Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by:
Tenzin Peljor
()
Date: October 25, 2008 07:16PM
Dear interestingtonote,
my pov is, it is easy to let go if one understands the causes and conditions which gave rise to certain events. All what we perceive within/about NKT is dependent arising, based on causes and conditions. I try to focus on the process of what gave rise to NKT and what role GKG plays to understand NKT and NKT's dynamics. If I understand, I can see what appears is just a natural process of dependent arising. All things are just very natural.
My general understanding is this:
In NKT GKG is the sole autocrat leadership. If you look who brought him into such a unique position you'll see that his own policies and actions and the blind devotion of Western followers gave him that position and power. There is nobody equal or higher than him, nobody where one can complain about his actions or who corrects him. The only acceptable Buddhist authority in NKT is GKG, all is based sole on his person and views [or on dead lamas who can't speak any more and whose teachings can be (mis)interpreted as it suits NKT's/GKG's policies]. (One of his teachers, Geshe Lhundup Sopa, is still alive but I never heard GKG personally mentioning his name or any word of devotion or gratefulness to him in my years within NKT and during all the NKT spring and summer festivals.) You have not even the choice to take another lama because there is 'one root guru for all'.
Why can Geshe Kelsang Gyatso only accept himself and only his books and Western devotees as a reliable sources on Buddhism (Je Tsongkhapa's school)? Why aren't even the translations of Je Tsongkhapa's own texts made by others or the books of his own teacher, Geshe Lhundup Sopa, acceptable for him or NKT? There are certain views which are in his mind, e.g. he perceives himself as the unique and pure upholder of Tsongkhapa's tradition and all who respect and follow the Dalai Lama as somewhat corrupted or degenerated. All who do not share his vision or approach, including Lama Yeshe or HHDL or the Gelug school in general or its upholder the Ganden Tripa, are as either "mixing Dharma with politics" or are just "very degenerated" or "follow blindly the Dalai Lama".
For me it is clear that the views about himself, on his fellow monks and nuns and the upholders of the Gelug school, the abbots and masters, Tulkus and Rinpoches, are based on a perception perceiving the own person and the own views as supreme to others. Without such views on the own importance and the own supremacy one is able to put the own person and actions into perspective and is willing to see things from different perspectives, to acknowledge own faults, to correct oneself --- and of course the Dharma teachings of other masters (from the own or other schools) are welcomed, not banned.
Researcher Kay did from my pov a good work in pointing out the changes in GKG's views over the years. He showed these changes in mind by his actions and statements. A summery you can read here:
Historical background of the formation of NKT
You can also use google.books for reading passages of Kay's research:
The New Kadampa Tradition
Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
There is a certain view within him and NKT, that he is unfailing. He said different times in public letters or statements: "I have made no faults." or "We have made no faults." I heard this statement also personally from him when it was undeniable that he and NKT made faults. The present acknowledgement of NKT or some very rare former statements, they may have made some faults, were in general just made because it suits the PR or damage control tactics of NKT but are not really based on a clear recognition of the own faults, otherwise he/NKT would excuse of what they have done and stop to slander those who criticise them.
I think, GKG has a mission, based on "a conception of purity" of Tsongkhapa's school, similar to George W. Bush, you can see how blind Bush got and on what questionable people he relied on in his mission and what devastating results it brought, how many left him and criticise him yet still he believes he did the right thing.
The successors of GKG were successful to help to fulfil his mission: to spread NKT worldwide. They attracted many members, were/are charismatic. As long as they fulfilled his vision they were protected at all costs by him. According to insiders he knew about the sexual escapades and did nothing besides threatening those who ask him to solve and stop that misbehaviour. Only when it became public via internet he acted because the internet seems to be taken more seriously by NKT than the welfare of the own members. I think this is due to that a loss of reputation undermines the goal of spreading NKT worldwide, and the own members are replaceable by newbies who are more devoted. So then GKG acted in both cases of sexual misconduct of his successors or other resident teachers, only when these scandals became public. (It is remarkable how NKT emphasize the replaceability of resident teachers neglecting their human nature and Karma. A RT is just a machine, either it functions or it must be replaced. NKT lacks a lot of human and compassionate perspectives.)
Also Dechen (my RT), as long as she fulfilled his mission to spread NKT worldwide, she was completely acceptable to him and all complaints were ignored, only when he lost control over her and when she started to collaborate with other Shugden lamas, he saw a need to expel her.
To make it short:
As long as GKG can not see what of his actions led to the sexual abuse in NKT and that he himself made faults, he can't excuse honestly to the victims of sexual, spiritual or financial abuse within NKT. He will blame others. Also as long as one is pride (to think one is special and looks down on others), there is no compassion. Pride and compassion are mutually exclusive. Pride and sectarianism are the dominating afflictions within NKT. (Although some NKT members emphasize "I am nothing" also this is rather an extreme based on pride (e.g. pride on being humble or nothing) or based on low self-esteem.)
Regarding the faults which led to the sexual abuses, my understanding is these points may have supported the situation:
- no Vinaya
- no teachings on the Vinaya
- misunderstanding about monasticism and monastic rules and their purpose
- no separation of monks and nuns and being mixed much with laity
- putting less experienced newbies in the position of NKT teachers (for the sake of NKT's worldwide spread)
- encouraging even mental sick persons to be resident teachers ("you will benefit millions of sentient beings")
- having NKT nuns as assistants of male ordained NKT teachers (GKG himself has only nuns as his assistants, not even the highest ordained master in Tibetan Buddhism do this)
- no exchange with elderly experienced (fully ordained) monks and nuns from the own order (Gelug/Mulasarvastavadin) who know the rules and how they are to be applied and how they function as a protection and free the mind from its mental poisons [in a way by this lack of exchange and openness the Buddhist refuge and the protection it offers is lost]
- the isolation of NKT due to its feeling of supremacy
- the mission of spreading NKT is more important than the spiritual growth of its members
- unwillingness to acknowledge faults in NKT's leadership and to prefer to blame others as the source of problems
- distractions and excitement due to the rushy and busy attitude of NKT (based on its missionary drive) which blocks introspection and satisfaction from within
These are some points I see. GKG is not the only one who questions the tulku system, many do this, including HHDL. But there are also positive sides in the tulku system and those who know tulkus who continue their path in this life are amazed to see there immense qualities. To ban tulkus within NKT, I think was just a needed step in GKG's own isolation / split from his roots the gelug school because in Tibetan Buddhism tulkus are seen as higher and receive more respect than Geshes. If a tulku would come to GKG GKG should pay respect to him and be his servant. His opinions changed gradually over the years, therefore certain policies have to be put into the historical and cross cultural context.
Best Wishes, t
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2008 07:46PM by Tenzin Peljor.
my pov is, it is easy to let go if one understands the causes and conditions which gave rise to certain events. All what we perceive within/about NKT is dependent arising, based on causes and conditions. I try to focus on the process of what gave rise to NKT and what role GKG plays to understand NKT and NKT's dynamics. If I understand, I can see what appears is just a natural process of dependent arising. All things are just very natural.
My general understanding is this:
In NKT GKG is the sole autocrat leadership. If you look who brought him into such a unique position you'll see that his own policies and actions and the blind devotion of Western followers gave him that position and power. There is nobody equal or higher than him, nobody where one can complain about his actions or who corrects him. The only acceptable Buddhist authority in NKT is GKG, all is based sole on his person and views [or on dead lamas who can't speak any more and whose teachings can be (mis)interpreted as it suits NKT's/GKG's policies]. (One of his teachers, Geshe Lhundup Sopa, is still alive but I never heard GKG personally mentioning his name or any word of devotion or gratefulness to him in my years within NKT and during all the NKT spring and summer festivals.) You have not even the choice to take another lama because there is 'one root guru for all'.
Why can Geshe Kelsang Gyatso only accept himself and only his books and Western devotees as a reliable sources on Buddhism (Je Tsongkhapa's school)? Why aren't even the translations of Je Tsongkhapa's own texts made by others or the books of his own teacher, Geshe Lhundup Sopa, acceptable for him or NKT? There are certain views which are in his mind, e.g. he perceives himself as the unique and pure upholder of Tsongkhapa's tradition and all who respect and follow the Dalai Lama as somewhat corrupted or degenerated. All who do not share his vision or approach, including Lama Yeshe or HHDL or the Gelug school in general or its upholder the Ganden Tripa, are as either "mixing Dharma with politics" or are just "very degenerated" or "follow blindly the Dalai Lama".
