Denying holocaust is a VERY serious crime in germany! Putting pieces together and go to a german judge could be a possible way to go. There has to be very good evidence (it seems to be like that) and it has to be put together in a certain way. I don't know if only a german can bring that to a judge. But I'm german. So...let's give it a try.

I would guess by her name that Eleonora Gozzini may be in Italy, but maybe not. She might be at the Desteni farm.

Approval for those posts on her Wordpress blog in which she denies the Holocaust has been expressed by several well-established Destonian bloggers – including Marlen Del Razo, Martijn de Graaf, Lindsay Craver and Ann Van den Broeck - so we can safely say that members of Desteni are generally Holocaust deniers. It's not surpirsing, really, considering Bernard Poolman was such a big fan of Adolf Hitler.

Wordpress Terms of Service state: "Automattic has the right (though not the obligation) to, in Automattic’s sole discretion (i) refuse or remove any content that, in Automattic’s reasonable opinion, violates any Automattic policy or is in any way harmful or objectionable... "

Automattic is the name of the company that runs Wordpress: [automattic.com]

So perhaps the guys at Automattic should be informed of Eleonora Gozzini's offensive Holocaust denial posts, as well as the approval of them by the other Destonian Wordpress bloggers...?

Here is page 111 of the pages that were lost from this thread since the domain name was changed. Some links might be out of date but links to this forum have been updated.

...............................................................................................................................................................................................

November 07, 2011 09:01PM
The Anticult
Date Added: 03/17/2006
Posts: 4558
Re: PRQ Inet KB, Desteni, Scientology, Anonymous, DoS, Visa

Desteni could have had trouble with their webhost due to their Hitler content, or some of the other junk like the pyramid schemes. So moving the server offshore is a way to deal with that.


Maybe some people will put together the evidence for the Desteni scamolas, and send them to Visa and Mastercard.
Whether its the pyramid schemes, or the Hitler content, or all of the other junk.

If a company is involved in questionable activities, Visa and Mastercard will revoke the merchant account, no matter who's name they put it in.
If there are lots of complaints about Desteni, like chargebacks or other problems, the accounts could be cancelled.

One assumes Desteni puts people on a automatic monthly deduction?
Where is all that money going?
Take a wild guess.

But if a person has been scammed by someone who uses Visa or Mastercard merchant account, you can usually get the payment cancelled by calling the credit card company.


November 07, 2011 09:47PM
truthbheard
Date Added: 10/31/2011
Posts: 14
Re: PRQ Inet KB, Desteni, Scientology, Anonymous, DoS, Visa

I find it difficult to follow why Bernard would have Desteni moved to PRQ Inet KB. Would this be so the members
can view the blogs and videos? Or the general public as well? I do remember Desteni being shut down on You Tube.
So am I to understand that now Bernard and Sunette are on PRQ Inet KB? I did go to Sandman's links and I read it
that this man 'on the run' has no qualms about who he hosts, he seems to be all for free speech no matter what.

I do think the idea of clogging up the money flow is a good one. Please contact me with any plans.

My "friend" is so caught up in this Desteni group, that I feel anything is worth trying at this point to salvage a very
good person.


November 08, 2011 08:22AM
corboy
Date Added: 06/19/2002
Posts: 4935
Re: Desteni

On a fey note, remember that wistful folk song, Where Have All the Flowers Gone?

Someone could write a song for a cult education awareness event and use
The Anticult's excellent point as an inspiration for a parody.

Quote:
Where is all that money going?
Take a wild gueseees.....




November 09, 2011 09:17AM
Sandman
Date Added: 06/12/2008
Posts: 295
PRQ Inet KB, DoS, desteni.org, YouTube copyright

I've been asked to to clarify this ... As it says here:
[[url=http://desteni.co.za/n/desteni-i-process-temporarily-moved-to-desteni-org-dip]desteni.co.za[/url]]
'To improve our online experience we’re transferring our domains and hosting to a more powerful and secure place'

Desteni are now using [[url=http://desteni.org/]desteni.org[/url]] (which re-directs to [[url=http://desteni.co.za/]desteni.co.za[/url]]) run from Swedish web host, PRQ Inet KB and registered under the name of Gottfrid Swartholm of Pirate Bay - the most notorious file-sharing website on the internet.

This could involve Desteni members accessing videos because they are downloading Poolman's videos from somewhere and uploading them to their own YouTube channels. It has nothing to do with the blogs which are hosted by various other companies.

It may be that the main reason Desteni employ the services of PRQ Inet KB is to protect against Denial of Service attacks, which are an illegal form of hacking to take down or delete websites. It could be for other reasons as well but PRQ Inet KB gives protection against DoS attacks which other web hosts are unable to provide. It could be because PRQ Inet KB offer to host sites with content other web hosts would reject.

Why is this significant? Because it shows that Desteni have closely affiliated themselves with a convicted criminal on the run from the law, Gottfrid Swartholm, as well as with the web host company he is associated with, PRQ Inet KB, which states that it supports freedom of speech and information, commerce and anonymity and privacy on the web -- all of which Desteni oppose.


November 09, 2011 03:09PM
concernedmom83
Date Added: 02/23/2011
Posts: 80
Re: PRQ Inet KB, DoS, desteni.org, YouTube copyright

Well another example of the untruths spoken by the desteni doctrine. One of their main concepts is
honesty. The fact that they have aligned themselves with none other than Gottfrid Swartholm, a
convicted criminal on the run by the law, just goes to show how these people will do anything to get
their non sensical message out. Hypocritical is too kind a word to use for bernard. But that's what he
is.

Another piece of this big ol' messy pie, I'd like to comment on is a post today about 'sharing' on the
destenicult forum. As we all know, sharing is a baaaad thing to do!!! You learned that as a child, your
mother said: "don't share that cookie with your sister or brother. Don't even try to share some any of
your clothes or toys! And forget sharing your jump rope at recess or share your book with a friend who
forgot his" You get the idea, I'm sure. The point is: it is inherrent in us as humans to 'help out' the next
guy. Granted, we cannot buy a home for everyone in Sudan, but together we can work to make their
governments be more responsible for the people they represent.

But that's not how one destenicult member sees it:

Wouldn't it make more sense to create a system that provided for all Equally and then we wouldn't need to concern ourselves with sharing because we would already be sharing by our very participation in an Equal System. Imagine, with everyone taken care of, we would be able to do more as individuals, because we would not have to concern ourselves with sharing!

Yes, if everyone were treated equally, the world would be perfect. The key word here is 'provided'. Now who is going to 'provide'
for all. Again destenicult and it's members think that they have cornered Equality and they haven't. We all work for equality. In our own ways. I still find it absolutely amazing and disgraceful that the "farm" is in SA, and probably within 20 miles are these people who you want the world to treat with "equality". Now what have any of you done. Do you leave that farm of yours at all. Oh I did see a picture of bernard at a coffee shop recently. Couldn't stop and help out a family and give them a hand? Sunette and Leila, it would be nice for you to help out a young mother and father, who need child care.

destenicult members, please look up hypocrit in the dictionary and you might find your leader and his group very similar.


November 09, 2011 03:11PM
concernedmom83
Date Added: 02/23/2011
Posts: 80
Re: Desteni

Well another example of the untruths spoken by the desteni doctrine. One of their main concepts is
honesty. The fact that they have aligned themselves with none other than Gottfrid Swartholm, a
convicted criminal on the run by the law, just goes to show how these people will do anything to get
their non sensical message out. Hypocritical is too kind a word to use for bernard. But that's what he
is.

Another piece of this big ol' messy pie, I'd like to comment on is a post today about 'sharing' on the
destenicult forum. As we all know, sharing is a baaaad thing to do!!! You learned that as a child, your
mother said: "don't share that cookie with your sister or brother. Don't even try to share some any of
your clothes or toys! And forget sharing your jump rope at recess or share your book with a friend who
forgot his" You get the idea, I'm sure. The point is: it is inherrent in us as humans to 'help out' the next
guy. Granted, we cannot buy a home for everyone in Sudan, but together we can work to make their
governments be more responsible for the people they represent.

But that's not how one destenicult member sees it:

Wouldn't it make more sense to create a system that provided for all Equally and then we wouldn't need to concern ourselves with sharing because we would already be sharing by our very participation in an Equal System. Imagine, with everyone taken care of, we would be able to do more as individuals, because we would not have to concern ourselves with sharing!

Yes, if everyone were treated equally, the world would be perfect. The key word here is 'provided'. Now who is going to 'provide'
for all. Again destenicult and it's members think that they have cornered Equality and they haven't. We all work for equality. In our own ways. I still find it absolutely amazing and disgraceful that the "farm" is in SA, and probably within 20 miles are these people who you want the world to treat with "equality". Now what have any of you done. Do you leave that farm of yours at all. Oh I did see a picture of bernard at a coffee shop recently. Couldn't stop and help out a family and give them a hand? Sunette and Leila, it would be nice for you to help out a young mother and father, who need child care.

destenicult members, please look up hypocrit in the dictionary and you might find your leader and his group very similar


November 09, 2011 10:42PM
The Anticult
Date Added: 03/17/2006
Posts: 4558
Re: Desteni = communism.

Poolman tries to get people to believe that he is selling his Equality system.
Its really just old fashioned corrupt communism.

So Poolman is going to enforce this Desteni Equality communism?
Poolman wants the state to enforce Equal Communism?
Those who don't want Desteni communism, get arrested, jailed, thrown into the Desteni Gulag?
Poolman is the new Stalin?

Of course, Poolman does not believe any of this Equality nonsense. Its just a ruse, to try to get idealistic young people to believe in Desteni.
Poolman wants to use the sham Equality to get them to give all their money to Desteni.

Then Poolman can be the king of the Desteni commune/farm.

So Desteni Equality is just a sham, to try and get the Desteni-kids to give Poolman all of their money.
Then Poolman has their money.

That's it.
Then Poolman can control what everyone does and says, and control all the assets of the Desteni commune/farm.


Perhaps the complaints against Desteni are reaching Visa and Mastercard, and the Desteni merchant account will be cancelled.

Perhaps the local authorities in South Africa have the Desteni Farm on their radar from all the complaints from foreign nationals about Desteni and what they are doing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2011 10:44PM by The Anticult.


November 10, 2011 05:15AM
Sandman
Date Added: 06/12/2008
Posts: 295
Re: Desteni

Quote:
concernedmom83
Granted, we cannot buy a home for everyone in Sudan, but together we can work to make their
governments be more responsible for the people they represent.

But that's not how one destenicult member sees it:

Wouldn't it make more sense to create a system that provided for all Equally and then we wouldn't need to concern ourselves with sharing because we would already be sharing by our very participation in an Equal System. Imagine, with everyone taken care of, we would be able to do more as individuals, because we would not have to concern ourselves with sharing!

Oh yeah, great, a world without sharing! Perfect. I mean, to hell with sharing. Sharing's like, capitalism ;P

I suppose that's an extension of the equal money philosophy where rather than concern yourself with problems of poverty, starvation and disease such as poverty-stricken orphans infected with the HIV virus squirming in your back yard in Pietermaritzburg, it is 'best for all' to make some cool promo videos with pictures of starving children and invite people from all round the world to buy a holiday at your farm where they can marvel at your 'fascinating' interdimensional portal routine.

No need to share your genius world poverty-solving plan with the local peasants. Best for a dignified life for all to only make it available at a price to some middle class monied suckers on the internet. Get them to forgive themselves for being pre-programmed by the capitalist money system and hand over all their money!

Check this for a laugh: [[url=http://equalmoney.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5979]equalmoney.org[/url]] -- 'bartering as a system will not be allowed'

Quote:
The Anticult
Of course, Poolman does not believe any of this Equality nonsense. Its just a ruse, to try to get idealistic young people to believe in Desteni.
Poolman wants to use the sham Equality to get them to give all their money to Desteni.

Exactly, Poolman is not serious about equal money system as a genuine political idea. With all his recent EMS FAQ videos they are so much of a bad joke, he's making a desperate bid to pander to the devoted few by making up bedtime stories for them about what everything would be like if Uncle Bernie ruled the world.

Quote:
The Anticult
Perhaps the complaints against Desteni are reaching Visa and Mastercard, and the Desteni merchant account will be cancelled.
Perhaps the local authorities in South Africa have the Desteni Farm on their radar from all the complaints from foreign nationals about Desteni and what they are doing.

That is worth looking into...



November 10, 2011 12:33PM
The Anticult
Date Added: 03/17/2006
Posts: 4558
Desteni Serfdom commune, and the criminal Guru Osho/Rajneesh

If by some accident, Poolman is ever able to get a medium size Desteni Commune going on his farm, like Poolman's other hero, the criminal cultleader Rajneesh/Osho, then there could be serious trouble.

This Equal money nonsense, is probably a version of what was used by guys like Rajneesh in their communes.
Its not meant to apply to society, just to the members in the commune.
Its just a device to control the people in the commune, and make sure the profits from the commune, go to the cult leader. The rest of the commune stay Equally Poor as the commune leader has fleets of Mercedes, like the criminal Guru Rajneesh/OSho

Poolman wants Desteni wants to set-up a commune, that carries out business and produces a profit, not for the members, but it goes to the Leader of course.
The commune members are just the workers bees, Desteni Serfs.

Desteni Serfdom.

But the problem is, that human's in the commune then have to be controlled, and punished when they break the Rules.
Then they start with the Desteni Snitches who report on infractions.
Desteni Police.
Then they start with punishing those who are not following the rules, with forced labor, re-education camps, suppression of speech, etc.

Like Joseph Stalin, where millions were killed. [[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin]en.wikipedia.org[/url]]

Its a recipe for abuse, sexual exploitation, financial exploitation, and ultimately violence. This has been seen time and time again.

In the case of Desteni, they are so incompetent, maybe they will never get a functioning commune going.
But if they do, with Poolman's fascist-communist and punitive mentality, there is going to be serious trouble sooner than later with the Desteni Serfdom farm.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2011 12:38PM by The Anticult.


November 10, 2011 11:04PM
truthbheard
Date Added: 10/31/2011
Posts: 14
Re: Desteni

At this time, I'd say Bernard Poolman isn't interested in having a commune setting on the farm. Unless
the commune members would be able to make money for Desteni. My "friend" wanted to go to stay for
an extended time on the farm, but was discouraged from doing so. "He" seemed to feel he would be
more useful here in our country to help the equal money system cause. So that said to me, that "he"
was more useful making money for Desteni. Of course when I said this to my "friend", it caused more
distance between us. My "friend" really believed the whole story about the ems. To the point that it just
wittled at our friendship. He was living for this group everyday. If Bernard Poolman could find a way to
make money there on the farm, he may like being the leader of a commune.
My "friend" is still here and I really want to try to help "him" see the light about Desteni. That is before
he takes off on a "vacation" to the farm. Some vacation!

I am researching ways to expose this group/cult. Some cults don't seem to be so into money, but Desteni
definitely is. That is what we have to convey to people and let them know what is going on at Desteni.

I know that some of the readers here have members in Desteni, I'm sure together we can get them back.

Here is page 112 of the pages that were lost from this thread since the domain name was changed. Some links might be out of date but links to this forum have been updated.

...............................................................................................................................................................................................

November 11, 2011 08:43AM
Sandman
Date Added: 06/12/2008
Posts: 295
Desteni I Process, GIN, Kevin Trudeau, scam, equal money, fraud

With Desteni, it's one scam leading to another. A new member of their forum asks about the Desteni view on Kevin Trudeau & GIN
[[url=http://desteni.co.za/intro-forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=1740]desteni.co.za[/url]]

Avery Williams [[url=http://www.youtube.com/user/Avery7098]www.youtube.com[/url]] replies that

I have met Kevin Trudeau personaly on several occations and have trained with him and I am a level 4 visionary member. I know he has a great desire to help this world and he is revealing what has helped him make billions of dollars in the present system . From his own lips has said he does not know every thing but he is highly teachable which he goes into great length to explain in the CD set "Your Wish is Your command." It is my intention to reach as high level with GIN and present the Desteni materials to Kevin and the council as I know they will be receptive and be open to present it to the GIN community. I believe that the materials in GIN sets the ground work for Desteni as well as providing highly effective training tools and systems for sales and marketing. Kevin himself in my opinion is a master marketer and has taken GIN into 159 countries in a period of less then two years with tens of thousands members. GIN is a very effective avenue to use as an entry level for people to eventually join the Desteni "I" process. I have had members from GIN joined the Desteni I process already and I have quite a few at the present time looking into the Desteni material and showing interests.

Kevin Trudeau with his Global Information Network (GIN) is a well-known fraud.

[[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Trudeau]en.wikipedia.org[/url]]
[[url=http://captainsml.hubpages.com/hub/Kevin-Trudeau-Fraud-or-Consumer-Advocate]captainsml.hubpages.com[/url]]
[[url=http://www.skepdic.com/trudeau.html]www.skepdic.com[/url]]

[http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?3,12465,12465]

extract from Wikipedia:


"The Money-Making Secrets “They” Don't Want You to Know About

Published in 2009, the book says it gives tools on how to use the Law of Attraction to manifest readers' desires. The book also says it contains key links to using the Law of Attraction that are missing in other publications. Among the claims made in the book's infomercial is Trudeau's assertion to have virtually flunked out of high school.[21] He also says he was "taken in" by a mysterious group called "The Brotherhood" that taught him the secrets that he is now widely announcing in his book. There is also an invitation at the conclusion of the series to join a "Global Information Network," claimed to be an exclusive group of "highly influential, affluent, and freedom-orientated people from various business, social and economic sectors" who offer advice to its members.[22] The group operates out of the country of Nevis and employs the Law of Attraction as its principal wealth generator, a concept regarded by most in the scientific community as at-best pseudoscience.[23][24]
[edit]
Your Wish Is Your Command

The Your Wish Is Your Command series claims to be an audio recording of a private two-day lecture which takes place at an undisclosed location in the Swiss Alps. The CD set claims to offer a "hidden key" to take complete control of one's life and learn how to manifest one's every personal and financial wishes. Trudeau claims the knowledge unveiled here will "program your brain to be a transmitter pulling into your life every desire you have."


November 11, 2011 01:15PM
concernedmom83
Date Added: 02/23/2011
Posts: 80
Re: Desteni I Process, GIN, Kevin Trudeau, scam, equal money, fraud

Don't all these scam artists sound alike! It's amazing. The mere fact that this man has
'served time' and partnered with his 'cellmate' on the outside to start up an MLM should
be a huge red flag. "undisclosed" location in the Swiss Alps...why do people fall for this
stuff. If you are going to take a course in anything legal and on the up and up, the company,
school, group would send you the 'address' of where it is. What is wrong with these people?
Avery seems to be very involved and has recruited members for destenicult.... now what
the heck does that tell any rationally thinking person!
I know that I sound rather condesending and I certainly don't mean to. I can see if one is
down on their luck, how a group like destenicult would be appealing, (well no I can't actually)
but once you see, read and hear all this stuff, don't you ask yourself if you're in the right place
to prosper for both you and the world (in destenicult's place).

I also have an observation. I just wanted to see if anyone sees it this way. There is destenicult
educational software being sold by Katie and Cameron. Well, now they seem to have written an
ebook on sex and sucess. Normal, right? It's an ebook that has 11 interviews with sunette. Now
granted I didnt purchase it so I don't know, but if I were looking for an educational software system
and instructor for my child, Katie and Cameron wouldn't be on my list after seeing this ebook.
It's unfortunate that no one will ever respond to any info requests. Then I'd know.


November 11, 2011 03:36PM
The Anticult
Date Added: 03/17/2006
Posts: 4558
Re: Desteni I Process, GIN, Kevin Trudeau, scam, equal money, fraud

As shown, Kevin Trudeau is a longtime professional scammer and conman, and has been at it for ages.
When he gets caught, he just changes the names around, and keeps going, hoping that the fines will be less than the profits. A totally ruthless con-artist.

