"So far not one shred of evidence has been presented that would indicate that this group is abusive or destructive in any significant fashion.

As the saying goes... time to put up or shutup.

Are you up to the task?"

Interesting that Typical is deciding that they can make their own standards, not define or justify those standards but expects others to live up to those non-objective standards. I do not accept your standards, just as I rejected Mark Pritchards arbitrary rules about how to live my life.

"Didn't I know that? No, I did not because I do not believe that is true. It is true for some of the large, crusty old boring churches but that is irrelevant because I was obviously referring to the "Rev. Goodpastor's First Church of the Nazerene" type operations."

Again so what? Why should those nuts not also be held to account if they are misusing people. Have you not noticed how many teachings to not in anyways fall under the cetegory of being dangerous?

"Pritchard's operation has a strong internet presence and some oddball sexual teachings/practices that make him an easy target."

Actually the way that the sexual manipulation in this organization works is most strong in guilting people for their past experiences, this ties in with the never being good enough qualification. Also the way that couples are barred up to only marry someone in the organization. This means that it is much harder to get out of the organization, since when someone does start to have bad feelings in regards to the organization than they must either convince their partner or leave them. Are you aware that the teachings are to never let out sperm during sex? To do so will insure that you will definately go to hell and also fall this life spiritually. So sure it is not the typical way a cult uses sex to manipulate but having absorbed this teaching for my self at one point I can tell you it is quite the mindfuck.

So no it is not a matter of being an easy target because of someone one internet. I have first hand experience with being taught these teachings. I had a partner in a commited relationship so I eventually said screw this after I fully realized how the sex teachings worked. But I did fully absorb the teachings in person and on the internet. This experience made me feel the need to speak out and warn others.


"Six bedrooms? If you want to call that a mansion you have a little homework to do. "

Your missing the point. The concern with point made about the house is the complete lack of accountability. What is Pritchards responsibilities to the organization? What is his job description? If he is paid like an employee why is he not treated like one? And as a criticism of his teaching as a man who is supposed to be sacrificing himself for humanity why does he take so much and give so little?

"One regular poster here impugned my intelligence TWICE here and you said nothing. There is clearly a double standard going on. "

The moderator has been doing this for a long time so he is able to have a clear standard of what he accepts and what he doesn't. In fact he accepted a lot from you before even giving you awarning. If you are referring to me as insulting you, if it can be consider to be equal it has happened far less often than your innappropriate behaviour and if it does qualify it was in self defence. These issues have been dealt with a many times before.

If you have issues with what has been said to you in this discussion or in the other why not bring those specific issues up? And they can be explained? I would than like be able to fill several pages with your violations.

I do not see a double standard here, you have been giving far more tolerance than you deserve., perhaps because you are helping to show the flaws with Pritchards nonsense.

Oh and by the way. You did catch the drift that this is an Anti-cult not a pro cult education forum right? Did you expect The moderator to have apologist leanings?

"And again...more unsubstantiated accusations. "

No it is my opinion and may assessment of the situation. I find your behaviour disgusting and intolerant.

"Notanti>"Not yet anyways, notice how they are building retreat centres. I would be concerned. "

rrmoderator? Have you no fair standards at all?! This really is beyond the pale...."

What exactly is your case here Typical? From my experiences with the organization in question I am quite worried about what those retreat centres will turn into in a few years. If you had actually read the rest of this discussion you would know that, as i have discussed this matter already.

For the most part they are poor planners and lack of real purpose or direction. This goes along with the fact that they create a new system of web pages almost constantly. I do not see them as a suicide cult, at the moment, but considering they are lead by a man who clearly qualifies as a magolomaniac (from my experience and others who have posted here), I would not be suprised if things turned that way. I don't suspect they would turn into sucide grounds, although that has happened with other Samael following groups, but I do suspect they will become compounds at some point. Why are they even thinking of building retreat centres when they can't keep their regular centres operational? I just noticed that the London centre that they were so proud of a year ago appears to have shut down. I suspect this because it has reverted back to a Gnostic Study group instead of a centre.