For me it is clear that the views about himself, on his fellow monks and nuns and the upholders of the Gelug school, the abbots and masters, Tulkus and Rinpoches, are based on a perception perceiving the own person and the own views as supreme to others. Without such views on the own importance and the own supremacy one is able to put the own person and actions into perspective and is willing to see things from different perspectives, to acknowledge own faults, to correct oneself --- and of course the Dharma teachings of other masters (from the own or other schools) are welcomed, not banned.
Researcher Kay did from my pov a good work in pointing out the changes in GKG's views over the years. He showed these changes in mind by his actions and statements. A summery you can read here:
Historical background of the formation of NKT
You can also use google.books for reading passages of Kay's research:
The New Kadampa Tradition
Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
There is a certain view within him and NKT, that he is unfailing. He said different times in public letters or statements: "I have made no faults." or "We have made no faults." I heard this statement also personally from him when it was undeniable that he and NKT made faults. The present acknowledgement of NKT or some very rare former statements, they may have made some faults, were in general just made because it suits the PR or damage control tactics of NKT but are not really based on a clear recognition of the own faults, otherwise he/NKT would excuse of what they have done and stop to slander those who criticise them.
I think, GKG has a mission, based on "a conception of purity" of Tsongkhapa's school, similar to George W. Bush, you can see how blind Bush got and on what questionable people he relied on in his mission and what devastating results it brought, how many left him and criticise him yet still he believes he did the right thing.
The successors of GKG were successful to help to fulfil his mission: to spread NKT worldwide. They attracted many members, were/are charismatic. As long as they fulfilled his vision they were protected at all costs by him. According to insiders he knew about the sexual escapades and did nothing besides threatening those who ask him to solve and stop that misbehaviour. Only when it became public via internet he acted because the internet seems to be taken more seriously by NKT than the welfare of the own members. I think this is due to that a loss of reputation undermines the goal of spreading NKT worldwide, and the own members are replaceable by newbies who are more devoted. So then GKG acted in both cases of sexual misconduct of his successors or other resident teachers, only when these scandals became public. (It is remarkable how NKT emphasize the replaceability of resident teachers neglecting their human nature and Karma. A RT is just a machine, either it functions or it must be replaced. NKT lacks a lot of human and compassionate perspectives.)
Also Dechen (my RT), as long as she fulfilled his mission to spread NKT worldwide, she was completely acceptable to him and all complaints were ignored, only when he lost control over her and when she started to collaborate with other Shugden lamas, he saw a need to expel her.
To make it short:
As long as GKG can not see what of his actions led to the sexual abuse in NKT and that he himself made faults, he can't excuse honestly to the victims of sexual, spiritual or financial abuse within NKT. He will blame others. Also as long as one is pride (to think one is special and looks down on others), there is no compassion. Pride and compassion are mutually exclusive. Pride and sectarianism are the dominating afflictions within NKT. (Although some NKT members emphasize "I am nothing" also this is rather an extreme based on pride (e.g. pride on being humble or nothing) or based on low self-esteem.)
Regarding the faults which led to the sexual abuses, my understanding is these points may have supported the situation:
- no Vinaya
- no teachings on the Vinaya
- misunderstanding about monasticism and monastic rules and their purpose
- no separation of monks and nuns and being mixed much with laity
- putting less experienced newbies in the position of NKT teachers (for the sake of NKT's worldwide spread)
- encouraging even mental sick persons to be resident teachers ("you will benefit millions of sentient beings")
- having NKT nuns as assistants of male ordained NKT teachers (GKG himself has only nuns as his assistants, not even the highest ordained master in Tibetan Buddhism do this)
- no exchange with elderly experienced (fully ordained) monks and nuns from the own order (Gelug/Mulasarvastavadin) who know the rules and how they are to be applied and how they function as a protection and free the mind from its mental poisons [in a way by this lack of exchange and openness the Buddhist refuge and the protection it offers is lost]
- the isolation of NKT due to its feeling of supremacy
- the mission of spreading NKT is more important than the spiritual growth of its members
- unwillingness to acknowledge faults in NKT's leadership and to prefer to blame others as the source of problems
- distractions and excitement due to the rushy and busy attitude of NKT (based on its missionary drive) which blocks introspection and satisfaction from within
These are some points I see. GKG is not the only one who questions the tulku system, many do this, including HHDL. But there are also positive sides in the tulku system and those who know tulkus who continue their path in this life are amazed to see there immense qualities. To ban tulkus within NKT, I think was just a needed step in GKG's own isolation / split from his roots the gelug school because in Tibetan Buddhism tulkus are seen as higher and receive more respect than Geshes. If a tulku would come to GKG GKG should pay respect to him and be his servant. His opinions changed gradually over the years, therefore certain policies have to be put into the historical and cross cultural context.
Best Wishes, t
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2008 07:46PM by Tenzin Peljor.
Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: October 25, 2008 10:28PM
Here is a way to get an outside perspective:
HH Dalai Lama gave a two day lecture on one of Tsonkapa's texts.
[209.85.173.104]
The lecture is available in DVD--9.5 hours worth. It actually linked the difficult philosophy of dependent origination with the actual problems of identifying and dealing with afflictive emotions in one's own practice.
[www.wisdom-books.com]
So given that NKT follows Tsonkapa's school, it might be illuminating for those interested to see how the DL worked with this text.
A well informed friend told me that the man who translated for the DL during the lecture was himself a geshe--that is, the translator had the equivalent of a Ph.D from a Tibetan monastic university, as does the DL.
One doesnt earn the title of geshe unless one passes a very exacting public examination.
That text was so dense that one would have needed a Ph.D to function competantly as a translator because it was loaded with citations to other
Tibetan texts, especially to Nagarjuna.
I went home feeling as though my brain had been put through Olympic training. This was not trance. It was more like sitting through calculus or statistics classes at university level.
This was dense carefully reasoned information that tied right in to daily practice and that required background knowledge and alert attention--quite
different from trance.
HH Dalai Lama gave a two day lecture on one of Tsonkapa's texts.
Quote
Teaching in San Francisco, California, U.S.A. on April 27 & 28: His Holiness will give a teaching on Je Tsongkhapa's In Praise of Dependent Origination (tendrel toepa) at the Bill Graham Civic Auditorium organized by the Gyuto Vajrayana Center in San Jose, California. Website: www.dalailamabay2007.com
[209.85.173.104]
The lecture is available in DVD--9.5 hours worth. It actually linked the difficult philosophy of dependent origination with the actual problems of identifying and dealing with afflictive emotions in one's own practice.
[www.wisdom-books.com]
So given that NKT follows Tsonkapa's school, it might be illuminating for those interested to see how the DL worked with this text.
A well informed friend told me that the man who translated for the DL during the lecture was himself a geshe--that is, the translator had the equivalent of a Ph.D from a Tibetan monastic university, as does the DL.
One doesnt earn the title of geshe unless one passes a very exacting public examination.
That text was so dense that one would have needed a Ph.D to function competantly as a translator because it was loaded with citations to other
Tibetan texts, especially to Nagarjuna.
I went home feeling as though my brain had been put through Olympic training. This was not trance. It was more like sitting through calculus or statistics classes at university level.
This was dense carefully reasoned information that tied right in to daily practice and that required background knowledge and alert attention--quite
different from trance.
Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by:
dspak08
()
Date: October 27, 2008 08:00PM
Dear Tenzin,
(I am sorry for this long message. I hope it will nonetheless be approved. I am speaking from my heart and from a space of wanting things to get better).
I understand and fully respect what the intention of the NKS group is. As you present it, there is of course nothing wrong with it.
I also think that in some ways the group does some good, because you are right it is by receiving criticism that things can get better. I know for a fact that the NKT leadership is listening to what is being said on that group, and positive changes are being made in response. While in my view (and I believe yours) the Dharma taught within the NKT is completely faultless, there is no doubt that we as a community are an imperfect vehicle for transmitting and carrying forward this perfect Dharma. Many many mistakes have been made. Many people have been hurt or had bad experiences. For all of this I am very sorry, and my heart goes out to them. It is unfortunate that there have been so many mistakes. I know I have made a substantial number myself, and for all of those I am also very sorry. I can say I have done my best to do the right thing, but there have been many times where my enthusiasm has outstripped my wisdom and my skilful means.
