seekinglight:

Personal attacks are not allowed per the rules you agreed to before posting here.

Making allegations regarding "hatred" concerning people you don't know posting here is not only foolish, but against the rules.

You seem to be here to either be vague, or to accuse others.

Hi seeking light

you said

hatred vented towards them.

but i haven't seen any hatred vented towards a person, as in personally only

rather a hatred of lies that trouble people and take an all too real toll on their wellbeing, the mouthpiece through whom the lies come naturally enough are associated with said lies

for example the ever elusive justification for the teaching that non ejaculation improves you as a person

i personally hate to see people waste valuable time which rightly belongs to them on rank deception of the sort belzebuub and samael aun weor (mark and victor) push

do i hate people, no

do i get angry, yes

i get angry to think that a person can be defrauded of any part of their life by some junk that is unworthy of their attention

the more defrauded they are the angrier i get

but within reason

if someone steals part of your joy in life then you should get angry, like a previous poster was saying and i agree whole heartedly that when some cro-magnon bully has punched you full in the face for no reason then you damn well have a right to be angry at the pure injustice of it

contrary to what some liars would have you believe emotions are not always evil

and ego is not a dirty word (thank you skyhooks)

then you say this

Regardless of your negative experience, I do not believe it is justification for hatred.

the phrase

Regardless of your negative experience,

yes that is the key phrase

that is what the administration of the movement seems to be

regardless of my negative experience

well they damn well should regard it

it happened under that which they administer

abdication of personal responsibility is not an option

sufficed to say

i find the whole movement to be characterised by coming on so strong when hidden in the dark but somewhat weaker in the light of day

a movement that cannot justify it's own teaching or even answer a direct question

a movement that deletes embarassing posts rather than face the music

i say this movement is lacking in internal fortitude

i take no pleasure in this

but what else can i conclude from the evidence thus far

Apologies that my posting did not fit with the rules but my intention was to defend not to attack. This thread has many accusations against people whom the ones saying those things do not know personally and I was defending those accusations because I do know those people personally.

The reason I am here is not to accuse but because I wanted to also share my experience as an ex-member even though it is different from the experiences of others here - it doesn't seem right that people hear only from those who have a grievance and not from those who have benefited.

My reference to hatred is because I have read so many pages of anger and venting and plans to get at another person and I just wish there was not this feeling and that people could discuss things on a more balanced level.

But I will ensure to post within your rules as I would like to contribute to an open discussion.

Regardless of your negative experience, I do not believe it is justification for hatred.

You still have not indicated how the comments made are specific to anyone particular personal example.

Ok in regards to Jordan. How did he even know that I was posting here? Does he watch that thread all the time? If you are not in cult why would you be reading about what is said in a cult group just to prepare a defense for?

"but I doubt he would have meant you any harm or insult, at least from the five years I knew him I never saw him to be unkind to anyone. " Yeah he comes across as a really nice guy but why would he resort to guilt tripping like this

"In fact, we were very accommodating with you and tried to help as best as we could, even with your condition of having been depressed in the past and diagnosed with ADD. We had also attended to your request to run a particular course just for you when you asked us to. Just to mention another of many things, we gave you numerous lifts home from there as friends."

In fact there was no assistance with any disability other than the simple old fashion approach of denying that they exist and blaming the patient accept in this case the ridiculous notion of egos being involved was the explanation. Apparently we all have multiple personality disorders and didn't know it.

"We had also attended to your request to run a particular course just for you when you asked us to." Well this was only logical since I would be the only one participating in the course and after seeing how they have such little regard for students lifes where they cancel course just before they start it was really only far.

This is a clear case of guilt tripping and attempting to silence me. As a person note any assistance or special help I gave to them was far out weight by the demeaning work of attempting to get reasonable store clerk to take their cultish advertisements, or by the amount of money I donated by these people who unable to move forward with their lives because they were donated so much of their time to Pritchards cause. I hope it made their lives easier and not Pritchards efforts.

Further he makes this curious statement.

"I have decided to participate in this forum now to put things into context, because many people could become victims of your own misinterpretations and misconceptions, which wouldn't be fair to them."

If this was true than were did he go? After I showed that I was not going to back down and I was argue my points and show the errors and faults in his claim he never came back. Probably because he was not truthful in the statement above. He is so used to dealing with people who disagree with him on Gnosticweb were he has the full control of the situation that he can't handle the dynamics of an objective third party like Rick Ross moderating the discussion. I am also rather thankful for the support I got in said insident from Keir and Rick Ross the moderator.