I have heard accounts of Pritchard that clearly make him appear to be mentally ill. He has been well described as a germophobe and suffering from obsessive compulsive disorder (I'm not able to substantiate this but it would fit with his worldview). Now how does this fit with a man who claims to have destroyed all his "egos"?

Typical have you heard about how he coerces or guilts others into do Chains of prayer for him for hours on end? That is written about by another in this forum. I mention it because it fits with the accusation of him being a magolomaniac.

How is this concern beyond the Pale? I think if you had actually read the entire discussion, and thought about what was written here, insteand of reacting you might have not had this objection.

Just to clearify for anyone, I am not able to correct all of TypicalSeekers erroneous statements at this time, or at least not the 3rd, 4th or 5th time that said contributor has brought them up and some odd and out of place statements I may have not been able to get to in the first place. Perhaps I will get to them at some point as they may be good inspiration to point out the problems of this organization and to better explain them.

However my real interest at this time is talking about these prayer chains that more advanced students have to do. This is where they stand in a circle for hours on end and pray for Mark and Edith. You can read a description of these chains in the articles by the woman who translated much of Marks work and was threatened with a lawsuit for creating her own website when she left.

I am fascinated by this ritualistic practice as it very much contradicts what i was taught that we are not to worry about questions about Mark but to focus on his teachings. This was taught by explaining that it was not about him. If it is not about him than why is he worshipped like this? How does this make sense?

I would love to have Jordan come back and explain this contradiction for us. Jordan are you out there? You can also try to explain so much of this if you would like. But no Bezlebuub clearly states, will be accepted.

To whom it may concern:

"TypicalSeeker" has been banned from this message board.

For my point about the Chains that are done in the higher level of the Gnostic Movement I wanted to provide a source.

The story was typed out by someone in this discussion called free_free and you can read that on this page, [forum.culteducation.com]

"Twice a week (excluding weekends) after the work we with my partner rushed to the center to clean it and to do the chains with others teachers and trainees for “VM Belzebuub and his wife”. (Chains - when the group of people with joined hangs pray to Logos for help and protection, etc). Some chains in other centres were done for as long as 24 hours. Some people were doing chains so long they have damaged their health. I was wondering why do we need to keep begging the Logos for the same thing (usually for protection and help for Mr Pritchard and his wife) for so many hours exhausting ourselves. Why do we just not ask the Logos 3 times, and if it is according to the divine law then Logos will fulfil it. If it is not - then what the point of begging them for so many hours? Of course I could not ask a “teacher” such direct question, I would be marked straight away as a “heretic” and would be “thrown away”, I was afraid to do it. But once there was a moment when my irritation on the subject of long chains showed on my face in front of a teacher at the centre. He called me by phone to talk about it and to give me another “warning”. I answered that I do not trust him, that he is not sincere and honest as he used to be, but judgemental and secretive, that I am not going to continue to do the “teacher course” anymore. I was doing that course, which initially was designed for 9 weeks for more then a year! I knew more than the teacher himself, I started to study VM Samael’s other works and joined another school. "

Here is another source that testamony. [ca.groups.yahoo.com]

I had to go through all the pages of this discussion to find these references and I having done that I would like to challenge anyone with sympathies towards "TypicalSeeker" to actually read what is written here and then come back and debate the issues involved. Said contributor clearly had not done this, as the information that was asked for was given several times over.

Just wanted to mention that I have started to organize the information on the various Samael Aun Weor group in the main discussion. [forum.culteducation.com]

Quote
dragoneye
Hello everyone

I was in this movement for a few years and I only left it relatively recently. As time went on, the activities started to look more and more cultish in nature.. and let me tell you, after leaving the movement, I have never felt so spiritually free in my life. I was sick of being stuck in a gnostic box with only a small peephole into normal life.

I have so much more stuff I can reveal about this organization (stuff quite dark), but I fear that if I reveal too much, my identity could be discovered, which I do not want since they have my contact details etc.