I know the top leadership of the NKT and I know they do not want the NKT to be a 'sect' or a 'cult' or all the other terrible labels one can apply to a religious group. I have been involved with the NKT for 15 years now, and while there is still considerable work to be done to make things more functional, the trajectory of change is in the right direction. There is less of the bad now than there was before. People are becoming increasingly aware of the various wrong turns that can and have been made and as a result things are improving. Even though the Kadam Dharma is ancient, the NKT as an organization is very young and so mistakes will be made. The question, for me at least, is not are mistakes being made the question is does the organization have the intention to do better. I have seen first hand that it does. I have many faults, but my wife 'puts up with me' and 'sticks around' because she sees that my intention is to improve myself, learn from my mistakes and do better.
I think one of the reasons so many of these blogs on the NKT turn ugly is both sides forget that the other side actually has a good intention. If we recall that we all do have a good intention, then we will stop attacking one another and start acknowledging the valid points the others raise. This might lower the volume, but raise the level of the discourse. I hope this happens.
With all of this being said, my problem with the NKS group is two-fold. The first is it seems the group speaks in generalizations, where people take their bad experiences and they communicate them as generalized truths about all of the NKT. This is not fair. We can see how generalizations have created problems with racism, sexism, islamophobia, anti-semitism, homophobia, etc. As somebody who carries a fair amount of weight in the NKS group, I ask you to please be mindful of this and try help keep things from being unjustly generalized. The second problem I have is while it may help pacify the mental pain of some who go to this group to recover, it is also creating a lot of unnecessary mental pain in innocent bystanders who have not had these bad experiences. There are tens of thousands of happy kadampas around the world, and a handful who have had bad experiences. Most Kadampas know nothing of these bad experiences that are happening elsewhere, and when they go on line and find all of this stuff, they are then plunged into doubt (even though before they were happy with their path and not having any problems). They then read all that has been written and eventually they lose their faith and they lose their path. Many then become disenchanted with Buddhism and religion altogether and are left with no path at all. I find this very sad. This has happened with several of my students as a result of the activities of the members of NKS and, respectfully, of yourself.
So I humbly ask you to please keep this in mind as you spend your time on blog sites and as you guide the NKS group. Please help those who are turning to you to not lose their interest in a spiritual path. Please help them to not generalize. Please help them to be mindful how their activities could be causing unnecessary mental pain.
Thank you for listening,
Dspak08
(I am sorry for this long message. I hope it will nonetheless be approved. I am speaking from my heart and from a space of wanting things to get better).
I understand and fully respect what the intention of the NKS group is. As you present it, there is of course nothing wrong with it.
I also think that in some ways the group does some good, because you are right it is by receiving criticism that things can get better. I know for a fact that the NKT leadership is listening to what is being said on that group, and positive changes are being made in response. While in my view (and I believe yours) the Dharma taught within the NKT is completely faultless, there is no doubt that we as a community are an imperfect vehicle for transmitting and carrying forward this perfect Dharma. Many many mistakes have been made. Many people have been hurt or had bad experiences. For all of this I am very sorry, and my heart goes out to them. It is unfortunate that there have been so many mistakes. I know I have made a substantial number myself, and for all of those I am also very sorry. I can say I have done my best to do the right thing, but there have been many times where my enthusiasm has outstripped my wisdom and my skilful means.
I know the top leadership of the NKT and I know they do not want the NKT to be a 'sect' or a 'cult' or all the other terrible labels one can apply to a religious group. I have been involved with the NKT for 15 years now, and while there is still considerable work to be done to make things more functional, the trajectory of change is in the right direction. There is less of the bad now than there was before. People are becoming increasingly aware of the various wrong turns that can and have been made and as a result things are improving. Even though the Kadam Dharma is ancient, the NKT as an organization is very young and so mistakes will be made. The question, for me at least, is not are mistakes being made the question is does the organization have the intention to do better. I have seen first hand that it does. I have many faults, but my wife 'puts up with me' and 'sticks around' because she sees that my intention is to improve myself, learn from my mistakes and do better.
I think one of the reasons so many of these blogs on the NKT turn ugly is both sides forget that the other side actually has a good intention. If we recall that we all do have a good intention, then we will stop attacking one another and start acknowledging the valid points the others raise. This might lower the volume, but raise the level of the discourse. I hope this happens.
With all of this being said, my problem with the NKS group is two-fold. The first is it seems the group speaks in generalizations, where people take their bad experiences and they communicate them as generalized truths about all of the NKT. This is not fair. We can see how generalizations have created problems with racism, sexism, islamophobia, anti-semitism, homophobia, etc. As somebody who carries a fair amount of weight in the NKS group, I ask you to please be mindful of this and try help keep things from being unjustly generalized. The second problem I have is while it may help pacify the mental pain of some who go to this group to recover, it is also creating a lot of unnecessary mental pain in innocent bystanders who have not had these bad experiences. There are tens of thousands of happy kadampas around the world, and a handful who have had bad experiences. Most Kadampas know nothing of these bad experiences that are happening elsewhere, and when they go on line and find all of this stuff, they are then plunged into doubt (even though before they were happy with their path and not having any problems). They then read all that has been written and eventually they lose their faith and they lose their path. Many then become disenchanted with Buddhism and religion altogether and are left with no path at all. I find this very sad. This has happened with several of my students as a result of the activities of the members of NKS and, respectfully, of yourself.
So I humbly ask you to please keep this in mind as you spend your time on blog sites and as you guide the NKS group. Please help those who are turning to you to not lose their interest in a spiritual path. Please help them to not generalize. Please help them to be mindful how their activities could be causing unnecessary mental pain.
Thank you for listening,
Dspak08
Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by:
Tenzin Peljor
()
Date: October 28, 2008 08:22AM
Dear dspak08,
It looks like every communication with someone from NKT has to be started with a correction or refuting a certain position. So I do it also here:
I do not present the NKS.
And for the purpose to prevent other speculations: I also do not present the Dalai Lama or FPMT or anybody else.
From a neutral pov the NKS is neither correct nor wrong it was created with a certain purpose, mainly to help those who left NKT or to help those who wish to leave NKT to be able to do their steps to leave NKT and to find a new beginning. In general if someone leaves a healthy group or a healthy teacher such a group would be redundant. Just try to set up a “FPMT survivor” group and look how many former or present members from FPMT you can attract and what they write: there will be a huge difference.
From the point of view of the purpose I think NKS fulfils its purpose and it is very worthwhile. Many people acknowledged how much it helped them and how important it is/was to them. Some of them had to read 6000 posts to get clarity. Only some very few (maybe 3-5 persons) expressed their discontentment with the complete group. To put down such a forum as a “hate group” and that David and I wish to destroy NKT is plain wrong. I think it is just very correct to reject such claims, isn’t it?
I don’t see it that way as you claim: “As you present it, there is of course nothing wrong with it.” Why do you say this?
It is new for me that someone from NKT openly without pseudo-compassion (mixed with pride) excuses. I acknowledge this.
However, I doubt that this is really a honest approach of NKT in general. I suppose it is just a new tactic or again damage control, based on what NKT recognized as being appreciated by outsiders. I doubt that it is really based on a change of inner attitudes and a clear recognition what of the own actions led to such a situation.
If you look how this Rick Ross Forum started and other forums started and turned out I doubt such a approach very much. But it could be that you as an individual make an exception here. As long as GKG or NKT leadership does not officially excuse and correct the wrong claims at their truth page I doubt that any change towards honesty has taken place. I just see such claims as a new tactic or as your personal approach. We’ll see what actions NKT/WSS will perform which proof what you say.
Regarding the NKT teachings, my understanding is: the faults lie direct in the NKT leadership and in wrong or superficial teachings, especially distorted teachings of the teacher-student-relationship and on “pure view”. Many NKT teachings are also abused (maybe most times unintentionally) to bind the people into NKT and to split them away from mainstream Buddhism and the Buddhist Sangha. I think I stated my points on this already elsewhere – if needed I will take time to go into details.
As I was a devoted student of GKG and a NKT teacher and learned now since 8 years what the Buddhist masters outside of “NKT world” teach and how different and more deep their teachings are, I have the opportunity to compare and to judge the teachings I learned in NKT.
I don’t know if you have such an opportunity of comparisons? At least you can see in this point we disagree. Also I see the faults in NKT as dependent arising.
