Dear dspak08,
It looks like every communication with someone from NKT has to be started with a correction or refuting a certain position. So I do it also here:
I do not present the NKS.
And for the purpose to prevent other speculations: I also do not present the Dalai Lama or FPMT or anybody else.
From a neutral pov the NKS is neither correct nor wrong it was created with a certain purpose, mainly to help those who left NKT or to help those who wish to leave NKT to be able to do their steps to leave NKT and to find a new beginning. In general if someone leaves a healthy group or a healthy teacher such a group would be redundant. Just try to set up a “FPMT survivor” group and look how many former or present members from FPMT you can attract and what they write: there will be a huge difference.
From the point of view of the purpose I think NKS fulfils its purpose and it is very worthwhile. Many people acknowledged how much it helped them and how important it is/was to them. Some of them had to read 6000 posts to get clarity. Only some very few (maybe 3-5 persons) expressed their discontentment with the complete group. To put down such a forum as a “hate group” and that David and I wish to destroy NKT is plain wrong. I think it is just very correct to reject such claims, isn’t it?
I don’t see it that way as you claim: “As you present it, there is of course nothing wrong with it.” Why do you say this?
It is new for me that someone from NKT openly without pseudo-compassion (mixed with pride) excuses. I acknowledge this.
However, I doubt that this is really a honest approach of NKT in general. I suppose it is just a new tactic or again damage control, based on what NKT recognized as being appreciated by outsiders. I doubt that it is really based on a change of inner attitudes and a clear recognition what of the own actions led to such a situation.
If you look how this Rick Ross Forum started and other forums started and turned out I doubt such a approach very much. But it could be that you as an individual make an exception here. As long as GKG or NKT leadership does not officially excuse and correct the wrong claims at their truth page I doubt that any change towards honesty has taken place. I just see such claims as a new tactic or as your personal approach. We’ll see what actions NKT/WSS will perform which proof what you say.
Regarding the NKT teachings, my understanding is: the faults lie direct in the NKT leadership and in wrong or superficial teachings, especially distorted teachings of the teacher-student-relationship and on “pure view”. Many NKT teachings are also abused (maybe most times unintentionally) to bind the people into NKT and to split them away from mainstream Buddhism and the Buddhist Sangha. I think I stated my points on this already elsewhere – if needed I will take time to go into details.
As I was a devoted student of GKG and a NKT teacher and learned now since 8 years what the Buddhist masters outside of “NKT world” teach and how different and more deep their teachings are, I have the opportunity to compare and to judge the teachings I learned in NKT.
I don’t know if you have such an opportunity of comparisons? At least you can see in this point we disagree. Also I see the faults in NKT as dependent arising.
My observations are: there are not only naïve Western followers who follow blindly one teacher, his teachings and his protector; and let him do what ever he likes judging every action of him as correct “because he is a Buddha”, “he knows the three times whereas I do not”, there is also Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, who from my point of view is no authentic teacher anymore. He leads his student towards pride, sectarianism and hostility and anger against the Dalai Lama and the Gelug school, and makes them believe that he is the last teacher who is upholding Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition “purely” – he himself made him to an autocrat in NKT. In situation of crisis he blames others and states he has made no faults, and NKT has made no faults. He claimed even “I am NKT”. Instead of teaching dependent arising, karma and the affliction as the source of problems, he blames others, including his own students. Of course his students believe he is right “because he is a Buddha”, “a fully accomplished meditation master”.
It looks like that GKG changed so dramatically since his arrival in the West that the person who once came to Manjshuri Institute and the person who spreads so much hate and lies about the Dalai Lama are of two different entities.
Sorry to say it, but I think he is a misleading teacher. I see him as a human being for whom and whose work I have full respect, nevertheless as his teachings and presentation of Dharma install mind poisons and sectarianism in the mind of students and finally separate them from all the living holy masters, I can not advise him as a Buddhist teacher.
Saying this, I wish to oppose your claim that only the students of NKT made faults. The faults which you may perceive are just a reflection what is going on in NKT’s leadership. E.g. Geshe-la knew about the sexual abuses, he knows the Vinaya, he did anything to cover the situation until finally it became public. The same happened with Gen Thubten, persons who work now to denounce the Dalai Lama as a “hypocrite” …
I am completely convinced that the NKT leadership wishes neither to be a sect or a cult nor be labelled as this. Nobody wishes this. I am convinced also that Geshe-la only wishes the best for his students and the students only the best for others. This is what they say and this is what they think, yet there is something going on in NKT, in the mind, which corrupts such noble aims. I think, this has to be investigated more deeply. If time is taken for honest and open, self-critical introspection, without fear or pressure then there is the chance to see the root of the developments which may be felt now – at least by you – as being wrong. Blaming others is the wrong way.
