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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: moveforward ()
Date: November 10, 2011 10:28AM

lama ole
i find it hard to understand your angst here.hes a out there ,westen lama in camoflage clothing.what you see is what you get.thats the beauty of buddhas message,it flows and incorporates itself into the cullture as the practitioner see fit.
hindus added buddist practise,china,japan ,tibet did,thailand,sri lanka.buddha adapts.and if you cannot find a path amonsgt all this displays,then start your own...
i will side with sogyal rinpoche,as i also attended his retreats in the early late80s-90s,before and after his book came out.
he was well know as the laughing lama, before his book came out,and the students were at that time only a small group of people
once the book came out i very much missed his laughing lama tag,he became more serious,gone were the jokes and easy banter,it became serious study.and his following multiplied.
yes he pushed those he knew for many years to get out of there comfort zone,in front of those present.so what,no asks you to be in the inner circle of a lamas tour,you simply get yourself involved .and hes not in monks robes,so what if he gropes you,just say no !!!
how many times have i heard sogyal say that my students are either in therapy- or are therapists ...does,nt he know it,,,peoploe seeking free therapy all lining up to see this unique man.
thomaskent- lama samten - you say you know he was abusing women,now lama samten has many whacko people front up and pour out there life storys angsts,lack of loving,inability to find a partner,blah blah ect,i would like to read what you know of lama samtens misdeeds,as the lamas in poor shape health wise,and this allegation ,well its a shock,and again so easy for some scorned person to allege wrong doing.
i wonder if men and women at gatherings simply said hello to each other,then the lama would,nt be pestered by dotting,fawning females followers so much.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: SteveLpool ()
Date: November 10, 2011 07:35PM

If guru's or teachers had this supernatural ability to transfer a thought from their mind to anothers by mind transference alone why have there been no successful controlled experiments where this is proved beyond doubt? The reason there is no proof is because they can't do it. If they could do it they could transfer the contents of their mind into yours and you would be as enlightened or liberated as they claim to be. But they can't.

I just need to see a controlled experiment where two alleged liberated or enlightened masters transfer a series of thoughts between each other. These thoughts, be they in the form of pictures or phrases, should be unfamiliar to both subjects before the experiment begins so there is no possibility of the other guessing.

Ole Nydahl can't see into your mind. Ole Nydahl can't communicate by thought transference. If he claims he can then he should submit to rigorous, controlled experiments so the rest of us mere mortals can marvel at his powers.

Steve

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: pS1bY8pG2l ()
Date: November 10, 2011 08:32PM

Steve,

your skepticism is very honest and yes, until yet we do not have any resaerches based on "hard facts" after this phenomena. The only one I know is, that Ole Nydahl does some examination of his brain from time to time, in a special project. And believe me, he would not be in this project if there was nothing unusual.

The researching of those phenomena is thus difficult, because there a "volatile", you cannot reproduce them in a scientific setting. I am very interested in reflections of my own experiences and I read about what I had found, and most interesting are researches in the aerea of psychic research and research of altered states of awereness.

Nothing but to compare notes I like to do on this forum. But please, do not dictate what I have to think. Even you have not get the leading opinion.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: Sile ()
Date: November 10, 2011 11:11PM

Karam-Mudra, have you reported your abuse to the authorities?

If you are serious about preventing others from experiencing abuse, you should at the very least make it an issue with the police department where this happened, even if you don't feel like going through a court case.

On what date did you experience this abuse by the Karmapa, and in what city/town/country? If you are afraid to report it yourself, provide the details here and then someone else can report it for you.

If people only talk about abuse on internet forums, without taking real-world steps to address it, it unfortunately reduces the likelihood that your account will be believed.

So please, for the sake of other women, give details either to others you trust, or better, directly to the police.

I assume every human being is innocent until proven guilty; if there are truly guilty people out there, and we do nothing, we are part of the problem as well.

And always remember - there are hundreds of phenomenal, kind, decent teachers in the world. If you don't trust the one you have been studying with, move on! The choice is ours.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: November 10, 2011 11:22PM

A western concept that may apply here is implanting introjected material from a troubled preceptor's psyche into a student.