My observations are: there are not only naïve Western followers who follow blindly one teacher, his teachings and his protector; and let him do what ever he likes judging every action of him as correct “because he is a Buddha”, “he knows the three times whereas I do not”, there is also Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, who from my point of view is no authentic teacher anymore. He leads his student towards pride, sectarianism and hostility and anger against the Dalai Lama and the Gelug school, and makes them believe that he is the last teacher who is upholding Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition “purely” – he himself made him to an autocrat in NKT. In situation of crisis he blames others and states he has made no faults, and NKT has made no faults. He claimed even “I am NKT”. Instead of teaching dependent arising, karma and the affliction as the source of problems, he blames others, including his own students. Of course his students believe he is right “because he is a Buddha”, “a fully accomplished meditation master”.
It looks like that GKG changed so dramatically since his arrival in the West that the person who once came to Manjshuri Institute and the person who spreads so much hate and lies about the Dalai Lama are of two different entities.
Sorry to say it, but I think he is a misleading teacher. I see him as a human being for whom and whose work I have full respect, nevertheless as his teachings and presentation of Dharma install mind poisons and sectarianism in the mind of students and finally separate them from all the living holy masters, I can not advise him as a Buddhist teacher.
Saying this, I wish to oppose your claim that only the students of NKT made faults. The faults which you may perceive are just a reflection what is going on in NKT’s leadership. E.g. Geshe-la knew about the sexual abuses, he knows the Vinaya, he did anything to cover the situation until finally it became public. The same happened with Gen Thubten, persons who work now to denounce the Dalai Lama as a “hypocrite” …
I am completely convinced that the NKT leadership wishes neither to be a sect or a cult nor be labelled as this. Nobody wishes this. I am convinced also that Geshe-la only wishes the best for his students and the students only the best for others. This is what they say and this is what they think, yet there is something going on in NKT, in the mind, which corrupts such noble aims. I think, this has to be investigated more deeply. If time is taken for honest and open, self-critical introspection, without fear or pressure then there is the chance to see the root of the developments which may be felt now – at least by you – as being wrong. Blaming others is the wrong way.
The last opportunity to do such an introspection were the sexual scandals within NKT. Sadly NKT started all their typical patterns: in the beginning the blame was thrown back on the critic, the NKT secretary started a “disinformation campaign”, then Dharma teachings were abused to stop open discussion about it (to speak about the issue in NKT forums was portrayed by GKG as “meaningless activities” and all NKT chats were closed due to his orders). Instead of taking time to face the own situation thoroughly and to invite outsiders or experienced Sangha for help, or to be open to check what the internal sources of these events are, NKT started a world wide media campaign accusing the Dalai Lama of all what they do themselves, having no shame to spread their misleading messages at every place in the internet, and attacking every opponent as a liar - a very fine mean to distract NKT members from introspection, doubts, questions, and to clean the own place. So where is the change? I think it is also incorrect that GKG accused Steven W. of that he is guilty of the situation, it is dependent arising what happened and GKG’s own actions are involved in this, his own policies, his own views and his own teachings or what he didn’t teach and that NKT split away from its root, the Gelug school.
If NKT really wants to clean the situation, there is a lot to do. I wish for that process all the required conditions and able persons. It could be very good to relate back to the roots and to invite other Geshes or masters from the own school to offer help, teachings and their point of view what can be done that it turns out well. At least this option is worthwhile to think of. I heard also that INFORM tries to offer some guidance.
However, as already argued and reason were given elsewhere NKT is not the ancient Kadam school.
You state:
“I think one of the reasons so many of these blogs on the NKT turn ugly is both sides forget that the other side actually has a good intention. If we recall that we all do have a good intention, then we will stop attacking one another and start acknowledging the valid points the others raise. This might lower the volume, but raise the level of the discourse. I hope this happens.“
I don’t know. For me it is very tricky to claim: „I have a good intention.“ the mind is very tricky and I doubt my own mind. It is easy to claim, I have a good intention, while pride or hostility or even anger is in the mind. Maybe we can agree that we all are humans making faults and being able to recognize and correct them if we are honest with ourselves. Everything can be changed to the better if there is honesty and respect, self-respect and respect for others.
Maybe it helps on an artificial level to think like you suggest, I am not so sure about the benefits. If deception is involved then ignorance is the basis of action and this is not good either. To work with such an issue may be more complex and more things have to be taken into perspective. I am not so sure if this will really work.
Finally I see your criticism of NKS. I agree generalisations do not help. But what you say about NKS isn’t this itself a generalisation?
I signed out from NKS and although I am aware that there are generalisations (maybe a lot, I have to think more about this points) there are also no generalisations in NKS. If I remember the polls at NKS, they were fair and all could state their pov and it reflected a wide variety. (I wonder also why NKT members are so keen to criticize that forum and even to close it via complaint to Yahoo. The NKS allows a far more variety of statements than any NKT chat forum has ever allowed.)
Also I wonder how “innocent bystanders” can get “mental pain”, the forum is no open forum and it is made very clear on the front page, what the purpose and the understanding of the owner/group is. When there are so many happy NKTers, then it’s fine. If they get doubt, this is also fine. Doubts help to investigate more deeply and to get rid of wrong views. If you have certainty there is no doubt, just certainty.
To understand doubt it is good to look what faith is:
Faith (tib. dad-pa, skt. shradda) develops with respect to qualities who really exist, it is based on facts not superstitions (see e.g. Berzin’s website e.g. Definition of Belief (faith))
Faith can be explained shortly as
A Buddhist has to check what is true and what is not.
If people have doubts this offers the chance to investigate more deeply. If this process is done based on the three defining characteristics a Mahayana student should possess - being non-partisan, having intelligence to discriminate correct from wrong teachings, and having diligence - the student develops certainty about the object. This faith in facts / really existing qualities which really exist, based on thoroughly investigation is the faith which is unshakeable and this faith is different from blind faith.
I wonder why you request for 'not making people to loose their faith' and you do not care at all how much NKT is “destroying faith” into the Dalai Lama and the Gelug school, by portraying the former as an “evil oppressor”, “Buddhist dictator”, “evil and cruel”, “hypocrite”, “liar” etc. and the Gelug school as “very degenerated”, while portraying oneself as “very pure”? So if you have concerns for the faith of others you should have it also for those people not affiliated with NKT, and not only for NKT members.
Most people have initial (maybe blind) faith in HHDL on the other hand his qualities are obvious so it is easy to have faith in facts, that’s why most people feel it easy to have faith in HHDL, he is an authentic master who lives what he teaches. (A view you may not share.)
The doubts people have in NKT: if these doubts lack a basis, then there is no reason to worry, if there is a basis for doubts then there is a need to worry. If people have valid reasons for doubts and these lead people towards leaving NKT, they do not loose their path, they are just leaving an organisation, this is their freedom. There are many Buddhist schools they can follow outside of NKT.
To get certainty about facts and to place faith in really existing qualities needs a lot of spiritual work and also many corrections in one'e own attitudes and views. The spiritual path is not free of suffering, one must be able to handle a lot of suffering. Doubts and confusion are just parts of the path. If one works through it, patiently and with understanding, one learns a lot and has more clarity and more stability than previously.
You state:
“Many then become disenchanted with Buddhism and religion altogether and are left with no path at all. I find this very sad. This has happened with several of my students as a result of the activities of the members of NKS and, respectfully, of yourself.”
If due to Buddhist’s actions people become disenchanted with Buddhism and religion altogether then this is indeed sad. I think that’s why it is important to look what our faults are which led to such a situation. (Do you think this is because what I say or due to the NKS?)
You state:
“So I humbly ask you to please keep this in mind as you spend your time on blog sites and as you guide the NKS group. Please help those who are turning to you to not lose their interest in a spiritual path. Please help them to not generalize. Please help them to be mindful how their activities could be causing unnecessary mental pain.”
Mhm. I do not guide the NKS, I signed out. I spend some time on blog sites. Why? I wish to correct the wrong claims made there by NKT or NKT’s members. If there are no wrong or misleading claims (from my pov) there is no need to state anything for me, because I have no impulse to correct it.
For a better background:
My complete activity is mainly based on two points: firstly, someone said after a long period of silence he entered into after he had listened to a former NKT follower: “if only one single person can be protected to step into such a devastating situation, what a blessing” and secondly that I recognized how dominant NKT is in the internet and how much they control information. When NKT started even to spread their misleading claims in Wikipedia and by thinking that newbies can’t judge NKT when there is only the NKT perspective on NKT, I got active on Wikipedia. So based on this I started to act.
My main aim in the beginning was to protect people to blindly step into NKT. Later my motivation was to help to offer proper information about NKT, so that a newbie is able to judge before he enters NKT. This motivation changed when confronted with former members unable to put their experiences into perspective, then I felt it would be good if I write things which may help them to understand NKT and thereby offer help in their process to leave NKT. Another motivation was to correct the misinformation of NKT on different subjects, and to give Dharma information or background information people didn’t learn in NKT or they hide to them. There was a constant change on what motivation I acted. My motivation was sometimes good, sometimes not.