The last opportunity to do such an introspection were the sexual scandals within NKT. Sadly NKT started all their typical patterns: in the beginning the blame was thrown back on the critic, the NKT secretary started a “disinformation campaign”, then Dharma teachings were abused to stop open discussion about it (to speak about the issue in NKT forums was portrayed by GKG as “meaningless activities” and all NKT chats were closed due to his orders). Instead of taking time to face the own situation thoroughly and to invite outsiders or experienced Sangha for help, or to be open to check what the internal sources of these events are, NKT started a world wide media campaign accusing the Dalai Lama of all what they do themselves, having no shame to spread their misleading messages at every place in the internet, and attacking every opponent as a liar - a very fine mean to distract NKT members from introspection, doubts, questions, and to clean the own place. So where is the change? I think it is also incorrect that GKG accused Steven W. of that he is guilty of the situation, it is dependent arising what happened and GKG’s own actions are involved in this, his own policies, his own views and his own teachings or what he didn’t teach and that NKT split away from its root, the Gelug school.
If NKT really wants to clean the situation, there is a lot to do. I wish for that process all the required conditions and able persons. It could be very good to relate back to the roots and to invite other Geshes or masters from the own school to offer help, teachings and their point of view what can be done that it turns out well. At least this option is worthwhile to think of. I heard also that INFORM tries to offer some guidance.
However, as already argued and reason were given elsewhere NKT is not the ancient Kadam school.
You state:
“I think one of the reasons so many of these blogs on the NKT turn ugly is both sides forget that the other side actually has a good intention. If we recall that we all do have a good intention, then we will stop attacking one another and start acknowledging the valid points the others raise. This might lower the volume, but raise the level of the discourse. I hope this happens.“
I don’t know. For me it is very tricky to claim: „I have a good intention.“ the mind is very tricky and I doubt my own mind. It is easy to claim, I have a good intention, while pride or hostility or even anger is in the mind. Maybe we can agree that we all are humans making faults and being able to recognize and correct them if we are honest with ourselves. Everything can be changed to the better if there is honesty and respect, self-respect and respect for others.
Maybe it helps on an artificial level to think like you suggest, I am not so sure about the benefits. If deception is involved then ignorance is the basis of action and this is not good either. To work with such an issue may be more complex and more things have to be taken into perspective. I am not so sure if this will really work.
Finally I see your criticism of NKS. I agree generalisations do not help. But what you say about NKS isn’t this itself a generalisation?
I signed out from NKS and although I am aware that there are generalisations (maybe a lot, I have to think more about this points) there are also no generalisations in NKS. If I remember the polls at NKS, they were fair and all could state their pov and it reflected a wide variety. (I wonder also why NKT members are so keen to criticize that forum and even to close it via complaint to Yahoo. The NKS allows a far more variety of statements than any NKT chat forum has ever allowed.)
Also I wonder how “innocent bystanders” can get “mental pain”, the forum is no open forum and it is made very clear on the front page, what the purpose and the understanding of the owner/group is. When there are so many happy NKTers, then it’s fine. If they get doubt, this is also fine. Doubts help to investigate more deeply and to get rid of wrong views. If you have certainty there is no doubt, just certainty.
To understand doubt it is good to look what faith is:
Faith (tib. dad-pa, skt. shradda) develops with respect to qualities who really exist, it is based on facts not superstitions (see e.g. Berzin’s website e.g.
Definition of Belief (faith))
Faith can be explained shortly as
Quote
A. Berzin
believing a fact to be true. A constructive emotion that focuses on something existent and validly knowable, something with good qualities, or an actual potential, and considers it either existent or true, or considers a fact about it as true. Some translators render the term as "faith."
A Buddhist has to check what is true and what is not.
If people have doubts this offers the chance to investigate more deeply. If this process is done based on the three defining characteristics a Mahayana student should possess - being non-partisan, having intelligence to discriminate correct from wrong teachings, and having diligence - the student develops certainty about the object. This faith in facts / really existing qualities which really exist, based on thoroughly investigation is the faith which is unshakeable and this faith is different from blind faith.