What is sad, is that person has been totally conned by Kevin Trudeau and his scam rehash of The Secret.

The FTC has a series of pages on Kevin Trudeau, and of course, the stuff that makes it to the FTC is only a tiny portion of the entire scams being run.
Search the FTC website for a massive string of pages on Kevin Trudeau's illegal scams.

Desteni and Kevin Trudeau are the same thing, a moneymaking scam.

---------------FTC quote-----------
www.ftc.gov/opa/2009/01/trudeau.shtm
For Release: January 15, 2009
Judge Orders Kevin Trudeau to Pay More Than $37 Million for False Claims About Weight-Loss Book

A federal judge has ordered infomercial marketer Kevin Trudeau to pay more than $37 million for violating a 2004 stipulated order by misrepresenting the content of his book, “The Weight Loss Cure ‘They’ Don’t Want You to Know About.”

In August 2008, Judge Robert W. Gettleman of the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Illinois had ordered Trudeau to pay more than $5 million and banned him, for three years, from producing or publishing infomercials for products in which he has an interest. The ruling confirmed an earlier contempt finding, the second such finding against Trudeau in the past four years.

Urged by both the FTC and Trudeau to reconsider aspects of its August order, on November 4 Judge Gettleman amended the judgment to $37,616,161, the amount consumers paid in response to the deceptive infomercials. The judge also revised the three-year ban to prohibit Trudeau from “disseminating or assisting others in disseminating” any infomercial for any informational publication in which he has an interest. On December 11, the court denied Trudeau’s request to reconsider or stay this ruling.

The FTC filed its first lawsuit against Trudeau in 1998, charging him with making false and misleading claims in infomercials for products he claimed could cause significant weight loss and cure addictions to heroin, alcohol, and cigarettes, as well as enable users to achieve a photographic memory. A stipulated court order resolving that case barred Trudeau from making false claims for products in the future, ordered him to pay $500,000 in consumer redress, and established a $500,000 performance bond to ensure compliance....(cont'd)
---------------------


November 11, 2011 03:59PM
concernedmom83
Date Added: 02/23/2011
Posts: 80
Re: Desteni

Just an observation:
Both men, Kevin Trudeau and Bernard Poolman have acheived their notariaty
by taking advantage of those people who are emotionally and physically needy. It's not to say, that
either are 'dumb' guys. It's ashame that they have both gone from scam to scam throughout their
lives, taking advantage of people, rather than use their talent to better the world, (in destenicult's case anyway).
As the old saying goes: It all comes out in the wash.


November 14, 2011 12:51PM
truthbheard
Date Added: 10/31/2011
Posts: 14
Re: Desteni

I have been researching Desteni. That is all aspects of it. Their forum, their store, their you tube
video accounts, etc. Also, I have been researching those who are trying to get the truth out. There are
many who wish to uncover the veil of secrecy that Desteni seems to hold, along with it's members.
This seems to be such an unhealthy lifestyle and I can tell you I saw it take down my "friend".
I have tried to speak to members on Facebook, on their personal blogs with no response. It certainly
apprears that they are against any views other than there own.

I did find an interesting site [wiki.answers.com] at which anyone can go and there and add to it
if they please. It's a way of exposing Desteni for the deceitful people they (Bernard ) is. I think
it's certainly worth a try and I invite all hear who want to let the world know the truth about Desteni,
to join in.

Also, a very good site is [[url=http://www.destenicult.com/]www.Destenicult.com[/url]] , which is very informative.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2011 01:00PM by truthbheard.


November 17, 2011 11:14AM
concernedmom83
Date Added: 02/23/2011
Posts: 80
Re: Desteni

As you readers know, I keep an eye on the destenicult website always. Today, I was reading the
latest posts, and came across one by 'Valentin'. He seems to be a very nice guy, but so misguided.
This is part of his post:

At Desteni we are suggesting an Equal Money System where you will be obligated to work for only 4 years and then the system will provide you with all the things that you need until you die. This is possible because in current system which is based on debt, profit and scarcity, the products are made to break fast, thus it is estimated that up to 90% of all natural resources, energy and time consumption is due to need of perpetuating consumerism. In the EMS the products will be made to last long, there will be no competition, and you will need to work for only 4 years in order to keep the system functional.


I find it hard to believe that an adult would actually subscribe to this "equal money system", which is in itself so childlike.
The idea that everyone would have to work for 4 years, say from ages 20-24, then do what? I guess somehow destenicult
expects a check or money... oh I don't think this ems will have money, sorry.

Valentin didn't however, go on to mention how this plan will be implemented. What if I choose to: 'be a farmer, doctor,
artist, busdriver, police officer, etc for more than 4 years? Will I have this choice? What will I do from age 24 - my old age?
Valentin and bernard, you have GOT to explain the details if you expect the WORLD to jump on board!

I say it is inate in a person to want to work and be self sufficient. To feel as if they have worked towards a goal (ie: car, house,
college tuition for children, etc.). You at destenicult are assuming that 'WE THE PEOPLE' want to be taken care of, and I don't
think that the average person does. Even those who are living on $2.00/day want the opportunity to better themselves and provide for their families. There are ways to make it work Valentin, but not with the equal money system you describe.

Again, it is very unfortunate that destenicult will not let opposing views be posted to open up discussion. But they won't let us on. Their silly loss.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2011 11:19AM by concernedmom83.


November 18, 2011 01:52AM
The Anticult
Date Added: 03/17/2006
Posts: 4558
Re: Desteni, how to brainwash, manipulate and control people

Watching these sects and cults, you come to the conclusion that some human's can be trained and conditioned to literally believe ANYTHING.
They can be trained to believe other human's are lizards from another dimension, or that there is a UFO under the earth with aliens controlling the world.

Those who runs these cults know this very well.
They know many people can be trained to believe ANYTHING.

That is why they know not to just lie, but to tell a Big Lie, as then people might believe it.


If someone could photograph Poolman's secret bookshelf, you would find many books on covert persuasion, mind-control, brainwashing, and how to do this to people.
That is all Desteni is.
An exercise in group persuasion.

All the Desteni "content" is simply meant to distract their members, and keep them busy.
The Desteni 'content' is designed to not make sense and confuse their members.

Always remember, the "content" of these kind of sects is irrelevant.

Its like going to see a magician, and focusing on his pretty assistant, or the flashing lights and smoke. Those are all meant to distract your ATTENTION from the TRICK.


November 18, 2011 09:37AM
concernedmom83
Date Added: 02/23/2011
Posts: 80
Re: Desteni, how to brainwash, manipulate and control people

Excellent point The Anticult. I guess I get caught up in the rediculousness of it all, because I find myself
debating it very often 'in real time'.

Thanks for making the point, bernard certainly does know what he is doing, that we can both see loud and clear.


November 18, 2011 11:36PM
concernedmom83
Date Added: 02/23/2011
Posts: 80
Re: Desteni

First, let me say that I agree with 'The Anticult's' description of destenicult MO as a cult. This is just another example of it

Here again, is another post referring to what some would consider to be rather insulting, ignorant and off the wall post written on the destenicult forum, written by a member.

In the Equal Money System, the idea of 'God' will be something that someone may choose to participate in for sentimental purposes. The idea of 'God' will no longer have any influence on how any part of the system functions. The idea of 'God' will no longer be allowed to be used to manipulate people. It will be considered child abuse to teach one's children about the idea of 'God' - as this is a personal idea that one holds onto due to one's own fears, beliefs, and accepted self limitations. Attempting to brainwash your children to support your own fears and ideas and beliefs will no longer be allowed.

As I have stated before, I am a believer in God, so this particular post was most offensive to me.

The idea of 'God' will no longer be allowed to be used to manipulate people.

I think you have your manipulators mixed up. Your group's guru, boss or whatever you choose to call him is a dictionary description of manipulation. So is destenicult saying that in this ems, it's members will be forced to abandon God, if they believe in him? I mean you are talking the 'world' all 8 billon, correct?

Maybe you will tell us HOW this ems is going to be implemented. All of you keep tackling such unnecessary subjects in order to get yourself ready for the 'launch'. If I sound sarcastic, please know that I am being just that.

From what I have read alot of destenicult members have been (and still are I'm sure) believers in God. Why this subject? Because of morals and values, traits that bernard would just love to throw out of society.

So to sum up, again you are all way, way, way off track. You need some courses in strategic planning. Stay on point, don't keep going off track with self forgiveness. I guess by now you are so brainwashed, you believe all this stuff... for 2 days, see if you can just do normal day to day things, not preach to your family and friends, no computer (this is a big challenge, I know). No writing yourself out, etc. Just see how your 2 days go. And you can blog about it and let us know.


Finally, just think of it GOD WOULD BE CONSIDERED CHILD ABUSE!! If ever there was a cult mantra, this one takes the cake.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2011 11:40PM by concernedmom83.


November 24, 2011 02:09PM
vivian111
Date Added: 11/24/2011
Posts: 25
Re: Desteni

Dear concernedmom83, I am an ex-cult member of a cult with a relatively similar believe structure and behaviour as Desteni, and have spent the past year educating myself on cult psychology (which falls under social psychology) and personality disorders of cult leaders.

I'm afraid when it comes to destructive cults, South Africans are rather uninformed, because the problem isn't as prolific here as it is in the States for example

From Captive Hearts Captive Minds:

Quote:
In America today an estimated 5000 cults have affected over 10 million people. Whether their focus is religion, politics, therapy or self-improvement, cults exact an inestimable cost, both emotionally and financially, from those who join. Sensitively written by two former cult members, this book provides the hands-on help ex-cultists need to recover from manipulation and mind control.

Education is the only way to combat cults. I will share my most helpful sources with you.

The Cult Leader - Personality Disorders:

Firstly, to understand the poor psychological condition of the cult leader/s, one needs to have a good grasp on narcissism and psychopathology. Cult leaders are without exception all narcissists. Narcissitic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a poorly understood psychological disease. Psychopathology often enters the picture with cult leaders as well.

Narcissism is frequently misunderstood as excessive egotism. In fact, what distinguishes the narcissist is not the strength of their egos, but their weak sense of self, their thin attachment to any tradition or community, their inability to form lasting relationships, or to take comfort from the past. In a word, narcissists are uprooted persons. They are prone to exalted fantasies of fame and power because these help to firm up a chronically weak sense of self.

A great deal has been written about narcissism. See here.

The fraudulent money scams they're perpetrating might make Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go to Work a must read as well.

Also check out The Sociopath Next Door

The above reading is crucial for understanding what you are dealing with. There is no reasoning, rationalizing or talking sense with a malignant narcissist or sociopath.

The bizarre belief system and behaviour of the cult leader also make it likely that he is schizophrenic.

From Captive Hearts Captive Minds - Madeline Landau Tobias and Janja Lalich (p. 67):

Quote:
The Cult Leader as Psychopath

Glibness/Superficial charm

Glibness is a hallmark of psychopaths. They are able to use language effortlessly to beguile, confuse, and convince. They are captivating storytellers. They exude self-confidence and are able to spin a web that intrigues others and pulls them into the psychopath's life. Most of all, they are persuasive. Frequently they have the capacity to destroy their critics verbally or disarm them emotionally.

Manipulative and Cunning

Cult leaders do not recognize the individuality or rights of others, which makes all self-serving behaviors permissible. The hallmark of the psychopath is the psychopathic maneuver; which is essentially interpersonal manipulation "based on charm. The manipulator appears to be helpful, charming, even ingratiating or seductive, but is covertly hostile, domineering....The victim is perceived as an aggressor, competitor, or merely as an instrument to be used....The manipulation inevitably becomes the end-all and is no longer qualified by the reality principle." In other words, there are no checks on the psychopath's behavior - anything goes. The Psychopath divides the world into suckers, sinners, and himself. He discharges powerful feelings of terror and rage by dominating and humiliating his victims. He is particularly successful when, through an overlay of charm, he makes an ally of his victim - a process sometimes described as emotional vampirism or emotional terrorism. Examples of this type of manipulation are plentiful in the literature of Jonestown and other cultic groups. It is especially prevalent in the one-on-one cultic relationship, where there is direct involvement with the manipulator.

Grandiose Sense of Self

The cult leader enjoys tremendous feelings of entitlement. He believes everything is owed to him as a right. Preoccupied with his own fantasies, he must always be the center of attention. He presents himself as the "Ultimate One" enlightened, a vehicle of God, a genius, the leader of humankind, and sometimes even the most humble of humble. He has an insatiable need for adulation and attendance. His grandiosity may also be a defense against inner emptiness, depression, and a sense of insignificance. Paranoia often accompanies the grandiosity, reinforcing the isolation of the group and the need for protection against a perceived hostile environment. In this way, he creates an us-versus-them mentality.

Pathological Lying

Psychopaths lie coolly and easily, even when it is obvious they are being untruthful. It is almost impossible for them to be consistently truthful about either a major or minor issue. They lie for no apparent reason, even when it would seem easier and safer to tell the truth. This is sometimes called "crazy lying." Confronting their lies may provoke an unpredictably incense rage or simply a Buddha-like smile.

Another form of lying common among cult leaders is known as pseudologica fantastica, an extension of pathological lying. Leaders tend to create a complex belief system, often about their own powers and abilities, in which they themselves sometimes get caught up. "It is often difficult to determine whether the lies are an actual delusional distortion of reality or are expressed with the conscious or unconscious intent to deceive. These manipulators are rarely original thinkers. Plagiarists and thieves, they seldom credit the true originators of ideas, often co-opting authorship. They are extremely convincing, forceful in the expression of their views, and talented at passing lie detector tests. For them, objective truth does not exist. The only "truth" is whatever will best achieve the outcome that meets their needs. This type of opportunism is very difficult to understand for those who are not psychopaths. For this reason, followers are more apt to invent or go along with all kinds of explanations and rationales for apparent inconsistencies in behavior "I know my guru must have had a good reason for doing this." "He did it because he loves me even though it hurts."

The Christ Complex – Mara Sophia Ellen Weis R.O., ThD.D.


Cult Psychology:

Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults and Abusive Relationships

Cults in Our Midst: The Continuing Fight Against Their Hidden Menace

Captive Hearts, Captive Minds: Freedom and Recovery from Cults and Abusive Relationships

Combatting Cult Mind Control: The #1 Best-selling Guide to Protection, Rescue, and Recovery from Destructive Cults

Repairing The Soul After A Cult - Janja Lalich, Ph.D.

Brainwashing: The Science of Thought Control

Rick Ross – Warning Signs

The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power

Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism: A Study of Brainwashing in China

Cult Recovery 101 - video

Cult Recovery 201 - video

Robert Jay Lifton interviewed by Steve Hassan [See disclaimer concerning Steve Hassan below] July 13th 2011 - video


Social Psychology (optional):

Youtube: The Solomon Asch Conformity Experiment - 4:10 - Groupthink, conformity and suppression of dissent

Sway: The Irresistible Pull of Irrational Behavior

When Prophecy Fails: A Social and Psychological Study of a Modern Group That Predicted the Destruction of the World

Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts

On Being Certain: Believing You Are Right Even When You're Not

Terror management theory


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A few last very useful articles:

Inside the cult controversies: Recovery from abusive groups - Joe Szimhart

Razor's Edge Indeed: Cult behavior defined - Joe Szimhart

(Joe Szimhart is a good source on cult psychology.)

Traumatic Abuse in Cults: A Psychoanalytic Perspective - Daniel Shaw, C.S.W.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I did not read the entire thread, I just read a few of your posts. You are likely already familiar with some of the above sources.

I wish you all the best!

Disclaimer regarding Steve Hassan

The Ross Institute of New Jersey/May 2013

See [[url=http://www.culteducation.com/reference/general/general1529.html]www.culteducation.com[/url]]

The inclusion of news articles within the Ross Institute of New Jersey (RI) archives, which mention and/or quote Steven Hassan, in no way suggests that RI recommends Mr. Hassan or recognizes him in any way.

News articles that mention Steve Hassan have been archived for historical purposes only due to the information they contain about controversial groups, movements and/or leaders.

RI does not recommend Steven Hassan.

RI has received serious complaints about Steve Hassan concerning his fees. Mr. Hassan does not publicly disclose his fee schedule, but according to complaints Steve Hassan has charged fees varying from $250.00 per hour or $2,500.00 per day to $500.00 per hour or $5,000.00 per day. This does not include Mr. Hassan's expenses, which according to complaints can be quite substantial.

Steven Hassan has charged families tens of thousands of dollars and provided questionable results. One recent complaint cited total fees of almost $50,000.00. But this very expensive intervention effort ended in failure.

Dr. Cathleen Mann, who holds a doctorate in psychology and has been a licensed counselor in the state of Colorado since 1994 points out, "Nowhere does Hassan provide a base rate and/or any type or accepted statistical method defining his results..."

Steve Hassan has at times suggested to potential clients that they purchase a preliminary report based upon what he calls his "BITE" model. These "BITE reports" can potentially cost thousands of dollars.

See [[url=http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/corp/corpsearch/CorpSearchSummary.asp?ReadFromDB=True&UpdateAllowed=&FEIN=043488840]corp.sec.state.ma.us[/url]]

Steve Hassan runs a for-profit corporation called "Freedom of Mind." Mr. Hassan is listed as the corporate agent for that business as well as its president and treasurer.

RI does not recommend "Freedom of Mind" as a resource.

RI also does not list or recommend Steve Hassan's books.

To better understand why Mr. Hassan's books are not recommended by RI read this detailed review of his most recently self-published book titled "Freedom of Mind."

See [[url=http://www.cultnews.com/?p=2444]www.cultnews.com[/url]]

Steve Hassan's cult intervention methodology has historically raised concerns since its inception. The book "Recovery from Cults" (W.W. Norton & Co. pp. 174-175) edited by Dr. Michael Langone states the following:

"Calling his approach 'strategic intervention [sic] therapy,' Hassan (1988) stresses that, although he too tries to communicate a body of information to cultists and to help them think independently, he also does formal counseling. As with many humanistic counseling approaches, Hassan’s runs the risk of imposing clarity, however subtly, on the framework’s foundational ambiguity and thereby manipulating the client."

RI has also learned that Mr. Hassan has had dual-relationships with his counseling clients. That is, clients seeing Mr. Hassan for counseling may also do professional cult intervention work with him.

Professionals in the field of cultic studies have also expressed concerns regarding Steven Hassan's use of hypnosis and Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP).

Based upon complaints and the concerns expressed about Mr. Hassan RI does not recommend Steve Hassan for counseling, intervention work or any other form of professional consultation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2013 09:19AM by rrmoderator.

Here is page 114 of the pages that were lost from this thread since the domain name was changed. Some links might be out of date but links to this forum have been updated. Page 113 is missing.

...............................................................................................................................................................................................

November 27, 2011 08:05PM
The Anticult
Date Added: 03/17/2006
Posts: 4558
Re: Desteni, Adolf Hitler, Poolman, Visa, Equal Money

You can see here that Desteni is claiming to contact "Hitler" through a Desteni seance, and is publishing material claiming that Hitler is "God".
so VisaMC/Amex wants to sell stuff for Desteni, who is promoting that idea that Hitler is God, when contacted with a Desteni seance?

Of course this garbage was written by Desteni, its not "Hitler", Hitler is dead.
This garbage was written by some deranged coward who runs Desteni, who will not admit to writing this drivel. So he claims is channeled during a seance.
He does that to avoid personal responsibility.
The guy who runs Desteni, who wrote this garbage, is too cowardly to admit it.
So he hides behind a fake portal, and a fake front-woman.

Don't let Desteni cover this garbage up by removing it from public view.
The public has a right to know what Desteni is really up to.
The plan outlined below, is the deranged phantasy of the guy running Desteni.

One assumes that this kind of garbage about "Hitler" is illegal in Germany?



