you start doing a bit of research and you soon realise, that its all invented.... its just peter pan, and fairy tales for adults.


CUT : [en.wikipedia.org]

St. Germain : [en.wikipedia.org]

I AM : [en.wikipedia.org]

Great White Brotherhood : [en.wikipedia.org]

Golden Dawn : [en.wikipedia.org]

and many more : [en.wikipedia.org]


Gnosticism is just an extension and rehash of all these groups and more



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2010 09:35AM by savedatlast.

"Gnosticism" as in Samael Aun Weor's neo version of it.

(I would add I think Weor takes it abit further. Especially in a more distructive way.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2010 09:59AM by Keir.

Good point Keir. I think it is quite important to liberate our minds from words like Gnosis and Gnosticism being specifically associated with the Samael Aun Weor teachings which were created by Victor Gomez.

I agree with Savedatlast that the Roisecrucian development and its associated spin offs have a lot of made up stuff. However we should consider the symbolic meanings behind such ideas. Also remember that in essense their main influence is Hermeticism, which for the most part is the philosophical background of such greats as Plato and Aristotle, although of course in a much much earliar form. A lot of the activity in Europe that resulted in the Roisecrucians started when the Medicis of Florence had such books as the Corpus Hermeticum translated after the sacking of Constantinople. In addition to this we also had Platos work and the Koran (and other "lost" works) being translated in Italian and other European languages.

The results of these Renaisance influences should probably seen as being Neutral, both good and bad has come from all of it. While we have had results such as the 30 years war and the Rise of Napolean we have also had the protestant reformation, the scientific revolution and so much of a rise in fair governance. For a start I suggest reading the works of Francis Yates.

I would like to bring up a matter that seems to have not yet been dealt with yet. My concern is with those people who have either chosen to leave Mark Pritchards teaching or have forced to leave (usually the later in this case) yet they still believe in the crap teachings of Victor Gomez, alias Samael Aun Woer.

Sorry this is just not good enough. I have to say that these people do not yet fully comprehend the way that the "teachings" screw with your head to produce Fanaticism and a total destruction of critical thinking skills.

If any of you are still having issues with this have a nothing, hopefully more thorough look at the general Samael Aun Weor forum discussion. There was recently a great post made from someone left another Samael cult that is a good read.

What I love is how these people use the phrase "varification in the astral" or "varify". Do they even know what that term means? Have they ever bothered to study its philosophical, scientific or linguistic mean?

How about that the true psychological significance of bias and influence. Even high school children should know that if you are expecting to see something or kind something you probably will. Or you see things in the way that you are conditioned to see them. For the most part this comes from a cultural background but indoctrination can have the same effect.

What is also wonderful is when these people re use the cult speech of only understanding things intellectually or mentally. Sorry this really just means that you have bothered to do your homework before getting involved in a potentially dangerous practice.

Have you never bothered to look into the Ancient Gnostic thinker Mani who say intellect as being an equal to faith and intuition? Have you never read any of the Corpus Hermetic for yourself?

One last thing as Keir was good enough to point out some time ago why do people who have different teachings on the nature of reality, but basically the same teachings on technique have different experiences in the "astral"? Have any of you who have dumbed Pritcharf but kept Gomez thought about that?

Oh and please remember that those who use cult speach in their answers will be disqualified.

Quote
notanantiGnostic
...
What I love is how these people use the phrase "varification in the astral" or "varify". Do they even know what that term means? Have they ever bothered to study its philosophical, scientific or linguistic mean?

How about that the true psychological significance of bias and influence. ...

One last thing as Keir was good enough to point out some time ago why do people who have different teachings on the nature of reality, but basically the same teachings on technique have different experiences in the "astral"? Have any of you who have dumbed Pritcharf but kept Gomez thought about that?

Oh and please remember that those who use cult speach in their answers will be disqualified.

Thank you notanantiGnostic for emphasizing that point.

yes, its extrordinary how all these groups have one rule for scientists, ie. they don't know what they are doing (even though they are happy to rely on technology of scientists that has been produced with exhaustive research and peer review), and one rule for themselves, ie. anything we say is true because "we know".

its so arrogant and superior and aloof, try that in a scientific situation you'd be a laughing stock, do it in a political situation you'd be a nazi.

when you question people about the astral, ask them if they regularly project with their partners, girlfriends, wives etc. no one can do it.

no one meets other people in the astral other than in rather vague watery situations, there is the odd fluke, but nothing regular and nothing substantial.

when you really clear your mind and start from scratch, without prejudice, without bias, without any kind of religious, mystical doctrine in the back of your mind, even let go of any kind of childhood ideas about fairies, witches, aliens. etc. etc. then what do you personally really know ? and what peer review research has proven any of this stuff ?

what proof is there of anything beyond the tanglible known physical existance.

take something like the astral, that appears practical and real, to actually scientifically prove it is anything more than just some kind of vivid subsconsious imaginative experience you need to project with other people, meet them, exchange information in the astral and then wake up and confirm it with them physically.

if you have never done this, and i mean really done it on multiple occasions, again and again, with various people, that makes it a valid proven experience, well you have no way of knowing whether its all just a trick of your imagination.