"I wouldn’t want to get involved in who is right or wrong though, it is not for me to say," Well you should really mind your own business because you don't seem to know what you are talking about in this rather personal matter.

"but I doubt he would have meant you any harm" You obviously haven't heard how he talks about how the students of other Samael Aun Weor, including former friends of his are going to hell because they rejected the teachings of Mark Pritchard who has a fantasy about being the mythological character of Belzebuub, the lord of the flies (or decay).


In regards to your more general comment and "I did not indicate that I believe it is the students fault when the teachings are not helpful to them, I would not want to draw conclusions about others and spoke only of my own fault and failure."

This is what you actually said "It is like anything that requires effort – some are willing to put in that effort, others are not, some lose motivation, some don’t agree with the teaching or don’t want to abandon beliefs they hold to be true, and there are others, like me, who see the value of Gnosis and who want to change and improve themselves but who hit a stumbling block somewhere along the way."

That statement is not specific to you but clearly states that many others fail because they don't put in the effort. Also I find your use of the term Gnosis to describe what they teach to be rather offensive, as that is just a universal nonspecific term.

"It was seen as something quite normal for people to come and go and I didn’t think of those people that left as being negative or evil." That is not true according to the preachings of Pritchard.

"I understand very well and I sympathize when people here talk of feeling fear, depression, anxiety and so on. However what we feel and experience is based on our own psychology and how we face and deal with things. When I stopped being part of the organisation, I also felt depression and anxiety. My conscience hammered me because inside I knew through my personal experience that there was something of value in Gnosis and without using my life to try to change and improve myself I felt like I had nothing, that there was no meaning to things. This even turned into anger, but when I looked closely at myself I saw that these emotions were a reflection of my own failures.We try to blame things external for how we feel, at least I did, but I don’t want to spend my whole life blaming this person and that person for my own emotions and inner states. The purpose in Gnosis is not to blame the events or the others for their mistakes. The purpose is to learn about yourself, and improve every aspect of you. If we don’t do that we just let the negativity fester and feed and we go through life always looking to other people and things to explain our problems and never at ourselves. Every event is an opportunity for us to learn and change, this is a thing that I have learned. "

In the statement above you are victimizing yourself by taking all the blame for a heavily flawed and unaccountable program. You are also stating that anyone who fails to look into will have these difficulty. It is not the result of poorly developed and poorly researched techniques it is the students fault. You probably felt depression and anxiety when you left because you never actually dealt with your feelings but used the death and other techniques to simply bury feelings and emotions, because you thought they were egos. Our brains do not work that way.

"I am not interested in preaching or trying to convince people about the teachings, that is for each individual to decide."

Strange that you were doing exactly that in the above statement.

So sorry seekinglight you have not convinced me of anything. You seem to be a very confused before and you have not be cured of your indoctrination. All I can suggest is that you talk to someone about that.

You have made it very clear that, as Keir said, this thread is only for those ex-members who have something negative to express, and that therefore any perspective or experience which falls outside that category is not important or worth any consideration. Gnosis enabled me to break out of a life of depression, anxiety, drugs and eating disorders and to experience something much greater in life. So despite the fact that I am no longer part of it, I can only be thankful for what it gave me. Therefore, since I have no grievance to express I have no place here.

I wish you well.

Ok seekinglight, It appears that you continue to desire to make accusations and be vague so a response is necessary. I should thank for posting here as it makes it so much easier to demonstrate the problem with the Gnostic Movement when we have someone who supposedly has left but continues to show all the signs of indoctrination posting on the forum. Thank you so much.

"my intention was to defend not to attack. This thread has many accusations against people whom the ones saying those things do not know personally and I was defending those accusations because I do know those people personally."

No one has said anything about you, as we don't know or at least I assume I don't know you. Specifically who are defending who we do not know? Personally I have no beef with anyone in the movement, I hope they get out of it as soon as they can, including Jordan. There was nothing personal said about him until he attacked me personally. That is defense. Perhaps you wish to defend your own action of 8 years of parroting and helping to spread the lies of Mark Pritchard? You really don't have to, just stop spreading the cult speech and you will be fine in my book.

Perhaps you are speaking of Mark and Edith Pritchard. You mean to tell me that public figures should not be judge for their public actions? That is certainly a strange worldview. Mark actually states that he is a god, I think that deserves a lot of criticism. Why don't you?