------------QUOTE EXCERPT FOR RESEARCH AND EDUCATION-----------------------


Hitler : Part 1 - Experience of life on earth

Transcribed and typed by Hitler through the interdimensional portal

Date : 00/03/2007




Index of Bookmarks


• I AM GOD

• I, Hitler – taking the place of God on Earth

• My encounter with World Systems

• My Armour against World Systems

• Who is this God whom has forsaken us?

• Armour as Purpose



• I AM BECOMING

• How I see systems and demons

• Finding the reason for the existence of the creatures I encountered

• The conclusion/answer to what I found

• Finding a directive outcome to the conclusion



• LOVE, SEX, MONEY – A SYSTEMATIC SPECTACLE



• MY OBSERVATIONS AND PERSPECTIVES OF THE WORLD



• HOW I AM STANDING UP

• Personal experience with demons

• How I will destroy the demons



• WORDS TO MY PEOPLE

• How I started

• The only choice that existed in my world

• The path I walked

• OBSERVING

• Religious observation

• The conclusion to the observations



PART 1 - I am God



"I Hitler – taking the place of God on Earth

I am surveying the incompetence of humanity – humans are sheep who needs, desires and wants a leader to direct them in life to tell them exactly what to do. You have no purpose without someone standing on the stage of the world – taking over all that you have, your freedom, what you are and telling you how to live.

Follow me, you sheep, who can't think for yourselves – I will think for you. You who have sold yourselves to me you will become my worshippers as I have the answer to which you seek. I have your lives in the palm of my hand – follow me and I will show you what is possible if you dare to stand with me. I am here to answer this call, as you have given me the opportunity to stand as a leader for all in my beloved country.

I am ambitious, intolerable to the circumstances of the stature of this country. I desire purpose and I am giving myself a purpose. I am the leader, the god of this country. I will become as God for my people and so it will be. I will transcend God as God has given up on his people – I will not give up on my people.

I will have to take over most of the land and countries that stretch far and beyond us, to position myself to save all from the imperviousness of existence on this Godforsaken planet and country.

I declare now – that I will show God and prove to all, that he does not care, He laughs in the destruction and squealing of pain and hunger and sickness that all endure on the planet earth. He has done nothing of worth to be considered respectable to praise. I will walk on this earth with each step, each placement of my foot on the ground, the stones and earth trembling on the ground I walk. I will shake the foundations of this world with a wrath unknown to mankind so all may see the might of me, Hitler, until they fall. I will rebuild this country and so will you, my sheep, my people, rebuild the world. I will be the power of this world, I will set forth a movement in my name and thus I will live for eternity on this planet earth.

My sheep, my people will have an earth to live on which is totally devoid of God. The people who follow me will be the power of this planet, as I will create not only followers, but I will create myself in each being on this planet called earth. I will call my disciples, a thousand fold more than what God's son gathered to start the revolution of Christianity. I will kill all Christians – all that believe in God. All will be as I am, will become who I am and walk over the creation and make it all my own through my worshippers, my followers.

I am the law – my law will be your Bible to which you must live accordingly. Only through following my direction and my words will I be able to continue my plan for the future of the world and I as you will live into eternity here on earth – no God. I will be god on earth into eternity – watch and see.

I first have to make my stand here on earth – I will gather my disciples and those who choose to walk with me as me, who I will create in my name – will be safe. All of earth will be yours. The rest who do not follow me and who stand in my way, I am destroying, you will not be part of my world as all that will exist on earth is who I am. I will show to all the impossibility of trusting God – that only I am able to be trusted. Trust me and you will see in my name what is possible and what has been kept from you through the following of the words of God. God's words are empty, empty words lead to nothing. Hear my words and watch my deeds, watch what I stand for and how I reveal to all what you can become. You will become as me, standing for eternity on earth. My name will sound through countries, through the planet through existence – I am here to show you as an example of what is possible.

I am the power each one holds within them, I am the power of this world, as I will start with a country and spread myself through many so. Like the Holy Spirit of God, I will through my followers, worshippers and disciples permeate through your homes, through your lands and through your countries and kill not only the first born sons – but those who refuse to follow me.

You will and you must follow me – if you do not, you will experience my doing and my hand. I do not have time for warnings – I will come like the thief in the night, unexpected, unannounced and change your reality right in front of your eyes.

I will stand as God on earth and set my people free, if God could do it – so am I able to do it.

He has not done anything here on earth or in my country or for me – prayer is useless, empty words. I will use that which already exists on earth and in my country to build an empire to show the power of standing as a god on earth. I have already a trinity like the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. My followers, worshippers and disciples, will stand as me and do my work, even after I have gone. Not even death can stop me – not even God can stop me. God has not been here and will never be here – I am using his words as an example to show all the power of mankind. I will demonstrate the power of one to change the course of history and therefore the future.

You have been made to become my followers, I will lead you out of enslavement from that which you call a country and show you how it's supposed to be.

I do not accept the way of existence as all others accept it to be. The poverty and hunger controlled through a religious establishment and movement cloaked as a government with a bunch of monkeys working together trying to gain control over me and my people. They are no more than a monkey – brainless idiots who do not know what it means to live in starvation with nothing of value and no purpose in life. I do not accept and will not allow the poverty, the starvation or being told what to do by a system, a government put together by many who cannot stand alone and think for themselves. Who needs a system to maintain control of others who they fear? Those of stature in high places fear those who walk beneath them and need an outer source, a system to lead them. When something goes wrong through the insert of the system, the system is blamed and not those behind the creation of a system. I will stand beyond a system. I will be the system that governs mankind. I will be the minds, the thoughts of the country and the people. I do not need the system as my power is tenfold that of a requirement of a government. I will stand in all high places of stature. I will become stature. This is my creed – I am the world – I am the people – I am the mind of the people, one mind, one country, one person existing in all into eternity.

I will not stop. I am not stopping for anyone or anything. Your cries for not following me must be understood that you have brought this upon yourself and will fall on deafening ears. Love, my love will be shown as all that follows me who is walking as me with me to take control of our heritage, our world, our country, our people.

This is not God's creation. This is my creation as it will be yours in time to come. First I have to make sure that I have become the ground you walk on, the money in your pockets and the food on your table, when I become the opportunity in your lives to carry forth my way. My way is and will be the only way – I stop at nothing. Stopping is a weakness. You will find no weakness in me – I do not know of the word weakness. I am the beast that will destroy all the ways of the world and of countries that exist that are creating slavery, poverty and starvation for my people.

The mindless no-thinkers men of highest position who hide their fear of the people behind an establishment of a government system. A government is a system with people especially men who sit on their special chairs and talk for a system. The systems are in control of you – the men are the speakers and the thinkers standing as a system. I will destroy the systems so that they do not exist anymore – I am setting you free – I am taking back my place on earth and in my country.

I have no fear – fear is impossible – fear does not exist. Fear has been created through the belief of the control of a system through regulations and laws placed down by a system. How dare a system control me, how dare a system direct me! I am disgusted by myself for such allowance. A system with no life – no mind – I will not be a slave of a system. I refuse. I will eliminate this lifeless, brainless no-thinking system which makes a slave of me, which controls me, that creates starvation where only some selected few are stinking rich with all the money and the others must scavenge the rubbish to gather some food. Only a lifeless system will do such horrifying things to people and I am taking God's place on earth, starting in my country, to bring all to equal amounts of money, ways of income and food. Only a system would regard and take into consideration some more than others. All will be equal in my eyes in time to come.

How can God have left his people in the hands of a system? God is not here on earth or in my country. He has forsaken us, forgotten, left, we have become of no value to Him. I am the bastard who will give my hand to all who will take it. With my hand I will lead the way as an example of who and what you must become to set yourself free from being a slave to a worthless system.

Now hear me clearly – I am erasing from my existence all that is of systems, which stand in the name of systems. And if you do not follow me, you will experience and bring unto yourself the wrath of my hand. I have seen what to do since I have been the youngest of age. My infiltration within the country's system will be done so fast that it's unexpected. All will respect me and all will do as I say.

With my words I will manipulate and do what is necessary to make sure my work is done as what I have set forth to do. If you choose not to follow me – I will give you a choice, I will present to you a choice to follow me. You have one chance. If you even waver for a moment in the decision to follow me – go, leave, you are not invited to be lead by me, to become me, to secure a promised land, a promised existence.

I do not waver; I am a man that does not think; I act immediately, no fear, no doubt and no uncertainty. I call upon all those who choose to follow me as you have already before I came I decided to become who I am.

The rest of you, you are the essence of the worth of a system, defined through not following my way, you are making a statement that you are of the systems that govern my people, my land, my country, my world. You are saying that you are taking the side of the system; I will show you that there will be no existence of any system in my creation. Those systems belong in hell and I will hunt you to the ground, you cannot hide and so I will send you through the ground to the depths of hell.

I will create hell on earth – I will make sure you who are systems experience hell. As I am, Hitler, all that exist, I will stand as heaven and hell, as God and Lucifer. I will create both here on earth, on my creation. I am not limited to that of who God is – or limited to that of who Lucifer is. I will stand as both and I will show you that I am more powerful than both. I will make sure the systems suffer tenfold more that my people as I have suffered under the hands of the systems.

The systems hands were the laws ingrained and followed. There will be only one hand, one law; it will be me, my words and my actions. The suffering, the absolute suffering, the hell and damnation which I will present to the people who try stand as systems, in the name of systems, will be an example to others of what I will accept and what I will not accept. I will allow no chance for the existence of any system. No system has a place in my promised land. Systems are gutless, sickening, disgusting, worthless vermin. Your death - the followers of systems - will be the representation of the killing of the systems. I hate you; you must be killed and removed off the face of the earth. Your end will be death, I will make sure that you suffer before you die to such extremities that you will not want to carry on with life even in the afterlife. You will ask mercy, you will ask to be killed to be murdered. And so it will be done. You will starve as my people have starved. I will make you starve to the brink of death. Death by starvation and pain. Systems hear me – I am coming for you and I will not stop until all that you are and all that you have created is diminished, until only I remain. I will do to you tenfold what you have done to me as well as my people. To show and make a final stand of what I will allow and what I will not allow in my Promised Land.

This is my promise and agreement with myself – I stand alone as I know no-one and nothing can be trusted as all have fallen under the hands of systems. Only a selected few I know I can trust – and this is those that allow themselves to be lead by me. You will only have my trust when you stand as me, as my actions and as my words and will do what is necessary to be done.

Have no consideration for any people who want to be of systems. They must cease to exist – they must not be visible in front of your eyes as they will not be looked upon my eyes. They will not be visible.

I will stand into eternity, as I will be in all and of all, the country the world and my people. I will permeate through all existence on earth. I will forever more exist within you as you, all of you. There will not be one part of you where I am not and so I will walk with you as you always to create and stand as the Promised Land where we are all free of systems. I declare the ground I walk upon as holy ground, where only those walking as me, with me, may tread upon.

All those who are of systems will be hunted down like scavengers; will experience becoming scavengers as I and my people have when looking for food in the rubbish. You will become the scavengers and the rubbish of the land and will be treated as such. I have no mercy. I will become Lucifer, I will become that which you fear the most, and I will haunt you in your dreams and in your sleep. You will no longer be safe anywhere – I will make sure of this. Constant fear will become your new companion for a moment – your death is inevitable and no-one will dare stop me. For they already know – even if they try, I will transcend death and I will go to the ends of time and hunt them down until their non-existent – non-present in all of existence.

Understand my view on systems. They are not even worth only being killed through the shot of a weapon – they must cower in the pain that I will inflict upon them as I and my people for so long have suffered through the infliction of pain by the systems. I am putting an end to the systems. This must be clear by now. I have had ENOUGH!

The time has come and I am grasping the opportunity that is at hand – which I am giving to myself and to all that follow me. I will risk everything to make sure that systems cease to exist. I am taking back what is mine and so will all once I am done. I do not allow myself to feel anything for the systems, I will become as cold as they have been towards me and to my people, and I will become their greatest fear, their worst enemy. I am making sure of this. I want them to become cowards, I want them to hide for then I know my existence is perfect. What I do, is as I have set forth and intended it to be...."

----------------Desteni UNQUOTE....----------------
------------QUOTE EXCERPT FOR RESEARCH AND EDUCATION-----------------------



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2011 08:08PM by The Anticult.


November 27, 2011 08:25PM
The Anticult
Date Added: 03/17/2006
Posts: 4558
Re: Desteni, Adolf Hitler, Poolman, Visa, Equal Money

There seems to be several hundred typed pages of Desteni Hitler material.
Of course, all of that was written by the guy running Desteni, who has some kind of delusion that he is the reincarnation of Hitler, or something.
Whoever runs Desteni, wrote all the Hitler drivel, and has some kind of deranged phantasy that he is the New Hitler.

Who is going to sit down and write hundreds of pages of this junk, unless they really believe on some level that they are Hitler reincarnated?
It was not channeled of course, it was written by the guy running Desteni, and then faked.
But the mentality of the guy running Desteni, who wrote that garbage, is beyond extremely disturbing.

How long before Desteni has that Hitler material removed from the internet archive?
Why is the guy running Desteni hiding his writing like a coward, behind a fake channeling scam?

Why doesn't he just admit he is a type of New Age Neo-Nazi?
Why hide and conceal his beliefs like a coward, behind a fake portal, to try and trick people?

Its because he believes that humans are Sheeple, and must be lied to.
That is why Desteni FEARS THE TRUTH and fear people who tell the truth about Desteni.


November 27, 2011 08:44PM
The Anticult
Date Added: 03/17/2006
Posts: 4558
Re: Desteni, Adolf Hitler, Poolman, Visa, Equal Money

This fake Hitler crap, is some of the most vile material in any cult these days.
Its about "programming".
Followers of Desteni who read that junk, start to believe it, and then transfer those impulses onto Desteni.
Basically, each time it says Hitler, that means "Desteni" and the guy who runs Desteni.
Transference using indirect inference.
The direct transference happens later, as people are given Orders and Commands to follow from Desteni.


Since Desteni has claimed that junk was "transcribed and typed by Hitler"
then anyone else could also hold a fake-seance, and then claim Hitler's afterlife Agent, said it was ok to repost all of that Desteni Hitler junk on the internet, so the public can read what Desteni is really all about.


.....zzzzzzzzzzzz........There is word coming in now from the inter-dimensional portal...that all words that were typed and transcribed by the fake- portal, are now public domain. Since they are public domain and from another dimension, that means they are not of this world, and can then be cross-posted all over the internets in many dimensions, including planet earth.
Because how is "Hitler" going to show up to claim his writing royalties?
No, Hitler is dead.
So all of these fake Hitler writings are public domain.


All of these fake Hitler writings could also be sent to every single Neo-Nazi-watch organization on the planet, so they can enter them into their databases.


November 27, 2011 08:56PM
The Anticult
Date Added: 03/17/2006
Posts: 4558
Re: Desteni, Adolf Hitler, Poolman, Visa, Equal Money, Neo-Nazi cult

In light of the hundreds of pages of Desteni Hitler material, Desteni should in fact be classified as a type of Neo-Nazi group.
It should be listed on Neo-Nazi watch websites and databases.

Those sites just have not been sent the full text of the Desteni Hitler propaganda.
If Neo-Nazi watch websites were sent the entire Desteni Hitler archive, they would probably classify Desteni as a form of Neo-Nazi group.


November 28, 2011 03:26AM
The Anticult
Date Added: 03/17/2006
Posts: 4558
Re: Desteni, Adolf Hitler, Poolman, Visa, Equal Money, Neo-Nazi cult

Haven't been keeping up with Desteni current events, but Desteni is in trouble.
Kicked off youtube, pushed off their webhost.
Desteni is on the ropes.

If they can get kicked off Visa/Amex/MC then they are done.

Poolman made so many mistakes, its only the first cult he started, that anyone knows of.
Expect them to rebrand the entire scam, come up with a new name, a new face, and try again.

Yes Desteni will still harm and exploit some vulnerable people.
But losing youtube was a huge blow to the Desteni scam.


November 28, 2011 04:34AM
Sandman
Date Added: 06/12/2008
Posts: 295
Desteni, Hitler, neo-Nazi cult, Gottfrid Swartholm, Pirate Bay

The previous Desteni server, Hetzner.co.za responded to complaints received as to Desteni Hitler material and their MLM scam. (see this post: [[url=http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?12,62042,104371#msg-104371]forum.culteducation.com[/url]] ) At the same time they got thrown off YouTube and Vimeo. Then Desteni changed servers, recently opening an account under the name of convicted criminal, Gottfrid Swartholm of the notorious Pirate Bay. At the same time they removed all the Desteni Hitler written material from the site. Desteni web content is now accessed at desteni.org hosted by [[url=http://prq.se/]prq.se[/url]] in Sweden.


On their wiki page Desteni Criticism they say something about why they removed their articles on Hitler...
[[url=http://wiki.destonians.com/Desteni_Criticism]wiki.destonians.com[/url]]

Q: Apparently you are quite a fan of Hitler? Why? Q: Is Desteni Neo-Nazi?

A: There are people that misunderstood a series of articles published on the Desteni website where a perspective and an attempt for research into how a person such as Adolf Hilter thinks and perceives his world was made. According to this feedback we removed these articles and we might re-publish them later if we’re satisfied that we’re conveying the research in such a way that it is not misunderstood.


On another of their wiki pages Rick Ross - Internet Bullying and Bash-Boarding they write about this forum:

Because Desteni points out the deception within reality and that we will not stop until we have implemented a system of Equality that stops all greed based decisions, the members saw this as a form of 'new world order' and 'totalitarianism' and Nazism' and therefore = we are a cult. Because we had interdimensional communication with Adolph Hitler in the afterlife, and showed his ability to self forgive and his ability to comprehend who he was on earth and why he did what he did, this was seen as sinister and a taboo and therefore = we are a cult.

http://wiki.destonians.com/Scams_Abusing_the_Desteni_name


Another text that was originally published at http://desteni.co.za/a/bernard-poolman-hitler-and-forgiveness but has been removed reads as follows:


Hitler and Forgiveness
Written by Bernard Poolman

Hitler is the example we use for evil in this world. Our governments use it
to place pictures of horror in our minds. Now Hitler is back. He is challenging
each one of us. How? Read his story. Unconditionally he is presenting all his
experiences as Hitler and the consequences he faced. He shows that through this
all he realized himself. He realised forgiveness. He realized that he was but
lost for a moment. The greatest challenge for each human is this? If Hitler is
able to find forgiveness, what about you? Who are you? You are not as lost as
Hitler. You actually despise and judge Hitler. But really, you are despising and
judging yourself. What Hitler is representing is his story as unprecedented in
this world, crossing all divides to assist each human being in stopping,
forgiving and correcting reality. Hitler is each one of us. What we have become.
What we have allowed. What we are becoming if we do not stop.

NOW – NO MORE. Hear me. This is it. Man is presented this last opportunity
to stop. Those that do, may enter peace. Those that don't, death will be the
director. The after death experience is now as follows; Each being is placed in
a cocoon of your self created reality throughout all existence and you must face
it alone into infinity if necessary. This could be equated to the 40 years in
the desert of the Israelites/Is real lights. Only obsolete total rebirth as
equal and one as the Image and the Likeness of God will allow self to
participate in creation again. This is the last life of each being on earth.
Heaven has been in this process for some time. All the many Mansions have become
one till this is done.

Hitler is presenting this experience as a help, as a gift. Unwrap yourself,
forgive yourself. Ask Hitler questions. Ask Jesus, as God as yourself to guide
you. Not the God of words and believes. Look at creation. Who are you in
creation? Do you have any power but in yourself? Abuse will stop. In the years
to come there will come, there will be a weeping and a gnashing of teeth. Hear
Hitler. He has been here on earth. He has been a demon. He forgave himself. He
saw and sees who you really are. We, as all that has understood themselves, walk
with you, but you must set yourself free from your own enslavement. Yes – you
enslaved yourself – accept that! By your own power you enslaved yourself. By
your own power you will set yourself free.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


There's no question about it: Bernard Poolman, the Desteni group and the Destonians view Adolf Hitler as a veritable god of self-forgiveness.

