Apologies, but my 'quote' function did not seem to work, which is why I have reverted to color font style.

Yasmin wrote:

there is an old saying, don't talk about religion or politics at the dinner table; perhaps on this board it is better to focus on the religion, and leave out the politics..

Tricky terrain, I totally agree....problem is, that is very much part of the whole (Romney is an example) 'picture'. The 'problem' as I see it, is really that the lines become blurred at some stage which is why it becomes almost impossible to simply stick to the letter, even if I understand exactly what you're driving at... And, if it weren't so 'obvious', it would be hell of a lot easier to stick to "one paradigm"...if you know what I mean....

Though I suspect I have different views from you on many things,(including politics) I do have sympathy with how you feel about questioning everything.Having grown up in a group and had to question all the social mores and attitudes that I had been taught were obviously correct, I also got to look at outside society and see that even non cult culture is based on in some ways a similar set of assumptions,not necessarily grounded in anything other than "this is the way is should be done".

Well, if you like, America was 'my cult' for as long as I can remember... Yes, it might sound strange to you, but it just hit me while I was walking back to my flat... I'll get back to that later...

And like you, any religious leader interpreting God for me is something i am not comfortable with. Maybe it is because of past experiences?

Well, the above might shed some light on 'my past experiences'... And, as 'exiting' any cultish group or relationship is, everything is basically turned upside down (incl. politics), one’s whole world view, everything one has ever held dear or believed in, is torn to shreds.

And, I am rather sure, it might be 'unheard of' that America as a country could be deemed as a 'cult' in & of itself - but it was for me. It might not make much sense to those reading it, but then again, I think it is also called a "Cult Education Forum" & I'm far from being the only here who's at a loss as to how on earth it was ever possible for it to grow to such unparalleled proportions.

This is taking the 'cult' ideology to whole different level all together....

As another aside, it would probably be more polite not to change someones' user name.People choose user names for a variety of reasons, not all of them based on gender. Even your name is fairly gender neutral.Best just to call people what they want to be called.

Point taken.

Even if I risk being banned, and, with having more vitriol come my way, it seems to me, that some people get away with flaming without so much as being questioned or put in their place (double standards are in full working order), while the newbies, have to 'take it in' without so much as being allowed to question why a certain contributor can get away with murder & others, who they don't agree with or would like to send off to never, neverland; are a kind of 'free for all' to be torn to shreds & be sent 'packing'.

What is the agenda here? Are some people the 'darlings' & others are sent back into their own "'hell' - coz' that's all you deserve!"?

Some people have a very long-running leash & can do as they please, and others have to swallow insult & genuine dislike (hatred seems to be a more appropriate term here) while, from what I have read here over & over again, personal attacks are considered a no-no by Mr. Ross himself.

Or have I once again misinterpreted or misunderstood something - giving others free license to continue their abuse? Because that's exactly what corboy was doing.

Corboy wrote:

Our posts are not for our own private self expression, but to serve the community of RR.com readers--and that means not boring them or making them wonder if someone has been typing while under the influence of some chemical not endogenously produced by the human body.

Sounds pretty much totalitarian if you ask me... And, BTW, "you're not supposed to express your own personal opinion!"? No? Really? Well, that's news to me if I read through most of the posts here (especially some threads on this forum), it seems to be a lot about personal opinion... Or the MLM schemes thread...

Am I missing something here?

According to corboy, you're not supposed to express your personal opinion: "Now just shut up, you ..." whatever... calling me deranged, boring, thinking I'm stupid, insulting my experience while this whole forum is, as far as I know, an exchange of what other people have gone through without this then turning into a means to attack them with it.

Why is corboy not being called on it?

Is that not considered flaming? She makes it personal. Here's another one:

I didnt intend for this to become a launch pad into a conspiracy theory diatribe in weird font styles.

and

X, I am no longer clear on what you want from RR.com and why you are here.

'x-ing me out'. Literally. Hating my guts.

