TypicalSeeker:

You have admitted that the group is not democratic and therefore the leadership has no meaningful accountability.

You apparently cannot cite any specific means of financial accountability through independently audited annual reports, which disclose details concerning compensation and expenses paid out from group funds.

You have repeated a rather typical "cult apologist" claim, which is that "most religions" are "cults."

See [www.culteducation.com]

Webster's Dictionary defines a cult as:

"1. A formal religious veneration 2. A system of religious beliefs and rituals also its body of adherents; 3. A religion regarded as "unorthodox or spurious."; 4. A system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator; 5. a: A great devotion to a person, idea, thing; esp.: such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad, b: A usually small circle of persons united by devotion or allegiance to an artistic or intellectual movement or figure."

This definition obviously could include everything from Barbie collectors to old "Deadheads," "Trekkies" to diehard Elvis fans. American history might also include within such a definition the devoted followers of Mary Baker Eddy the founder of Christian Science, or the Mormons united through their devotion to Joseph Smith. Both these religious groups were once largely regarded as "unorthodox or spurious." However, the most important concern today is not simply who might be somewhat "cultic" in their devotion now or historically, but what groups might represent potential problems regarding personal or public safety. That is, groups that are potentially unsafe and/or destructive.

Psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton, who wrote the definitive book about thought reform (often called "brainwashing") also wrote a paper about cult formation. Lifton defined a cult as having the following three characteristics:

1. A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power.

2. A process [is in use] call[ed] coercive persuasion or thought reform.

3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.

thepea>"The Gnostic Movement has an authoritarian structure with authority claimed by Pritchard on the basis that he is a 'divine, awakened being' and the only living master. "

This is not a serious issue. There are at least a hundred 'masters' in India and other countries claiming the exact same thing. I spent most of my adult life in a cult that made the same claim. The real question is, 'what is the harm done?' I do not see it... no big deal.

thepea>"The structure of the movement is non-democratic"

So what? As I noted earlier, all 'democracy' does is assure that the organization will be mediocre, limited by the average standard of the average follower. I say, "No thanks".

thepea>"evidenced by people's reports of learning more about the darker practices the higher you rise in the ranks"

People's reports? Darker practices? This appears to have potential but the ambiguity just doesn't cut it. Exactly what 'practices' and how are they 'dark'? Enquireing minds want to know.

One of the most detailed stories here on this thread came from a contributor who basically got upset because he was turned down for a promotion within the organization. ?! He went on for pages and pages yet not one 'dark practice' was described.

Could someone please provide some specific detail of these Darker practices?

thepea>"you are penalised for all sorts of things and banned without a warning."

From my personal experience, I do not think that is true. One of my forum posts was removed and I was sent a "warning".

thepea>"There are no public meetings, no AGMs, no transparent minutes, no budget, no accountability, no one to question 'the master'"

Substitute 'the minister' and there are maybe a thousand churches in the USA alone that fit that description. Like any other church they have the right to operate privately.


The key question that I would like answered is, "How is the operation 'abusive'?"
Being disappointed after a period of months is not a good reason to consider a cult/religion dangerous. Inability to grasp or master arcane occult practices and subsequent failure is not 'abuse'. In fact, that aspect is something that I find particularly appealing. I like exacting standards and demanding criteria for advancement. Many cults string newbies along for years offering watered down, occult nursery school type instruction with guaranteed advancement for simply showing up and paying membership dues. (not my cup of tea but I see many thousands are happy as can be with such an arrangement).

rrm>"3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie."

THIS, is what I came here to determine.

So far there is nothing to indicate any such thing.

It appears that the Pritchards are living off donations... which is basically how nearly all religious leaders are paying the bills. What gives?... re: the 6 bedroom mansion may be a bit excessive but when you consider an office for Mark, one for Edith and a couple guest rooms... NOT unreasonable. Can we get more detail on square footage, maybe gold plated bath fixtures...that sort of thing?

There really seems to be a serious lack of any damning details here.

It's interesting what TypicalSeeker has admitted to here while defending the group.

1. "the Pritchards are living off donations" in a "6 bedroom mansion..."

2. He does not dispute that the Pritchard group "has an authoritarian structure with authority claimed by Pritchard on the basis that he is a 'divine, awakened being.'"

3. Does not dispute that the movement is "non-democratic."

These admission paint a rather negative picture of the group.

rrm>"These admission paint a rather negative picture of the group."

Negative?...or normal...do you hold this group to a higher standard than thousands of other churches? The 'authoritarian structure' that you harp on is NORMAL.

Besides... 6 bedrooms does not a mansion make... more detail must be provided for the claims to have any integrity. Before we downsized, I used to own and live in a 5 bdrm, three bath house and it was NOT a mansion by any stretch of the imagination.