Visa, Mastercard, Diners Club International and Discover may be interested to know all this. The Desteni.org web host [[url=http://prq.se/]prq.se[/url]] may also be interested to know exactly what kind of a cult they are hosting: [[url=http://prq.se/?p=contact&intl=1]prq.se[/url]]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2011 04:39AM by Sandman.


November 28, 2011 08:46AM
Stoic
Date Added: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1953
Re: Desteni

Bernard Poolman picked up this garbage from the Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, filtered it through South Africa's very troubled relationship with the indigenous peoples of Africa, (racial hatred, apartheid, the white man's burden, 'manifest destiny,' slavery and just plain exploitation of the masses) and then Bernard had some psychotic revelation that he is destined to be the meisterfuhrer of his very own pyramid scam.
Desteni is born.

Hitler died like dog, hiding in an underground bunker when he was unable to keep his delusions going any longer because Zhukov and his Russians were only streets away and destroying everything Teutonic they came across. They had a lot of ground to make up, as anyone who knows about the war on the Eastern Front will understand.

War is ugly and there's no forgiveness this side of the grave---and we are all on this side of the grave until, like Hitler, we're not.

'Forgiveness is mine, saith the Lord' and I, for one, am happy to leave it--along with all the other after-life stuff---- in his capable hands.

But this life, while we still breathe and can put two and two together, is different.
Its human nature, innit?---even Bernard, at his most psychotic, can't escape that one. Look what happened to his mentor, Rajneesh/Osho, for all his brilliant intellect.

Bernard's quite thick really, stupid but very dangerous to vulnerable others. I think he just struck lucky on this one.


Here's some nice, stirring soundtrack, although I prefer the bagpipe version myself:

[[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqeitdH5FX0&hd=1]www.youtube.com[/url]]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2011 09:11AM by Stoic.


November 28, 2011 10:39AM
corboy
Date Added: 06/19/2002
Posts: 4935
Re: Desteni

The Anticult wrote

Quote:
Haven't been keeping up with Desteni current events, but Desteni is in trouble.
Kicked off youtube, pushed off their webhost.
Desteni is on the ropes.

If they can get kicked off Visa/Amex/MC then they are done.


Add Paypal to the list.

Stoic has ID'd a very interesting similarity between Rajneesh (now renamed Osho by devotees)

Rajneesh not only had repugnant views about Hitler but...note this readers...he did rambling talks that were endless streams of verbal spew.

Confusion induction.

And..he liked watching humans as toys in various alleged sexual therapy exercises.

Gotta dare wonder. Very many people on the Hippie Trail made a stop at Pune, where Rajneesh had his compound. If he didnt mind Hitler, perhaps people from South Africa would have found a refreshing freedom from condemnation.

Now...hmm. Look how the terms apartheid come up in the old codger's speeches.

Here, after Rajneesh was kicked out of several countries following the attempted salmonella poisoning incident in Oregon, a devotee and the guru exchange questions.

[[url=http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:aeJD91Jfu-oJ:[www.osho.com]]webcache.googleusercontent.com[/url]]

Quote:
Osho (A devotee asks),
What to say of the governments and the religions…the idiocy that even the intelligentsia is displaying in misunderstanding you is frightening. How can mankind misbehave in this way with its own highest flower? Is its soul dead? Isn’t the ugly behavior that has been meted out to you over the last ten months a kind of apartheid on an international level that is even worse than the apartheid in South Africa?
Would you please like to say something about this?

(When one considers that this dialog took place in the 1980s and the horrors of South Africa's apartheid regime were infamous, this shows the mental climate within Rajneesh own community)

Rajneesh replies

One thing that I have experienced very deeply in these ten months is the false mask that is on every person’s face. I used to think that only some people work in drama companies, but as I see it now it feels as if every man is hidden behind a false mask. These months were precious, and necessary, in order to see man as he is – and even to understand that the very man I have been fighting for my whole life is not worth fighting for. He is a rotten corpse, a skeleton. His masks are beautiful; his soul, very ugly.

The way in which many countries from all over the world have welcomed me, makes several conclusions clear. One, that the affluent countries of the West who have everything – wealth, science, technology, and every arrangement for mankind’s destruction – do not have a single ray of life. And all this material development has naturally given them a false notion: that they are not only the masters of the whole world but of everyone’s souls as well.


[[url=http://www.google.com/search?q=%22apartheid%22+%22www.osho.com%2Fonline-library%22&hl=en&source=hp&ie=ISO-8859-1&gbv=1&btnG=Search]www.google.com[/url]]

Quote:
The terrible mental tension through which mankind is passing at the moment is
the result of this segregation, this apartheid of men and women. We have result of this segregation, this apartheid of men and women. We have separate schools and colleges for boys and girls; men and women sit in separate groups in churches and temples. Everywhere the sexes are being made to keep a distance from each other. Much of our present-day trouble and misery stems from this unnatural and unhealthy practice, because it violates the basic laws of nature. In this world the entire structure of life is based on the togetherness of the opposite forces. The more natural and spontaneous this togetherness, the more beneficial it is.

[[url=http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:PoCx0PmC52MJ:[www.osho.com]]webcache.googleusercontent.com[/url]]%
22The+terrible+mental+tension+through+which+mankind+is+passing+at+the+moment+is+*%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&strip=1



As for the opinions on Hitler, Raj wasnt the only Hindu pandit who held them.

Savitri Devi was another.

[[url=http://www.google.com/search?q=savitri+devi+%22hitler%22&hl=en&source=hp&ie=ISO-8859-1&gbv=1&btnG=Search]www.google.com[/url]]

[[url=http://www.google.com/search?q=savitri+devi+%22hitler%22+venus+project&hl=en&source=hp&ie=ISO-8859-1&gbv=1&btnG=Search]www.google.com[/url]]



Rajneesh

Quote:
'Don't worry,' Sheela would laugh back, unperturbed. 'We'll claim we were brainwashed if we're caught. They won't be able to touch us. I'll have proof that he was behind everything,' showing Deeksha the recording devices she hid on herself whenever she was with Bhagwan. For all his professed love of Jewish people, Deeksha confided to me bitterly, Bhagwan was virulently anti-Semitic. 'Jews are so ugly,' he'd remark after private conferences with rich Jewish sannyasins at the castle [in New Jersey].... 'Such ugly noses Jews have.'... 'His adulation of Hitler was disgusting,' Deeksha insisted. 'He used to boast to Sheela and me that he'd succeed where Hitler failed.' 'He wants to take over the world.... He'd swallow valiums and quaaludes by the handful, close his eyes and babble away to himself about how the world would be at his feet soon. Presidents and prime ministers would come to him. He'd be the power behind them.... He used to say the same thing in India. That Tibetans would come to him; the whole of China; Europe would be at his feet; Christians, Muslims, Jews.... The man's a megalomaniac.'

[[url=http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:w8upYbin46MJ:[www.enlightened-spirituality.org]]webcache.googleusercontent.com[/url]]

This crap has been going on in India for decades. The reasoning is that if one has the kind of power Hitler did, that proves one had merit for a fortunate birth. Many will go one stage further and equate possession of such power with being an avatar. There is no framework by which to assess power objectively and ask if it was aquired legitimately or not, whether the power is being used benevolently or viciously.

Swami Agehananda Bharati
on Hindu Fascism & Western Infatuation--Rajneesh would fit right in here.

Quote:
Modern Hindus tend to admire Hitler—first, because he was a leader of the Germans, who have the closest link with India's legendary past; second, he spoke of Aryans and selected the svastika, a sun symbol of great sanctity in all indigenous Indian religious traditions, as the emblem for his party; next—this sounds funny to orientalists and Sanskritists—the Germans supposedly know Sanskrit much better than anyone except the Indians themselves (Sanskrit is thought to be taught in high schools and German, as a language, is closer to Sanskrit, they believe, than any other non‑Indian speech!) Etically, all this is incredible nonsense; but emically, (emic --is a term from anthropology meaning 'in-group' language and behaviour vs etic language and behavior when outside observers are present-Corboy)it is now part of a defensive parlance in India...It is decidedly not the teaching of mystical practices, it is not the spread of yogic culture and meditation. Some or many of these monks of the first category may be mystics, but this is not what they regard as their homiletic subject; they speak about the good life in Hinduism, about the mythology, about the duties of people in the world; more recently they have propounded political views. In fact, there is a strong correlation between the new Hindu nationalism with its fascist elements and the oratory of some of these vocal, well informed, often erudite monks. (p. 171)
and

In the Bhagavadgita, the Lord Krsna says that the consummate yogi cannot do things wrong; even if he kills, he doesn't , because he does not identify with the body or the mind which kills.

This has given rise to ideas both naive and dangerous. It accounts for the latent Hindu fascism which, fortunately for the world, has no power except in India. If there were no way to apply and interpret these dicta of moral inversion, the orientalist profession might better have withheld these texts from an ideologically naive public.

So far, it is the spiritually minded and the weird alone in the western world who intuit the gigantic power which would be unleashed if people at large took Krsna's advice seriously. For if they did, Hitler would be in his own.

With the phony mysticism that floated around the Nazi fortresses, the top leaders might have vaguely absorbed these teachings. It is not impossible that they got hold of some translations, and, seeing themselves as Arjunas and Krsnas, acted the new Aryan heroes who made their own rules, and who believed that murdering might not be murdering after all, and that they as superior hierophants were doing what Krsna had suggested.

This sounds monstrous when said in the West, but I have heard it dozens of times enuncianted by gentle Hindu scholars who would not kill a single fly or eat a single fish.
SOURCE: Bharati, Swami Agehananda. The Light at the Center: Context and Pretext of Modern Mysticism. Santa Barbara, CA: Ross-Erikson, 1976. Excerpts: pp. 127-128, 171, 185, 199-200; footnotes omitted.


Back to Pooleman.

Just go look at citations for Rajneesh's lectures. The verbal spume goes on forever.

Could he have been a follower? Hmmm??

Here aer search terms on Rajneesh, hitler etc.

[[url=http://www.google.com/search?q=jews+hitler+%22www.osho.com%2Fonline-library%22&hl=en&source=hp&ie=ISO-8859-1&gbv=1&btnG=Search]www.google.com[/url]]

[[url=http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:1CNaucUbV0UJ:[www.autodidactproject.org]]webcache.googleusercontent.com[/url]]

Stoic has pointed out an interesting avenue. Very interesting.



November 28, 2011 05:02PM
The Anticult
Date Added: 03/17/2006
Posts: 4558
Re: Desteni and the criminal Osho/Rajneesh

Earlier in this thread, it was already determined that Poolman was a follower of the criminal Rajneesh/OSHO. Poolman admires the criminal Osho as much as he worships the psychotic mass murderer Adolph Hitler.
One will probably find at some point that Poolman was a member in the Osho communes, where he learned all the cynical tricks on how to manipulate people.
Poolman copied his Desteni commune/farm idea from Osho.

So its a grab bag of techniques used by Poolman on people, copied from various cult leaders, criminals and mass murderers like Hitler.

Anyone can see the writing style above from Poolman, is the same as the Hitler garbage.
There is so much Hitler nonsense from Desteni, you have to have a strong stomach to go through it.
But as above, anyone who has gone through some of it, please post the excerpts for others.

And the entire Desteni Hitler archive needs to be sent to every single Neo-Nazi watch organization, to enter into their database.

Too bad there wasn't more public activism for other cults, as the public activism has serious curtailed Desteni's abilities.

But the Desteni Hitler archive, must be saved offline, and then sent to the various people who Desteni is in business with.


Visa, Mastercard, Diners Club, Discover, AMEX, PayPal and everyone else needs to see the Executive Summary of the Desteni Hitler material.
In some countries, that may be illegal, and should be enough for them to cancel the accounts.


Obviously Desteni believes Hitler was on the right track, like any other Neo-Nazi group.
One has to wonder, buried in the Desteni Hitler writings, is there a denial of some of the crimes against humanity of Hitler and his henchmen?
That is why one hopes that Neo-Nazi watch organizations can get the entire Desteni Hitler archive, and then go through it carefully, and see what is in there.


November 28, 2011 05:21PM
corboy
Date Added: 06/19/2002
Posts: 4935
Re: Desteni

Damn.

One thing Rajneesh demonstrated to all the world is just how long people will sit and gaze adoringly through hours upon hours of word babble.

Gita Mehta, in her book Karma Cola gave a thinly disguised description of Rajneesh in Pune.

"In the ashram, the guru was known to be God. Some of the ashram inmates were aspiring to become God...

'The next day I went off to hear God's morning discourse. God sat in a cushioned swivel chair with a blue denim hat on his head and spoke about revolution. As the discourse gathered momentum, it became clear that God was an intellectual snob. He dropped only the heaviest names. Jesus. Marx. Mahavira. And Fritz Perls. His two thousand plus devotees inhaled, writhed or listened in an ecstacy of being.

'Present at the gathering were several Japanese and Korean disciples who spoke no English. They sat in the early morning sunlight staring at God with beatific smiles, the envy of their occidental brethren.

"They can hear with their hearts. There are no words to stand between them and God's pure energy. They can be one with him."

"Did you feel God's aura (the devotees are now quizzing Gita Mehta directly), did you get a hit off the energy?" They demanded.

"Well" (says Mehta) backtracking 'Well, uh, he's very widely read". I backtracked, trying to get a little room.

They looked at me coldly.

""It's beautiful that you're here. But just why are you here?"

"As a tourist" I explained.

"Oh" they said, and the steel shutters came down over their eyes.

Karma Cola Gita Mehta, pages 28 to 31

So..this is the social climate in Pune/Poona at Rajneesh's ashram, a climate many continue to dote on, to this day.

Here is page 115 of the pages that were lost from this thread since the domain name was changed. Some links might be out of date but links to this forum have been updated.

...............................................................................................................................................................................................

November 28, 2011 05:26PM
Stoic
Date Added: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1953
Re: Desteni and the criminal Osho/Rajneesh

Rajneesh/Osho published enough books and videos worldwide for there to be no need for commune membership.

Bernard and/or his brother was in the learning tapes/language business himself and may have just spotted an opportunity to do a hybrid of the two--especially after he went bankrupt in his 'legitimate' business.

He's acknowledged Rajneesh as a mentor though, as mentioned earlier in the thread.



The bagpipe version, just for balance:
[[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zFReeDI6WY&hd=1]http://www.youtube.com[/url]]


November 28, 2011 06:27PM
Natasha
Date Added: 08/21/2011
Posts: 16
Re: Desteni, Adolf Hitler, Poolman, Visa, Equal Money, Neo-Nazi cult

I tried a couple of years ago to flag the Hitler material up to various Jewish organisations, thinking they might be interested to know what was going on ! No-one ever acknowledged my letters, I think they probably thought it was just too off the wall to get involved with.


November 28, 2011 11:05PM
truthbheard
Date Added: 10/31/2011
Posts: 14
Re: Desteni, Adolf Hitler, Poolman, Visa, Equal Money, Neo-Nazi cult

I agree that we should send this Hitler (Desteni) information to Jewish groups. If they hear from enough of
us they will surely look into it. I'm certain they will not take it lightly. (Natasha, I will contact you on a plan)

I did want to say, as we all seem to realize, the best thing to do is hit Bernard Poolman in his wallet. I, for
one have contacted other cards to alert and explain the situation. Once the members see the changes that
Desteni will have to make financially. If they are unable to use Mastercard, Visa, American Express, Discover,
that will really make it difficult to keep the money flowing. Then the members will start to see the light at the
end of the tunnel.

Granted, my "friend" is a member and recruiting and as far as I know, making some some amount of money.
But I do not beleve that "he" feels that this whole Hitler thing is right to bring up and 'forgive him'. "He" has
said those words to me, but I know that he is in this cult for the ems.

Thanks for all this information and short cuts of how to get to the credit card companies.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2011 11:10PM by truthbheard.


November 29, 2011 12:03AM
The Anticult
Date Added: 03/17/2006
Posts: 4558
Re: Desteni, MLM, pyramid schemes, ponzi schemes

Don't forget, everyone involved in these dodgy MLM, pyramid schemes, ponzi schemes, is trained to exaggerate and outright lie about how much money they are making from them.
They learn quickly if they tell people they are not making any money, then others won't sign up.

But if they lie, and say, I AM MAKING THOUSANDS A MONTH FROM MY DOWNLINE!! then more people sign-up.

Its very hard to believe anyone other than Poolman is making any money from Desteni.

And if any True Believer in Desteni made a few bucks, they would spend it on more Desteni courses, like Scientology.

But Hitler is a core idea in Desteni, which is why Desteni and Poolman are now trying to conceal that.

The Neo-Nazi watch groups would surely archive all of the Desteni Hitler writings somewhere in their database, although they might not comment on it, until something illegal begins to happen.

But a Neo-Nazi watch group in Germany, might comment on this, as Desteni was running a server out of Germany at one point, right?
Desteni would possibly be illegal in Germany, with their Hitler garbage.


November 29, 2011 01:34AM
The Anticult
Date Added: 03/17/2006
Posts: 4558
Darryl Thomas, anti-semitism Desteni, MLM, pyramid schemes, ponzi

[[url=http://darrylthomas.wordpress.com/]darrylthomas.wordpress.com[/url]] darrylthomas.wordpress.com
There is also quite a bit of direct anti-semitism to be found on that blog.

Looks like Darryl Thomas thinks he is in control of Desteni.


November 29, 2011 05:40AM
Sandman
Date Added: 06/12/2008
Posts: 295
Desteni scam, MLM, equal money system, equal life foudnation

The main Desteni scam, "Equal money system" is portrayed as being for a good cause to stop world poverty by starting a new political group. But the Desteni organization has never carried out any efforts to help the poverty-stricken and is not involved in any way in any kind of genuine political campaign, official or unofficial.

The only point there is to Equal Money System is to recruit for the Desteni I Process Multi Level Marketing scheme.

The web address for making donations to "Equal Life Foundation" is http://equalmoney.org/support-establishing-the-equal-money-system

"Equal Life Foundation" is just the name of a bank account and a website at http://equallife.org

The bank used by Desteni is First National Bank
[[url=http://www.fnb.co.za]www.fnb.co.za[/url]]

That's store number 49 in Liberty Midlands Mall
[[url=http://www.midlandsmall.co.za]www.midlandsmall.co.za[/url]]

So the First National Bank at Liberty Midlands Mall, which is in Pietermaritzburg can also be informed of the Desteni scam.


December 01, 2011 06:08AM
Sandman
Date Added: 06/12/2008
Posts: 295
Eugenics, Nazis, Desteni, equal money system

Desteni are now advocating eugenics. Marlen Vargas Del Razo has published,

"Eugenics is Best for All Life in Equality"

[[url=http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_4D9kv6VtygJ:marlenlife.wordpress.com/2011/11/29/eugenics-is-best-for-all-life-in-equality/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk]webcache.googleusercontent.com[/url]]

She writes:

Advocating this point can lead us once again to a known-link which is Hitler. The sterilization of ‘defectives’ was in his book Mein Kampf and as such it was regarded as ‘evil.’ – I have no problem at all with that either

(Check your history, Marlen, it wasn't just in a book)

and

If we look at what’s best for all, the only reason that we would prevent a suitable creation of a human being at a genomic level would be having a particular sentimentalism or preferences for certain races linked to cultures/ languages, all programs that were deliberately created to have the current inequality we have.

Which would be the same as saying, 'Desteni is in favor of the extermination of certain ethnic groups'.


December 01, 2011 01:44PM
The Anticult
Date Added: 03/17/2006
Posts: 4558
Re: Eugenics, Nazis, Desteni, equal money system

Desteni is turning into more of a madhouse all the time.
When a sect start believing insane things as a paranoid group, that can be very dangerous.

Now Desteni supports the sterilizing of humans, like Hitler did. [en.wikipedia.org]
And the second comment is supporting the elimination/genocide of certain races that Desteni doesn't like.