This is as obvious as you can get. Basically she's telling me to f*** off & go somewhere else. It's rude, it's very, very rude. If it would've been me, I'd have gotten a warning from Mr. Ross by now.

Some seem to be more equal than others, or am I wrong in that perception?

And last but not least, 'corboy' claims to speak for the whole message board - there's that totalitarian streak shining through once more:

Others are probably becoming puzzled, too.

Seriously odd quote, if you ask me. Just because corboy is 'puzzled' doesn't mean others are, as you have obviously proven.

So, here we are again at square one. 'Politics' of .... favouritism?

What's the bias here? I'm just asking a very simple question.

Like I have mentioned in my first post, the climax of what brought me to this website in the first place was this shyster of diabolical proportions that really put the "crown" on the whole betrayal.

My 'American cult' had become as ugly & mean as the one here who claims to be whiter than white & 'holier than thou', carefully maintaining their stance of portraying themselves as" knowing & being above board" and people's experiences not being "a matter for own private self-expression!" (which to one degree or other, are actually what the majority of the posters do here & makes this whole forum what it is...just pointing out the obvious).

I don't expect that they (corboy) would have the decency, maturity & spiritual integrity to apologise.

Does it upset me? Yes. Very much so.

What's more painful though is, that the bias seems to be unspokenly leaning towards one over the other. It also, unfortunately, confirms rather than undoes what I have been subject to for all my life to a greater or lesser extent.

'Freedom of speech' for some but not for others? Different 'criteria' for different contributors?

The same bias that kept me exempt from participating in the Green Card lottery... The irony is unbelievable if it weren't so devastating.

Like I mentioned above, I was 'cult'-ivated by Americana from age 2 onwards. That I happened to be a 'commodity' that was a nice means to 'process' me as some 'undisclosed', illegal "trans"-action with the price tag to go with it (some solid $20,000) by HOLT Children’s "Services" was all it took to 'implant' some odd ideologies of "America being the promised land".

And then some...

There are more Koreans who have gone through this. Who bought into the "American dream" by way of adoption only to end up killing themselves because the racial bias didn't allow them to ever feel being a part of the society they were brought into from outside. This is very, very serious given the cultish outset that is being 'sold' as "goodwill".

For the US missionaries around the world are doing exactly that. Indoctrinating the unknowing with "America is the greatest in the world". America thus grooms & 'cult'-ivates a 'cult' like following.

I may be the first one to openly speak about this & break that 'taboo'.

The casualties it leaves behind are then just 'good enough' to "shut up & to not express any personal opinion".

One cannot move on one when one has been entrapped into a 'cult' they never asked for...and then, when one finally summons up the courage to actually ask for help, to be treated in a ...?... manner.

Finding out about my having been merely 'a means to an end', nearly killed me. Realising the whole extent of the betrayal by the 'American cult' was more than I could ever have imagined possible. Unbearable. Insufferable & intolerable. Anything better but to be left with all that rage & pain.... I'd rather have been dead than having to continue one more day in that place. Pure hell.

I would've hoped that this forum would have allowed me the room to rectify some of those badly damaged 'ideologies'.

I hope it still has the greatness & the generosity to bestow that. To truly help me heal from 'exiting' my 'cult'.

The fact that I'm even on this forum is proof that I am willing to move beyond my 'past experiences'. But I can't do it on my own.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2008 02:16AM by xythos.

Since mumbo jumbo is not just limited to "new age" cults/sects or other bizarre means of prying on the unsuspecting, it might be worth finding out more about one of the biggest, yet completely ignored 'cults' of all.

I will provide the links to the topic. This is meant more to engage your true independent critical thinking rather than referring to "Sagan's 'Debunk Kit'" or other such 'sources' as if they were a replacment for another 'cult' text/bible/mantra, meditation technique, belief system, doctrine or what have you.

It is important if we are to truly break free from the whole systematic output of 'cult methodology' to first of all recognise our [/i]own[/i] un-/subconscious conditioning that has been "groomed" by all the years of 'following' one "system of thought methodology/religion/belief", etc. 'over another'...