In Western psychotherapy it is well understood that a therapist must avoid transferring his or her inner life into the interior of a client or counselee--the risks are much too great and no benefit is seen in it.

[forum.culteducation.com]

To imagine that one can transfer Buddha nature or merit from the interior of a guru into a student, is high risk.

And Buddha never taught that anyway.

We are told we are to practice in and through 'this very body and in this very life'.

Some state that takes us out of our bodies or estranges us from our bodies may seem amazing and profound, but is misleading--it resembles an intoxication, and Buddha warned of this whether through drugs or trance.

By contrast older shamanic practices did emphasise vision quests, journeys through zones, and this tantra stuff sounds like pre Buddhist shamanism, tarted up with Buddhist trappings, done for the benefit of powerful men, using women.

To make sense of this, I would advise doing some outside reading on shamanic practices, and select material written by reliable anthropologists.

Wendy Doniger in her book, The Hindus:an Alternate History has a chapter on tantra. Her question to use in evaluating any tantric path is, 'What is in it for the woman?'

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: November 10, 2011 11:30PM

Here is another--this was written in response to persons who reported having nightmares following participation in a Large Group Awareness Training called Landmark Education.

[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote

One author has a most interesting personal definition of charisma. He is describing how he witnessed people responding to Nazi propaganda gatherings. He was in Vienna, and on Hitler's birthday, an immense portrait of the Fuhrer was set up in a large public square, surrounded by many burning candles, exactly the way shrines had been set up for Catholic saints in that same place for centuries.

The author witnessed an old woman turning aside after viewing the Hitler portrait and without realizing what she was doing, she had crossed herself--and then had a look of horror on her face. Hitler's image had been incorporated into her life long body practice of devotion to God and Mary and the saints. Remembering this episode, Bharati wrote:

Quote

'I am using the term 'charisma' here in a special sense to denote that numinous personality change deliberately infused into the victim'.

This was written about 30 years ago by Leonard Fischer/Agehananda Bharti in his Memoir, The Ochre Robe.

He lived through the Nazi occupation of Europe and was horrified by the effects on people.

What is yet more interesting is that decades after Bharati wrote this in The Ochre Robe, a psychoanalyst named Stanley Rosenman seems to have identified a similar process and describes it in detail.

Stanley Rosenman has written about how identity and even emotions are interfered with when someone else inserts alien introject into targeted persons. Rosenman examined this only in the context of traumatic assault, such as rape or prolonged torture.

He didnt consider that this could be done by seduction, persuasion, by presenting oneself as a guru and securing peoples attention by promsing priviliged access to the ancient heritage of India.

But we are free to ponder this. Rosenman has suggested that a self impaired perpetrator may seek immortality by injected shards of his or her introject into others.

This article is worth reading. Therapists can get it through subscription to PEP. Others may have to look for it at a psychoanlytic institute library. But I think Rosenman manages to describe the same process alluded to by Bharati,
2003). Journal of American Academy of Psychoanalysis, 31:521-540

Assaultive Projective Identification and the Plundering of the Victim's Identity

Stanley Rosenman

(Abstract)

A destructive mode of projective identification is delineated: a predator's catastrophic attack calculated to cause the victim a stress disorder marked by a disarrayed identity. This discomposure enables the perpetrator to aggrandize a manifold inroad upon the victim's identity to imprint, intrude, mingle and/or lodge his representation into it; to ravage, steal from, impoverish, and/or corrupt it; finally to have his representation emerge as an internal regulator of the traumatized prey's functioning..."

Corboy's laymans commentary:

If someone is able to infuse an alien introject into the deeper layers of our inner landscape, layers deeper than the level of adult conscious awareness, and if this alien and parasitic introject usurps our true selves and begins disrupting and interfering with the flow of our emotions and perceptions, this is grave interferance with our inner life.

It is like having one's garden overrun by crabgrass.