Desteni as a group has really gone off the rails.


December 01, 2011 09:39PM
truthbheard
Date Added: 10/31/2011
Posts: 14
Re: Desteni

And the plot thickens. Wow, the subjects that Desteni is dealing with are frightening. My "friend" always seemed to
feel very uncomfortable with the subject of Hitler. As he should have. "He" as well as many of the members don't seem to "get this" part of Desteni. IE: their brainwashing. They all just seem to believe Bernard, no matter what their minds say. I know from my "friends" behavior awhile before our "relationship" ended, that "he" was on an emotional roller coaster. Trying almost too hard to fall into place with Bernards' soldiers and BELIEVE. "He" would always go back to the computer in the end. As I have mentioned before, I was not willing to view Sunette's videos or read the information that the members would write, so alot of what I am reading is new to me. I knew it was bad, but this information is very scary. I have been in contact with a family member of "my friends", and I told this person about Rick Ross, and "he" is going to check it out.
I am feeling very angry that my "friend" was so gullible and insecure to get involved with Desteni in the first place. In a
way I blame myself for not sticking around. I may have been able, along with "his" family to convince "him" that there is another way.

I have a question for the 'experts' here. Do you think that I could have helped "him" to get out of this cult. I did try, but I just wasn't convincing enough I guess.
The toll this has taken on me ("his friend") and "his" family is unexplainable, but I will keep on, because "he" still means alot to me.

Thanks very much for listening and for your help.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2011 09:42PM by truthbheard.


December 01, 2011 10:45PM
Stoic
Date Added: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1953
Re: Desteni

The whole Getting Help (button at the top of the page) section of the site is useful, here's a sample:

[[url=http://www.culteducation.com/coping.html]www.culteducation.com[/url]]

I think you shouldn't give yourself too much of a hard time with regard to getting your friend out of the cult, people get involved for complex personal reasons and then get caught in a trap.
Educating yourself helps, though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2013 06:27AM by Sandman.

Here is page 116 of the pages that were lost from this thread since the domain name was changed. Some links might be out of date but links to this forum have been updated.

...............................................................................................................................................................................................

December 01, 2011 11:11PM
The Anticult
Date Added: 03/17/2006
Posts: 4557
Re: Desteni

You cannot blame yourself for someone you know being in a cult or sect.
How many people posting here, with quite a bit of knowledge about cults and sects, have friends or colleagues in some cult?
Probably all.

Everyone is different in how they handle it, some indirect, some blunt and direct.
One person in a mild sect was anonymously forwarded information to their email about their sects financial abuses, and they left the sect.

But more serious sects, the people indoctrinating them are expert persuaders, so its hard to compete with.
Its very tricky stuff.
But one can never blame themselves for someone they know getting lured into a cult or sect.


December 03, 2011 04:37AM
vivian111
Date Added: 11/24/2011
Posts: 25
Re: Desteni

The Cult Test


December 03, 2011 06:12AM
vivian111
Date Added: 11/24/2011
Posts: 25
Re: Desteni

Hi concernedmom83, I replied to your PM, but got this message:

Quote:
The message could not be sent.
The mail storage space for user 'concernedmom83' is full.

If you can open up some space when you have a moment, I'll resend :)



December 03, 2011 09:51AM
vivian111
Date Added: 11/24/2011
Posts: 25
Re: Desteni

A good book in my opinion to gain better insight is People of the Lie: The Hope for Healing Human Evil by M. Scott Peck.

He is better known for his other classic though: The Road Less Traveled.

Some reviews on People of the Lie:

Quote:
"Book Review"
If you have ever experienced or been frustrated by people who seem to have a hidden agenda then you will enjoy and benefit from this book. The author states (some are paraphrased) and explains the following:
1. The evil hide their motives with lies.
2. Evil people want to appear to be good.
3. When confronted by evil, the wisest and most secure adult will usually experience confusion.
4. Evil seeks to discourage others to think for themselves (fosters dependency).
5. To oppose evil we must have an ongoing dedication to reality at all cost.

Quote:
"Book Review"
I remember picking this book up about 5 years ago and scanning through the first couple of chapters thinking to myself, "What is this guy talking about? I can't even fathom people that act like this." It just didn't ring true because my experience had not seen the likes of what he was trying to explain.

Fast forward 5 years later, and after going through a harrowing job experience with two people who could star in a movie representation of this book (which, come to think of it, has already been done in a film called SWIMMING WITH SHARKS in the character played by Kevin Spacey), I read it through in a single sitting. Peck so accurately diagnoses the "people of the lie" as being so self-absorbed and narcisistic that they continually make excuses about the abuse they heap upon other people, somehow turning every story 180 degrees in the opposite direction and always claiming victimization when the situation so clearly points to them as the perpetrator. It is a sad indictment of what must be a pandemic within institutions, as these folks clamor and cling to power, money and title oblivious to the human carnage left in the wake of their passing.

But even still, where our hearts are naturally inclined toward revenge, Peck cautions us, coaxing us toward pity for these wretched creatures. He suggests that whatever vile hellaciousness we could dream up as pay back should be tempered with the notion that these folks have consigned themselves to live in a hell of their own making (kind of like Annabella Sciorra in the movie, WHAT DREAMS MAY COME). The dark night of the soul sees their hearts scream out, "I hate you, you're nothing" when the worst some of us deal with is, "Ack... dumb mistake... oh well... keep going."

Quote:
"Book Review"
I was recommended this book by a very smart man when we were discussing co-dependence. However, I found that this book has a lot of relevance to religious cults also, explaining and describing what evil people do to gain power. It is not easy to read, very intellectual and sometimes very painful if you have gone through a situation where you were exploited by someone you loved or trusted. Even if the majority of the book is not your cup of tea, you will pick up a few very powerful and valuable insights and coping tools! One of my favorite was Dr. Peck's discussion of a certain biblical scripture that is repeatedly taken out of context. This is early in the book. Another was his description of evil in the chapter about exorcism (it is boring and predictable when you know what you are looking at). I am in a more powerful position than before I read this book.

Quote:
"Book Review"
I haven't been drawn into completing a book since last April '06 but I finished this book in a couple days. The main draw for me was my recognition of the behaviors and dynamics that he described. The satisfaction of the book was, as he called it, putting a name to, what up to that point had been, a very confusing aspect of life.

Peck uses the label of "evil" to name behaviors and influences within several case studies. He successfully (IMHO) disclaimed his use of the term knowing full well the weighty connotations yet, literally for lack of a better word, I support his calling his experiences confrontations with evil.

I also agree with his urging for people - all people - to recognize this aspect of life for what it is and face it with the same vigor that we would other facets of life. Acknowledge its existence and then study it thoroughly. By coming to a full understanding of this, we as humanity can address it from a place of power. As it stands, evil can be such a dreadful, confounding, even fatal, experience. Humanity has certainly faced other threats with courage, determination and, essential per Peck, love.

Read it, then talk about it. If you can come up with a better term than "evil" do so, but put some label on what you recognize and confront the issue. Everyone will benefit.

Quote:
"Book Review"
One of the more perplexing human plagues, evil doesn't seek to be treated. Rather, it's those effected by evil that find themselves in a miasma of self-doubt and indeterminacy that often exhibit evil's effect. Dr Peck uses his considerable experience and keen intellect to explore the problem and bring some structure to those of us that have been effected. What is shocking is the number of people that I know that can relate. The willingness to sacrifice anything to maintain the appearance of a lie, is a surprisingly effective nucleolus from which to understand the problem and its effects.



December 03, 2011 02:14PM
concernedmom83
Date Added: 02/23/2011
Posts: 80
Re: Desteni

Well I read that we are reallly getting proactive, which is great.

Truthbheard, please let me say to you: Don't beat yourself up. Their is nothing that you could have done to
prevent your friend from becoming a member of destenicult. I can feel the pain that this has caused both
you as a friend, AND your friends family. I would be more than happy to speak to you privately if you so
choose. You are doing the right thing by your friend.

VivianIII, thanks so much for your all the info that you have posted for all to read, it's helped me a great deal.

Something seems to be happening with members' famiiles[/i] and friends. I think it's that out of exasperation with the member they research and the first thing one comes to on google is: Rick Ross. So together we seem to be collectively fighting back the lies of destenicult. This is the first website that gave me hope through education of cults, other members posts, links and the sharing bond that destenicult is a cult and it is only a
matter of time before it's members realize this. Apparently others have found the same.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2011 02:16PM by concernedmom83.


December 03, 2011 05:13PM
The Anticult
Date Added: 03/17/2006
Posts: 4557
Re: Desteni

Unfortunately, these cults and sects always target the family to demonize and break it apart.
That makes their target alone, and easier to influence.

But many cult members who are having doubts, privately read forums like this.


December 04, 2011 06:04PM
Natasha
Date Added: 08/21/2011
Posts: 16
Re: Desteni

But even still, where our hearts are naturally inclined toward revenge, Peck cautions us, coaxing us toward pity for these wretched creatures. He suggests that whatever vile hellaciousness we could dream up as pay back should be tempered with the notion that these folks have consigned themselves to live in a hell of their own making (kind of like Annabella Sciorra in the movie, WHAT DREAMS MAY COME). The dark night of the soul sees their hearts scream out, "I hate you, you're nothing" when the worst some of us deal with is, "Ack... dumb mistake... oh well... keep going."

Yes. I think this is so important. This huge hell of self blame is only possible when there is a disproportionately huge sense of self, of ego, going on. As if all mistakes are of massive and universal importance to the world... what is the word that crops up most in the forum writings, the 'self-forgiveness' ?
I, I, I, endlessly focussing on oneself, at the expense of awarensss of what is going on in the immediate surroundings, between people who are actually present, even, never mind what is actually going on out there in the world.


December 05, 2011 03:01AM
vivian111
Date Added: 11/24/2011
Posts: 25
Re: Desteni

Hi concernedmom83, I responded to your PM, but it tells me your mailbox is full again.

Let me know when you've made some space :)


December 05, 2011 07:02AM
Sandman
Date Added: 06/12/2008
Posts: 295
Re: Desteni

Self-forgiveness in Desteni equates with point 4 in "Eight Criteria for Thought Reform" by Robert Jay Lifton

-- 'Confession: Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Reform_(book)

Whatever they have confessed creates the illusion that how they view themselves as part of the group can provide them with answers to all their problems and ultimately all the problems of the world.

Not for the first time, one member even goes as far as to say that the Desteni I Process will be the solution for all mental illness...
[[url=http://forum.desteni.org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1808&start=20]forum.desteni.org[/url]]


December 05, 2011 07:44AM
vivian111
Date Added: 11/24/2011
Posts: 25
Re: Desteni

Quote:
Sandman
Not for the first time, one member even goes as far as to say that the Desteni I Process will be the solution for all mental illness...

And this is an example of the simplistic black and white thinking which is so characteristic of cult members. Their "reasoning" is often peppered with absolute words like: all/nothing always/never black/white etc.

They can't see nuances and shades of grey.

Here's a good article from an ex-Scientologist about black and white thinking:

Leaving Scientology: Black and White Thinking

It's basically an extremist worldview.

Let's see how high Desteni scores here: 21 traits of an extremist

Quote:
Laird Wilcox on Extremist Traits

Robert F. Kennedy wrote:

"What is objectionable, what is dangerous about extremists is not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant. The evil is not what they say about their cause, but what they say about their opponents."


In analyzing the rhetoric and propaganda of several hundred militant "fringe" political and social groups across the political spectrum, I have identified a number of specific traits or behaviors that tend to represent the extremist "style"...


1. CHARACTER ASSASSINATION.

Extremists often attack the character of an opponent rather than deal with the facts or issues raised. They will question motives, qualifications, past associations, alleged values, personality, looks, mental health, and so on as a diversion from the issues under consideration. Some of these matters are not entirely irrelevant , but they should not serve to avoid the real issues.

Extremists object strenuously when this is done to them, of course!


2. NAME-CALLING AND LABELING.

Extremists are quick to resort to epithets (racist, subversive, pervert, hate monger, nut, crackpot, degenerate, un-American, anti-semite, red, commie, nazi, kook, fink, liar, bigot, and so on) to label and condemn opponents in order to divert attention from their arguments and to discourage others from hearing them out. These epithets don't have to be proved to be effective; the mere fact that they have been said is often enough.


3. IRRESPONSIBLE SWEEPING GENERALIZATIONS.

Extremists tend to make sweeping claims or judgments on little or no evidence, and they have a tendency to confuse similarity with sameness. That is, they assume that because two (or more) things, events, or persons are alike in some respects, they must be alike in most respects. The sloppy use of analogy is a treacherous form of logic and has a high potential for false conclusions.


4. INADEQUATE PROOF FOR ASSERTIONS.

Extremists tend to be very fuzzy about what constitutes proof, and they also tend to get caught up in logical fallacies, such as post hoc ergo propter hoc (assuming that a prior event explains a subsequent occurrence simply because of their before and after relationship). They tend to project wished-for conclusions and to exaggerate the significance of information that confirms their beliefs while derogating or ignoring information that contradicts them. They tend to be motivated by feelings more than facts, by what they want to exist rather than what actually does exist. Extremists do a lot of wishful and fearful thinking.


5. ADVOCACY OF DOUBLE STANDARDS.

Extremists generally tend to judge themselves or their interest group in terms of their intentions, which they tend to view very generously, and others by their acts, which they tend to view very critically. They would like you to accept their assertions on faith, but they demand proof for yours. They tend to engage in special pleading on behalf of themselves or their interests, usually because of some alleged special status, past circumstances, or present disadvantage.


6. TENDENCY TO VIEW THEIR OPPONENTS AND CRITICS AS ESSENTIALLY EVIL.

To the extremist, opponents hold opposing positions because they are bad people, immoral, dishonest, unscrupulous, mean-spirited, hateful, cruel, or whatever, not merely because they simply disagree, see the matter differently, have competing interests, or are perhaps even mistaken.


7. MANICHAEAN WORLDVIEW.

Extremists have a tendency to see the world in terms of absolutes of good and evil, for them or against them, with no middle ground or intermediate positions. All issues are ultimately moral issues of right and wrong, with the "right" position coinciding with their interests. Their slogan is often "those who are not with me are against me."


8. ADVOCACY OF SOME DEGREE OF CENSORSHIP OR REPRESSION OF THEIR OPPONENTS AND/OR CRITICS.

This may include a very active campaign to keep opponents from media access and a public hearing, as in the case of blacklisting, banning or "quarantining" dissident spokespersons. They may actually lobby for legislation against speaking, writing, teaching, or instructing "subversive" or forbidden information or opinions. They may even attempt to keep offending books out of stores or off of library shelves, discourage advertising with threats of reprisals, and keep spokespersons for "offensive" views off the airwaves or certain columnists out of newspapers. In each case the goal is some kind of information control. Extremists would prefer that you listen only to them. They feel threatened when someone talks back or challenges their views.


9. TEND TO IDENTIFY THEMSELVES IN TERMS OF WHO THEIR ENEMIES ARE: WHOM THEY HATE AND WHO HATES THEM.

Accordingly, extremists may become emotionally bound to their opponents, who are often competing extremists themselves. Because they tend to view their enemies as evil and powerful, they tend, perhaps subconsciously, to emulate them, adopting the same tactics to a certain degree. For example, anti-Communist and anti-Nazi groups often behave surprisingly like their opponents. Anti-Klan rallies often take on much of the character of the stereotype of Klan rallies themselves, including the orgy of emotion, bullying, screaming epithets, and even acts of violence. To behave the opposite of someone is to actually surrender your will to them, and "opposites" are often more like mirror images that, although they have "left" and "right" reversed, look and behave amazingly alike.


10. TENDENCY TOWARD ARGUMENT BY INTIMIDATION.

Extremists tend to frame their arguments in such a way as to intimidate others into accepting their premises and conclusions. To disagree with them is to "ally oneself with the devil," or to give aid and comfort to the enemy. They use a lot of moralizing and pontificating, and tend to be very judgmental. This shrill, harsh rhetorical style allows them to keep their opponents and critics on the defensive, cuts off troublesome lines of argument, and allows them to define the perimeters of debate.


11. USE OF SLOGANS, BUZZWORDS, AND THOUGHT-STOPPING CLICHES.

For many extremists shortcuts in thinking and in reasoning matters out seem to be necessary in order to avoid or evade awareness of troublesome facts and compelling counter-arguments. Extremists generally behave in ways that reinforce their prejudices and alter their own consciousness in a manner that bolsters their false confidence and sense of self-righteousness.


12. ASSUMPTION OF MORAL OR OTHER SUPERIORITY OVER OTHERS.

Most obvious would be claims of general racial or ethnic superiority--a master race, for example. Less obvious are claims of ennoblement because of alleged victimhood, a special relationship with God, membership in a special "elite" or "class," and a kind of aloof "highminded" snobbishness that accrues because of the weightiness of their preoccupations, their altruism, and their willingness to sacrifice themselves (and others) to their cause. After all, who can bear to deal with common people when one is trying to save the world! Extremists can show great indignation when one is "insensitive" enough to challenge these claims.


13. DOOMSDAY THINKING.

Extremists often predict dire or catastrophic consequences from a situation or from failure to follow a specific course, and they tend to exhibit a kind of "crisis-mindedness." It can be a Communist takeover, a Nazi revival, nuclear war, earthquakes, floods, or the wrath of God. Whatever it is, it's just around the corner unless we follow their program and listen to the special insight and wisdom, to which only the truly enlightened have access. For extremists, any setback or defeat is the "beginning of the end!"


14. BELIEF THAT IT'S OKAY TO DO BAD THINGS IN THE SERVICE OF A "GOOD" CAUSE.

Extremists may deliberately lie, distort, misquote, slander, defame, or libel their opponents and/or critics, engage in censorship or repression , or undertake violence in "special cases." This is done with little or no remorse as long as it's in the service of defeating the Communists or Fascists or whomever. Defeating an "enemy" becomes an all-encompassing goal to which other values are subordinate. With extremists, the end justifies the means.


15. EMPHASIS ON EMOTIONAL RESPONSES AND, CORRESPONDINGLY, LESS IMPORTANCE ATTACHED TO REASONING AND LOGICAL ANALYSIS.

Extremists have an unspoken reverence for propaganda, which they may call "education" or "consciousness-raising." Symbolism plays an exaggerated role in their thinking, and they tend to think imprecisely and metamorphically. Harold D. Lasswell, in his book, *Psychopathology and Politics*, says, "The essential mark of the agitator is the high value he places on the emotional response of the public." Effective extremists tend to be effective propagandists. Propaganda differs from education in that the former teaches one what to think, and the latter teaches one how to think.


16. HYPERSENSITIVITY AND VIGILANCE.

Extremists perceive hostile innuendo in even casual comments; imagine rejection and antagonism concealed in honest disagreement and dissent; see "latent" subversion, anti-semitism, perversion, racism, disloyalty, and so on in innocent gestures and ambiguous behaviors. Although few extremists are clinically paranoid, many of them adopt a paranoid style with its attendant hostility and distrust.


17. USE OF SUPERNATURAL RATIONALE FOR BELIEFS AND ACTIONS.

Some extremists, particularly those involved in "cults" or extreme religious movements, such as fundamentalist Christians, militant Zionist extremists, and members of mystical and metaphysical organizations, claim some kind of supernatural rationale for their beliefs and actions, and that their movement or cause is ordained by God. In this case, stark extremism may become reframed in a "religious" context, which can have a legitimizing effect for some people. It's surprising how many people are reluctant to challenge religiously motivated extremism because it represents "religious belief" or because of the sacred-cow status of some religions in our culture.