The layers run deep & they often kick in without the individual even being aware of it, such as shown not only in my previous post on this thread but also on



Note:

There have been some individuals here (you know who you are...!) that have tried to make me look like a conspiracy nutter or dare to 'suggest a diversion of cult thinking methodology' & hence, continue the very same 'thought processes' they truly believe & 'think' to 'want' to move away from yet continue that very same approach without even being aware of it when proceeding to make somebody look 'off', 'different' or "whatever other adjectiv they might cxome up with when trying to 'expose' somebody as not "adhering to 'accept' their p.o.v.s as "the word of knowledge & authority" thereby 'cult-ivating' their own unacknowledged need to be considered "above", "better than", "more aware/experienced" while sorley lacking life experience that no books or university campuses can teach you.

Since mumbo jumbo is not just limited to "new age" cults/sects or other bizarre means of prying on the unsuspecting, unaware/gullible it might be worth finding out more about one of the biggest, yet completely ignored 'cults' of all.

I will provide the links to the topics.

This however, more than anything, is meant to engage your true independent critical thinking rather than referring to "Sagan's 'Debunk Kit'" or other such 'sources' as if they were a replacement for another 'cult' text/bible/mantra, meditation technique, belief system, doctrine or what have you. It is certainly 'a trend' I have noticed here.

It is important if we are to truly break free from the whole systematic output of 'cult thought methodology & thinking' to first of all recognise our own un-/subconscious conditioning that has been "groomed" by all these years of 'following' one "system of thought methodology/religion/belief", etc. 'over another'...

(A good example would be replacing 'communism' for 'democratic' political orientation, or "Christian" doctrine for "anti" Christianity, or "Cult" vs "Anti-Cult". The basis of "one over the other" is the same, the "black vs white" is another such example, too, whereas the truly more spiritually balanced & mature approach would ideally be a medium as well as harmonious integration of "two sides of the same coin".

It is very tempting to 'fall for' one's own 'myth' as some here have already put beautifully on display.

The allure to the ego (especially the spiritual little self - hence, ego - not the spiritually authentic Self - which is our Soul's Self) never ceases to trap & mislead those unaware who are blind to the pitfalls (also be referred to as "blind spots") all the while thinking they have 'already' left this behind themselves...

Vigilance of watching one's own tendency to fall for one's own "myth" is the very discipline necessary to not "follow" in the "guru's/sect/leader/cult" footsteps one has left in order to 'break free'... And, those who would be most tempted to "brush it off as nonsense'" & false 'accusations' are the most susceptible because they like to 'cult'-ivate the illusion that they are immune to that very temptation yet these individuals are most often those who have a low self-esteem & need to feel 'confirmed' in their sense of being "better than"...'

The mind, after all, feeds off the ego's self-sustenance. The mind will tell the ego anything to 'coddle' & "lull it back" intot a false sense of security & safety.

That is also why the mind is the biggest con-artist in the book...!!!

It will 'sell' the ego anything under the sun to secure its own survival. And, as soon as that 'survival' "looks" as if being at risk, the mind will step in to prevent the 'veil' from being lifted.

Fear & its resulting resistance, have a lot to do with even being willing enough to consider something outside a ' preset/offered guideline' of "thought methodology" - the illusion of having left one prison only to walk with 'eyes wide open' into another, such as an "anti-" attitude, being all 'intellectual' & apparently unemotional or "sensible & diplomatic" yet having a deep fear of looking at one's unresolved emotional dump in one's own backyard so-to-speak that made it even possible in the first place to "fall" for the myth - (maybe....maybe, to the exclusion of those born into a cult - which makes it all the harder), is the most obvious 'escape hatch' by those who like to delude themselves that they have 'already' grown 'above' the "cult" thinking...

It's also referred to as "rationalising" one's approach & refusing to see that one has not even begun the deep tisssue process of 'un-'cultivating & exchanging an out-of-date "hard disc" that functions whether you are aware of it or not.

