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Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: March 26, 2009 07:48AM

I spent many years looking into various teachers of Advaita, or Nonduality. (It's also been called "neo Advaita" by some, which is meant to be derogatory from what I can tell.)

It all started when I read a book by Gangaji, who claimed to be in the lineage of the apparently saintly Ramana Maharshi of India.

Conventiently, Ramana Maharshi has been dead since 1950, so he can't be questioned about any "lineage". But I've read in several places that he never designated one. (If only I had known this when I read the book by Gangaji.)

I feel lucky that I didn't go completely insane while attempting very diligently to follow the advice of Gangaji and other Advaita "teachers".

I am writing this post because I had a big AHA! moment the other day, shortly after reading a post by a member of this forum regarding one of the current neo Advaita "teachers": Tony Parsons.

The info on Tony Parsons was posted in the "Byron Katie" thread by a member known as "The Anticult". The post can be found here:

[[url=http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?12,12906,67354#msg-67354]Tony Parsons Critique[/url]]

The Anticult very quickly and easily saw right through Parsons' claims made on his website. I was in shock at how bogus Parsons' claims actually were when they were pointed out. I wondered why I hadn't been able to see it before.

I would wager it's because my mind has been left in a somewhat sorry state after all of my attempts to "get" what these Advaita teachers have been putting forth. As I said above, I nearly went off the reservation doing so.

I would like to shine a spotlight on an American neo Advaita guy named Charlie Hayes, whom I've had some direct experience with. Thankfully it was short-lived. That's because I once witnessed him be incredibly obnoxious and abusive to someone who admitted that he/she wanted to commit suicide in the midst of dialoguing with Charlie. I was so disgusted that I protested and then ceased having anything to do with him.

I am now quite concerned about this sort of abuse getting heaped upon other vulnerable people. A person who says they are suicidal needs to be handled with great care, by professionals. A suicidal person could easily get pushed over the edge and do themselves in.

One of Charlie's selling points is that he spent many years suffering from bipolar depression. Supposedly he is free of it now and wants to share what he has with others who continue to suffer as he used to. Here is a link to an article mentioning this:

[[url=http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/trad_neo/danger_hayes.htm]Neo-Advaita = Suffering[/url]]

And here is a creepy (imo) YouTube video of Charlie:

[[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRrMLP7UBCw]There is NO "Reference Point" in Being[/url]]

Finally, this is a link to Charlie's website:

[[url=http://theeternalstate.org/]The Eternal State[/url]]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2009 07:53AM by helpme2times.

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Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by: rob ()
Date: March 26, 2009 10:09PM

What dit he tell this suicidal person ?

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Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: March 26, 2009 10:20PM

Quote
rob
What dit he tell this suicidal person ?
I wish I could remember specific things he said. It was long enough ago that unfortunately I can't.

I do remember that he tore into the poor guy relentlessly. As if that would help him become "liberated".

From what I heard, the guy was able eventually to throw Charlie's crap back at him and flee the scene. I hope that's true.

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Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: March 26, 2009 10:38PM

Eek. At Amazon.com, Charlie Hayes' profile says:

"The story" ... Charlie Hayes (14 Dec 1936 - ) 50's was first a jazz musician, then a professional racing driver; intensely active in spiritual disciplines from 1974, precipitated by the devastating loss of his home, wife, most of his possessions, and his Ferrari business, accompanied by a complete "nervous breakdown," for which he was hospitalized for a month. This led to a long search for what had these seeming personal crises happen, culminating in a series of interactions beginning with Siddha Yoga in 1974, TM in 1975, est and Werner Erhard in 1978, and on through near 30 more years with people through whom the ancient Teachings flow without personal agenda, with whom there is Heart-Resonance. Traveled to Australia for meetings with a student of the Guru Nisargadatta Maharaj - "Sailor" Bob Adamson - in September 2005. Loves Tony Parsons, Landmark Education, Byron Katie and others who help make realization of our Original Nature easy and obvious, through a series of simple, yet profound, pointers to what is Real and what is not. The author of three books on spirituality, Charlie currently participates at Landmark Education, and now offers experience-based Life Coaching, with its foundations both Nondual Spirituality and The Work of Byron Katie, in Santa Ana, California. Come say hey at www.awake-now.org."

So he's done est, TM, Siddha Yoga, Landmark Education, Byron Katie "Work"...

One cult after another.

No wonder he feels like he can hack away at a person's soul. He's learned from some diabolical masters.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2009 10:39PM by helpme2times.