I have also many doubts about what I do. I decided different times to stop. However, friends said I should be more flexible and it would be needed. So I went also through doubts and distrusted myself, distrust my own motivation. On the other hand people acknowledged that it was / is helpful to them what I wrote… If it is not helpful to NKT members, maybe they ignore me, how other ignore NKT about what they state about HHDL, the Tibetans and Gelug school? Others ignore NKT to protect their minds or to not waste their time. This is also a solution. NKT members who may "loose faith" can follow their example.
Back to your request:
As long as NKT acts, maybe I can act also?
You can see this at this forum: Who came first? Who came first at Wikipedia and in all forums? NKT. I came almost at every place later. So if NKT stop, I stop too ;-)
If NKT does not stop, why should I stop?
If NKT has the right to tell the world how wrong the Dalai Lama and how supreme they are, why I should I have no right, to state, that I disagree with NKT and how much they deceive others?
To put it into perspective, I am not the only one disagreeing with NKT but it looks like NKT perceives me as their main opponent?
Thank you and please excuse my long reply. t
Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2008 08:46AM by Tenzin Peljor.
It looks like every communication with someone from NKT has to be started with a correction or refuting a certain position. So I do it also here:
I do not present the NKS.
And for the purpose to prevent other speculations: I also do not present the Dalai Lama or FPMT or anybody else.
From a neutral pov the NKS is neither correct nor wrong it was created with a certain purpose, mainly to help those who left NKT or to help those who wish to leave NKT to be able to do their steps to leave NKT and to find a new beginning. In general if someone leaves a healthy group or a healthy teacher such a group would be redundant. Just try to set up a “FPMT survivor” group and look how many former or present members from FPMT you can attract and what they write: there will be a huge difference.
From the point of view of the purpose I think NKS fulfils its purpose and it is very worthwhile. Many people acknowledged how much it helped them and how important it is/was to them. Some of them had to read 6000 posts to get clarity. Only some very few (maybe 3-5 persons) expressed their discontentment with the complete group. To put down such a forum as a “hate group” and that David and I wish to destroy NKT is plain wrong. I think it is just very correct to reject such claims, isn’t it?
I don’t see it that way as you claim: “As you present it, there is of course nothing wrong with it.” Why do you say this?
It is new for me that someone from NKT openly without pseudo-compassion (mixed with pride) excuses. I acknowledge this.
However, I doubt that this is really a honest approach of NKT in general. I suppose it is just a new tactic or again damage control, based on what NKT recognized as being appreciated by outsiders. I doubt that it is really based on a change of inner attitudes and a clear recognition what of the own actions led to such a situation.
If you look how this Rick Ross Forum started and other forums started and turned out I doubt such a approach very much. But it could be that you as an individual make an exception here. As long as GKG or NKT leadership does not officially excuse and correct the wrong claims at their truth page I doubt that any change towards honesty has taken place. I just see such claims as a new tactic or as your personal approach. We’ll see what actions NKT/WSS will perform which proof what you say.
Regarding the NKT teachings, my understanding is: the faults lie direct in the NKT leadership and in wrong or superficial teachings, especially distorted teachings of the teacher-student-relationship and on “pure view”. Many NKT teachings are also abused (maybe most times unintentionally) to bind the people into NKT and to split them away from mainstream Buddhism and the Buddhist Sangha. I think I stated my points on this already elsewhere – if needed I will take time to go into details.
As I was a devoted student of GKG and a NKT teacher and learned now since 8 years what the Buddhist masters outside of “NKT world” teach and how different and more deep their teachings are, I have the opportunity to compare and to judge the teachings I learned in NKT.
I don’t know if you have such an opportunity of comparisons? At least you can see in this point we disagree. Also I see the faults in NKT as dependent arising.
My observations are: there are not only naïve Western followers who follow blindly one teacher, his teachings and his protector; and let him do what ever he likes judging every action of him as correct “because he is a Buddha”, “he knows the three times whereas I do not”, there is also Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, who from my point of view is no authentic teacher anymore. He leads his student towards pride, sectarianism and hostility and anger against the Dalai Lama and the Gelug school, and makes them believe that he is the last teacher who is upholding Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition “purely” – he himself made him to an autocrat in NKT. In situation of crisis he blames others and states he has made no faults, and NKT has made no faults. He claimed even “I am NKT”. Instead of teaching dependent arising, karma and the affliction as the source of problems, he blames others, including his own students. Of course his students believe he is right “because he is a Buddha”, “a fully accomplished meditation master”.
It looks like that GKG changed so dramatically since his arrival in the West that the person who once came to Manjshuri Institute and the person who spreads so much hate and lies about the Dalai Lama are of two different entities.
Sorry to say it, but I think he is a misleading teacher. I see him as a human being for whom and whose work I have full respect, nevertheless as his teachings and presentation of Dharma install mind poisons and sectarianism in the mind of students and finally separate them from all the living holy masters, I can not advise him as a Buddhist teacher.
Saying this, I wish to oppose your claim that only the students of NKT made faults. The faults which you may perceive are just a reflection what is going on in NKT’s leadership. E.g. Geshe-la knew about the sexual abuses, he knows the Vinaya, he did anything to cover the situation until finally it became public. The same happened with Gen Thubten, persons who work now to denounce the Dalai Lama as a “hypocrite” …
I am completely convinced that the NKT leadership wishes neither to be a sect or a cult nor be labelled as this. Nobody wishes this. I am convinced also that Geshe-la only wishes the best for his students and the students only the best for others. This is what they say and this is what they think, yet there is something going on in NKT, in the mind, which corrupts such noble aims. I think, this has to be investigated more deeply. If time is taken for honest and open, self-critical introspection, without fear or pressure then there is the chance to see the root of the developments which may be felt now – at least by you – as being wrong. Blaming others is the wrong way.
The last opportunity to do such an introspection were the sexual scandals within NKT. Sadly NKT started all their typical patterns: in the beginning the blame was thrown back on the critic, the NKT secretary started a “disinformation campaign”, then Dharma teachings were abused to stop open discussion about it (to speak about the issue in NKT forums was portrayed by GKG as “meaningless activities” and all NKT chats were closed due to his orders). Instead of taking time to face the own situation thoroughly and to invite outsiders or experienced Sangha for help, or to be open to check what the internal sources of these events are, NKT started a world wide media campaign accusing the Dalai Lama of all what they do themselves, having no shame to spread their misleading messages at every place in the internet, and attacking every opponent as a liar - a very fine mean to distract NKT members from introspection, doubts, questions, and to clean the own place. So where is the change? I think it is also incorrect that GKG accused Steven W. of that he is guilty of the situation, it is dependent arising what happened and GKG’s own actions are involved in this, his own policies, his own views and his own teachings or what he didn’t teach and that NKT split away from its root, the Gelug school.
If NKT really wants to clean the situation, there is a lot to do. I wish for that process all the required conditions and able persons. It could be very good to relate back to the roots and to invite other Geshes or masters from the own school to offer help, teachings and their point of view what can be done that it turns out well. At least this option is worthwhile to think of. I heard also that INFORM tries to offer some guidance.
However, as already argued and reason were given elsewhere NKT is not the ancient Kadam school.
You state:
“I think one of the reasons so many of these blogs on the NKT turn ugly is both sides forget that the other side actually has a good intention. If we recall that we all do have a good intention, then we will stop attacking one another and start acknowledging the valid points the others raise. This might lower the volume, but raise the level of the discourse. I hope this happens.“
I don’t know. For me it is very tricky to claim: „I have a good intention.“ the mind is very tricky and I doubt my own mind. It is easy to claim, I have a good intention, while pride or hostility or even anger is in the mind. Maybe we can agree that we all are humans making faults and being able to recognize and correct them if we are honest with ourselves. Everything can be changed to the better if there is honesty and respect, self-respect and respect for others.
Maybe it helps on an artificial level to think like you suggest, I am not so sure about the benefits. If deception is involved then ignorance is the basis of action and this is not good either. To work with such an issue may be more complex and more things have to be taken into perspective. I am not so sure if this will really work.
Finally I see your criticism of NKS. I agree generalisations do not help. But what you say about NKS isn’t this itself a generalisation?