The layers run deep & they often kick in without the individual even being aware of it, such as shown not only in my previous post on this thread but also on [forum.culteducation.com]

I apologise for the terrible writing style on these two posts...however, beyond that, it clearly shows what I am trying to convey here - the seeming/apparent resistance by the very person trying to label me as 'this or that' (& which, I intuit, has had silent 'yes-sayers' lining up behind them - i.e., 'group/cult gathering' to confirm one's "need to belong"), rather than look at their own 'indoctrinated mentality' which has undergone the whole spiel of brainwashing & which is still in "perfect functioning order" to the complete oblivion of still being "under the influence" even though they might have thought to be 'free' of this....

The programming of a belief system that has been deeply ingrained into the subconscious is like a hard disc that keeps running autonomously (auto-pilot) without necessary 'interference' by the individual.

Once the programme has been 'put into place' (whether that is plain 'cultural conditioning' or the specific "cult"-ivation & programming of a doctrine, church, meditation 'system', political, environmental outlook, some 'guru/new age author'/political &/or 'ideological faction' & "brand of teaching" - the basic approach remains in place.

The danger is not! just the "exposing of the lie/guru/cult/sect", the real danger is to be blind & unaware to the deeply ingrained cult thinking methodology that is still in place even if a member has 'left' "a" cult.

It is not, by any means, a 'safeguard' that one does not "apply" the very same cult thinking 'analytic approach' when dealing with other apparently "unrelated" topics that don't look like an "obvious" cult but disguise themselves as something 'apparently' much more 'benign' & therefore carry within themselves the very same risk of falling for another 'myth/ideology/belief system/doctrine' that one thought one had left behind...

The global warming mantra is one such example - so is the "unquestioned right" to invade Iraq under the pretense of WMDs that never were there & continue the wars in the name of "freedom & democracy".

The other one is the monetary system of the United States.

[forum.culteducation.com]

Note:

There have been some individuals here that have tried to make me look like a conspiracy nutter or dare to 'suggest a diversion' of cult thinking methodology & by the very same token, continue the very 'thought processes' they truly believe & 'think' they have moved away from yet continue that very same approach without even being aware of it when proceeding to make somebody look 'off', 'different' or "whatever other adjective they might come up with when trying to 'expose' somebody as not "adhering" to 'accept' their p.o.v.s as "the word of knowledge & authority" thereby 'cult-ivating' their own unacknowledged need to be considered "above", "better than", "more aware/experienced/knowledgeable" while sorely lacking authentic & genuine life experience that no books or university campuses can teach.

Recovering from New Age Mumbo Jumbo is first of all, recovering from one's own unacknowledged programmed mumbo jumbo one has begun to believe as "truth".

It takes real grit to stand on one's own feet without anyone "applauding" you & appealing to your ego, your insecurities, your darkness & your own shadow that has been left to simmer away while one is/was being busy "fighting" the "outside 'enemy'" & completely leaving one's own shadow to its own devices having its way with you.

Denial of your own darkness is what makes recovery so difficult & so full of pitfalls.

Delusion of thinking oneself to be 'free' of it is the very trap that will make you continue in the very same fashion you have 'practiced' for years.

The mind is very good at conning you into this. It is is where most of it started, remember?

So, don't be fooled for one minute.

Staying awake is the responsibility that lies within your hands to truly walk away from the whole BS & to hopefully stay on your toes sufficiently to not jump from the hot oil into the frying pan.

You want to be free?

Well, start with yourself.

Really, it is the only way you will truly become a spiritually mature & independent adult as you strive to be.

Step by step - and don't fall for your own myth or somebody else's, lest you'll have to start all over again.

Now that would really be a waste, wouldn't it just?!?

At the end of the day it's all up to you. Take what you want from this & drop the rest.

Whereever we are, that's where we have to begin.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2008 10:57PM by xythos.

Xythos, I'm sorry that you feel under fire here. I understand that you feel personally attacked but I don't think the comments were intended as 'vitriolic'. They were not on my part.