Saying that the metaphysical cannot be studied like this, or that its a personal experience etc. etc. is just not good enough, since a mad person has experiences that he truely feels are real and valid. What is the difference between a mad person having vivid experiences and someone in a cult group claiming all kinds of astral experiences, that he has no way of proving or relating back to real life ? both "know" their experiences are real.......

Another often used excuse is that we are not in touch these days, people were so much more mystical in the past, but histroy disagrees, people were highly superstitious and chopped each others heads off on mere hearsay. How was that more mystical and enlightened ?

Thousands of years of human existance has produced real tanglible technology that works, that verges on being supernatural, you can chat on video with someone the other side of the world. You can move at high speed in an areoplane, you can even go into orbit around the planet if you have a few hundred thousand dollars to spare. In time as understanding improves we will probably have warp drives, teleporters, force fields, you name it..... I'd put far more stock in technology than mystical clap trap.

How come all this improvement hasn't produced a single scientific valid research of the supernatural and metaphysical ?

There are alot of awefully intelligent people out there writing PhDs. on all kinds of abstract and obscure subject matter, and yet somehow the mystics while not producing anything valid themselves manage to discount all human scientific discovery as behind, degenerate even negative.

A mystics methodology is frankly no different to an insane person in its modus operandii.

On top of this they have the ultimate contradiction that they have the benefit of all humanity as their goal, whilst a chosen few in the organisation benefit from its followers financial support, and at the same time rejecting any kind of real science that could prove their theories once and for all and open the mystical world to all humanity.

Its absurd when you think into it and step back from all the religious and mystical ideas in the back of your mind.

If you really want to benefit humanity, then come on guys, come with something solid, demonstrate what you are talking about is real, show it to the world, change peoples whole idea and perspective on life, but do for real, with tangible facts, not a rambling, misleading, doctrine that you expect people to take on face value and on faith.

The gnostics and many others tell you its an internal science, that you have to investigate for yourself, but this is not good enough. It has to be tangible, it has to be real, and it has to be confirmed at very least by interaction with others during some of those mystical experiences.

Otherwise all you have is high functioning delusionals.

I can say that I have personaolly experienced and proved the idea that the earth being carried on the back of a giant spider, that when he stumbles it causes earthquakes, I can say I have seen it in my mystical experiences, I can say for me its real and valid, and I can invite you to experience it as well, and you can probably also have highly imaginative experiences similar to mine, especially after I have spent 6-12 months subconsicously programming you with my ideas. Does that prove the earth is being carried on the back of a giant spider ?

You dig back into all your childhood ideas, Jesus, Allah, Buddha, fairies, angels, witches, demons, its all just childhood fantasy, you have nothing real or tangible or solid that supports any of this stuff.

Its as though we come out of childhood, discover all this stuff is rubbish, move forwards with much excitement into adulthood and then realise its nothing but responsibilities, chores, and boredom.... so inorder to recapture some of our childhood we reinvent alot of fantasy stuff to keep ourselves happy. Its all garbage. Its also highly convenient for controlling other people. How many kings, even in recent times, GW Bush to some extent started massive wars in the name of god.... I can say whatever I like so long as I have god on my side, and you have no way of proving me wrong. Its just marvellous. You are with me or you are against god. What a great con job.

Children who feel neglected or lonely often invent imaginary friends so that they can control situations and their parents. My imaginary friend doesn't want to go shopping, she wants ice cream, she wants to watch a movie etc. etc. etc. Its a control mechanism, since only the child can communicate with the imaginary friend. Without real experiential proof, how is all the mystical stuff any different from this ? Life's neglected losers hanging onto some shred of childhood fantasy to make themselves feel less hard done by.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2010 12:05AM by savedatlast.

Look at it another way

Take the internet, and see what it has done for the world, how much more we are in touch, how we are more connected, how much its improved peoples lives.