But..if we can identify this process consciously and reclaim ourselves, we may well get a spiritual life truly our own, not through an LGAT or a guru like Muktananda or Gurumayi but by finding our inner cores and regaining custody from intrusive thieves who feel so dead inside that they need to get a sense of agency and immortality by injecting shards of their unhappy inner selves into thousands of followers.

And do this not by respecting us and by engaging in open dialogue or courtship, but by covert means and hidden 'tech'.

You'd be plenty annoyed if someone hacked into your computer and messed with its programming.

At least if the hacker left a message saying, 'Hey I was bored, I snuck into your computer and did thus and such'--youd be plenty angry but would at least have useful
information to give to your IT person when getting your stuff repaired.

But if someone were to sneak in and hack your system and do it in such a way as to disrupt it, but conceal the exact methods used and cause your system to work for other people and not for you, cut checks for other people but not put anything in your account, send arrogant e-mails that annoy the hell out of the people who love and care about you...

That would be upsetting as hell.

Now imagine its your own brain...

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: November 10, 2011 11:37PM

One way people try to thwart discussion is to demand to know whether we have reported it to the police or the authorities.

We are doing plenty to discuss matters here.

This particular website indeed is doing something by offering a venue for discussion where people can avoid being bullied or shamed.

Because several serious lawsuits were filed to destroy this website. Had we not been 'doing something' those lawsuits would not have been filed.

And Mr Ross's website is here after 9 years because many excellent attorneys and their law firms donated their services--and those services were worth millions.

So...just having this conversation here is 'doing something'. Journalists can come here and read up.

Future lawsuits can be crafted if need be.

And if searchable material is found online that can be used by new seekers to pick and choose which Dharma centers they prefer to go to. If donated money has been used to pay settlements that were reported in the news services, a seeker may decide to give such a center a pass.

One Buddhist teacher told me that their center has financial struggles because they have to pay health insurance.

I would much rather my money go for that purpose.

Two, people who think they are the only ones who have noticed something weird can ask a question online or run a search and find out they were not the only ones targeted and that the guru is the one with the problems.



To suggest we are doing nothing by talking here is an attempt to deflect.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: November 11, 2011 01:10AM

Quote

Violations of trust are not healed by those who are on the receiving end of the violations. In the sense of transformative, or healing justice it is those who have committed the harmful actions who, by realizing the harm done, instigate dialogue and attempt amends with the help of the community
.

Discussions both here and on Dialogue Ireland concerning DW exist because the attempts to heal DW from within and attempts to engage Ole directly were attempted and rebuffed. If one reads through both threads one will see this is so.

Note: It has been said that one should spend years studying a prospective guru's behavior before taking precepts.

This seemingly excellent advice has flaws.

* One has to be part of a sangha for all of those years to be in any position to examine a guru for all those years. During that time, you are giving much attention and effort, both to your practice and to support the sangha. You will eventually be asked to stop sitting in a corner with binoculars and start helping out.

All those years spent will socialize you without your realizing it. Both Stanley Milgram and Philip Zimbardo did experiments demonstrating how quickly human behavior could deteriorate into actual cruelty if orders were given by authority figures. And their experiments were either just one day (Milgram) or several days (Zimbardo)

The Tibetans and other easterners as well as Ken Wilber all cling to the fantasy that one can become so enlightened that one is immune to temptation. In what I call the Stanford Cookie experiment, a social psychologist radomly assigned people to the leadership role in a group. During the experiment a plate of cookies was passed in.

Those randomly assigned to the leadership role were statistically more likely to take more than their share of cookies, to take without asking permission, were more likely to chew with mouths open and to leave crumbs.

[www.google.com]

This happened to randomly assigned people in leadership roles and in just a couple of hours.

This is how quickly just 'an hour of power' can corrupt. Imagine someone being put on a throne from childhood, denied normal social relations, told one is superior. The temptations have to be worse.

Other flaws in the study your guru for years before allowing oneself to enter a bond in which one will have the guru's image implanted into one's own interior through potent trance practices:

All you are likely to see is the public image of the guru. That person may well behave quite differently in private.