It simply seems better to me to avoid conspiracy theories that we can't really back up with verifiable facts. It is my own personal opinion that it can sometimes add to our confusion rather than clarify things for us.

It seems that you, on the other hand, have read a great deal about these theories and of course you are entitled to your opinions. I know that I am very careful about taking on such beliefs wholesale due to previous experience within my own cultic group.

Please note, by the way that Anticult is not suggesting that people replace their 'cult thinking' with Sagan's 'Debunking Kit'. he's only suggesting it as a starting point as an aid to critical thinking.

I myself do not deny that there are systems in place and people in power who are not working for the best interest of humankind. I agree that it may indeed be true that the Jesuits as an organization have a great deal of wealth, power and influence over certain events in this country and the world - beyond that I don't yet know.

I have had times in the past when I have been very angry at the way things work in this country. I myself have experienced difficulties with the medical system for example.

Regarding your concerns that America itself is a cult, you may be interested in a couple of books by Dr. Arthur Deikman to help you research this:

Them and Us: Cult Thinking and the Terrorist Threat (Paperback)

The Wrong Way Home: Uncovering the Patterns of Cult Behavior in American Society (Hardcover)

Amazon Link

I have read the first, it was a fantastic book. I've not yet been able to obtain a copy of the second. What is helpful is to think (as the second title states) in terms of 'patterns' of cultic thinking or 'elements' of cultic thinking within the society, rather than America as a whole being a 'cult'.

This helps to avoid black and white thinking. American society is so complex, with so many races and religions, with freely-practiced beliefs and traditions that it probably can't be defined as a cult in the strictest sense as much as say, North Korea.

You are right however, that we can become aware of the patterns/elements of cultic thinking within the society and free ourselves from those as much as humanly possible.

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solea13
Xythos, I'm sorry that you feel under fire here. I understand that you feel personally attacked but I don't think the comments were intended as 'vitriolic'. They were not on my part.

Well....I'm (understandably, I'd think) very wary & on my guard after what I've been put through here. Thank you for your understanding & making a genuine effort to deflect the pressure...(little smile).

Quote

It simply seems better to me to avoid conspiracy theories that we can't really back up with verifiable facts. It is my own personal opinion that it can sometimes add to our confusion rather than clarify things for us.

True... Let me quote somebody who was instrumental in 'creating' "truth" rather than 'feed' conspiracy theories...:

If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie.
~ Dr. Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's minister of propaganda

Quote

It seems that you, on the other hand, have read a great deal about these theories and of course you are entitled to your opinions.

Unfortunately, it isn't solely based on having "read a great deal about these theories" solea 13. (Please read my account on the expansions thread).

My life experience has been such that I have seen peaceful protesters against the Iraq war being beaten to mush by the very forces that are supposed to 'protect the people', who were armed to their teeth with pepper spray, teargas, batons, moving in on & encircling these peaceful citizens on horse, on foot, on bike, on motorbike, with dogs ready to tear the unarmed sit-down protesters on the asphalt to pieces if given the "go-ahead".

The colts were visible, the energy was very, very scary & oppressive & all I can say is that I admired these brave Americans who were trying to protest the outbreak of the Iraq war knowing full well that it was built on nothing but a pretense to 'conquer' more oil in order to ensure the American way of life.

I have witnessed deliberate vandalism where the 'protesters' were just out to destroy the symbols of "market capitalism & globalism" such as McD's, Mercedes dealers, and countless other shops - in London - during the (then still) G7 summit.

So I do know the difference between peaceful protest by those attempting to exercise their 1st amendment rights & vandalism driven protest & it is not simply 'based' on having read one too many weird 'theories'.... It is based on first hand experience, having felt the fear, the darkness of the police force (& rising police state) in full light of that beautiful, sunny CA day. That just made it the more terrifying.

Remember that I have mentioned in my 'nationalised Ponzi scheme' thread that I knew back in 2003 (& after having been witness to the rising arm of the militarised police) where America was going to go - which is one of the main reasons I why left...