Democratic? Are you serious?! Show me a truly democratic organization and I will show you a mediocre effort destined to go nowhere.


If this is how you determine that one cult among the countless cults out there gets a failing grade... this particular group passes with flying colors.


So far not one shred of evidence has been presented that would indicate that this group is abusive or destructive in any significant fashion.

As the saying goes... time to put up or shutup.

Are you up to the task?

Personally I would like to say that I am getting pretty tired of TypicalSeeker. This contributor like to belittle others experiences and concerns. Further they manipulate the information that is made available to them from different places. There is no attempt here to consider the actually implications of what is being said.

Yes Mark Pritchard is not running one of the Samael Aun Weor movements that is likely to have mass suicides. Not yet anyways, notice how they are building retreat centres. I would be concerned.

And yes many ministers are manipulative and cult like but why should two wrongs make a right? You will notice that there are even business that are brought up on this forum which are of concern.

"I like exacting standards and demanding criteria for advancement."

You keep missing what you are actually being told here. There is no failure on the part of people who leave. They have to leave because the eventually do not agree or because of a personal conflict pushes them enough to realize that "arcane occult practices". The stuff that is taught is really garbage compared to what is out there.

I have also had enough of TypicalSeeker asking for references for things that have already been provided. This shows me that they have clearly not read, everything that has been posted here. So why are they asking for more info? I seems most likely that they do not want more info, but simply wants to poke holes where there is no hole to be pointed out. In the future when TypicalSeeker fails to read something which has already been stated in this lengthy discussion I will simply point that out. Enough work has been done here on my part and others. I will not accept unjust criticism.

TypicalSeeker:

The overwhelming majority of Protestant churches, synagogues and other places of worship have democratically elected boards that serve fixed terms, denominational oversight, educational requirements for clergy and published budgets that detail salaries and expenses, etc.

Didn't you know that?

Your attempt to dismiss or ignore this doesn't change the facts.

Your responses on this board have inadvertently confirmed some of the inherent problems within the group you are attempting to defend regarding such checks and balances, which you have admit are absent.

But hopefully your rude and arrogant demeanor isn't typifcal (per your chosen moniker) of seekers within the group.

Again, if you continue along these lines you will be banned from posting on this message board.

rrm>"The overwhelming majority of Protestant churches,..."

Didn't I know that? No, I did not because I do not believe that is true. It is true for some of the large, crusty old boring churches but that is irrelevant because I was obviously referring to the "Rev. Goodpastor's First Church of the Nazerene" type operations.

Pritchard's operation has a strong internet presence and some oddball sexual teachings/practices that make him an easy target. But that is no excuse to single him out for the kind of treatment that gets dished out here. Seriously, to make these kinds of accusations without some sort of substantial evidence to back it up is lacking in any sort of ethical foundation, if you ask me.

I'll bet Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker had a 'democratic' program in place. Lotta good that did. Then there is the Maharishi with his fleet of limousines, the Bahgwan and his endless sex orgies... can we try and keep things in perspective here?

Six bedrooms? If you want to call that a mansion you have a little homework to do.

Finally, numerous warnings about things like my rude and arrogant demeanor have been repeated without any direct reference to exactly what in my posts can be accurately characterized in such fashion. Rude? no sir. Please cutnpaste the offending comment from my last few posts. Please do the same with the arrogant accusation. One regular poster here impugned my intelligence TWICE here and you said nothing. There is clearly a double standard going on. Just because I am asking for real facts I am viewed as threatening and self confidence is viewed as arrogance. I hope you can step back and try to view things a bit more objectively and be more fair in your treatment of me.

Notanti>"I am getting pretty tired of TypicalSeeker. This contributor like to belittle others experiences and concerns"

And again...more unsubstantiated accusations. I have 'belittled' no one's experiences. I have merely pointed out that simply attending a new age church for a while and not finding it to one's liking is no justifiable cause to go around intimating that it might be some sort of suicide cult!

Notanti>"Not yet anyways, notice how they are building retreat centres. I would be concerned. "

rrmoderator? Have you no fair standards at all?! This really is beyond the pale....

TypicalSeeker:

You are very close to being banned.

You are here only to defend the group and have repetitiously posted the same things over and over again.

This really isn't a dialog, but rather your monologue defending the group.

The overwhelming majority of Protestant churches do have democratic church government as do most synagogues. Your refusal to accept that fact is an example of your conduct here. When something disproves your position you then simply reject it.

Sorry but that doesn't change the facts.

But thanks again for your acknowledgment that the group has "some oddball sexual teachings/practices."

Frankly, IMO based upon your tacit admissions, anyone should be very wary of the group.