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Re: The Gnostic Movement/Gnosticweb lead by Mark H. Pritchard (Belzebuub)
Posted by: allboutgnosis ()
Date: June 07, 2010 02:23AM

In the way that you are talking about it, there is nothing wrong with him getting a salary as long as people know about that.

But the money is from people's donations and they don't know that their money has gone towards paying him personally. And not only they don't know, but because of that they even donate more directly to him thourgh his web sites for example, or through the centers all around the world.

Not to mention that a few years ago he was asked publicly what his job is and he said he is doing renovations...
So nothing wrong as long as things are clear to everyone..

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Re: The Gnostic Movement/Gnosticweb lead by Mark H. Pritchard (Belzebuub)
Posted by: notanantiGnostic ()
Date: June 07, 2010 02:33AM

I think I answered DSMs question before I knew it was asked but please let us know if you require further explanation. Other posters may wish to offer more details.

There is not inherently a problem with getting a salary but there should be accountability for it.There is also a problem of a man asking others to sacrifice for the organization while there is no sign of him doing the same.

Also the complete lack of a disclosure of the existance of this salary, one might even call it a cover up, shows a major problem with honesty.

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Re: The Gnostic Movement/Gnosticweb lead by Mark H. Pritchard (Belzebuub)
Posted by: savedatlast ()
Date: June 07, 2010 02:52AM

People are angry and rightly so, because they feel they have been cheated, conned and defrauded.

There is nothing wrong with a salary pursay, but when it comes from people's generous donations, and goodwill and keen spirit to be involved with the organisation, but that organisation is run like a dictatorship, where opinions are manipulated and a few people benefit substantially from controlling and if necessary excommunicating anyone that disagrees with the agenda, they have a right to ask some hard questions.

How would you feel if you donated money to your local Catholic Church's appeal to help the poor, you put in long hours unpaid to help raise funds and then found out the Priest paid himself a handsome salary with your donations and none of them got used for improverished people, they all got diverted to his private interests.

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Re: The Gnostic Movement/Gnosticweb lead by Mark H. Pritchard (Belzebuub)
Posted by: allboutgnosis ()
Date: June 07, 2010 04:57AM

Yes the problem is that this is not known to people. And when you donate money to somewhere you want to know where the money goes. So not only people do not know that, but they also donate money directly to him either through his website or through his paypal account or any other way - since they don't know that he already gets money.
So no problem if he would say in public that he gets money from the donations and even thank people for that. But instead not only he says nothing, but a few years ago he said publicly the he is working (renovating houses etc). H has never mentioned that he gets donations in order to leave, and he also has complained that he leaves poorly.

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Re: The Gnostic Movement/Gnosticweb lead by Mark H. Pritchard (Belzebuub)
Posted by: sayallnow ()
Date: June 07, 2010 06:15AM

So, easily, this brings up these questions:
1. A salary is provided to a company employee? But as Mark claims to be a spiritual teacher and in his teachings he preaches that the Divine will provide food and shelter for the one who does the Esoteric Work and helps humanity, doesn't this somehow seems strange? Does, he mean the Divine will drive people to donate money to him. If so, why to ask for mooooore? If so, how come he does not have enough and also needs a salary...?
Food and shelter isn't the only thing a Master/Teacher (a person who claims to be one) needs? What more he needs? Let's say some type of fortune? Why? To gather riches here on earth? Doesn't Christ said that our heart is where our treasures are and to gather our treasures in heaven? I wonder...
2. If someone says that he needs a salary to enter to a country and he did that only for that reason... Isn't this a direct lie and cheating? Towards the hosting country and to students? Isn't a teacher an example to others as to what esoteric work is as a result? I wonder too...
3. His and his wife's visible presence all this time in USA, checking from their website and announcements, sums up to a few articles published. Is this all about? All that money spent for their staying there all this time is to publish some vague articles to some e-newspapers? Which can be done through sending an email to some article websites and pay a few bucks for it? And to promote some book that others wrote? Why? Like the Flight of The Feathered Serpent for example which is a good book after all? Perhaps someone may say "They work there to promote Gnosis and many things are happening behind the scene for which you have no idea"... And I ask.. Why? Is this some kind of secret plan to spread Gnosis behind some curtains? Well, in fact I have seen videos and teachings of other spiritual people (who also say that to follow no leader/guru, etc). Like Krishnamurti for example. He was everywhere, even talked to United Nations. Invited by channels in many countries, etc etc. Who wrote their own books and not copied excerpts from other people books. Hey, even the koan examples (like the koan of hanging man) he writes are slightly altered standard buddhist koans, but written in a more dramatic style... Where is the Divine originality and new thing in all these?
So all these people (like Krishnamurti) were out in lectures talking, out to the public and discussed and answered and argued and got to no conflict with anyone disagreeing with them. Why the secrecy in Mark and Edith actions? Who they afraid? The Black Lodge? Why? Isn't he self-protected as a Divine Being he claims to be? Or is all that he claims from himself a bunch of nonsense? Don't the people in Gnostic Movement say that we are with light and not with darkness? So why these 2 people act "behind the scenes" and not in front of them? Perhaps for the Black Lodge not to know what they are doing? Black Lodge cannot see when some people do things in hidden? Something like superman and cannot xray through lead for example? Hey, I thought of another one. Aren't the dark forces working usually in the darkness and in hidden? His physical address also remains a mystery to many. No one can reach him by email or standard mail somewhere unless this passes through a generic email request from his site or from the organization website.
Again.. why the secrecy? What is he afraid of? In fact, is he afraid? Really? Didn't he eliminate this through his spiritual work? Is this possible? Why all other Teachers/Masters, etc speak out in the open and he is speaking through a pc camera for 30 min every week only? Is it perhaps that if he stays longer he may loses the capability to stay focus and answer to more difficult questions? And why in those "talks" people are screened -before they ask- on what they will ask? Isn't he a divine being with huge knowledge from above, who can answer anything? I wonder. Well, I participated in many of these live talks via web and usually the people who were first in a row to ask questions to him were usually people who had so common questions that anyone who had attended 2 years in lectures could also answer by listening to others who asked and simply use a little of his mind. He would simply have to use good English and sound calm and some manly accent. That is all about.
4. Why he asks for money all the time? Through the foundation and the gnostic movement and directly? If he is doing a great spiritual work isn't the Divine providing for him? How come? Hmmm... isn't it possible he is not doing it and thus he tries to find ways to ask for money through different ways? I wonder...
5. And what about those gatherings of Gnostic Movement mentioning "... A day or evening of talks, meditation, light refreshments, and a special preview of Secret Quest...". Isn't this secret quest thing a quite generic series of 3 videos about Gnosis also published in youtube? Is there more? If so, why???? Why not all published in youtube? Isn't Gnosis for free to all as they claim? Why do they sell this. If all videos are in youtube, on the other hand, why not simply give people the url to watch it? Must they attend a specific place with refreshments and pay some good money to go and attend it as donations for finding land to build a retreat? I saw this thing about the Secret Quest and it was generic about Gnosis and not about buying some property somewhere in Europe! How do they mix all these together and the same time they ask for money? Is this the case after all? Are the centers of gnostic movement some kind of tea and refreshment clubs? Don't people go there by their own will? Do they have to be lured with some soda and cake to go? Why? Just imagine the concept.

