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Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 27, 2009 09:43AM

all of this stuff about ENDING SUFFERING, comes from a very specific source in these new age marketers.
There was a time a while back, when people figured out that all sales, and that means ALL sales, is about moving away from PAIN and moving into PLEASURE.
Of course that comes from Behaviorism, but was later applied to human sales psychology.

These guys have all picked up on that, from other sources, and they blindy market the END TO SUFFERING, which is saying an END to PAIN.
What sane person is going to believe they can end all their pain? Its impossible.

The top psychologists and therapies today, that have been tested in real studies, have shown to reduce extreme suffering in most cases. To claim they could end suffering is criminal.
The best therapies may reduce it for most people. Not end it.

Now, these guys are marketing untested and damaging methods they picked up from other people.
People devised methods to INCREASE suffering, that is a fact.
Who did that? Salespeople who market LGAT's.
They found if people were TOO COMFORTABLE, they would not buy and spend.
So they had to find their PAIN, and then INCREASE the pain to the maximum, THEN they sell a "solution" to the pain for a large amount of money, and people will then pay it.

That is not made up, that is a fact. The actual training manuals on exactly how to do this could be posted here, and I bet they are on the internet.

By the way, that is what Byron Katie does.
She finds the clients PAIN, and then increases the pain until people can't stand it, and then promises relief from pain, and that cycles.
But she is not the only one, all of the LGAT's do it. Especially Landmark.

This guy in this thread a freaking nightmare on wheels.
The sad reality is there are hundreds, even thousands like him out there. All using 5th generation techniques on people, which they often don't understand totally, all they know is it makes money.

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Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 27, 2009 09:50AM

search google for these three words.

sales pain pleasure


there are tons of articles everywhere. On top of that, they layer all kinds of other stuff into that.
But the basic Pain/Pleasure thing is standard.
Remove the pain = ending suffering.
selling pleasure = enlightenment.

Its a scam, an outright, blatant salestrick.
but it works, people buy into it.

Even lottery companies use the same method in their TV commercials.

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Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: March 27, 2009 10:12AM

Quote
The Anticult
This guy in this thread a freaking nightmare on wheels.
The sad reality is there are hundreds, even thousands like him out there. All using 5th generation techniques on people, which they often don't understand totally, all they know is it makes money.
This is why I am so glad I had that AHA moment reading what you said about Tony Parsons the other day, and now I want to do all I can to get the word out about these nonduality folks, because I am sure there are MANY people buying into their crap.

Wayne Liquorman referred to "suicides" plural and I wonder if Charlie might have pushed anyone over the edge as well.

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Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 27, 2009 01:37PM

its just too bad that more people can't seem to step back, and seperate out the "philosophy" from the "sales" techniques.

The philosophy of Oneness, or Advaita, Monism, or other so-called "eastern" philosophies are one thing.
For example, some of them appear to be a form of pantheism, or variants. (all in all, etc)
Also, ideas about the unbroken wholesness, and the rest of it.
No harm in exploring various ideas, that's healthy.

but the reality is that all of that speculative philosophy needs to be seperated out of the bogus "coaching" and enlightenment BS. And then getting lured into seminars, DVD's, meetings, and the rest of it.

But if they didn't sell the bogus 'escape from all suffering', people won't spend thousands of dollars on it.

So I agree, the Advaita type ideas, in many if not almost all cases, are being used as a front for LGAT semainr and coaching systems, that come from Werner Erhard, etc, meant to liberate your bank account.

It must be that since conventional "religion" has collapsed for so many people, they have a void, and these guys/gals are moving into that void?

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Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: March 27, 2009 08:55PM

Quote
The Anticult
But if they didn't sell the bogus 'escape from all suffering', people won't spend thousands of dollars on it.
I was in group therapy the other day and this guy talked about being very anxious about something. Said that he had been so anxious, he thought about having a drink. Apparently he was in AA, because then he said, "Maybe if I was working my program harder, I wouldn't be feeling this way."

Fortunately in this therapy group we are encouraged to dialogue with each other. As soon as the guy paused, I asked him, did he really think that he would ever be able to erase his human emotions? And then I spoke of my own experiences with using spirituality to try and do just that. He seemed very relieved and thanked me more than once.

I have RR's message boards to thank for being able to see this sort of thing now, both in myself and others.