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I myself do not deny that there are systems in place and people in power who are not working for the best interest of humankind. I agree that it may indeed be true that the Jesuits as an organization have a great deal of wealth, power and influence over certain events in this country and the world - beyond that I don't yet know.

I am glad you are open to this... For it is the Vatican that has more power over a lot of the apparent unrelated 'systems of abuse' (particularly the scandals surrounding the church) - I cannot stress this often enough... They have their own monetary system, their own law as well as their own military SS (secret Service) - which are the Jesuits.

Alberto Rivera is one of the few who have managed to escape the Jesuit Cult & when he finally started to speak up about it, not long thereafter, he was 'terminated' by these very factions.

The City of London (more specifically, the UK in particular - which is the other place I lived for for 4 years - uninterrupted) has its own 'ceremonial' process whereby the Queen of England has to ask permission to enter that very restricted square mile - the financial power centre of Europe. Again, I have witnessed this myself - and, the City of London, too, has its own rules, legislation & law. I've lived & worked in the City of London within the financial banking system, so I would think I at least have some awareness of what the fin ancial system entails.

And yes, it was at a time, when Lehman Brothers were still strong & unassailable. Salomon Brothers, Morgan Stanley, Citibank, Goldman Sachs - I've walked through most of the corridors in these 'financial institutions' - top notch. The "crème de la crème" of financial rulership. The bankers' & stockbrokers' arrogance was legendary, as well as their moon lighting after a "hard day's work", drinking themselves beyond oblivion into a stupor & "honouring" the bypassers with their pale, lardy backsides - not! a 'pretty' sight. But part of the whole scene.

The City of London is not! "subject" to the British Commonwealth... or the United Kingdom's rule of law.

Quote

Regarding your concerns that America itself is a cult, you may be interested in a couple of books by Dr. Arthur Deikman to help you research this:

The Wrong Way Home: Uncovering the Patterns of Cult Behavior in American Society (Hardcover)

Amazing you should mention this book for I sent this very excerpt mentioned in the book off a link to someone I thought had begun to fall for their respective myth from this very website! So, as you can tell, we might after all, be on the same page...

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What is helpful is to think (as the second title states) in terms of 'patterns' of cultic thinking or 'elements' of cultic thinking within the society, rather than America as a whole being a 'cult'.

Hm...yes, I suppose for somebody who has grown up in America & whose life experience is (without meaning to come across as 'insulting' towards anyone here, just knowing the majority of the populace's "travelling experiences") 'limited' to America - as so often is the case - I would think, especially within the 'cult culture' of staying 'grounded' - meaning, not going anywhere without obvious 'approval, consent & permission' of the cult/cult leader in question, it might appear as such.

However, what has happened primarily in Europe after WWII is that a 'hero-ization of "America the saviour of the world" has led to what could truly be dubbed as America having become the 'role model' - leader, "Führer", "world police" that can do no wrong - as much by the nations that were 'saved' from the Nazi regime as well as by America itself, carefully 'grooming' this image.

The less obvious 'consequence' to this was a slowly developing independent, self-feeding dynamic of self-aggrandisement, self-inflation, sense of entitlement & self-righteousness that "the rest of the world should be thankful" for the American model of "way of life" of representing 'freedom & democracy' & the resulting pompous paradigm of "we own the world".

It is then no longer just a "conspiracy" based on having read too many strange 'off-handed' theories, it has over the years become the proverbial 'proof in the pudding' that America has 'cultivated' an inflated sense of self-importance & by so doing, has turned itself into a 'cult' of sorts on the intl' stage of politics, economics, 'human rights', etc, all the while breaking them without thinking twice when it comes to their own national interests.

Europeans by & large are better educated & more knowledgeable about America than a lot of citizens residing there... It was painful to watch Jay Leno 'interviewing' the American voters prior to the 'election'.... The ignorance was rampant & enough to make anyone cringe... And this nation then thinks it has voted 'in full knowledge' of their political system.... That's as far as it goes. They do not know all too much about other nations' political systems, nor do they really understand because the linguistic barrier prevents them from being able to fully participate in the culture & how it works from within. In Europe it is more common knowledge than in the US that Grampa Bush was a major financier of Hitler...and it is not 'considered' a conspiracy. Just an awareness of the political factions operating behind the curtain...