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Re: The Gnostic Movement/Gnosticweb lead by Mark H. Pritchard (Belzebuub)
Posted by: dsm ()
Date: June 07, 2010 09:55AM

Well, savedatlast, we generally take up separate collections for the poor and the parish finances are in an annual report like everything else. I do agree that accountability and reasonable work are important, but sometimes I see people "piling on" with complaints that veer away from actual questions of cult abuse and seem almost abusive themselves.

It is not uncommon for members of churches and similar groups to think they are supposed to receive all kinds of benefits without ever being realistic about the work, skills, and resources that must be paid for in order to make an organization work. People who work hard to run businesses and church groups etc are attacked every day b y those who think they are owed something just for showing up. I just felt like pulling this gnostic cult discussion back onto the questions of what makes it a cult. Having a salaried leadership does not mean a group is a cult.

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Re: The Gnostic Movement/Gnosticweb lead by Mark H. Pritchard (Belzebuub)
Posted by: savedatlast ()
Date: June 07, 2010 10:06AM

I don't know who you are or what your intentions are on this forum, but with 29 pages of postings I think its been pretty well established that its a cult group, I suggest you re read some of the older postings.

Salaried leadership is just another example of one rule for those in charge and one rule for everyone else.

Here is the premise of the organisation : "You must make personal sacrifices to progress spiritually, you can't gain the metaphysical skills to investigate all our information unless you make these sacrifices, it must come from the heart, you should move to a different city, all alone, even a foreign country and put your hard earned wages into establishing and advertising a new centre for us, build your sacrifice, put your heart and sole into it."

But I'll stay at home in my comfortable house that's all paid for with your donations and oversee everything....

nice work if you can get it.......

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Re: The Gnostic Movement/Gnosticweb lead by Mark H. Pritchard (Belzebuub)
Posted by: notanantiGnostic ()
Date: June 07, 2010 10:35AM

Considering that a lack of financial accountability or accountability of leadership is an essential qualification of a cult the matter we are discussing is quite relavent. In this case we are talking about a so called leader how has absolutely no accountability for what he is paid for. There are also other forms of financial mismanagement that I'm not in a position to discuss here.

DSM so far you are not demonstrating an understanding of the discussion that has already taken place here. We are not talking about people not getting some from a leader in regards to a salary we are talking about exploitation from a leader who has absolutely no accountability. I'm pretty sure that this has all been explained quite thoroughly in this discussion.
I'm not really sure what special experience or knowledge you have to offer us here DSM. So far you are not showing much understand of this situation. If you would like to ask some questions about the Gnostic Movement feel free to do so, otherwise your not really helping.

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Re: The Gnostic Movement/Gnosticweb lead by Mark H. Pritchard (Belzebuub)
Posted by: dsm ()
Date: June 07, 2010 10:38AM

savedatlast, salary is not the point. The other things you mention, such as relocation and the diversion of more than a token amount of personal resources, those are what prove that it is a cult. They have nothing to do with salary. In fact, in any cult the leader often claims no salary at all, but of course he has almost sole access to a huge expense account.

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Re: The Gnostic Movement/Gnosticweb lead by Mark H. Pritchard (Belzebuub)
Posted by: notanantiGnostic ()
Date: June 07, 2010 11:08AM

"They have nothing to do with salary. In fact, in any cult the leader often claims no salary at all, but of course he has almost sole access to a huge expense account."

This is a very odd statement. Either we should read it as DSM stating that we should have a different standard for those who are seen as cult leaders or that there is only one way that financial exploitation can take place. Who is "DSM" by the way to be dictating what the point is in this discussion?

Just so we are clear there are two major problems with this salary.

1st there is no disclosure in regards to what work is done in turn for this payment.

2nd Most people who get involved are not even informed that Pritchard gets a salary. As was pointed out, this is probably something you would want to know when you are considering if you should donate money directly towards someone.

This is likely donating money to someone who appears to homeless but who in fact has an SUV hidden around the corner.

Financial mismanagment and lack of accountability are standard qualifications of a cult. A bogus salary certainly qualifies as part of that mix in the case of this organization.

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