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Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by: quackdave ()
Date: March 28, 2009 12:42AM

On the advice of a friend, years ago, I picked up a copy of I Am That, by/with Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj. It seemed logical to me at the time, that suffering could be attenuated by getting further 'behind my own eyes', so to speak. This man's point of view (if accurately described in the literature) seemed to be along those lines. So, I continued to read, search and Google about Advaita and all things connected. Strangely, my search took a turn to a website by Steven Sashen, who has a link to The Work, which led me to Byron Katie. The rest, as they say, is History. Thank goodness (actually this forum) for helping me take my first steps OFF the "path" that I was on. I'm convinced now, that even as a small child being indoctrinated by evangelical nut-bars, I was getting force-fed a steady diet of the doctrine that one can eliminate human suffering. Too bad I didn't get into Buddah sooner (just kidding), or at least listen when he said 'Life is Suffering'. I could have saved much time and money. As it is now, my suffering is far less when I am engaged in discussions like this, and doing everything I can NOT to have anything to do with any of these pursuits and people who are selling them. What a surprising and welcome paradox!

qd

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Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Nisargadatta, Ramana Maharshi
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: March 28, 2009 02:10AM

Quote
quackdave
On the advice of a friend, years ago, I picked up a copy of I Am That, by/with Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj.
Hi qd,

I still have a copy of "I Am That" but I never read the whole thing. I'd get only so far with it and then feel like my head was gonna explode!

I did really like some of the things said in it. However, I found that at times Nisargadatta completely contradicted himself.

Come to think of it, I found the same thing happening when I read books about Ramana Maharshi. He supposedly said one thing and then pages later, he'd say something very different. Or so it got translated.

Actually in psychology, such contradiction is known as "cognitive dissonance". In my experience, it's a very uncomfortable, disorienting state. Which could get exploited by a teacher. Perhaps even a genuine teacher.

The other day I had the thought.... how do I really know that Ramana Maharshi and/or Nisargadatta were really "enlightened"? Like, what if they were mentally ill?

This was actually very liberating, to dare and think such a thing. Why have I put so much trust in these people?

(The answer to that question is probably complex and I won't attempt to answer it here.)

Thanks for reminding me about "I Am That". Maybe I will take a look through it and try to find some of the contradictions.

(Although I have to allow that I may not do that. If I find that I am getting thrown off balance at all, then I'll stop reading it.)

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Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Is Gangaji A Fraud?
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: March 28, 2009 03:29AM

I've just come upon a long article that says Gangaji and her husband, Eli Jaxon-Bear, are frauds. Below is the beginning of the article, followed by a link to the entire article.

Philosophical Challenges Indicating that Gangaji & Eli Are Spiritual Frauds

Please Distribute:

The recent Gangaji Eli scandal provides an excellent opportunity for those who have fallen deeply into their spiritual fraud to rethink the prudence of staying loyal to their "Enlightenment" charade. Although many are unsure how to debunk their well polished act, many have some sense that there is something wrong with their ministry because of the excessive rhetorical nonsense and grandstanding they rely on to obfuscate the legitimate doubts of individuals in their audience.

What follows is an serious philosophical expose that will help those individuals better understand the fraud that Gangaji and Eli perpetuate. There is nothing new or profound in what Gangaji & Eli teach. It has all been plagiarized from portions of Vedic philosophy that originated in India. The only reason they are successful is because the overwhelming majority of their innocent followers are unfamiliar with Vedic philosophy.

Those who have not become helplessly dependent on Gangaji will appreciate this study which uses her own words to illustrate how she has evolved into a deluded pseudo-spiritual megalomaniac. Readers are encouraged to distribute this critical analysis to anyone they know who may benefit from it.

Who is Gangaji & What is She Doing?

Unraveling Gangaji's Home Page Introduction

Can Anyone Please Clearly State What Gangaji is doing?

What follows is an analysis of what a reader will find when they go to the Home Page for Gangaji's Web Site at: [www.gangaji.org]

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Itemized Breakdown of what Gangaji says on her Home Page

"There is a great secret that beings throughout time have announced, the secret of an extraordinary treasure, the treasure of the nectar of eternal life."

Gangaji does not say whom she is alluding to. We are left to assume that she is referring to great spiritual luminaries like Lord Brahma, Narada Muni, Veda Vyasa, Lord Ramachandra, Lord Krishna, Confucius, Zoroastor, Lord Buddha, Lord Jesus, Saint Thomas Aquinas, Muhammad, Lord Caitanya, etc.