One of the most telling remarks I've heard on Thursday on French TV with regards to the Raelians' growing grip on Canada was that:

"Americans are regressing emotionally but because Europe has always dragged about 10 years behind the American 'wave/movements', this is creating a kind of double loop on the European continent & the sects' expanding grip on France".

If you read French, here's the synopsis (link is here [programmes.france2.fr])

QUOTE

Ces gourous qui nous manipulent

Manipulés, isolés, escroqués...

En France, plusieurs centaines de milliers de personnes seraient sous l’emprise de groupes sectaires. Ces multiples organisations promettent toujours la même chose: le bonheur absolu, un épanouissement de tous les instants, de nouveaux pouvoirs, une harmonie totale...

En somme, une nouvelle vie. Derrière ces promesses se cachent souvent de bien douloureuses méthodes: Escroquerie, déstabilisation mentale, traitement douteux, abus de confiance... Autant de dérives sectaires qui, aujourd’hui, toucheraient de plein fouet plusieurs milieux dont le monde paramédical. Leur cible principale : les enfants. Plus troublant encore : ces thérapeutes qui inventent de faux traumatismes soit disant vécus dans l’enfance. Des psychothérapies sauvages aux conséquences souvent désastreuses. Il s’agit là du "syndrome des faux souvenirs induits", un nouveau phénomène qui touche de nombreux pays. Pour mener l’enquête, l’une de nos journalistes s’est infiltrée au sein de plusieurs mouvements à caractère sectaire. Pendant plusieurs mois, elle a évolué dans ces milieux clos, là où les caméras sont rarement les bienvenues.

UNQUOTE

Again this should not be taken as an insult (though hard it might be to believe) but Americans have never really been known to travel much anywhere other than from maybe one state to another...from the South to the West or the West to the East Coast. Distances all right but still 'only' one "country".

I lived in the MLK's hometown for a good nine months. I've been to the holiest of 'representative bodies' of your nation: the Capitol.

People mix up the focus of power with the WH, but it is really the Capitol where the fate of the nation is being decided. As well as the Supreme Court.

I have stood at JFK's gravestone in Arlington, VA & I have seen the wall for the Vietnam vet's. And, most notably, I've been to the WTC before it was subject to a controlled demolition.

This is one of the biggest difference maybe, with myself & those trying to rattle my opinions here. They have no foreign country experience worth mentioning. And, it takes at least 2 years to really begin to understand how a country works (I've spent three consecutive years the 2nd time I lived in America & a good 20 months the first time around).

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This helps to avoid black and white thinking. American society is so complex, with so many races and religions, with freely-practiced beliefs and traditions that it probably can't be defined as a cult in the strictest sense as much as say, North Korea.

I was not born in North Korea. I was born south of the Demarcation Zone.... I don't have "black & white thinking" & I know American society is very complex (& it is also still a very divided country in spite of the proclamations to the opposite....

I'd 'invite' the suggestion for you to live for a good few years in another country (& not an English speaking country & no, not Mexico because it is much too influenced by its big neighbour) & then re-assess your own view of America as a nation.

I myself have spent 8 years in total abroad (out of my adoptive country), so most of what I say here is backed up with lived experience, not 'read' theoretical knowledge...

One only truly begins to 'see' what one's own country is when one has lived sufficiently long enough abroad from whence one grew up to really begin to 'appreciate' the different view the world has of one's homeland.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2008 06:26AM by xythos.

Hi Xythos.

I take your point and understand that your observations are from life experience and not just from reading conspiracy theories.

Just to clarify - I'm not American. I don't want to get into details for the sake of privacy, but I was not born or raised here. I imagine that there are many people of different nationalities posting on this board, don't you think? I do speak a little French from time spent living in that country also.