I signed out from NKS and although I am aware that there are generalisations (maybe a lot, I have to think more about this points) there are also no generalisations in NKS. If I remember the polls at NKS, they were fair and all could state their pov and it reflected a wide variety. (I wonder also why NKT members are so keen to criticize that forum and even to close it via complaint to Yahoo. The NKS allows a far more variety of statements than any NKT chat forum has ever allowed.)
Also I wonder how “innocent bystanders” can get “mental pain”, the forum is no open forum and it is made very clear on the front page, what the purpose and the understanding of the owner/group is. When there are so many happy NKTers, then it’s fine. If they get doubt, this is also fine. Doubts help to investigate more deeply and to get rid of wrong views. If you have certainty there is no doubt, just certainty.
To understand doubt it is good to look what faith is:
Faith (tib. dad-pa, skt. shradda) develops with respect to qualities who really exist, it is based on facts not superstitions (see e.g. Berzin’s website e.g. Definition of Belief (faith))
Faith can be explained shortly as
Quote
A. Berzin
believing a fact to be true. A constructive emotion that focuses on something existent and validly knowable, something with good qualities, or an actual potential, and considers it either existent or true, or considers a fact about it as true. Some translators render the term as "faith."
A Buddhist has to check what is true and what is not.
If people have doubts this offers the chance to investigate more deeply. If this process is done based on the three defining characteristics a Mahayana student should possess - being non-partisan, having intelligence to discriminate correct from wrong teachings, and having diligence - the student develops certainty about the object. This faith in facts / really existing qualities which really exist, based on thoroughly investigation is the faith which is unshakeable and this faith is different from blind faith.
I wonder why you request for 'not making people to loose their faith' and you do not care at all how much NKT is “destroying faith” into the Dalai Lama and the Gelug school, by portraying the former as an “evil oppressor”, “Buddhist dictator”, “evil and cruel”, “hypocrite”, “liar” etc. and the Gelug school as “very degenerated”, while portraying oneself as “very pure”? So if you have concerns for the faith of others you should have it also for those people not affiliated with NKT, and not only for NKT members.
Most people have initial (maybe blind) faith in HHDL on the other hand his qualities are obvious so it is easy to have faith in facts, that’s why most people feel it easy to have faith in HHDL, he is an authentic master who lives what he teaches. (A view you may not share.)
The doubts people have in NKT: if these doubts lack a basis, then there is no reason to worry, if there is a basis for doubts then there is a need to worry. If people have valid reasons for doubts and these lead people towards leaving NKT, they do not loose their path, they are just leaving an organisation, this is their freedom. There are many Buddhist schools they can follow outside of NKT.
To get certainty about facts and to place faith in really existing qualities needs a lot of spiritual work and also many corrections in one'e own attitudes and views. The spiritual path is not free of suffering, one must be able to handle a lot of suffering. Doubts and confusion are just parts of the path. If one works through it, patiently and with understanding, one learns a lot and has more clarity and more stability than previously.
You state:
“Many then become disenchanted with Buddhism and religion altogether and are left with no path at all. I find this very sad. This has happened with several of my students as a result of the activities of the members of NKS and, respectfully, of yourself.”
If due to Buddhist’s actions people become disenchanted with Buddhism and religion altogether then this is indeed sad. I think that’s why it is important to look what our faults are which led to such a situation. (Do you think this is because what I say or due to the NKS?)
You state:
“So I humbly ask you to please keep this in mind as you spend your time on blog sites and as you guide the NKS group. Please help those who are turning to you to not lose their interest in a spiritual path. Please help them to not generalize. Please help them to be mindful how their activities could be causing unnecessary mental pain.”
Mhm. I do not guide the NKS, I signed out. I spend some time on blog sites. Why? I wish to correct the wrong claims made there by NKT or NKT’s members. If there are no wrong or misleading claims (from my pov) there is no need to state anything for me, because I have no impulse to correct it.
For a better background:
My complete activity is mainly based on two points: firstly, someone said after a long period of silence he entered into after he had listened to a former NKT follower: “if only one single person can be protected to step into such a devastating situation, what a blessing” and secondly that I recognized how dominant NKT is in the internet and how much they control information. When NKT started even to spread their misleading claims in Wikipedia and by thinking that newbies can’t judge NKT when there is only the NKT perspective on NKT, I got active on Wikipedia. So based on this I started to act.
My main aim in the beginning was to protect people to blindly step into NKT. Later my motivation was to help to offer proper information about NKT, so that a newbie is able to judge before he enters NKT. This motivation changed when confronted with former members unable to put their experiences into perspective, then I felt it would be good if I write things which may help them to understand NKT and thereby offer help in their process to leave NKT. Another motivation was to correct the misinformation of NKT on different subjects, and to give Dharma information or background information people didn’t learn in NKT or they hide to them. There was a constant change on what motivation I acted. My motivation was sometimes good, sometimes not.
I have also many doubts about what I do. I decided different times to stop. However, friends said I should be more flexible and it would be needed. So I went also through doubts and distrusted myself, distrust my own motivation. On the other hand people acknowledged that it was / is helpful to them what I wrote… If it is not helpful to NKT members, maybe they ignore me, how other ignore NKT about what they state about HHDL, the Tibetans and Gelug school? Others ignore NKT to protect their minds or to not waste their time. This is also a solution. NKT members who may "loose faith" can follow their example.
Back to your request:
As long as NKT acts, maybe I can act also?
You can see this at this forum: Who came first? Who came first at Wikipedia and in all forums? NKT. I came almost at every place later. So if NKT stop, I stop too ;-)
If NKT does not stop, why should I stop?
If NKT has the right to tell the world how wrong the Dalai Lama and how supreme they are, why I should I have no right, to state, that I disagree with NKT and how much they deceive others?
To put it into perspective, I am not the only one disagreeing with NKT but it looks like NKT perceives me as their main opponent?
Thank you and please excuse my long reply. t
Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2008 08:46AM by Tenzin Peljor.
Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by:
Tenzin Peljor
()
Date: October 28, 2008 06:20PM
I wish to broaden one point I claimed above. I said: "they are just leaving an organisation, this is their freedom. "
Ok from a NKT follower's perspective they are leaving a "pure tradition", there may be a doubt if this is their freedom or correct.
If one looks in the biographies of the masters it is correct to leave a certain school. Gampopa followed for about six years the Kadam school and left the Kadam school to follow Milarepa, one can posit that as leaving Kadam school and following the Kagyue school. Did this harm him or his followers or the Buddhadharma or his lineage? No. Also Milarepa, Dromtönpa and Naropa had different masters before they finally met their lama they had the deepest karmic connection with.
If one looks into Je Tsongkhapa's biography. He received the upasaka vows by the Karmapa, he left his first teacher who taught him in his youth even without saying "good bye" to go to Central Tibet to study there. He disagreed with many of what his teachers have taught yet he had respect for them. Instead of following a certain school he preferred to receive teachings from the most outstanding masters from all schools. When one of his teachers advised he should set up a monastery and teach, Je Tsongkhapa instead made a long term retreat to get a closer connection to Manjushri who finally became his root lama.
Buddhism and a spiritual path is not that one steps into a tradition or Buddhist organisation for what ever reasons and has to follow it forever. In the Buddhist scriptures it is described as a common phenomenon that people "indefinite in the Mahayana lineage" may change to the Hinayana school or "indefinite in the Hinayana lineage" may change to the Mahayana. There is no statement that this is wrong, it is just a portray what is a common phenomenon based on peoples capacity, karmic background. There are many examples of present and past of masters (also in Gelug school) who left a certain Buddhist tradition to follow another, there is nothing wrong with this.
The problem I see with NKT is: the setting of NKT makes their followers completely dependent on NKT and installs actively fear and guilt to leave NKT. A former member of NKT portrayed this process in an interview to a Buddhist magazine: "If you follow the system of NKT you will loose all your freedom and this is the opposite of what Buddhism teaches."
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2008 06:24PM by Tenzin Peljor.
Ok from a NKT follower's perspective they are leaving a "pure tradition", there may be a doubt if this is their freedom or correct.
If one looks in the biographies of the masters it is correct to leave a certain school. Gampopa followed for about six years the Kadam school and left the Kadam school to follow Milarepa, one can posit that as leaving Kadam school and following the Kagyue school. Did this harm him or his followers or the Buddhadharma or his lineage? No. Also Milarepa, Dromtönpa and Naropa had different masters before they finally met their lama they had the deepest karmic connection with.