"The reason I am here is not to accuse but because I wanted to also share my experience as an ex-member even though it is different from the experiences of others here - it doesn't seem right that people hear only from those who have a grievance and not from those who have benefited."

Yes I also had a good experience, until it started to be a bad experience. Good and bad are relative. A good experience does not make something true or healthy. This other part is funny you actually think that Gnosticweb and Bezlebuub.com and insufficient to spread the message and opinion of the other side of the argument? Is this forum someone closed to members and teachings of the Gnostic Movement to present at counter argument? What is being stated here is a counter argument to the dominant message.


"My reference to hatred is because I have read so many pages of anger and venting and plans to get at another person and I just wish there was not this feeling and that people could discuss things on a more balanced level."

Well for starters I think all of us here have mostly rejected the teaching that anger is an ego, of course it is associated with a great amount of negativity but it can also be a positive force and a force for liberation. Why do you thin Jesus gets angry in the Bible?

Please reference specific quotes were people have plans "to get at another person".

I am not aware of any such reference. I think you are either confused or spinning statements were myself or others have stated that they want to make it hard for the Gnostic Movement to operate. For me this difficulty separating the individual from the Movement comes from the very fanatical (refer to the actually meaning of that word not Marks dishonest interpretation) approach that members and teachers and many students take to the Gnostic Movement.

My goal is not to harm anyone involved in the movement but to help them to liberate themselves. I don't even have any negative desire for Mark or Edith Pritchard, unless it is found out that they did in fact commit crimes, with the lack of transparency that is quite possible. I hope that they get the mental help that they so desperately need.

"I would like to contribute to an open discussion."

Why don't you start participating in this discussion that is already quite open, unlike the way things work at The Gnostic Movement, on either one of their sites for that matter. I don't think Rick Ross has ever deleted a post.

Hi seekinglight

you wrote

I wish you well.

and i reciprocate

I wish you well.

good seeking to you

Seekinglight and all
I have been lurking on these forums for months now and communicating with select individuals via pm, however recent events have forced me to come out into the open as it were and raise a few points about what has been said recently, especially your view on the Gnostic Movement Seekinglight.

My experience within the movement has been relatively extensive and clearly not positive, or I would not be here. I am not going to say anything about said experience at the moment.

I would like to state that yes, antagonism has been directed at you on this thread. That is quite clear to all and no one is going to deny it. However, I do not think that anyone here needs to defend that antagonism, whether directed at yourself, Jordan or Mark/Edith Pritchard. If people have had a negative experience they have the right to express their thoughts and feelings about it. The fact that one individual (yourself) does not share that negative experience, does not make the experience any less valid. Understand?

Secondly, having read the entire thread multiple times, I have not seen any plans to 'get back' at Mark or Edith or the movement. I have seen anger expressed yes as well as sadness at what has been lost, but no threats, no "Oh my god, I want to kill them, how do we bring them down?" Simply put, people want a safe space to express their truth and see that (what they construe as) justice is done.

To understand this, you will need to break out of the TGM-derived viewpoint of feelings as 'egos' and need to be able to see that truth has multiple facets. This is clearly not the case at the moment.

Thirdly, a cult by it's very definition is defined as a secretive organisation, with a rigid belief system and hierachy and one that is based on the cult of the personality. Namely, members of the cult are told that the leader of the cult is the one true god, knows the only way, anyone who rejects him/her will fail. Beelzebub? 'Anyone who rejects a master of the white lodge is doomed to failure' etc etc. Any of this sound familiar? This is clearly why people are posting here, because this is the hidden structure of the movement within the 'onion peel' organisational structure and people who have experience of it, want to expose the inner layers to light.

I asked a few questions of you before, via 'notanantignostic'. You did not reply to any of them. Once again, I ask them.

"Seeker, can you explain why you left the movement then? You say it changed your life, that your experiences within it were nothing but positive and changed who you were. Why then, did you leave? What pushed you away from 'the work'?

Have you honestly never heard that people leave because they are influenced by their own egos or the black lodge? Can you give us one example where someone has left, has shared their reasons for leaving and had it accepted by the movement as genuine? Have the teachers/members/Beelzebub ever said "Yes, maybe this aspect of things could have been done differently, maybe we need to change things, maybe this was wrong"?