18. PROBLEMS TOLERATING AMBIGUITY AND UNCERTAINTY.

Indeed, the ideologies and belief systems to which extremists tend to attach themselves often represent grasping for certainty in an uncertain world, or an attempt to achieve absolute security in an environment that is naturally unpredictable or perhaps populated by people with interests opposed to their own. Extremists exhibit a kind of risk-aversiveness that compels them to engage in controlling and manipulative behavior, both on a personal level and in a political context, to protect themselves from the unforeseen and unknown. The more laws or "rules" there are that regulate the behavior of others--particular their "enemies"--the more secure extremists feel.


19. INCLINATION TOWARD "GROUPTHINK."

Extremists, their organizations , and their subcultures are prone to a kind of inward-looking group cohesiveness that leads to what Irving Janis discussed in his excellent book Victims of Groupthink. "Groupthink" involves a tendency to conform to group norms and to preserve solidarity and concurrence at the expense of distorting members' observations of facts, conflicting evidence, and disquieting observations that would call into question the shared assumptions and beliefs of the group.

Right-wingers (or left-wingers), for example, talk only with one another, read material that reflects their own views, and can be almost phobic about the "propaganda" of the "other side." The result is a deterioration of reality-testing, rationality, and moral judgment. With groupthink, shared illusions of righteousness, superior morality, persecution, and so on remain intact, and those who challenge them are viewed with skepticism and hostility.


20. TENDENCY TO PERSONALIZE HOSTILITY.

Extremists often wish for the personal bad fortune of their "enemies," and celebrate when it occurs. When a critic or an adversary dies or has a serious illness, a bad accident, or personal legal problems, extremists often rejoice and chortle about how they "deserved" it. I recall seeing right-wing extremists celebrate the assassination of Martin Luther King and leftists agonizing because George Wallace survived an assassination attempt. In each instance their hatred was not only directed against ideas, but also against individual human beings.


21. EXTREMISTS OFTEN FEEL THAT THE SYSTEM IS NO GOOD UNLESS THEY WIN.

For example, if they lose an election, then it was "rigged." If public opinion turns against them, it was because of "brainwashing." If their followers become disillusioned, it's because of "sabotage." The test of the rightness or wrongness of the system is how it impacts upon them...

Here is page 117 of the pages that were lost from this thread since the domain name was changed. Some links might be out of date but links to this forum have been updated.

...............................................................................................................................................................................................

December 05, 2011 10:16AM
concernedmom83
Date Added: 02/23/2011
Posts: 80
Re: Desteni

Sandman, this is so true. I have always felt that the member's "public confessions" have welded them to
destenicult. Just think of any group one would belong to, whether it be for enjoyment, (bowling, tennis,)
or a social concern group, ...my point is: NONE WOULD ASK OR EXPECT A CONFESSSION FROM IT'S MEMBERS!
I think not even the social watch dogs of todays society.

Equally disturbing was this post by: 'Marlen' (a member of desteni):

Desteni are now advocating eugenics. Marlen Vargas Del Razo has published,

"Eugenics is Best for All Life in Equality"

[webcache.googleusercontent.com]

She writes:

Advocating this point can lead us once again to a known-link which is Hitler. The sterilization of ‘defectives’ was in his book Mein Kampf and as such it was regarded as ‘evil.’ – I have no problem at all with that either


How in this day and age, after what this world has been through, would anyone see that this would be a solution.
Where does the meaning of "defectives" stop? Someone with vision problems? Someone with severe allergies? Someone
born with Down Syndrone?
In this world that we live in, here today, does this destenicult ACTUALLY believe that the world (all 7 billion of us) are going
to go along with this craziness? I can assure you, Marlen, with all that I know of people and their love for life, this is a very
serious hit against mankind.


December 05, 2011 11:58AM
Stoic
Date Added: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1953
Re: Desteni

That's a really good article, vivian 111, on extremist traits.


December 05, 2011 12:08PM
The Anticult
Date Added: 03/17/2006
Posts: 4558
Re: Desteni, using the techniques of mind control and brainwashing.

And guys like Poolman and his cohorts, use those techniques deliberately.
You always find with these guys trying to run sects like Desteni, that they have read and studied many books and cults, which use these TECHNIQUES of group control on the followers.
They do it 100% self-consciously, like a technician.
The leaders discuss the techniques only among eachother, and use them on the followers like they are guinea-pigs, using trial and error, to see what works.

That is why the Desteni Leaders admire Hitler. Hitler and his henchmen used some of the same techniques on the public, and on those in their inner circles.

Desteni practices self-conscious techniques of brainwashing, mind control, propaganda, lying, and ever other cultic technique in the book.
And they do it very obviously, as can be seen by the trained eye.


December 05, 2011 12:14PM
vivian111
Date Added: 11/24/2011
Posts: 25
Re: Desteni

Quote:
concernedmom83
Desteni are now advocating eugenics.

Actually, this is just symptomatic of narcissistic personality disorder, and falls under "splitting":

Narcissistic personality disorder:
[[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder]en.wikipedia.org[/url]]

Quote:
Splitting:

Splitting (psychology) - [[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology)]en.wikipedia.org[/url]]

People who are diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder use splitting (black and white thinking) as a central defense mechanism. They do this to preserve their self-esteem, by seeing the self as purely good and the others as purely bad. The use of splitting also implies the use of other defence mechanisms, namely devaluation, idealization and denial.

Additionally, from The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements:

Quote:
The less justified a man is in claiming excellence for his own self, the more ready is he to claim excellence for his nation, his religion, his race or his holy cause.

Likely unknown to "Marlen", is that schizophrenia was also regarded as degenerative to the human gene pool in the early eugenics program in the US, so some Desteni members (not mentioning names...) would have been sterilized as well.



December 05, 2011 12:56PM
Natasha
Date Added: 08/21/2011
Posts: 16
Re: Desteni

Very very useful and interesting comments, thanks to all the recent contributors.


December 05, 2011 01:36PM
vivian111
Date Added: 11/24/2011
Posts: 25
Re: Desteni

Quote:
Stoic
That's a really good article, vivian 111, on extremist traits.

Thanks Stoic, I discovered it one day while I was putting all the pieces together after my own cult experience. It's spot on.



December 05, 2011 05:07PM
Sandman
Date Added: 06/12/2008
Posts: 295
Re: Desteni

The question of an epidemic of Narcissism is a hot topic of debate in the contemporary field of psychology...

[[url=http://www.apa.org/monitor/2011/02/narcissism.aspx]www.apa.org[/url]]
[[url=http://news.discovery.com/human/narcissism-epidemic-college-students.html]news.discovery.com[/url]]
[[url=http://www.narcissismepidemic.com/index.html]www.narcissismepidemic.com[/url]]

Desteni provides a ready-made platform for narcissistic tendencies and an excuse to take up a self-righteous, self-centered attitude in public, all under the guise of saving the world....


December 05, 2011 07:23PM
corboy
Date Added: 06/19/2002
Posts: 4935
Re: Desteni

There is an important distinction between narcissistic personality disorder and narcissistic behavior disorder.

In NPD, one feels emptiness, but in NBD the person goes so far as to use/abuse other people as objects to self soothe or self repair. In one of the citations NBD is characterized by "

These days Narcissist and Narcissism are flung about.

Each of us has a tinge of narcisisistic personality wounding...none of us has ever had a 100% trauma free upbringing.

But Narcissistic Behavior Disorder " characterized by perverse, antisocial, and addictive behaviors" is very much more grave--one is using and abusing people as objects and leaving a trail of wreckage in one's wake.

The constant quest of a cult leader for new fresh recruits can be seen as similar to an addicts' drug seeking behavior.


[[url=http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sa=X&ei=fF3dTtbRLpH-iQKqj5WBBA&sqi=2&ved=0CCUQBSgA&q=%22narcissistic+personality+disorder%22+%22narcissistic+behavior+disorder%22+%22kohut%22&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=aa712503257bd70e&biw=1024&bih=587]www.google.com[/url]]

Note: It is very important to put "Kohut" into the search citation because he continued to study this issue for years and refined his understanding to see that a distinction had to be made between narcissistic personality disorder and narcissistic behavior disorder.


December 06, 2011 03:02PM
truthbheard
Date Added: 10/31/2011
Posts: 14
Re: Desteni

Great info and resources above. Thanks to all of you for publishing it. It took me quite awhile
to read through it and I still don't understand some of it. But it all makes sense, the more that
I read. Bernard had a plan from the beginning to be the leader of a cult. In a way, I don't think
that he could help himself after reading about his personality. It does fit him well.

I read my friends blogs, both old and new, and I can't believe he is the same person that I knew.
I know the answer to this question, but I don't understand. That is, why will Desteni not let
opposing views, that may turn into members, ask questions or inquire. It is a complete life
change that Bernard and the rest are asking the 'world' to take on. I would love to see an open
chat or open (live) forum where the 'outsiders' could ask questions. And they could ask us questions.
I for one, don't understand why Desteni doesn't do this. Well as I said I do know why, because
we are a threat to them, plain and simple.

My friend will not accept or acknowledge his family, his friends (me) or anyone from his past. It
seems like we didn't exist to him. He has a new 'family' and friends now I'm afraid. It's not that
he is unkind and say's 'stay out of my life', he just doesn't respond. Not only to me, to his siblings
and friends, who have tried to reach him.

My point is: If this is going to be an equal money system new world, then why ignore people that
love and care for you? (I know that there are others here who have experienced this, and I share the
pain with you)

Still researching .


December 07, 2011 01:24PM
vivian111
Date Added: 11/24/2011
Posts: 25
Re: Desteni

Some more social psychology:

Groupthink, conformity and suppression of dissent is strong in Desteni, as in all cults.

The Solomon Asch Conformity Experiment is applicable:

Youtube: Asch Conformity Experiment – 4:10

Here is page 118 of the pages that were lost from this thread since the domain name was changed. Some links might be out of date but links to this forum have been updated.

...............................................................................................................................................................................................

December 08, 2011 01:50AM
vivian111
Date Added: 11/24/2011
Posts: 25
Re: Desteni

Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion - Robert B. Cialdini

Quote:
"Book Description"
Influence, the classic book on persuasion, explains the psychology of why people say "yes"—and how to apply these understandings. Dr. Robert Cialdini is the seminal expert in the rapidly expanding field of influence and persuasion. His thirty-five years of rigorous, evidence-based research along with a three-year program of study on what moves people to change behavior has resulted in this highly acclaimed book.

You'll learn the six universal principles, how to use them to become a skilled persuader—and how to defend yourself against them. Perfect for people in all walks of life, the principles of Influence will move you toward profound personal change and act as a driving force for your success.

Quote:
"Amazon Review"
I read Cialdini's book about five years ago and have been hooked ever since. It is simply a superb book about influence.

Cialdini believes that influence is a science. This idea attracted me. As a rhetorician, I have always thought of persuasion as more of an art. Cialdini, however, makes a first-rate case for the science point of view. But maybe most importantly, he makes his case in a well-written, intelligent, and entertaining manner. Not only is this an important book to read, it is a fun book to read too.

He introduces you to six principles of ethical persuasion: reciprocity, scarcity, liking, authority, social proof, and commitment/consistency. A chapter is devoted to each and you quickly see why Cialdini looks at influence as a science. Each principle is backed by social scientific testing and restesting. Each chapter is also filled with interesting examples that help you see how each principle can be applied. By the end of the book, I had little doubt that these are six important dimensions of human interaction.

Quote:
"Amazon Review"
Most books of applied psychology fall prey to one of two weaknesses: Either they lack scientific content (or over-simplify) or they present solid information in an academic manner that readers find difficult to absorb and apply. Robert Cialdini's book stands out brilliantly from these books. Combining wide and deep scientific scholarship with an engaging, lucid, and personal style, Influence may be the single best work on the topic. The intent of the book is to show how we can understand and defend against pervasive non-rational influences on our decision-making. Of course the same principles could be applied to market products or influence colleagues and rivals either in place of or in addition to genuine reasons. One sign of the range of the book is the fact that Cialdini doesn't get to the famous Milgram experiment on "Obedience to Authority" until p.208.

The book concentrates on several factors that evolution and culture have drilled into us to produce compliance for good reasons, but which can be abused by "compliance professionals": reciprocation, commitment and consistency, social proof, liking, authority, and scarcity. Any reader will find the research results stunning and frightening. Fortunately, Cialdini concludes each compelling chapter with hints on "How to say no". No matter how intelligent you are, you have undoubtedly fallen for many of these techniques used deliberately or accidentally. How many poor business investment decisions, product purchases, or strategic moves have been influenced by non-rational factors?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

YouTube: Milgram's Obedience to Authority Experiment - 1/3

YouTube: Milgram's Obedience to Authority Experiment - 2/3

YouTube: Milgram's Obedience to Authority Experiment - 3/3



December 08, 2011 03:54AM
Stoic
Date Added: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1953
Re: Desteni

Again, a really good book recommendation, vivian111, Cialdini nails it.

Just to be thorough though, this book has become a handbook for tough, hard-sell salesmen everywhere, who don't just read the book as an exercise, they use the techniques in the field against their customers.


December 08, 2011 04:58AM
vivian111
Date Added: 11/24/2011
Posts: 25
Re: Desteni

Quote:
Stoic
Just to be thorough though, this book has become a handbook for tough, hard-sell salesmen everywhere, who don't just read the book as an exercise, they use the techniques in the field against their customers.

Yes, and it is in the hands of cult leaders that this book is very dangerous.

A con artist is striving to persuade you to suspend your disbelief, so that they may profit from it. But what do YOU get out of it? A con is the lowest of the low. He harnasses the energy of real spiritual curiosity and sends it down a worthless, blind, dead end road. If you buy into a fraction of his nonsense, you will have ever so much more difficulty climbing your way back out and regaining your discriminitive perception. They are dangerous liars and frauds. There are true, real, and authentic spiritual traditions that you may study if you are a serious student of Wisdom. Of course, there is simply no denying anything to people who want to believe.



December 08, 2011 09:54AM
vivian111
Date Added: 11/24/2011
Posts: 25
Re: Desteni

One of the comments on this blog entry says part of the Desteni cult's "psilosophy" was taken from Gurdjieff.

There are other threads here on Rick Ross about Gurdjieff. Gurdjieff's "Fourth Way" is very psychologically damaging:

About Gurdjieff:

Lords of the left-hand path: A history of spiritual dissent - Stephen E Flowers:



Quote:
"Editorial Review"
This is an extensive study of Left-Hand Path individuals and groups from ancient times to modern movements such as the Church of Satan and the Temple of Set - both of which have individual chapters in the book. Ancient paths include the Egyptian cult of Set, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, the Yezidis, Neoplatonists and the Greeks, the Germanics, the Slavs, the Assassins, Dualist sects, the Faustian path, the Hellfire Club, de Sade, Marx and the sinister aspects of Bolshevism.

A whole chapter is devoted to Hitler and Himmler and the occult practices of Nazism. Other modern individuals analyzed include Blavatsky, Gurdjieff, Crowley, Spare, Gregorius and Gerald Gardner.
Quote:
"Editorial Review"
From black magic and Satanism to Gnostic sects and Gurdjieff’s Fourth Way, the left-hand path has been linked to many practices, cults, and individuals across the ages. Stephen Flowers, Ph.D., examines the methods, teachings, and historical role of the left-hand path, from its origins in Indian tantric philosophy to its underlying influence in current world affairs, and reveals which philosophers, magicians, and occult figures throughout history can truly be called “Lords of the Left-Hand Path.”
Quote:
"Book Review"
This is the most comprehensive study of the Left-Hand Path and Satanism considered from its own perspectives. Dr. Flowers has traced divergent cultural streams of antinomian tradition of antiquity and the present. Flowers defines the Lordship of the Left-Hand Path from two key concepts: antinomianism, or going against the grain of society, and self-deification.

The book surveys cultural traditions, personalities and important groups that brought light onto aspects of the Prince of Darkness and the Left-Hand Path. There will be some surprises.

Chapters and sections include ancient Egypt, Sumerian, Chinese, Indian, Yezedis, and Northern European (the tradition Flowers is best known for). The development of Satan from its origins, through the Middle Ages is covered. A chapter on Nazi Occultism delves into the mysteries of Himmler and his black knights.

Modern occult schools and personalities surveyed include Crowley and his relation to the Left-Hand Path, Gurdjieff and his Work, Fraternitus Saturni, A. O. Spare.

Modern Satanism is explored through the Church of Satan and its founder Anton Szandor LaVey. The myth and magic of LaVey and his work are explored, and also the sources that LaVey utilized in his creation of a system that proclaimed Man as God. The Church of Satan is examined from its sources and the philosophies of the CoS are examined: from Satanic Ethics to Satanic Magic and Erotic Crystallization Inertia.

The survey of the Temple of Set is the most comprehensive of that shadowy institution in any public medium. Flowers charts the development of the Setian philosophy from out of its Satanic parent to the present. Major Temple concepts are covered, including the Black Flame, Life Beyond Death, Lesser and Greater Black Magic, and the Word Xeper. Several Orders within the Temple of Set are also examined, including the Order of the Vampyre and the Order of the Trapezoid.

This book is an important milestone in the history of the Left Hand Path. It is both a reliable history for researchers of magic and a valuable source book for practicing Black Magicians. This text is a torch on the dark corners of the blackest arts, and a valuable tool for the discriminating mind.

Georgi Ivanovich Gurdjieff - Knight of the Supremacy of the Will - Sir Hassein, K.Tr.:

Quote:
Gurdjieff was a Left-Hand Path (LHP) Initiate. All who claim otherwise have never finished reading Beelzebub's Tales.

Three Dangerous Magi: Osho, Gurdjieff, Crowley - P. T. Mistlberger:



Quote:
Osho, Gurdjieff, and Crowley were all entirely occupied with healing the inner fragmentation of the person. To tackle this problem they, on occasion, moved deeply into exploring the Left Hand path and accordingly ended up using many approaches that addressed the repressed, shadow part of the mind.

Cult Education Forum - Re: Gurdjieff groups in the SF Bay Area - mid-seventies

Quote:
You might want to do some research on Michael Aquino as well. He took over Anton LaVey's Satanic church in San Francisco and founded the Temple of Set
in Marin. Interestingly, several Gurdjieff books are on that organization's reading list. Aquino was also a high ranking officer in the U.S. Navy and at least partly responsible for the abuse of children in mind control experiments at the San Francisco Presidio, which was exposed in the news in the later 1970s.

I know of at least one Gurdjieff/Subud group that is connected to an area Satanic group.

An Interview with Venger Satanis, High Priest of the Cult of Cthulhu

Quote:
Question: What makes the Cult of Cthulhu a unique manifestation of the Left Hand Path (LHP)? How is it different from organizations such as the Church of Satan and Temple of Set apart from the gooey, bloody aesthetic?

Answer: That is an involved question so feel free to ask me to elaborate on points I may gloss over. First, there's the Lovecraftian aesthetic. Both the Church of Satan and Temple of Set have been influenced by the Cthulhu Mythos, of course, the Cult of Cthulhu takes it to a whole other level.

Modern and/or atheistic Satanism focuses on primitive instincts. That's what Satanists gravitate towards. The Cult of Cthulhu is receptive to, and tries to be influenced by Higher Forces. So, the Cult of Cthulhu is definitely closer to the Temple of Set. From my experience, the Temple of Set acknowledges and uses Gurdjieff and Ouspensky's 4th Way. The Temple of Set is where I first learned about the 4th Way, and I decided to make that esoteric system the engine or core of our religion.

Question: You often describe the Cult of Cthulhu as a Fourth Way school in the tradition of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky. Please give a brief explanation of the Fourth Way and what role its teachings have in your methodology.

Answer: Gurdjieff has said that the Fourth Way teaches that when it rains the pavement gets wet. Ouspensky might describe The Work as a systematic process of reaching higher states of consciousness and conscience. Girard Haven would describe it as creating a soul. In my own words, I view the Fourth Way as the best chance for mankind to evolve into Godlike beings, which is his birthright. Their role requires me to observe myself. To be patient, disciplined, creative, active, and sly. A student (or Master) of the 4th Way must be cunning!