If one looks into Je Tsongkhapa's biography. He received the upasaka vows by the Karmapa, he left his first teacher who taught him in his youth even without saying "good bye" to go to Central Tibet to study there. He disagreed with many of what his teachers have taught yet he had respect for them. Instead of following a certain school he preferred to receive teachings from the most outstanding masters from all schools. When one of his teachers advised he should set up a monastery and teach, Je Tsongkhapa instead made a long term retreat to get a closer connection to Manjushri who finally became his root lama.
Buddhism and a spiritual path is not that one steps into a tradition or Buddhist organisation for what ever reasons and has to follow it forever. In the Buddhist scriptures it is described as a common phenomenon that people "indefinite in the Mahayana lineage" may change to the Hinayana school or "indefinite in the Hinayana lineage" may change to the Mahayana. There is no statement that this is wrong, it is just a portray what is a common phenomenon based on peoples capacity, karmic background. There are many examples of present and past of masters (also in Gelug school) who left a certain Buddhist tradition to follow another, there is nothing wrong with this.
The problem I see with NKT is: the setting of NKT makes their followers completely dependent on NKT and installs actively fear and guilt to leave NKT. A former member of NKT portrayed this process in an interview to a Buddhist magazine: "If you follow the system of NKT you will loose all your freedom and this is the opposite of what Buddhism teaches."
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2008 06:24PM by Tenzin Peljor.
Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by:
interestingtonote
()
Date: October 28, 2008 08:07PM
DSPAK,
Thank you for posting. Since you have been involved with NKT for nearly 15 years perhaps you can answer these questions:
1)Why has Geshe Kelsang not issued a public statement of apology to the sexual abuse victims of his two successors, Genla Thubten Gyatso (aka Neil Elliott) and Genla Samden (aka Steve Wass)?
2)Why has Geshe Kelsang never admitted any wrongdoing in this regard, or admitted that these choices in successors were a mistake?
3)Why did the abuse involving these men continue for so long, and why was the NKT leadership not more forthcoming when the men were finally relieved from their positions of power?
4)Why do NKT's rules speak against monks having female assistants, but Geshe Kelsang's assistants are female?
5)Why did Geshe Kelsang not consult other Buddhist leaders when he single handedly changed ordination vows in NKT?
6)Why are monks and nuns in NKT not offered any type of financial or housing support? Why do renunciates have to pay to stay at Dharma centres?
7)When NKT monks and nuns who have devoted their lives to the organization get old and need support, will NKT take responsibility?
8)Why did Geshe Kelsang fire Lucy James and others for not sending enough students to demos against the Dalai Lama, when NKT has explicitly claimed people are free to attend or not attend according to their own wish?
9)Why has the NKT placed Neil Elliott, a former sexual abuser of nuns during his time as second in command at NKT, in a position of power in the Western Shugden society?
10)Why does the NKT send out people to teach when they have barely studied themselves? How can people with only 6 months to a year of study be prepared to teach others? Why does NKT not make people wait longer to develop qualifications like other Buddhist organizations?
Thank you for posting. Since you have been involved with NKT for nearly 15 years perhaps you can answer these questions:
1)Why has Geshe Kelsang not issued a public statement of apology to the sexual abuse victims of his two successors, Genla Thubten Gyatso (aka Neil Elliott) and Genla Samden (aka Steve Wass)?
2)Why has Geshe Kelsang never admitted any wrongdoing in this regard, or admitted that these choices in successors were a mistake?
3)Why did the abuse involving these men continue for so long, and why was the NKT leadership not more forthcoming when the men were finally relieved from their positions of power?
4)Why do NKT's rules speak against monks having female assistants, but Geshe Kelsang's assistants are female?
5)Why did Geshe Kelsang not consult other Buddhist leaders when he single handedly changed ordination vows in NKT?
6)Why are monks and nuns in NKT not offered any type of financial or housing support? Why do renunciates have to pay to stay at Dharma centres?
7)When NKT monks and nuns who have devoted their lives to the organization get old and need support, will NKT take responsibility?
8)Why did Geshe Kelsang fire Lucy James and others for not sending enough students to demos against the Dalai Lama, when NKT has explicitly claimed people are free to attend or not attend according to their own wish?
9)Why has the NKT placed Neil Elliott, a former sexual abuser of nuns during his time as second in command at NKT, in a position of power in the Western Shugden society?
10)Why does the NKT send out people to teach when they have barely studied themselves? How can people with only 6 months to a year of study be prepared to teach others? Why does NKT not make people wait longer to develop qualifications like other Buddhist organizations?
Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by:
Tenzin Peljor
()
Date: October 31, 2008 10:03PM
Dear Dspak08,
maybe my reply is was not helpful at all and is destructive for a fair dialogue.
Assuming a good motivation which led you to post your post above: You tried to build a bridge with the emphasize on 'both sides have a good motivation' and I questioned that approach and thereby rejected that bridge, and a possible basis for communication was thereby destroyed by me. Maybe its good to restart again by using the most basic Buddhist or human principle: 'not to harm others and being of benefit to others' as the basis of communication and analysis. To focus on that could serve as a bridge both of us can accept and it is an 'ideology' we and all Buddhists share.
The wish to avoid to harm others and being of benefit to others could be suited for putting things into perspective and for a constructive dialogue.
I think almost every mother has the wish to avoid to harm her child and to benefit the child as much as possible. Nevertheless faults happen dependent arisingly. In some instances the child was actually harmed by the mother, although she may have had "a good motivation" or at least no (conscious) intention to harm. If such faults happen, this doesn't mean the mother is bad or not worthy of respect. Also I think, it is destructive to scold her all the time or to speak only about some weaknesses she may have, instead of supporting her in the most constructive manner to do what helps the child and her and does not create harm to others.
I think, it is a one-way road only to criticize NKT.
Best Wishes, t
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2008 10:09PM by Tenzin Peljor.
maybe my reply is was not helpful at all and is destructive for a fair dialogue.
Assuming a good motivation which led you to post your post above: You tried to build a bridge with the emphasize on 'both sides have a good motivation' and I questioned that approach and thereby rejected that bridge, and a possible basis for communication was thereby destroyed by me. Maybe its good to restart again by using the most basic Buddhist or human principle: 'not to harm others and being of benefit to others' as the basis of communication and analysis. To focus on that could serve as a bridge both of us can accept and it is an 'ideology' we and all Buddhists share.
The wish to avoid to harm others and being of benefit to others could be suited for putting things into perspective and for a constructive dialogue.
I think almost every mother has the wish to avoid to harm her child and to benefit the child as much as possible. Nevertheless faults happen dependent arisingly. In some instances the child was actually harmed by the mother, although she may have had "a good motivation" or at least no (conscious) intention to harm. If such faults happen, this doesn't mean the mother is bad or not worthy of respect. Also I think, it is destructive to scold her all the time or to speak only about some weaknesses she may have, instead of supporting her in the most constructive manner to do what helps the child and her and does not create harm to others.
I think, it is a one-way road only to criticize NKT.
Best Wishes, t
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2008 10:09PM by Tenzin Peljor.
Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by:
blue sky
()
Date: November 07, 2008 04:31AM
I'm interested in learning more about meditation and attended a few classes at a nearby Starbucks, which I later learned were being taught by an NKT monk.
I didn't connect with what he was teaching (especially when he read from books written by his spiritual leader) and am now going more with my intuition and keeping things simple -- mostly focusing on my breath as it fills and then leaves my belly.
There was one meditation technique which I especially didn't like. We were instructed to keep repeating something along the lines of "I am like stone. A stone doesn't think or feel." (This is just a paraphrase based on what I remember.) I could see where such a technique could leave a practitioner vulnerable to brainwashing. As a woman, the last thing I want is a male telling me to stop thinking or feeling. It felt unnatural. It was creepy.
I've since done some research online and am learning that meditation can lead to unhealthy results. I've just started reading Camille Maurine and Lorin Roche's book Meditation Secrets for Women. Apparently, Roche wrote his master's thesis on the "hazards of meditation and the crisis points in a meditator's development." So far this book seems more sane and a lot more appealing than what I was being taught at the NKT class.
I didn't connect with what he was teaching (especially when he read from books written by his spiritual leader) and am now going more with my intuition and keeping things simple -- mostly focusing on my breath as it fills and then leaves my belly.
There was one meditation technique which I especially didn't like. We were instructed to keep repeating something along the lines of "I am like stone. A stone doesn't think or feel." (This is just a paraphrase based on what I remember.) I could see where such a technique could leave a practitioner vulnerable to brainwashing. As a woman, the last thing I want is a male telling me to stop thinking or feeling. It felt unnatural. It was creepy.