Do you or do you not hold the belief that orgasm will lead you to hell and cause spiritual failure and that orgasm is the apple referred to in Genesis? Have you learnt the practice of 'alchemy' within the movement and been told things like 'connecting more than once every 24 hours weakens the energies and is a crime against divine law', 'the duty of the man is to warm up the woman and the duty of the woman is to eliminate the egos that stop her from being aroused'? Have these beliefs been communicated to you by the teachers of the movement and Beelzebub's works?

Do you or do you not believe that egos (emotions) are external entities using your mind, body and thoughts to 'manifest'? Where have you acquired this belief from? Can you substantiate this belief by any scientific, psychological or spiritual study that is not 'personal experience' or derived from the works of Beelzebub, Samael or Rabolu?

Do you deny that posts and entire threads on the forums at Gnosticweb and Beelzebub's website are deleted, if their content is not entirely complimentary or in line with the views of the website? How do you explain free speech and learning within that context? You could argue that every organisation has an image to uphold, but there is a difference between maintaining a certain cohesive viewpoint and denying an individual the right to express free views.

Seeker, as an ex treasurer of the movement, can you explain how Mark lives then, if not off the donations of the movement? Do you deny that he and Edith have not worked for many years, or done anything to generate an income? Where do they live? What do they live on?

Can you explain where the money from all the fundraising drives go? There have been 2 recently, one on GW and one on Beelzebub, each requesting about $6000. What was that money used for? Where is the transparency?

Seeker, you have not left the movement, you are very much a part of it and with my knowledge of how the movement works, this is another ploy to discredit anyone who has left and garb that in the voice of truth, authority and 'do not blame external events but look at yourself instead'. I do not wish to debate this with you, because you cannot prove you have left and I cannot prove you have not.

All I will say is that lies, even when used for a 'spiritual' purpose, are still lies and still wrong, at a moral, ethical and spiritual level. If you know a tree by it's fruit, then my point is now proven."

I think these are important questions, questions that anyone who is involved with the movement should be asking. Sadly too few people are and when a few brave people do speak out, the movement stonewalls, denies, pushes blame back at those who have left and/or deletes threads.

I am tired of lies.

I want the truth, clear, simple answers to my clear, simple and direct questions. Can you offer me that? If your true intention is really to provide an alternative viewpoint to ex-members stories, answering my questions will go a lot further to doing that than more accusations of hatred or anger.

I too, wish you well.
Warm regards
ThePea

Meditation and self reflection / self discovery are definite paths to happiness, inner knowingness, and well being. But someone could have just plagerized these proven meditation techniques to lure people in. It is like giving out candy to present a positive disguise and lure people into their "inner circle".The first part of the Gnosticweb courses can indeed make people happy. But that is obviously not the intention of Gnosticweb. They use the happy feeling generated from peaceful meditation to try and convince people that the organization has good intentions. I would be fine accepting the information they give me in the beginning (even though it is plagarized from many different sources). I would leave everything else Gnosticweb gives me alone.It is only later, after the initial courses, that things become ominous.An organization may help you escape unhappy conditions in your life, but the price is too great.



Seeking light
If we want a more balanced and peaceful way of arguing, I will use simple examples:

The little mermaid wanted to become a human to be with the prince she loved. The evil sea witch had magical powers and could give her what she wanted initially. She could turn the mermaid into a human so that she could be with her prince. But the cost for this was the mermaid's voice. And if the mermaid failed to kiss the prince before the sun set, she would become property of the witch.
In the end, the sea witch's true intention was not to make the little mermaid happy, but to silence her so that she could sieze the throne and take over the ocean.

I heard Gnosticweb claiming that they could help you find things like "true love". What does this "true love" mean to them? An organization promoting "true love" would not say things like "the path to hell is lined with roses" or "anyone who rejects a divine master will never awaken".

I think the word "love" to Gnosticweb is strange. Belzebuub seems to alter its meaning so that it means something else.

"Love" to him might actually mean something like "total obedience to your master".



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2009 07:31PM by Free_955.

Quote
seekinglight
You have made it very clear that, as Keir said, this thread is only for those ex-members who have something negative to express, and that therefore any perspective or experience which falls outside that category is not important or worth any consideration. ....

At the same time pro Aun Weor sites and supporters block, drown out, dismiss dissenting opinions as not worthy of any consideration for those who do not agree with the teachings.
As stated befor its a rather typical tactic of these cultish groups to hijack threads, drown out dissenting voices and conduct P.R. stunts to make themselves look good.