All I can really do is just warn people that if you stay in this movement, you will not experience what life has to offer, what happiness is, etc. You will ultimately fall into a downward spiral of self criticism and youre not able to think for yourself anymore, and heck, creativity itself seems to be discouraged.

Thank you dranoeye for your testamony. Each and everyone counts.

Please dont let Aun Weor supporters intimidate, harrass or force you off the board.
Your testamony matters.

Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.

1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

Absolutely, a dictatorship. Members are given the task of implementing the master's wishes. Those that don't measure up can be thrown out and replaced with those who do, at his whim. Quite an advantage to have, when it is believed that only those chosen by his nibs to be members can really awaken.

2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

After a certain point, to question the group or master and their methods/teachings will result in suspicion, rapid demotion and probable exit from the group. To not conform will result in suspicion and being an outcast.

3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

None that people seem to be aware of.

4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

The inhabitants of this planet are doomed, the end will come soon. Best to become good “gnostics” while you have a chance. Anything that doesn't go the master's way is an obvious attempt by evil forces to thwart the “Christ”. Personal problems are seen as tests from the white lodge, even when they could be seen from another viewpoint as the obvious result of foolish mistakes. All other groups and teachings are wrong and ultimately come from the demons of the “black lodge” in an effort to lead people to hell.

5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

They couldn't overcome their egos, gave in to mundane attachments, didn't use the techniques properly, were led astray by the “black lodge”. They are cut off completely, failures, perhaps even traitors.

6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

On various boards such as this.

7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.

Not yet.

8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".

We are full of egos, and know our lowly place. The master on the other hand is exalted as divinity.

9. The group/leader is always right.

He is a spiritual master with a mandate from the “white lodge”. The only one on planet earth. His word is both infallible and divine. To refuse to acknowledge him thus is really to turn your back on him, earning a one way ticket to hell.

10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

His doctrine and methods are the only ones really acceptable. No other methods are really seen as viable, nor are they tolerated. Findings that don't coincide with his are wrong due to the egos. The master has the answers and has given us all the information we need to awaken. The rest is just a distraction.

Hi Cogito, Ergo Sum

I really like your clear analysis. What is the cause of your interest. Were you ever invovled in a Samael Aun Weor group?

Yes notanantiGnostic, I have been involved with groups including this one. This was just a quick analysis off the top of my head, these points I don't think anyone even from this group could or would deny. They are quite common to new age "gnostic" groups. They could try to justify or sugarcoat perhaps, but not deny. I could go into each one in some detail with examples but it would be quite lengthy. I also have no real wish to single any one out inadvertently or otherwise, only the cultish structure and practices of these groups. Underneath it all people are people, after all. The “find out for yourself” catchphrase is a healthy sentiment but in many ways also a nonsense due to the way the mind and these organizations work. Or is it coincidence that each different group has no shortage of students claiming experience to know their own group is the genuine article, largely consistent with their own indoctrination, yet completely at odds with other groups. Indeed what passes for experiences could also be questioned. Dreams, fleeting “astral” experiences perhaps colored by suggestion. Often open to interpretation. Or the intuitive”from the heart” feeling that it is right, the same one felt by every religious fanatic.

I see them all, more or less, as comparable to an extremely virulent form of Jehova's Witness or Mormon type of organization. With the difference that this group believe they have a heavenly being in the flesh to follow and worship, similar to other new age "gnostic" groups. A mixture of new age fanaticism and guru worship, perhaps disguising underneath it all a type of religious fundamentalism. Very rigid.

