along the lines of "love is a murderer" or some such distorted belief.

All I can say is misusing these powerful techniques on vulnerable people for personal gain, is not right.
But hey, when one peels back the Byron Katie facade, she makes it very clear that "ethics" for her do not even exist, neither does "truth or lies", or pretty much anything else. This is why she can lie whenever she wants...she literally believes if she says it then its true. Literally.

Byron Katie literally has said in print, that the Nazi's who murdered babies by burning them alive were doing the work of her concept of "God". So once you get to that level of absurdity, anything goes.
So perhaps folks like Skolnick have deeply internalized these sorts of pathological core beliefs from Byron Katie. Once a person gets totally immersed into the Byron Katie system, there is no such thing as "lying" anymore, as facts don't exist.

Or at least that is what Byron Katie teaches. Who knows what Byron Katie really thinks when she looks in the mirror...maybe
...I am God...or....there's one born every minute....or...I am the sorcerer...(she has said 2 of those in books she has since taken off the market and disappeared).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2008 02:27AM by The Anticult.

Yes, Carol Skolnick is very good at propagating The Work.

In the "About Carol" section of her website, she says that prior to being involved with the work, she was "a high school English teacher, an award-winning copywriter, a Reiki practitioner, a creative marketing consultant, and an occasional performer of standup comedy."

This would be someone quite used to persuading people on a number of levels.

yeah, Carol is really an accomplished salesperson and marketer. I do recall earlier in the thread dissecting some writings of hers that were using various techniques..

But the word SORCERER seems to be the ideal word for Byron Katie. She calls herself a sorcerer in a CD of hers. Byron Katie is a Master Sorcerer, literally.

[forum.culteducation.com]
THE MASTER: The Master is always a She = Katie, MASTER MOVES IN (to your Mind).
- She says “others” call her, Saint, Master, Buddha, Enlightened, Magician, SORCERER (she uses that word, that might be the best word of all).

recently read some info about what are called "Nested Loops", which are used in this type of hypnosis that was coined by Richard Bandler and relates to the hypnotherapy of Milton Erickson.
Byron Katie uses these techniques as well.

These are basically stories within stories, sometimes 5 stories at once, that can set up a symbol/metaphor system, and in the confusion they create, serve also implant suggestions in the later stories, also some stories are left open and resolved at a later date. It becomes very sophisticated.

(this hypnotist guy tries to explain hypnotic Nested Loops a bit, while doing it to you)
[www.earthlingcommunication.com]

For example, the Byron Katie "story" about 'doing the laundry with a washing machine in Amsterdam' is along these lines. Its has multiple layers of meaning and ambiguity built right into it, and follows on the heels of various other stories she was telling at the same time on that CD.
Here is that Story, and analysis of it follows.

Byron Katie "doing the laundry"
[forum.culteducation.com]

Katie also uses language in a similar way. For example, as mentioned above, she is encouraging (INVITING) her people to listen to her audio program she calls a Mental Cleanse, every night as they go to sleep.

Mental Cleanse =
Mental Wash =
Mind Wash.

She is using those terms as they are so powerful, and they are recognized by people's unconscious. She is very blatant about it, when you take a look at it.
She also encourages people to use repetition, as that is needed as well, and to listen to her Mind Washing (Mental Cleanse) every night as they fall asleep, as that is when most people go into a natural trance state where there are most suggestible.

Its too bad more folks who are getting into this New Age spirituality stuff don't take a look under the hood of the nests of Stories they are being sold.

(here is an old post about Byron Katie the hypnotic Sorcerer).
[forum.culteducation.com]

happened to read a book of Bruce Lee writings called The Tao Of Gung Fu.
Its a collection of some of his writings from when he was in his early 20's. about Tao Te Ching, Yin/Yang, Nondoing, No-Mind, Oneness, as well as diagrams on how to kick people's asses.

Eckhart Tolle and Byron Katie also have tried to use some of that same TAO material in their products.
But here you have a kid in his early 20's, Bruce Lee, who's random notes are 100x better on these subjects that these other two clowns. He was just trying to honestly communicate, and it comes through. Its good stuff in so-called Non-Duality, or Oneness, or Ying/Yang, etc. (he actually explaine dthe yin/yang idea in a way that makes sense).
So there is decent stuff out there all over the place.

But Byron Katie's horror of a book on the Tao Te Ching is a vile perversion, and Eckhart Tolle is just a confused salesman and poseur. They don't know what they are talking about, on top of all the salesmanship, hypnosis, lies, and everything else.
Just on the philosophical side of it, Byron Katie and Eckhart Tolle have really perverted those ideas into a vile doctrine.

It just is so obvious when you read something simple and pure from a guy like the unfamous young Bruce Lee, who was trying to live some of those ideas, and understood them from his Chinese culture.

Wow, I've got to read that book. My library has a bunch of copies on order, I'm reserving a copy now.