Go back in histroy, Take the Jet Engine, The television, The Radio, Electricity, Combustion, The Wheel.

Look at how car manufacturers have improved their vehicles, how much safer they are now than they used to be, we can move about at speed, without fearing terrible injury.

Now lets look at what religion, mystical ideas, metapysics, supernatural etc. etc. has done for the world.... Remember that scientists are not claiming to exist for the benefit of humanity, they are not making huge pronouncements, they are just investigating the world around us and improving our understanding of it...... anything religious or mystical on the other hand claims to want to enlighten all humanity... that is their goal... so lets see what they have achieved compared to the scientists .......

Huge resoruces poured into relatively useless temples, churches and the like that mainly seem to produce a bigoted approach to life, Hatred, Spite, Envy, Wars, Killing, endless amounts of Blood shed, almost all wars have been caused by some kind of unquestionable religious doctrine, Misleading, watery unclear information in books like the bible and Kooran, that have led to open manipulation of peoples good will. On and on it goes...... The only benefits from religion is a bit of incidental goodwill and could have just as easily happened without any religion. I am sorry but any local neighbourhood church or mosque, no matter what good work it might claim to be doing in the local community, has its hands soaked in thousands of years of bloodshed.

Compare that with real tangible science and technology's benefits for humanity with those who claim to have humanities enlightenment as their primary goal.

Then look at how cult groups like the Gnostic Movement behave... How leaders like Belzebuub and others behave. Its not different, its just the same thing with a different salad dressing on it.

It is what it is...... you cannot make excuses.

There is no actual tangible benefit to anyone who is involved in religion, metaphysics, supernatural, or any of this stuff, its just imaginary. I am not saying that the supernatural doesn't exist, I am saying that people's approach to it is all wrong.

What is worse is that people get tied up into this clap trap from a very young age, they want to believe in god, or angels, demons, or allah, buddha, krishna, or any manner of masters, or different kinds of superior and inferor beings. Even paganism is largely focused around the changing seasons, which are just a freak of nature caused by the tilt of the earth's axis.

They have clearly got it all wrong, and what is worse, is their dogmatic and aggresivee attitude, which is a biproduct of their failure to validate their doctrine and ideals, has produced 99% of the worlds social problems.

I think you can go so far as to say that the entire world is mentally unstable when it comes to anything religious or supernatural. Even the most intelligent people abandon their rationalilty for some kind of myth and fantasy.

Only once you get to this standpoint and eliminate all myth, fantasy, belief, creed, doctrine, rubbish other people have told you, even watery ideas about astrology, astral projection, what mystical experiences are meant to be like etc. etc. etc. ONLY THEN can you sit down and start to build a clear picture for yourself.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2010 12:53AM by savedatlast.

I just thought I would put a note here for everyone that all the Centres and studies groups in Greece are now gone. However this happened, it is an excellent occurrence.

In regards to what i said before I would love to know what I can do to get the Belzebuub worshipers out of Toronto, other than ripping down their posters whenever I can.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2010 04:39AM by rrmoderator.

Hello notanantiGnostic I paste an abstract of an email that was sent from former members of the Gnostic Movement in Greece, who were forced, due to the illegal actions of the members that were running it, to take back their positions on the Board in order to close down those centers.

"We would like to inform that The Gnostic Movement of Greece (Athens and Thessaloniki centers), have no longer any relation of any kind or type with the Gnostic Movement under the guidance of the teachings of Mark Pritchard (aka Belzebuub). From now on the Gnostic Movement of Greece does not teach, does not spread and has no relation with any of the teachings whose origin are from the above mentioned person.

From the first years that Gnostic Movement of Greece operates, we tried to teach and spread the Gnostic teachings, speaking through our personal experience and investigation. Unfortunately we were mistaken by believing that the teachings of the so called Belzebuub are the original Gnostic Teachings.

The facts that occurred in the last months and for the length of time (including illegal actions, lies, promotion of fanaticism, worhip of Mark Pritchard, misuse of money and many other things), which were based on instructions from Mark Pritchard or supported by him directly or indirectly, brought enough significant facts and inexplicable behaviours that came to the surface. These, unfortunately present that the teachings of Mark Pritchard, his instructions and his statements in general, do not comply (in fact they are the direct opposite) with the principles that Gnostic Movement of Greece was set up to serve as a spiritual organization. The organization will therefore close in due course.

We hereby declare that we were deceived and we apologize to all students. Despite the fact that we always tried to teach through our personal experience, we confess that we neglected some details which were very carefully hidden and covered."