I wonder why you request for 'not making people to loose their faith' and you do not care at all how much NKT is “destroying faith” into the Dalai Lama and the Gelug school, by portraying the former as an “evil oppressor”, “Buddhist dictator”, “evil and cruel”, “hypocrite”, “liar” etc. and the Gelug school as “very degenerated”, while portraying oneself as “very pure”? So if you have concerns for the faith of others you should have it also for those people not affiliated with NKT, and not only for NKT members.
Most people have initial (maybe blind) faith in HHDL on the other hand his qualities are obvious so it is easy to have faith in facts, that’s why most people feel it easy to have faith in HHDL, he is an authentic master who lives what he teaches. (A view you may not share.)
The doubts people have in NKT: if these doubts lack a basis, then there is no reason to worry, if there is a basis for doubts then there is a need to worry. If people have valid reasons for doubts and these lead people towards leaving NKT, they do not loose their path, they are just leaving an organisation, this is their freedom. There are many Buddhist schools they can follow outside of NKT.
To get certainty about facts and to place faith in really existing qualities needs a lot of spiritual work and also many corrections in one'e own attitudes and views. The spiritual path is not free of suffering, one must be able to handle a lot of suffering. Doubts and confusion are just parts of the path. If one works through it, patiently and with understanding, one learns a lot and has more clarity and more stability than previously.
You state:
“Many then become disenchanted with Buddhism and religion altogether and are left with no path at all. I find this very sad. This has happened with several of my students as a result of the activities of the members of NKS and, respectfully, of yourself.”
If due to Buddhist’s actions people become disenchanted with Buddhism and religion altogether then this is indeed sad. I think that’s why it is important to look what our faults are which led to such a situation. (Do you think this is because what I say or due to the NKS?)
You state:
“So I humbly ask you to please keep this in mind as you spend your time on blog sites and as you guide the NKS group. Please help those who are turning to you to not lose their interest in a spiritual path. Please help them to not generalize. Please help them to be mindful how their activities could be causing unnecessary mental pain.”
Mhm. I do not guide the NKS, I signed out. I spend
some time on blog sites. Why? I wish to correct the wrong claims made there by NKT or NKT’s members. If there are no wrong or misleading claims (from my pov) there is no need to state anything for me, because I have no impulse to correct it.
For a better background:My complete activity is mainly based on two points: firstly, someone said after a long period of silence he entered into after he had listened to a former NKT follower: “if only one single person can be protected to step into such a devastating situation, what a blessing” and secondly that I recognized how dominant NKT is in the internet and how much they control information. When NKT started even to spread their misleading claims in Wikipedia and by thinking that newbies can’t judge NKT when there is only the NKT perspective on NKT, I got active on Wikipedia. So based on this I started to act.
My main aim in the beginning was to protect people to blindly step into NKT. Later my motivation was to help to offer proper information about NKT, so that a newbie is able to judge before he enters NKT. This motivation changed when confronted with former members unable to put their experiences into perspective, then I felt it would be good if I write things which may help them to understand NKT and thereby offer help in their process to leave NKT. Another motivation was to correct the misinformation of NKT on different subjects, and to give Dharma information or background information people didn’t learn in NKT or they hide to them. There was a constant change on what motivation I acted. My motivation was sometimes good, sometimes not.
I have also many doubts about what I do. I decided different times to stop. However, friends said I should be more flexible and it would be needed. So I went also through doubts and distrusted myself, distrust my own motivation. On the other hand people acknowledged that it was / is helpful to them what I wrote… If it is not helpful to NKT members, maybe they ignore me, how other ignore NKT about what they state about HHDL, the Tibetans and Gelug school? Others ignore NKT to protect their minds or to not waste their time. This is also a solution. NKT members who may "loose faith" can follow their example.
Back to your request:
As long as NKT acts, maybe I can act also?
You can see this at this forum: Who came first? Who came first at Wikipedia and in all forums? NKT. I came almost at every place later. So if NKT stop, I stop too ;-)
If NKT does not stop, why should I stop?
If NKT has the right to tell the world how wrong the Dalai Lama and how supreme they are, why I should I have no right, to state, that I disagree with NKT and how much they deceive others?
To put it into perspective, I am not the only one disagreeing with NKT but it looks like NKT perceives me as their main opponent?
Thank you and please excuse my long reply. t
Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2008 08:46AM by Tenzin Peljor.