Wikipedia: George Gurdjieff

Quote:
Pauwels claims Karl Haushofer, the father of geopolitics whose protegee was Deputy Reich Führer Rudolf Hess, as one of the real "seekers after truth" described by Gurdjieff.
Quote:
But what is woman, says Gurdjieff, Just nothing but man's handkerchief. I need a new one every day, Let others for the washing pay.

The Dark Halls of Fourth Way Encounters...Gurdjieff, Hess, Hitler, Haushofer, Crowley, Rasputin

Quote:
G. I. Gurdjieff, (architect of the Fourth Way), was fast becoming famous at a time when there was a focus on leaders around the world. He escaped the revolution in Russia when Rasputin was the Machiavellian dark figure on the scene of Russian mysticism and political intrigue. Gurdjieff later was accused of being a tsarist agent named Lamas Dordjieff as well as other rumors which had his personage as a close confidante of Karl Haushofer, the mentor of Rudolf Hess, and linking him to the creation of the Nazi party.

Gurdjieff & Stalin

Quote:
“There are rumours that Hitler was acquainted with this doctrine of Gurdjieff. Essentially this idea of a man as a machine is the foundation of any totalitarian regime. Gurdjieff is the inspiration of totalitarianism. He is a guru of totalitarianism, despite the fact that he himself was not interested in politics.”

Mikushevich talks about Karl Haushofer and his geopolitical views because “he was acquainted with the experiences of Gurdjieff in Tibet. They tried to discover the true Aryan race in Tibet, and in the faces of Tibetans to find features of Nordic people.” Mikushevich refers to Haushofer, who was a member of the Thule Society, as “a student of Gurdjieff.”

The Aliens of the Golden Dawn

Quote:
Hitler used to say: "We are often abused for being the enemies of the mind and spirit. Well, that is what we are, but in a far deeper sense than bourgeois science, in its idiotic pride, could ever imagine." This is very like what Gurdjieff said to his disciple Ouspensky after having condemned science: "My way is to develop the hidden potentialities of man; a way that is against Nature and against God." This idea of the hidden potentialities of Man is fundamental. It often leads to the rejection of science and a disdain for ordinary human beings. On this level very few men really exist. To be, means to be something different. The ordinary man, "natural" man is nothing but a worm, and the Christians' God nothing but a guardian for worms.
Quote:
Haushofer and the Vril

This secret community was founded, literally, on Bulwer Lytton's novel The Coming Race. The book describes a race of men psychically far in advance of ours. They have acquired powers over themselves and over things that make them almost godlike. For the moment they are in hiding. They live in caves in the centre of the Earth. Soon they will emerge to reign over us.

This appears to be as much as Dr. Ley could tell us. He added with a smile that the disciples believed they had secret knowledge that would enable them to change their race and become the equals of the men hidden in the bowels of the Earth. Methods of concentration, a whole system of internal gymnastics by which they would be transformed. They began their exercises by staring fixedly at an apple cut in half.... We continued our researches.

This Berlin group called itself The Luminous Lodge, or The Vril Society. The vril [the notion of the 'vril' is mentioned for the first time in the works of the French writer Jacolliot, French Consul in Calcutta under the Second Empire. ] is the enormous energy of which we only use a minute proportion in our daily life, the nerve-centre of our potential divinity. Whoever becomes master of the vril will be the master of himself, of others round him and of the world. [Reich's "orgone"...? -B:.B:.]
This should be the only object of our desires, and all our efforts should be directed to that end. All the rest belongs to official psychology, morality, and religions and is worthless.

The world will change: the Lords will emerge from the centre of the Earth. Unless we have made an alliance with them and become Lords ourselves, we shall find ourselves among the slaves, on the dung-heap that will nourish the roots of the New Cities that will arise. [shades of Crowley's Liber AL? -B:.B:.]

The Luminous Lodge [Silver Star, Argon Astron, L.V.X. and latter-day "Lightworkers" woven together in this Luciferian tapestry? -B:.B:.] had associations with the theosophical and Rosicrucian groups. According to Jack Fishman, author of a curious book entitled The Seven Men of Spandau, Karl Haushofer was a member of this lodge. We shall have more to say about him later, when it will be seen that his association with this Vril Society helps to explain certain things.
Quote:
Hitler's aim was neither the founding of a race of supermen, nor the conquest of the world; these were only means towards the realization of the great work he dreamed of. His real aim was to perform an act of creation, a divine operation, the goal of a biological mutation which would result in an unprecedented exaltation of the human race and the "apparition of a new race of heroes and demigods and god-men."
Quote:
We are not suggesting that the reader should study an affiliation Rosy Cross-Bulwer Lytton-Little-Mathers-Crowley- Hitler, or any similar association which would include also Mme Blavatsky and Gurdjieff. Looking for affiliations is a game, like looking for "influences" in literature; when the game is over, the problem is still there. In literature it's a question of genius; in history, of power.

The Golden Dawn is not enough to explain the Thule Group, or the Luminous Lodge, the Ahnenherbe. Naturally there are cross- currents and secret or apparent links between the various groups, which we shall not fail to point out. Like all "little" history, that is an absorbing pastime. But our concern is with "big" history.

We believe that these societies, great or small, related or unrelated, with or without ramifications, are manifestations, more or less apparent and more or less important, of a world other than the one in which we live. Let us call it the world of Evil, in Machen's sense of the word. The truth is, we know just as little about the world of Good. We are living between two worlds, and pretending that this "no-man's-land" is identical with our whole planet. The rise of Nazism was one of those rare moments in the history of our civilization, when a door was noisily and ostentatiously opened on to something " Other." What is strange is that people pretend not to have seen or heard anything apart from the sights and sounds inseparable from war and political strife.

All these movements: the modern Rosy-Cross, Golden Dawn, the German Vril Society (which will bring us to the Thule Group where we shall find Haushofer, Hess and Hitler) were more or less closely associated with the powerful and well organized Theosophical Society. Theosophy added to neo-pagan magic an oriental setting and a Hindu terminology. Or, rather, it provided a link between a certain oriental Satanism and the West.

Theosophy was the name finally given to the whole vast renaissance in the world of magic that affected many thinkers so profoundly at the beginning of the century.

In his study Le Thiosophisme, histoire d'une pseudo-religion, published in 1921, the philosopher Rene Guenon foresaw what was likely to occur. He realized the dangers lurking behind theosophy and the neo-pagan Initiatory groups that were more or less connected with Mme Blavatsky and her sect.

This is what he wrote:

"The false Messiahs we have seen so far have only performed very inferior miracles, and their disciples were probably not very difficult to convert. But who knows what the future has in store? When you reflect that these false Messiahs have never been anything but the more or less unconscious tools of those who conjured them up, and when one thinks more particularly of the series of attempts made in succession by the theosophists, one is forced to the conclusion that these were only trials, experiments as it were, which will be renewed in various forms until success is achieved, and which in the meantime invariably produce a somewhat disquieting effect. Not that we believe that the theosophists, any more than the occultists and the spiritualists, are strong enough by themselves to carry out successfully an enterprise of this nature. But might there not be, behind all these movements, something far more dangerous which their leaders perhaps know nothing about, being themselves in turn the unconscious tools of a higher power?"

Above text excerpted from:

The Dawn of Magic by Louis Pauwells & Jacques Bergier
1st published in France under the title Le Matin des Magiciens 1960 by Editions Gallimard, Paris

Sufism and the Way of Blame

Quote:
J. G. Bennett was convinced that Gurdjieff's greatest influence came from a group of proto-Naqshbandis in Central Asia, a brotherhood later verified by HasanŞuşud as the Khwajagan, or Masters.
Quote:
HasanŞuşud, a rather enigmatic Sufi in Istanbul, had disguised his former affiliation with the Naqshbandiyya and with another group that referred to itself as the Nuriyya-Malamatiyya (in Turkish, Nuriyye-Melamiyye). He had revealed that he had a rather low opinion of Gurdjieff as a "thief of the tradition." It is hard to tell which tradition Şuşud was referring to, although he probably meant the Khwajagan or the malamatiyya, or both of them comingled together.

A common element that tied together Gurdjieff, the Shah family, Bennett, and Şuşud was that all of them referred to the Masters of Central Asia. All of them also posited that the Khwajagan had functioned as a rather elite group within greater Sufism; yet all of them, with the exception of Şuşud, seem to have deviated from the central teachings of Sufism, which emphasized the nothingness of human beings next to God. Instead, the followers of Gurdjieff, Bennett, and Idries Shah would all continue to promote a form of occult elitism that emphasized a hidden hierarchy in Sufism composed of superhumans who operated beyond, behind, or outside of normative Sufism and Islam. And this idea was inimical to the original teachings of the Khwajagan.
Quote:
The late Annemarie Schimmel spoke for a lot of people in the academy, amongst the Orders and the solitaries of the Sufi universe when she asserted in her MYSTICAL DIMENSIONS OF ISLAM that students of Sufism would do well to take Idries Shah (and by extension Gurdjieff and Bennett) with modest grains of salt - as neither one of these names are authentic representatives of the Tradition. JG Bennett is especially problematic since he was an agent of British intelligence (a spy for MI6) whose involvement with Idries Shah and Sufism really had more to do with Anglo-European colonialist/imperialist adventurism and geostrategic designs on Eurasia than the Tradition itself.
Quote:
However as Columbia University Professor Hamid Dabashi has pointed out, Islamophobia and Anti-Semitism are species of the same thing.

Sufism and the Way of Blame: Hidden Sources of a Sacred Psychology - Yannis Toussulis Ph.D



Quote:
"Amazon review"
The first section discusses the impact of several men who introduced Sufi (or quasi-Sufi) ideas into the West: Hazrat Inayat Khan, Idries Shah, Gurdjieff, and John G. Bennett.

On a Spaceship with Beelzebub: By a Grandson of Gurdjieff



Quote:
"Editorial Review"
Spiritual "schools" of most any kind are nonsense; all development is self-development, and the kinds of methods used in what is left of the Gurdjieff organizations are merely self-deception and self-projection, often nearly on the scale of psychoanalysis and organized religion. If one reads between the lines in this very well-written and honest book, this becomes more than apparent in the behavior of pseudo-gurus like Stavely and Pentland - and contrary to some reports the descriptions in this book ring true, not just of those individuals but all those who set themselves up as "mystical authorities", including Gurdjieff himself. The only flaw the book has is that Kheridan never seems to realize that it isn't just his teachers that are limited, but the whole enterprise of spiritual search through dedication to such imaginary "masters".

Quote:
"Amazon review"
Writers of spiritual philosophy could learn a lot about communciating their ideas by reading this slender, marvelously clear document. The author distills an enormous amount of complex material in a brief, accurate, and wholly understandable format. Don't let anyone tell you that complex ideas necessitate complex language. When someone really understands a subject, he is generally able to speak about it simply. And this author provides a beautiful case in point.
Quote:
"Amazon review"
This book is unrivalled as the clearest presentation of Gurdjieffian mythos, ethos & logos. For anyone seeking transparent elucidation of the "work", this is the best starting point. Instead of meandering through the ponderous & subjective musings of Nicoll, Bennet, Orage and Ouspensky, here you got in a nutshell:

1.GIG's cosmology: a highly original ( this is an understatement ) variant of Neoplatonist emanationism combined with Blavatskyan planes/worlds; all set in a pseudoscientific lingo using ordinary chemical symbols ( Carbon, Oxygen, etc.) in a bizarre quasi-alchemical setting.

2.GIG's psychology: a modern-day gnosticism without "divine spark". His famous "centres" ( physical/vital, emotional, intellectual ) are old Platonic & Thomist archaic psychology recast in a deceptively "oriental" mode- in fact, Gurdjieffian esoteric physiology is Western ( his centres having little in common with chakras ), while the entire raison for the "work" is Eastern: in essence, this is activation & empowering of the already existent, but numb & deluded jiva ( Tantric tradition ), spiritual seed ( Valentinian gnosticism ) or vijnana ( Vajrayana Buddhism ). GIG's emphasis on non-existence of "I" is just a pedagogic trick.

3. And, last: it was GIG who has brought enneagram to the West. This ancient Hermetic symbol, serving primarily as a glyph delineating stages of alchemical transmutation of a psyche, has become, due to hilarious unpredictable New Age ravings, a sort of universal bestseller on the pop-psychological supermarket.

What to say at the end ? Read it- it's a truly delightful mystery story on the search of the miraculous.

Gurdjieff, mind-control and MPD

The Gurdjieff Con - Debriefing the Gurdjieff work

The Great Work

The Unknown Hitler: Nazi Roots in the Occult

Hitler Was a British Agent



Stalin's British Training



Quote:
Occult Royalty: Gurdjieff teaches Stalin and Hitler - p. 189



December 08, 2011 11:26AM
Sandman
Date Added: 06/12/2008
Posts: 295
Re: Desteni

In compiling the basic material for students of "Desteni", Bernard Poolman has stolen ideas from a variety of well-known sources, Gurdjieff being one of them.

Desteni members continually write, "stop!" and refer to stopping thought, feelings, emotions and pictures. Stopping the mind is probably one of the most common techniques given to members of various kinds of cults.

The Desteni practice of saying ‘STOP!’ is in particular very similar to the Stop! Exercise of Gurdjieff... [[url=http://www.endlesssearch.co.uk/exercises_stop.htm]www.endlesssearch.co.uk[/url]]

Desteni FAQ - STOP!! and UNCOVER YOURSELF - part 1
[[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1ypwd8qA6w&hd=1]www.youtube.com[/url]]

Sunette Spies appeared on video using the name, "Gurdjieff"...
Gurdjieff 1 from Afterlife -The unification of man as I am
[[url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2309850886905135035&q=Gurdjieff+Desteni]video.google.com[/url]]
Gurdjieff 2 from Afterlife - WHY Man must Unify
[[url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8924244247747182778&q=Gurdjieff+Desteni]video.google.com[/url]]

In the Gurdjieffian Work, the

"Personality is something inauthentic, a sort of fluctuating mask a human being adopts in dealing with the world (inner and outer).

Essentially, it can be compared to ancient "persona", false series of "I"s or "acting" spurious self one uncounsciously adopts as optimal (from their viewpoint) in dealings with the life's challenges." and The purpose of the Work is to self-remember, to wake up from the ordinary condition of sleep or unawareness." (from [[url=http://www.kheper.net/topics/Gurdjieff/Gurdjieff_and_Work.html]www.kheper.net[/url]])

The Gurdjieffian Work is supposed to involve the effort to "wake up" from the state of being an unconscious automaton. Bernard Poolman very often talks about the personality being inauthentic. Waking up from being an "unconscious automaton" would be the same as in Desteni erasing the mind to no longer be an "organic robot".

The Desteni concept of "resonant symbols" or "resonant personality design" and Structural Resonance Alignment (as Poolman rants about in texts and numerous videos) has been manufactured out of information taken from various sources including The Enneagram as utilised by G.I. Gurdjieff and others...

[[url=http://www.endlesssearch.co.uk/philo_enneagramtalk.htm]www.endlesssearch.co.uk[/url]]

Enneagram of Personality
[[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram_of_Personality]en.wikipedia.org[/url]]

It would be possible to deconstruct Desteni from beginning to end showing exactly where Poolman has plagiarized ideas to invent it, because it is so tranAmazon reviewsparent to anyone with background knowledge in these subjects, but I have some doubts as to how it would be of much use. It is more important that Poolman and his Desteni scam are STOPPED, that is, put out of action, rather than discussed like an academic subject.


December 08, 2011 11:40AM
Stoic
Date Added: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1953
Re: Desteni

Hitler and Stalin were British Agents?
Operation Winnie the Pooh?

Who wrote these, Bernard?

Operation Winnie the Churchill I could accept as he was a recognised and very successful war-monger in his youth, steered an embattled Britain through a rough war and then lost his elected position as leader in peacetime--
But Operation Winnie the Pooh?

Someone's having a laugh.


December 08, 2011 12:27PM
vivian111
Date Added: 11/24/2011
Posts: 25
Re: Desteni

Quote:
Sandman
The Desteni concept of "resonant symbols" or "resonant personality design" and Structural Resonance Alignment (as Poolman rants about in texts and numerous videos) has been manufactured out of information taken from various sources including The Enneagram as utilised by G.I. Gurdjieff and others...

[[url=http://www.endlesssearch.co.uk/philo_enneagramtalk.htm]www.endlesssearch.co.uk[/url]]

Enneagram of Personality
[[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram_of_Personality]en.wikipedia.org[/url]]

It would be possible to deconstruct Desteni from beginning to end showing exactly where Poolman has plagiarized ideas to invent it, because it is so transparent to anyone with background knowledge in these subjects, but I have some doubts as to how it would be of much use. It is more important that Poolman and his Desteni scam are STOPPED, that is, put out of action, rather than discussed like an academic subject.

For me personally, to make sense of my own cult experience required research in many fields. The group I was involved in mostly utilized Gurdjieff, so I found it quite beneficial to learn of Gurdjieff's true character and motives, after I have revered him for so long.

Another book I found helpful was this one:

Taking With the Left Hand: Enneagram Craze, People of the Bookmark, & The Mouravieff "Phenomenon" - William Patrick Patterson



Quote:
"Editorial Review"
A lucid and compelling account of conflict and charlatanism surrounding the Gurdjieff Work, one of the most important alternative spiritual movements of our day. The first book to explore one of the taboo subjects of our time—spiritual theft, distortion and appropriation—Patterson details and documents how a principal symbol of the teaching has been stolen and commercialized by the so-called enneagram community; how Robert Burton, founder of the Fellowship of Friends, distorted the teaching; and how Mouravieff, a Russian esotericist, plagiarized and appropriated it.

Quote:
"Amazon Review"
In our society so many people want the quick lesson for transformation so that they can begin 'teaching' for either power or money or both. The greed and arrogance of some people mixes with the suggestibility of others for disastrous results.

Secondly, I am glad because through these three examples Patterson discusses the broader issues of esotericism. He shows how "esoteric ideas and practices are powerful in themselves, and when introduced into secular life they will necessarily be taken over by the ego and used for its own glorification and the domination of others."

Quote:
"Amazon Review"
During the late 1960's, a number people successfully presented themselves as teachers or "gurus" of the Gurdjieff "work." They themselves had not studied with Gurdjieff or anyone in the direct line of transmission of this teaching, but a number of newly published books had begun to appear and this material gave them an intellectual framework from which they could operate.

Capitalizing on the vitality of Gurdjieff's teaching, and the new thirst for eastern spiritual ideas (but without having themselves received any proper training), these "faux" teachers propagated a faulty version of the teaching and stole some of its ideas to invent their own pseudo spiritual path. Unfortunately, they often developed a significant following of students, who mistakenly thought they were studying genuine material.

In Taking with the Left Hand, author William Patterson offers a detailed and clear account of these spiritual thefts and deceptions, focusing particularly on the misuse of the enneagram for explaining personality types, the "faux" teacher Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Friends, and the wholesale appropriation of Gurdjieff's teaching by one B. P. Mouravieff, who argued that it was the "esoteric" tradition of the Eastern Church.

Quote:
Stoic
Hitler and Stalin were British Agents?
Operation Winnie the Pooh?

Those books explore the notion that The Tavistock Institute might have a hand in many cults (and fascist regimes), a thought I'm not dismissing out of hand. I don't agree with many of their assertions, but some things I consider plausible. Tavistock was certainly instrumental in the development and fine-tuning of brainwashing techniques. But this avenue of research will always rely heavily on conjecture and speculation, it cannot be otherwise.



December 08, 2011 01:20PM
Stoic
Date Added: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1953
Re: Desteni

'Those books explore the notion that The Tavistock Institute might have a hand in many cults (and fascist regimes),'

Yes, I've heard that one--and even attended one session at the clinic once. (decided it was useless)

Its like the MK Ultra conspiracy theories (something Bernard has imbibed, no doubt, given his fondness for world domination)--there is tangential documentary evidence that indicates a bit of a strategic plan but the scope is so vast--and us not that slick--that I doubt it could ever be pulled off in its entirety.
We live in a messy, sick machine maybe but what powers the machine are ordinary people--and they get fed up of the crap and the dramatics eventually, thankfully.