They, like other new age “gnostic” groups, use what appears to be questionable recruitment techniques. From a simple interest in one of the advertised courses or a simple interest in genuine gnosis, people will eventually find something very different. They are an obvious fishing expedition, a recruitment drive. The whole thing appears a very gradual indoctrination including what could be viewed by some as a fear based type of psychological manipulation along the way. With the potential to become fanatical and all consuming. If they were more open about the teachings and requirements to be eventually placed on people from the beginning it would seem much fairer. They seem careful not to do this.....it will be covered in the next course.......it's too complicated to explain at this stage... etc. Very convenient. Whether Victor Rodriguez was sane is debatable, but his warnings of groups with the “non plus ultra”, that something no one else has, gathering henchman, tyrants forbidding people from gaining knowledge, excommunication and threats, property changing hands, families shut out or abandoned etc are all applicable. In fact some of his words seem brilliant. What a legacy.

The whole new age gnostic scene appears an unhealthy one. So many groups claiming to be the only one with the true teachings, or the real “master”. Group A claims to be backed by the “white lodge” with true teachings and a genuine master. Group B claims the same and declares group A evil. Group C says they are both evil and they are the only genuine group. Groups that simply study Rodriguez teachings in a “pure” way declare them all mythomaniacs that are leading people to hell, yet don't see their own doctrine based fanaticism. Nor do they realize these splinter groups are the direct outcome of these “pure” teachings, often from Rodriugez's closest and most trusted disciples. If the “tree is known by it's fruit' as they are fond of quoting, the new age gnostic fruit is poisoned and the tree rotten.

If there is a hierarchy of enlightened beings guiding this planet, they might weep when they consider the overall inanity of these groups, including the one in question. Perhaps tears of laughter.

It seems both ironic and humerus that they teach that the “absolute” gave forth particles of itself, out of love, so that they can have the chance to awaken. In all of creation, the entire billions of years old universe if I am not mistaken. The “cosmic day”. The incredible intricacy and complexity of this planet for this purpose. Then enlightened beings hide the “true doctrine” away from almost everyone, and only allow those with access to a certain person a chance. When you get to the pearly gates you might hear this.........Ah, Mr. Soandso. I see you very genuinely tried your best and in fact made some headway. Very spiritually motivated, though you have made the same mistake as others before you, notably such as Buddha, Mohammed, Gandhi, Mother Theresa etc. You didn't find a self proclaimed gnostic master and submit your mind and will to him or her. You didn't acknowledge Master Wrongspelling and we are very political up here. He is one of us. We are really an “old boys” network, you will need the “old school tie” as a prerequisite. Down elevator for you............next!

Though it is the obvious cultish nature of these organizations that are the point. Apart from this, people should be allowed the freedom to believe what they wish, no matter how silly it seems.

Thanks Cogito,

I agree with your very much however I feel that if someone is exploiting others such are Mark and Edith Pritchard appear to be doing than they should be called out on it and evidence should be presented to show this exploitation of others. I am not aware of anyone else in this organization who would fit the characteristics of being more a victimizer than a victim to such a degree as those two.

There is also a factor of group dynamics to consider here. The feeling of belonging to a group is an major factor in ones desire to not leave the group. For a few days after I had learned that the system that was being taught was complete nonsense, I still desired to keep a connection to the friends that I made. In the end I realized that this could never work as the people who I had seen as friends were the ones who did the justified lying that got me stuck in the situation I was finding my way out of.

It is interesting thou that there is one two particular things that I think this organization does which tend to be overshadowed by their agenda. I have recently come to terms with the fact that it is ok to say that these things are positive in their limited sense. The first one is giving people an introductory understanding of astral projecting and lucid dreaming ideas. If you took the course with a critical eye some good things for exploring your dream state might come out of that. Having said that I think many things that are taught even from the beginning on these matters that they teach are just plain wrong, but if this leads to researching the matters on your own than it may be helpful. Also understanding that you can approach a book like the Bible on your own terms is a very helpful ideas. Having said this what appeared like a benefit of this organization initially in regards to these matters was that they did everything on a "volunteer' basis. This looked too good to be true and it turned out to be so as all of it was to promote their agenda of having more loyal subjects of their master and to justify the existence of their organization.

All of this gives me a lot to reflect on in regards to what kind of egalitarian organization (ie not like the Gnostic Movement) would actually be beneficial to people.