Thanks AC!

well, I don't mean to over-hype that book, its more for Bruce Lee fans, just some of his notebooks from years gone by, for those who are into that kinda thing.
But it also has some info on Gung Fu masters who are PHONIES on page 166-167, which applies to all this stuff. There are the fake "masters" who claim hidden powers just to make money from students, and lure them in, etc. Bruce Lee despised these people.(in a non-attached way, of course!)

He also slams the fake "supernatural" claims being made by these phonies on page 177.

I guess I just wanted to make the point that valid eastern philosophy is great. Its just that Eckhart Tolle and Byron Katie are bastardizing all of it, and wrecking it, and just using it to dupe westerners.
They lure people in with a fake passive "ying" sounding pitch, and then they hammer you with the "yang" of their trick LGAT contracts while you are getting hypnotized.
In the words of Bruce Lee they are complete PHONIES.
It really is vile what they are doing to people, trying to disconnect them from reality and common sense.
That is the complete opposite of what most of those classical eastern teachings were really about, as they were trying to adjust people more accurately to life, reality and practical philosophical "truth".

Eckhart Tolle and Byron Katie are literally doing the opposite by installing delusions, for profit of course. They should have worked on Wall St.


Google books has a preview, search these words
"The Tao Of Gung Fu" phonies
[books.google.com]

There are some essays online too.
[web.ukonline.co.uk]
The Tao Of Gung Fu : A Study In The Way Of The Chinese Martial Art
(Handwritten essay by Bruce Lee dated May 16, 1962.)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2008 07:07AM by The Anticult.

one more post on this, the Conclusion from the book, Bruce Lee talking about how to select a teacher. It applies 100% not only to a martial arts teacher, but any alleged Zen master, or spiritual guru of any stripe. It would apply to a therapist too!
Notice how he rejects "magical powers" and expects people to PROVE their claims point blank.
Also, I take note of how he notices how western tricksters use the faux oriental humility to hide behind. That is Eckhart Tolle in spades.



[realfighting.it]
"Selecting a Teacher and a Method in Martial Arts - Bruce Lee"

I sincerely give this advice to all readers who are about to take up martial arts --- believe only half of what you see and definitely nothing what you hear. Before you take any lessons from any instructor, find out clearly from him what his method is and request him politely to demonstrate to you how some techniques operate. Use your coomon sense and if he convinces you, then by all means go ahead.
How does one judge if an instructor is good? Rather, this question should be rephrased to "how can on judge if a method or system is good?" After all, one cannot learn the speed or power of an instructor but his skill. Thus, the soundness of the system, and not the instructor, is to be considered; the instructor is merely there to point the way and lead his disciples to an awareness that he himself is the one and only to give true feeling and expression to the system. The system should not be mechanical and complicated but simply simple with no "magical power". The method (which is ultimately no method) is there to remind one when he has done enough. The techniques have no magical power and are nothing special; they are merely the simplicity of profound common sense.
Do not, however, be impressed by instructors who have brick-breaking hands, invincible stomachs, iron forearms, or even speed for that matter. Remember you cannot learn his ability, but his skill. At any rate, ability to break stones, to take a punch in the body, to jump so many feet of the ground, are but stunts in the Chinese art of Gung Fu. Of primary importance are not the techniques. Breaking a brick and punching a human being are two different things: a brick does not give, whereas when being hit, a human being spins, falls, etc.., thus dissolving the power of the blow. What is the use if one has no technique to bring home his so-called "killing stroke"? On top of that, bricks and stones do not move and fight back. Thus, the system should be the thing considered and, as mentioned before, a system should not be mechanical, intricate and fancifull, but simply simple.
What if the "master" does not wish to show you his style? What if he is "too humble" and firmly guards his "deadly" secret? One thing I hope the readers should realize regarding Oriental humility and secrecy is that although it is true that highly qualified teachers do not boast and sometimes do not teach Gung Fu to just any body, the fact remains that they are only human beings and certainly they have not spent 10, 20 or 30 years on an art in order to say nothing about it. Even Lao-Tzu, the author of Tao Te Ching, and the man who wrote "He who knows, does not speak; he who speaks, does not know", wrote 5000 words to explain his doctrine.
In order to pass for more than their ability, the honorable masters, professors and experts (in America, especially) say little. They certainly have mastered the Oriental highest way of humility and secrecy, for it is definitely easier to look wise than to talk wisely (to act wise is, of course, even more difficult). The more one wants to pass at a value above his worth, the more he will keep his mouth shut. For once he talks (or moves), people can certainly classify him accordingly.
The unknown is always wonderful and the "15th degree red belt holders", the experts from super advanced schools, and the "honorable masters" know how to gather around them a mysterious veil of secrecy. There is a Chinese saying that applies to these people: "Silence is the ornament and safeguard of the ignorant".


From the "Tao of Gung Fu" by Bruce Lee 1967