"It is the nectar of pure beingness, recognizing itself as consciousness and overflowing in the love of that recognition."

Some of the teaching of Confucius and Lord Buddha might be able to get stretched far enough to support this statement, but those who have actually studied what the greatest sages in history taught know that they would not appreciate the vague, elusive and misleading direction Gangaji's second sentence is heading.

"If you imagine yourself to be located in a body, then you will move that body from place to place, searching for this treasure of nectar."

Here Gangaji is either exposing her ignorance or her inability to communicate clearly. The Vedas clearly indicate that the individual Jiva Atma is not the same as the body. Therefore one of the most rudimentary lessons a beginner transcendentalist quickly realizes is that: "You are NOT the Body." But that is not what Gangaji is saying.

Gangaji indirectly belittles those who "imagine" that they are located in the body, even though she offers no alternative idea as to where she believes the soul resides. What is clearly evident by this badly worded sentence is that Gangaji is directly contradicting the nature of the soul as it is explained in the world's leading authority on that subject, the Bhagavad Gita.

"As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change."- Bhagavad Gita As It Is, Chapter 3 "Contents of the Gita Summarized," Text 13. - LINK: [bhagavadgitaasitis.com]

Gangaji doesn't want her students to properly understand the message of the Bhagavad Gita because that would completely undermine her charade. The more people who learn about the content of that scripture, and it's powerful historic influence on persons far more respected then she can ever expect to become, the less effective she will be in bamboozling people into her philosophically bankrupt understanding of the self.

For example once it is established that the soul does temporarily reside in the body, the next logical question a reasonable person would ask is: "What determines the type of body one gets awarded at birth?" Gangaji would have to make up a good story to explain that because she certainly wouldn't be inclined to teach how it is dependent on the type of consciousness one develops like it is clearly explained in the Gita.

"And whoever, at the end of his life, quits his body remembering Me alone at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt. Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, O son of Kunti, that state he will attain without fail." - Bhagavad Gita As It Is, Chapter 8 "Attaining The Supreme," Text 5-6. - LINK: [bhagavadgitaasitis.com]

The open secret is that the real reason why people are attracted to Gangaji is because she isn't really teaching anything at all! (She openly admits this a little further down in this introduction.) In other words the aspirant need not adopt any disciplinary practices, study any books or change any bad habits. According to her, none of those traditional tools for awakening are necessary or even relevant! That type of indulgent proclamation is indeed pure "Nectar" to the ears of the spiritually lazy, who are so overcome by false ego that they actually believe they are more qualified to succeed at adopting short cuts for "Awakening" then any legitimate prophet ever endorsed.

If Gangaji really believes that the body does not sustain the individual soul, why does she and all of her disciples spend so much time feeding, bathing, and medicating it? Where does Gangaji suggest the individual soul (you,) reside if not in the body? If the body is completely irrelevant, why spend so much time and money sustaining such an entangling illusion? Why not just quite the body altogether if it is of no use to the soul?

The second half of the sentence is a philosophical non-sequitur and not only confusing but misleading. It appears that Gangaji is suggesting that those who identify with the body will be compelled to move it from place to place in search of "Nectar," while those who realize they are not located in the body have no reason to do so. The implication is that those who "Get" what she is teaching are so "Enlightened" they have no reason to engage the external world because it doesn't offer any lessons one can't get by themselves at home sitting in a closet. However people who work with the mentally ill will tell you that hermit like introverts are some of the most delusional crazy people in the world!

The converse is also true. We experience our greatest growth when we break out of our comfort zone and engage in the process of exchanging with others. That is why cults like the Gangaji Foundation demonize the process of defending what they believe because to do so requires rational thinking which would unravel Gangaji's sticky web. Those who are brave enough to peek behind that curtain, will see that Gangaji is simply pulling a lot of emotional levers and spinning a bunch of psychological wheels in order to perpetuate her own egocentric fanfare.