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Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 27, 2009 06:57AM

oh dear lord...
This one sounds like a cross between Rael and Werner Werhard.

He was a jazz musician? Then a pro race car driver?
One could start there.
For who? Where are the records for car races he was in?

He owned a Ferrari business? Well, there would also be a record for that franchise.

Just another Story with an uncheckable past. "Jazz musician" probably means, played bongos in a coffee house. (there does appear to be a REAL Charlie Hayes who is a blues musician!)
Is Charlie Hayes even this guys real name?

What is more likely...a guy who sold cars on commission, and did some $25 drag racing (you lose money if you win due to car costs), and $0 bongo playing on the weekend in a beatnik coffee house? Doesn't sound as sexy, except for the beatnik part.

the rest of it is just unspeakable.
But notice the connection with Landmark, Byron Katie, TM, Siddha, and now this new guy, Tony Parsons.
They are all very similar techniques under the hood, even though the paint-job is different.
They are all doing the same techniques on people.

He even has some hypno-speak in AWAKE NOW, that is a hypnotic command.

But this guy is not too clever, to advertise his deep lasting cult connections.
It would sell better if he said he was bitten by a spider in the 1950's in India in the mountains, and attained instant enlightenment, as the spider was a reincarnated Buddha from another dimmension.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2009 07:00AM by The Anticult.

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Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: March 27, 2009 07:50AM

Quote
The Anticult
oh dear lord...
This one sounds like a cross between Rael and Werner Werhard.
And with the bald look, he reminds me of Marshall Applewhite.

In addition to peddling enlightenment, Charlie is selling a book and CD on racing for $59:

[[url=http://www.speedtalk.com/get_sponsored.html]Get Sponsored by Charlie Hayes[/url]]

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Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by: Sparky ()
Date: March 27, 2009 07:54AM

Hmmm. Have his followers all bought black athletic shoes and castrated themselves yet, or is that still pending...

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Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: March 27, 2009 08:02AM

LOL

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Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Wayne Liquorman, suicide
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: March 27, 2009 08:18AM

On a very serious note...

This is an excerpt from a transcribed talk given by neo Advaita guy Wayne Liquorman, mentioning suicide in connection with his "teaching":

Unidentified Participant> In other words it’s what the mind body organism brings to the teaching that mixed with the teaching becomes the whole of what the outcome can be.

Wayne> I would say it’s what the teaching brings to the mind-body organism. In one case the teaching brings peace and joy, contentment in another it brings agony, suffering, misery. Same teaching. I’ve seen this teaching - people who are active, very passionately involved in this teaching - I’ve seen such people have the final understanding. I’ve also seen them commit suicide. Over these 17 years I’ve seen both.

Participant> Because of the teaching or is it because of what’s occurred …

Wayne> OK. So now we have a very interesting question. How do we attribute a single cause to any effect? Yes it both had the teaching, but there were these other factors. So where do you stop in ascribing those factors to the event?

Participant> Seems like this teaching does have certain, I don’t know if they’d qualify as postulates but something like the law of interconnected opposites. It seems so useful as a tool to help understand some of these sort of seemingly odd happenings, like these imbalances that you talk about.

Wayne> I would say it is in fact a very useful tool… But to call it a law is going a little further than I would be comfortable with. I would say it is a way of ordering the universe to talk about it in terms of interconnected opposites. And for some, in some cases, this is a very useful way of understanding it. But it is not a truth, it is not a law. It is a tool.

[[url=http://advaita.org/newsletters/6jan2005.htm]Advaita Fellowship: Webcast Transcript 6 January 2005[/url]]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2009 08:22AM by helpme2times.

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Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: March 27, 2009 08:45AM

One of Charlie Hayes' books is entitled "From the I Am To The I Am: The End of Psychological Suffering".

So he is selling AN END TO SUFFERING, just like his admitted teacher, Byron Katie.

There's an interview with Charlie online and at the end of it, the interviewer says:

PS Days after the ending of out [sic] email conversation we received another e-mail from Charlie wherein he communicates in all honesty:
There is sometimes still a deep, abiding sadness near the core of 'me' and a sense that I am not 'done' ... though I sometimes try to claim that I am. So the unfolding into Light goes ... and the inquiry into who, and what, that 'me' is, continues.
I have been deeply touched by a great many people who have shared their experiences of 'awakening' on the spiritual path on the Internet. And so I am moved to share my process.

[[url=http://www.ods.nl/am1gos/am1gos9/index.html?ch_idioot_us.html~mainFrame]A Tale Told By An Idiot[/url]]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2009 08:47AM by helpme2times.

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