I've since done some research online and am learning that meditation can lead to unhealthy results. I've just started reading Camille Maurine and Lorin Roche's book Meditation Secrets for Women. Apparently, Roche wrote his master's thesis on the "hazards of meditation and the crisis points in a meditator's development." So far this book seems more sane and a lot more appealing than what I was being taught at the NKT class.
Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by:
Tenzin Peljor
()
Date: November 07, 2008 06:30AM
Meditation includes also to meditate on constructive emotions, like love or compassion, faith etc. or just to be aware of emotions like anger or jealousy or being aware of thoughts.
There are many types of meditations. If you like to read something by a Buddhist masters who works with scientists, I can strongly recommend "The Joy of Living: Unlocking the Secret and Science of Happiness" by Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche. He teaches also how to use sleep, taste, pain and even panic attacks for meditation. You'll find some videos here, so you can check before you buy the book: [mingyur.org]
NKT focuses mainly on a certain type of meditation but there are many more methods. Breathing meditation is fine.
Good luck for your spiritual path!
There are many types of meditations. If you like to read something by a Buddhist masters who works with scientists, I can strongly recommend "The Joy of Living: Unlocking the Secret and Science of Happiness" by Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche. He teaches also how to use sleep, taste, pain and even panic attacks for meditation. You'll find some videos here, so you can check before you buy the book: [mingyur.org]
NKT focuses mainly on a certain type of meditation but there are many more methods. Breathing meditation is fine.
Good luck for your spiritual path!
Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by:
dspak08
()
Date: November 26, 2008 11:42PM
Quote
interestingtonote
DSPAK,
Thank you for posting. Since you have been involved with NKT for nearly 15 years perhaps you can answer these questions:
1)Why has Geshe Kelsang not issued a public statement of apology to the sexual abuse victims of his two successors, Genla Thubten Gyatso (aka Neil Elliott) and Genla Samden (aka Steve Wass)?
2)Why has Geshe Kelsang never admitted any wrongdoing in this regard, or admitted that these choices in successors were a mistake?
3)Why did the abuse involving these men continue for so long, and why was the NKT leadership not more forthcoming when the men were finally relieved from their positions of power?
4)Why do NKT's rules speak against monks having female assistants, but Geshe Kelsang's assistants are female?
5)Why did Geshe Kelsang not consult other Buddhist leaders when he single handedly changed ordination vows in NKT?
6)Why are monks and nuns in NKT not offered any type of financial or housing support? Why do renunciates have to pay to stay at Dharma centres?
7)When NKT monks and nuns who have devoted their lives to the organization get old and need support, will NKT take responsibility?
8)Why did Geshe Kelsang fire Lucy James and others for not sending enough students to demos against the Dalai Lama, when NKT has explicitly claimed people are free to attend or not attend according to their own wish?
9)Why has the NKT placed Neil Elliott, a former sexual abuser of nuns during his time as second in command at NKT, in a position of power in the Western Shugden society?
10)Why does the NKT send out people to teach when they have barely studied themselves? How can people with only 6 months to a year of study be prepared to teach others? Why does NKT not make people wait longer to develop qualifications like other Buddhist organizations?
Sorry for the long delay in responding. I have a family and a full-time job, so it is difficult for me to find the time to post on internet forums. Here are my answers to your ten questions. These ten questions are the most typical of the ones we all get asked in the NKT, so thank you for giving me the opportunity to try and answer them.
(1) Please see [www.newkadampatruth.org]
(2) Geshe Kelsang has engaged in no wrongdoing in this regard. Both of these monks also did a lot of good things and helped many people, so during the years before their misconduct became known, the choices did not seem like mistakes. If people argue, as they sometimes do: “Geshe Kelsang is meant to be a Buddha and be omniscient, so he should have known”, the answer is that Geshe Kelsang never claims to be a Buddha. He never claims to be clairvoyant. If in fact he is a Buddha, (a matter only for personal conjecture not public debate), those choices were not mistakes, as Buddhas do not make mistakes. However, they do have to work with the karmic options they have at their disposal and with impure sentient beings. If Geshe Kelsang is not a Buddha, why assume that he knew that these choices were a mistake before making the appointments or before the bad behavior became apparent? What was his wrongdoing? Did the American electorate know that George Bush would engage in such disastrous policies? Were they engaging in wrongdoing when they elected him? As soon as Geshe Kelsang discovered their bad behavior, the monks were removed from their posts. In a similar way, George Bush and his party have been replaced. However hopeful much of the American electorate is now, only time can actually tell whether their next elected president is “a mistake” or a success. Life is always uncertain like this. People have to make decisions based on the information they have available. Either way, Geshe Kelsang did the best he could.
(3) As soon as Geshe Kelsang was certain of the situation, he acted immediately and decisively to remove the monks from their responsibilities. See [newkadampatruth.wordpress.com]. What does 'more forthcoming' look like to you; I don't understand what you mean.
(4) In general, monks and nuns (and also lay teachers) do not need assistants at all. Beyond that, I cannot find the rule you are referring to.
(5) For the simple reason that he did not change the ordination vows for all of Buddhism, only for ordination within the NKT. Since the NKT is an independent spiritual tradition, there was no need to consult anyone else. Besides, he did not invent a brand new ordination; he is simply using the definitive meaning of an existing form of ordination. (http://newkadampatruth.wordpress.com/2008/09/24/answering-those-who-disparage-the-nkt-ordination-part-one/). Trijang Rinpoche gave Geshe Kelsang permission to change the presentation of the teachings for Westerners and for this modern age and he has done this. Buddha himself told Ananda that the Vinaya could change in accordance with the needs of society and Geshe Kelsang has done this without compromising its meaning. Geshe Kelsang is following the advice of his Spiritual Guide and Buddha, so there's no problem.
(6) Unlike in the East, it's normal for people living in the West, including ordained Sangha, to take responsibility for their own living expenses. There is parity between ordained and lay people in this respect. (It does not seem necessarily a good idea or fair to offer free accommodation and financial support to monks and nuns because this might be an incentive for some people to get ordained for the wrong reasons, just to have an easy life.)
Despite what has been incorrectly written about the NKT (in 1996 by Madeline Bunting) being 'a rich sect' with 'large mansions', what it means in reality is that NKT Centers have a lot of expenses to cover every month. For example, at a certain average-sized center I know of it costs £4,000 per month to keep the door open. This money has to be found every month. Centers simply do not have the resources to support all of their ordained Sangha. The Resident Teacher is supported and there are some sponsored positions, but there isn't a bottomless pit of money or a blank check from which to draw and centers don't have millionaire benefactors crawling out of the woodwork to finance every whim!
Those who work full-time for the larger Centers, whether lay or ordained, are however often sponsored for this work, including a large percentage of monks and nuns. Another positive reason for this is that Kadampa practitioners and the Kadam Dharma are designed to be integrated into society, not cloistered in some monastery divorced from the world. It helps for Kadampa practitioners to understand about the lives and difficulties of normal people. By working and having to pay bills like everybody else, they can learn how to connect the Dharma with modern life, not a lifestyle that existed thousands of years ago in India. Moreover, renunciation is a state of mind, which can be, cultivated anywhere. Monks and nuns who show how to integrate training in renunciation with working a normal job are demonstrating the viability of Dharma in our modern world and are very inspiring to others.
(7) There is no official structure in place at this time to provide this automatic support, but in practice, so far there are many cases of older people in the NKT being taken care of at the larger Dharma Centers, such as Manjushri KMC in the UK and some individual Centers.
(8) This is an urban myth. No one has been fired for not sending students to demos. (This myth derives from a misreading of the private letter sent to this student, which was actually posted all over the Internet without her knowledge or consent.) NKT practitioners are free to attend the demonstrations or not as they choose because the demonstrations have nothing to do with the NKT organization. That is a genuine choice for, judging by the numbers, it is not a majority of NKT students who attend (there are tens of thousands of NKT students in 1100 Centers and groups in 40 countries, and only a few thousand have attended demonstrations).
(9) The NKT has not placed Neil Elliott anywhere within the WSS because the NKT is not the WSS. Nor does he have any position within the WSS, except for briefly during the London demonstration when he helped coordinate with the police. Related to the point you are trying to make, it does not seem very charitable to say that because somebody made a mistake in the past they are no longer eligible to engage in virtue later. If this were the case, then we would all be in very big trouble, since in the past we have all done everything.
(10) Please see [www.newkadampatruth.org]
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