December 08, 2011 01:51PM
truthbheard
Date Added: 10/31/2011
Posts: 14
Re: Desteni

Just amzing that the members can't see this. VivianIII, you mentioned the cult
that you were in (and have since left) used the teachings Gurdjieff. Apparently
you can see a likeness between Desteni and the cult that you belonged to. Was
there a 'leader' in your cult? If so, did he or she, give suggestions as to what
to write about?

I will read as much of the above info that I can, but I think we have got to continue
our quest to alert the proper authorities. As much as Bernard Poolman would love
to control the world, he doesn't. We still have governments, banks, civil authorities
whose sole purpose is to protect it's citizens.

Just let me say that I don't believe that Desteni is riding under the radar. They are
known to many.


December 08, 2011 03:11PM
Stoic
Date Added: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1953
Re: Desteni

'so I found it quite beneficial to learn of Gurdjieff's true character and motives, after I have revered him for so long.'

So did you ever dicover his true character and motives, vivian111, and do you still revere him--present tense?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2017 08:07PM by rrmoderator.

Here is page 119 of the pages that were lost from this thread since the domain name was changed. Some links might be out of date but links to this forum have been updated.

...............................................................................................................................................................................................

December 08, 2011 03:15PM
vivian111
Date Added: 11/24/2011
Posts: 25
Re: Desteni

Quote:
truthbheard
Just amzing that the members can't see this.

Well, not really. I had to do quite a bit of digging to discover those things about Gurdjieff. Gurdjieff is still considered by many deluded and deceived souls as one of the greatest spiritual teachers of the 20th century (God help us…). It was only when I discovered the terms “left hand path” and “right hand path” that I made most of my unpleasant discoveries. He was also misogynistic.

Quote:
truthbheard
VivianIII, you mentioned the cult
that you were in (and have since left) used the teachings Gurdjieff. Apparently
you can see a likeness between Desteni and the cult that you belonged to. Was
there a 'leader' in your cult? If so, did he or she, give suggestions as to what
to write about?

Yes, there are many similarities between the cult I was in and Desteni, that’s why I decided to contribute here for a while. Yes, we also had a leader (all cults work the same, with a strict hierarchy). In Gurdjieff groups you are told to be completely honest, because others need to mirror you, so you can “know thyself”. It’s those “confessions” that are used against people who leave the cult, should they ever decide to speak out.

Quote:
truthbheard
As much as Bernard Poolman would love to control the world

I checked their website stats , not much going on there. They won't control the world anytime soon with those stats...only 19 sites linking in.



December 08, 2011 03:42PM
vivian111
Date Added: 11/24/2011
Posts: 25
Re: Desteni

Quote:
Stoic
So did you ever dicover his true character and motives, vivian111

Yes, and it was quite an unpleasant discovery.

Quote:
Stoic
and do you still revere him--present tense

Absolutely not, I consider him to be a left-hand-path initiate, and now that I think back on his teachings (I have all his books), I can see how it's negative philosophy. At the time I was completely oblivious to it, but my esoteric knowledge was very poor when I got involved. Cults target spiritual neophytes.

To me personally, Jiddu Krishnamurti's Dissolution Speech he gave when he disassociated himself from the Theosophical Society and dissolved the Order of the Star - August 3, 1929, are as true today as it was then.

Jiddu Krishnamurti: Dissolution Speech

Quote:
"Jiddu Krishnamurti"

Dissolution Speech

The Order of the Star in the East was founded in 1911 to proclaim the coming of the World Teacher. Krishnamurti was made Head of the Order. On August 3, 1929, the opening day of the annual Star Camp at Ommen, Holland, Krishnamurti dissolved the Order before 3000 members. Below is the full text of the talk he gave on that occasion:

***************************************************

“We are going to discuss this morning the dissolution of the Order of the Star. Many people will be delighted, and others will be rather sad. It is a question neither for rejoicing nor for sadness, because it is inevitable, as I am going to explain. “You may remember the story of how the devil and a friend of his were walking down the street, when they saw ahead of them a man stoop down and pick up something from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his pocket. The friend said to the devil, “What did that man pick up?” “He picked up a piece of Truth,” said the devil. “That is a very bad business for you, then,” said his friend. “Oh, not at all,” the devil replied, “I am going to let him organize it."

I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organize it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallized; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others. This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley. If you would attain to the mountain-top you must pass through the valley, climb the steeps, unafraid of the dangerous precipices.

So that is the first reason, from my point of view, why the Order of the Star should be dissolved. In spite of this, you will probably form other Orders, you will continue to belong to other organizations searching for Truth. I do not want to belong to any organization of a spiritual kind, please understand this. I would make use of an organization which would take me to London, for example; this is quite a different kind of organization, merely mechanical, like the post or the telegraph. I would use a motor car or a steamship to travel, these are only physical mechanisms which have nothing whatever to do with spirituality. Again, I maintain that no organization can lead man to spirituality.

If an organization be created for this purpose, it becomes a crutch, a weakness, a bondage, and must cripple the individual, and prevent him from growing, from establishing his uniqueness, which lies in the discovery for himself of that absolute, unconditioned Truth. So that is another reason why I have decided, as I happen to be the Head of the Order, to dissolve it. No one has persuaded me to this decision. “This is no magnificent deed, because I do not want followers, and I mean this. The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth. I am not concerned whether you pay attention to what I say or not. I want to do a certain thing in the world and I am going to do it with unwavering concentration. I am concerning myself with only one essential thing: to set man free. I desire to free him from all cages, from all fears, and not to found religions, new sects, nor to establish new theories and new philosophies. Then you will naturally ask me why I go the world over, continually speaking. I will tell you for what reason I do this: not because I desire a following, not because I desire a special group of special disciples. (How men love to be different from their fellow-men, however ridiculous, absurd and trivial their distinctions may be! I do not want to encourage that absurdity.) I have no disciples, no apostles, either on earth or in the realm of spirituality. “Nor is it the lure of money, nor the desire to live a comfortable life, which attracts me. If I wanted to lead a comfortable life I would not come to a Camp or live in a damp country! I am speaking frankly because I want this settled once and for all. I do not want these childish discussions year after year.

One newspaper reporter, who interviewed me, considered it a magnificent act to dissolve an organization in which there were thousands and thousands of members. To him it was a great act because, he said: “What will you do afterwards, how will you live? You will have no following, people will no longer listen to you.” If there are only five people who will listen, who will live, who have their faces turned towards eternity, it will be sufficient. Of what use is it to have thousands who do not understand, who are fully embalmed in prejudice, who do not want the new, but would rather translate the new to suit their own sterile, stagnant selves? If I speak strongly, please do not misunderstand me, it is not through lack of compassion. If you go to a surgeon for an operation, is it not kindness on his part to operate even if he cause you pain? So, in like manner, if I speak straightly, it is not through lack of real affection–on the contrary.

As I have said, I have only one purpose: to make man free, to urge him towards freedom, to help him to break away from all limitations, for that alone will give him eternal happiness, will give him the unconditioned realization of the self.

Because I am free, unconditioned, whole–not the part, not the relative, but the whole Truth that is eternal–I desire those, who seek to understand me to be free; not to follow me, not to make out of me a cage which will become a religion, a sect. Rather should they be free from all fears–from the fear of religion, from the fear of salvation, from the fear of spirituality, from the fear of love, from the fear of death, from the fear of life itself. As an artist paints a picture because he takes delight in that painting, because it is his self-expression, his glory, his well-being, so I do this and not because I want anything from anyone. “You are accustomed to authority, or to the atmosphere of authority, which you think will lead you to spirituality. You think and hope that another can, by his extraordinary powers--a miracle–transport you to this realm of eternal freedom which is Happiness. Your whole outlook on life is based on that authority.

You have listened to me for three years now, without any change taking place except in the few. Now analyze what I am saying, be critical, so that you may understand thoroughly, fundamentally. When you look for an authority to lead you to spirituality, you are bound automatically to build an organization around that authority. By the very creation of that organization, which, you think, will help this authority to lead you to spirituality, you are held in a cage.

If I talk frankly, please remember that I do so, not out of harshness, not out of cruelty, not out of the enthusiasm of my purpose, but because I want you to understand what I am saying. That is the reason why you are here, and it would be a waste of time if I did not explain clearly, decisively, my point of view. “For eighteen years you have been preparing for this event, for the Coming of the World Teacher. For eighteen years you have organized, you have looked for someone who would give a new delight to your hearts and minds, who would transform your whole life, who would give you a new understanding; for someone who would raise you to a new plane of life, who would give you a new encouragement, who would set you free–and now look what is happening! Consider, reason with yourselves, and discover in what way that belief has made you different–not with the superficial difference of the wearing of a badge, which is trivial, absurd. In what manner has such a belief swept away all the unessential things of life? That is the only way to judge: in what way are you freer, greater, more dangerous to every Society which is based on the false and the unessential? In what way have the members of this organization of the Star become different? “As I said, you have been preparing for eighteen years for me. I do not care if you believe that I am the World–Teacher or not. That is of very little importance. Since you belong to the organization of the Order of the Star, you have given your sympathy, your energy, acknowledging that Krishnamurti is the World–Teacher– partially or wholly: wholly for those who are really seeking, only partially for those who are satisfied with their own half-truths.

You have been preparing for eighteen years, and look how many difficulties there are in the way of your understanding, how many complications, how many trivial things. Your prejudices, your fears, your authorities, your churches new and old–all these, I maintain, are a barrier to understanding. I cannot make myself clearer than this. I do not want you to agree with me, I do not want you to follow me, I want you to understand what I am saying. “This understanding is necessary because your belief has not transformed you but only complicated you, and because you are not willing to face things as they are. You want to have your own gods–new gods instead of the old, new religions instead of the old, new forms instead of the old–all equally valueless, all barriers, all limitations, all crutches. Instead of old spiritual distinctions you have new spiritual distinctions, instead of old worships you have new worships. You are all depending for your spirituality on someone else, for your happiness on someone else, for your enlightenment on someone else; and although you have been preparing for me for eighteen years, when I say all these things are unnecessary, when I say that you must put them all away and look within yourselves for the enlightenment, for the glory, for the purification, and for the incorruptibility of the self, not one of you is willing to do it. There may be a few, but very, very few. So why have an organization?

Why have false, hypocritical people following me, the embodiment of Truth? Please remember that I am not saying something harsh or unkind, but we have reached a situation when you must face things as they are. I said last year that I would not compromise. Very few listened to me then. This year I have made it absolutely clear. I do not know how many thousands throughout the world–members of the Order–have been preparing for me for eighteen years, and yet now they are not willing to listen unconditionally, wholly, to what I say.

As I said before, my purpose is to make men unconditionally free, for I maintain that the only spirituality is the incorruptibility of the self which is eternal, is the harmony between reason and love. This is the absolute, unconditioned Truth which is Life itself. I want therefore to set man free, rejoicing as the bird in the clear sky, unburdened, independent, ecstatic in that freedom . And I, for whom you have been preparing for eighteen years, now say that you must be free of all these things, free from your complications, your entanglements. For this you need not have an organization based on spiritual belief. Why have an organization for five or ten people in the world who understand, who are struggling, who have put aside all trivial things? And for the weak people, there can be no organization to help them to find the Truth, because Truth is in everyone; it is not far, it is not near; it is eternally there.

Organizations cannot make you free. No man from outside can make you free; nor can organized worship, nor the immolation of yourselves for a cause, make you free; nor can forming yourselves into an organization, nor throwing yourselves into works, make you free. You use a typewriter to write letters, but you do not put it on an altar and worship it. But that is what you are doing when organizations become your chief concern.

How many members are there in it?” That is the first question I am asked by all newspaper reporters. “How many followers have you? By their number we shall judge whether what you say is true or false.” I do not know how many there are. I am not concerned with that. As I said, if there were even one man who had been set free, that were enough.

Again, you have the idea that only certain people hold the key to the Kingdom of Happiness. No one holds it. No one has the authority to hold that key. That key is your own self, and in the development and the purification and in the incorruptibility of that self alone is the Kingdom of Eternity.

So you will see how absurd is the whole structure that you have built, looking for external help, depending on others for your comfort, for your happiness, for your strength. These can only be found within yourselves.

You are accustomed to being told how far you have advanced, what is your spiritual status. How childish! Who but yourself can tell you if you are beautiful or ugly within? Who but yourself can tell you if you are incorruptible? You are not serious in these things.

But those who really desire to understand, who are looking to find that which is eternal, without beginning and without an end, will walk together with a greater intensity, will be a danger to everything that is unessential, to unrealities, to shadows. And they will concentrate, they will become the flame, because they understand. Such a body we must create, and that is my purpose. Because of that real understanding there will be true friendship. Because of that true friendship–which you do not seem to know–there will be real cooperation on the part of each one. And this not because of authority, not because of salvation, not because of immolation for a cause, but because you really understand, and hence are capable of living in the eternal. This is a greater thing than all pleasure, than all sacrifice.

So these are some of the reasons why, after careful consideration for two years, I have made this decision. It is not from a momentary impulse. I have not been persuaded to it by anyone. I am not persuaded in such things. For two years I have been thinking about this, slowly, carefully, patiently, and I have now decided to disband the Order, as I happen to be its Head. You can form other organizations and expect someone else. With that I am not concerned, nor with creating new cages, new decorations for those cages. My only concern is to set men absolutely, unconditionally free."

***************************************************

Jiddu Krishnamurti: Truth, of which I speak:

Quote:
"Jiddu Krishnamurti"
But in a hundred years' time I don't think it will matter much whether you are disappointed or not. Truth, of which I speak, will remain - not your fantasies or your disappointments.



December 09, 2011 09:00AM
Sandman
Date Added: 06/12/2008
Posts: 293
Re: Desteni

If "Truth is a Pathless Land" as JK Krishnamurti said then there won't be any initiates on the right or the left hand side of a path. Krishnamurti was reacting to the Theosophists' notion of "the path", which was dogma that had been drummed into him from an early age. In Desteni they talk about "walking the process" which is not dissimilar to being on the path, a la Theosophical occultism.

Poolman has been influenced by several con artists, some of a Theosophical bent, but also Osho Rajneesh [www.culteducation.com]

Baird T. Spalding
[[url=http://www.bairdtspalding.org/frequently-asked-questions-about-baird-t-spalding]www.bairdtspalding.org[/url]]

and David Icke
[[url=http://www.publiceye.org/Icke/IckeBackgrounder.htm]www.publiceye.org[/url]]

The Desteni "self-forgiveness" trick has been cribbed from New Age icon, Louise Hay and there's some Course in Miracles there too.

Unlike these other sources, however, there is a problem they have with Desteni in that Poolman and Sunette Spies are both hopelessly incompetent writers and public speakers, and the output of the Desteni organization is of an overall sub-standard quality. It manages to function only because they continually spam the internet with hundreds of videos and blogs. They have no real compelling content that would hold up anywhere but on sites like YouTube or on a web forum on subjects like channeling, reptilian conspiracy theories, ascended masters and UFOs, which is basically how they started.


December 09, 2011 12:00PM
vivian111
Date Added: 11/24/2011
Posts: 25
Re: Desteni

Quote:
Sandman
If "Truth is a Pathless Land" as JK Krishnamurti said then there won't be any initiates on the right or the left hand side of a path.
Yes of course, but I think his message was aimed at those on the right-hand-path falling prey to destructive cults, which the Theosophical Society undoubtedly was. It's a spiritual dead-end. He obviously felt very strongly about this, and tried to fix it the best way he knew how.

It stays a powerful gesture, and I think his words bring comfort to many traumatized ex-cultists. No-one has a monopoly on the truth.



December 09, 2011 12:54PM
truthbheard
Date Added: 10/31/2011
Posts: 14
Re: Desteni

So true, VivianIII. So one has a monopoly on the truth. You seemed to have handled
your 'exit' from the cult in a very wise way. You have done 'tons' (and I mean tons!!)
of research. From what I read, it has helped you a great deal, and you in turn are sharing
your findings with us on RR. Thank you for that.

You have given me a great deal of hope for my friend, that he will see the light and
leave Desteni. I think it's a given that Bernard and the members (at least some of them)
come on RR to see what is being said, and 'unearthed' about them.

Does anyone have any info on how the city that the Desteni farm is in, feels about it?
I think that would be a help, afterall these people are there in SA and may know much
more than we do. Any ideas?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2011 12:55PM by truthbheard.


December 09, 2011 04:12PM
vivian111
Date Added: 11/24/2011
Posts: 25
Re: Desteni

Quote:
truthbheard
You seemed to have handled
your 'exit' from the cult in a very wise way. You have done 'tons' (and I mean tons!!)
of research. From what I read, it has helped you a great deal, and you in turn are sharing
your findings with us on RR. Thank you for that.

:)

Quote:
truthbheard
You have given me a great deal of hope for my friend, that he will see the light and
leave Desteni.

There's always hope.

Quote:
Sandman
Unlike these other sources, however, there is a problem they have with Desteni in that Poolman and Sunette Spies are both hopelessly incompetent writers and public speakers, and the output of the Desteni organization is of an overall sub-standard quality.

I see what you mean. I just sampled one of Sunette's Youtube videos, but it was almost too embarrassing to watch.

this one

"I'm not even more higher than you"............ouch!

Hopefully she channels an English language teacher soon.



December 12, 2011 04:28PM
Stoic
Date Added: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1953
Re: Desteni

Hopefully she channels an English language teacher soon.

Rather a snobbish, ivory tower remark to make about a native Africaans speaker, Viv. Did you read pick that up from your reading about Hitler and Stalin and their pal Winnie the Pooh?

Who might you be channelling after such copious reading?

Try putting Krishnamurti in the search slot here, Corboy has done copious digging into his unsavourary personal habits for our edification--wouldn't want you to miss out on that as you like such an ecletic selection of bedside reading.


December 13, 2011 04:25AM
vivian111
Date Added: 11/24/2011
Posts: 25
Re: Desteni

Quote:
"Stoic"
Rather a snobbish, ivory tower remark to make about a native Africaans speaker, Viv. Did you read pick that up from your reading about Hitler and Stalin and their pal Winnie the Pooh?

Who might you be channelling after such copious reading?

I won't respond to these insidious and sarcastic remarks of yours. The intent of my participation here was to help.

Quote:
"Stoic"
Try putting Krishnamurti in the search slot here, Corboy has done copious digging into his unsavourary personal habits for our edification--wouldn't want you to miss out on that as you like such an ecletic selection of bedside reading.

I have all his books, they speak for themselves. Those with eyes to see, will see, and the haters will always hate, it's the only thing they know how to do.

I don't venerate Krishnamurti, he was just a man, and he made mistakes, like everyone. By their fruits you shall know them, and Krishnamurti's fruits speak for themselves.

By the way, "channelling" is spelled with one "l" ;)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 04:31AM by vivian111.



December 13, 2011 04:40AM
vivian111
Date Added: 11/24/2011
Posts: 25
Re: Desteni

Funny, whenever Tavistock is mentioned, the attack dogs and defamers always crawl out of their holes.

That's always a sure sign that I've touched a sensitive spot.

I see you are familiar with these techniques:

Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation

No. 5 and no. 18 in particular. Your slip is showing.

Now that I know Tavistock is a bit sensitive for you, let me include these:

Tavistock

Tavistock Agenda Timeline

The Tavistock Institute of Human Relations: Shaping the Moral, Spiritual, Cultural, and Political - John Coleman





Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 05:03AM by vivian111.


December 13, 2011 06:01AM
Natasha
Date Added: 08/21/2011
Posts: 16
Re: Desteni

Actually the illiteracy winds me up, too. It wouldn't so much, if it wasn't that she's pretending to channel some very erudite people....