My comment about 'black and white thinking' was not directed towards you personally, I meant it generally. I think we can all succumb to 'black and white thinking' from time to time. I know I have in the past and I do try to guard against it.

I didn't assume you were born in N. Korea, sorry if it appeared that way. I was using N. Korea as an example of a more totalitarian state than the US. Perhaps you would prefer me to say more 'obviously' totalitarian than the US ... ?

I'm glad that you had already discovered Arthur Deikman's work. I think it's good that you started some new threads in which to discuss the topics that are of interest to you.

'Recovering from New Age Mumbo Jumbo' seems to mean different things to different people. Some of the people in my group believed that they had been 'liberated' from the cult of American society. Those people had no problem in ignoring and breaking normal social mores. For example:

-They would happily lie to people on the 'outside' because those individuals were considered to be 'asleep' and that they were being deceived for their own benefit.
-They had no problem stealing money to pay for 'higher level' classes.
- They would cut themselves off from their families because family members were 'asleep' and 'unspiritual'.
- In general if an individual got sick it was because of something they had done karmically to bring it upon themselves.

So those are just a few examples of the kind of New Age Mumbo Jumbo that I am in the process of recovering from.

yes, something like the Carl Sagan Baloney Detection Kit, is just a starting point.
Its along the lines of the level of critical thinking needed to buy a used car...you carefully have an expert mechanic check out the car...its about facts.

Its simply a way of asking questions and gathering factual evidence.
Its about using the scientific method.
Its about Epistemology.

Frankly, if we don't use methods along those lines, we are literally back in the dark ages.
In philosophy, its called Sky-Hooks, where ideas are just hanging out there, with no foundation.
Once you fall into that trap, a person can spend decades lost.

But for example, something like the Carl Sagan book, The Demon Haunted World could help a person get out of that nightmare.

That seems to be the best way to recover from the new age mumbo jumbo.
You can take any idea and run it through the Baloney Kit, and see if it holds up. Its fun.
[users.tpg.com.au]

Most New Age concepts will simply crumble in just a few minutes of proper analysis.

The Anticult, thanks for bringing the thread BACK to New Age mumbo jumbo. I feared this thread was hijacked by conspiracy-theorists, who, quite frankly, bore me.

I agree that The Late, Great Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World is a great tome of critical thinking. I have applied it as I do Occum's Razor to cut through crap spewed on all topics in record time.

While "New Age" covers a VAST area of peculiar thought and beliefs, this forum provides a great service to those lost people out there who stumble upon it through an internet search...a Beacon in the dark, if you will.

I have dealt with relatives who actually worked for The Warrens (the demonologists who investigated The Amityville Horror). Ed Warren is dead, now as you may of may not know. My relatives actually started their own "ghost busting" "service". They are true believers and not scam artists (at least I don't think they are...they seem too stupid to be able to con anyone). They are also lost in the sense of critical thinking.

We can't save everyone that has lost their way out there, but our stories and shared posts can pop up in internet searches world-wide to help those confused and scared to step back into the light of reason and support.

yes, the New Age mumbo jumbo is literally as infinite as the human imagination.

and then, one has to sort out valuable mythology and things of that nature, from sheer nonsense, and even deliberate lies, and even mental illness in some cases.
No wonder people get lost in that morass for life.

But there is a way to sort the wheat from the chaff, and that is using the methods of critical intelligence.
for anyone who comes across this, have a look at SkepDic, The Skeptic's Dictionary
[skepdic.com]

Its not about "believing" SkepDic, or any other website. but there are amazing resources there.

but falling into the New Age trap is 1000x easier than getting out of it.
we have to develop a strong Bullshit Detector.

Good point, Sparky. It was actually an internet search that finally brought me here. I've found it to be a great help in the recovering process I am now engrossed in. I am very thankful for all of you folks who are taking the time to help with the experience and links. Please do keep it up!

qd

p.s. I had to edit this 3 or 4 times before posting, just to delete the 'speak' that we are referring to. I feel it's worth the effort.