So the question that stares each person in the face is what authority are you going to accept? Some are so enamored by Gangaji's magic word juggling doubletalk that even when she is completely exposed as a fraud, they will continue to accept her confusing, imaginative speculations about the nature of the soul as valid. Those who do are just as culpable for being deceived by Gangaji as she is for deceiving them. Such arrangements are referred to by Vedic sages as the "Cheaters and the Cheated." In other words: Gangaji is there to offer her unfounded, cheap sentimental blessings and speculations about the self to pretentious spiritualists who aren't really interested in a serious spiritual education anyway.

"But, if you will stop all searching right now and tell the truth to yourself, you will know what is known in the core of your bones."

If you are actually ready to face the truth then you will realize that you are a conditioned soul trapped in a web of illusions, propped up by imperfect senses, with the propensity to cheat and make mistakes. You will also realize that "Feelings" or "Emotions," commonly referred to as originating in the heart, are often very deceiving if not tempered by reason. When left unchecked they can lead to some of the most difficult problems one ends up having to settle in their entire life.

The high divorce rate and chronic dependence people have on therapists proves just how deceptive the heart can be! If you are mature enough to accept these two important starting points, then you will know "...at the core of your bones" that the powers of mind, intelligence, and reason must be engaged in concert with the sensations of the heart or you will set yourself up for being terribly mislead by any con-artist who is expert at manipulating your feelings and emotions. Anyone who doesn't readily acknowledge this probably is such a con artist, knowingly or un-knowingly!

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For the rest of the article, see:

[[url=http://mayesvara.gaia.com/blog/2006/12/the_gangaji_challenge_is_she_a_fraud]The Gangaji Challenge - Is She A Fraud?[/url]]

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Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by: quackdave ()
Date: March 28, 2009 05:35AM

helpme2times:

I remember when I first saw a video of Gagaji years ago; another friend (I guess I would say 'fellow seeker') sent it to me, knowing my leanings in the newage direction. I remember feeling 'profoundly relaxed' and kind of 'blissed out' while viewing her discourse with a member of the audience. (reminds me now of Byron Katie) The effect on me was much the same as the videos of the Maharishi (of TM fame) that we meditators used to view, back in the 1970's. At the time I just chalked it up to picking up on the powerful 'vibes' of the 'master', not even entertaining the thought that maybe I was being PUT INTO A TRANCE. (sorry for yelling) Once upon a time, we were sitting ducks. What we now share is the freedom from ever having to go through this again.

I mentioned the evangelicals, and what they accomplished with me as a youngster, but there's so much more for many of us. I think Desire itself is a culprit, of sorts, since our dissatisfaction with our present state was the very vulnerability with which we were duped. I think many gurus along the way did their best to increase that sense of dissatisfaction, too. These are clever, unscrupulous and IMO despicable people. Hopefully, we are helping others see the techniques in play so that they can avoid involvement entirely.

qd

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Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: March 28, 2009 05:55AM

Quote
quackdave
helpme2times:

I remember when I first saw a video of Gagaji years ago; another friend (I guess I would say 'fellow seeker') sent it to me, knowing my leanings in the newage direction. I remember feeling 'profoundly relaxed' and kind of 'blissed out' while viewing her discourse with a member of the audience. (reminds me now of Byron Katie) The effect on me was much the same as the videos of the Maharishi (of TM fame) that we meditators used to view, back in the 1970's. At the time I just chalked it up to picking up on the powerful 'vibes' of the 'master', not even entertaining the thought that maybe I was being PUT INTO A TRANCE. (sorry for yelling) Once upon a time, we were sitting ducks. What we now share is the freedom from ever having to go through this again.

I mentioned the evangelicals, and what they accomplished with me as a youngster, but there's so much more for many of us. I think Desire itself is a culprit, of sorts, since our dissatisfaction with our present state was the very vulnerability with which we were duped. I think many gurus along the way did their best to increase that sense of dissatisfaction, too. These are clever, unscrupulous and IMO despicable people. Hopefully, we are helping others see the techniques in play so that they can avoid involvement entirely.

qd
I have to chuckle because you misspelled Gangaji as "Gagaji" and I thought, how perfect! Because she makes me want to GAG!

Indeed, these teachers are putting us into trance via their dialogues, YouTubes, etc.

I wish I could be as confident as you seem to be when you say "what we now share is the freedom from ever having to go through this again." Of course I would hope this is the case, but I know from past experience that if enough time has gone by and then I go through some sort of life crisis that is very painful, I can be easily sucked back into this stuff.

I really, really hope I am learning a lasting lesson as I continue looking at all of this.

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