Two, a guru may be surrounded by a very well selected and trained group of enablers and secret keepers who will make certain that only a sterling public image is presented. Newcomers or skeptics will be kept far away.

Many gurus speak their private plans in a foreign language. You would have to learn that language and it would take years of commitment to do that. By then, your objectivity may be gone.

The guru may spend so very much time travelling that you cannot see much of the person at all, unless you work your way up for years to become a member of his or her private entourage. And you will not be selected for that job unless you are likely to be a good secret keeper.

Many gurus live in foreign countries much of the time. You'd have to go there yourself and that means time and money. How many have such resources?

So....the advice given to examine the public and private character of your teacher for years--that is disingenuous advice. Very few persons could follow it unless they spend years of study and practice and work their way into inner circle jobs--by which their objectivity is gone and they have become socialized to accept as normal what they would not have accepted as normal, years before.

Some common sense from a person who has lived in India and studied Buddhism via the Karmapa's traditions and also the Pali texts.

Further the author of enlightenward blog asked this in relation to a dispute at Tricycle magacine. The points made are just as relevant to this and other discussions concering abusive behavior by Tibetan guru powerholderss
[enlightenmentward.wordpress.com]
Quote

Quote:
Let me take up Genkaku Adam Fisher’s point and his echo of the Buddha’s words,
It is not what others do and do not do that is my concern. It is what I do and do not do — that is my concern.

This has been cited to me in one form or another on this and other issues. It is very nice and comfortable to tend one’s own garden while watching others’ go to ruin. Or is it? And further is it even possible for someone on the Buddhist path?

What I do…” is always in relation to a larger whole. While I do agree with Genkaku Adam Fisher it is only insofar as it’s not used as an excuse to cop out and relinquish one’s self to fear. Actions have a context. They have a cause.

In concerning myself with “What I do…” I am also concerned with that which is the impetus of what I do as well as the possible results of what I do. Nothing happens in isolation.

Often we see exhortations, even from a few Buddhist teachers to remain silent, be above the fray, to back off.

This transcendental egotism, as I called it in a previous post is absolutely unrealistic. To attempt to limit one’s actions to a singular sphere wherein context is irrelevant is highly deluded if not psycho-pathological.

What more can be done?

Violations of trust are not healed by those who are on the receiving end of the violations. In the sense of transformative, or healing justice it is those who have committed the harmful actions who, by realizing the harm done, instigate dialogue and attempt amends with the help of the community. It involves all of us including those responsible for the article (or bad behavior), those directly affected by the article, those of us with knowledge of the situation, those of us who feel some sense of offense and the larger readership of the magazine since their perceptions, either way have also been affected by this.

I can keep explaining and explaining but that’s just like some cry in the wilderness. By reacting, I and others of the community have actually initiated dialogue. Just not the dialogue Tricycle Magazine(or in this case Ole N and Diamond Way—Corboy) and it’s representatives want to hear right now.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: SteveLpool ()
Date: November 11, 2011 01:41AM

Hi Karam-Mudra.

I don't intend to imply I know 'the truth' or that my version of things is definitive. What I do ask for is indisputable proof of someones claims of supernatural events or powers.

This leads me to ask why are these phenomina "volitile" and cannot be reproduced in a controlled environment?

I am aware of Ole being wired up an producing epilepsy like EGC's but have been unable to find any published papers which explain this phenomena. Can you point me to where this research with Ole is documented?

Thanks

Steve

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: pS1bY8pG2l ()
Date: November 11, 2011 03:42AM

Hi Steve,

it`s ok.

Why are the phenomena volatile? I wished to have a satisfactory reply and it is hard for me to explain those topics in English.
Do you know something about the theory of "fuzziness", devised by Heisenberg? Short cut: You observe an atomic particle and you don`t know, wether it will be appearing as a particle or as energy. My idea is, that phenomena of a changed state of awareness have the same fuzziness.

In Germany we have some research about medial phenomena at the University of Freiburg as well as researches about so called miracles. It is very interesting, but I did not read the results until yet.

I don`t know, where Nydahls evidences are documented, but if he really has this result it means that the area behind the right ear is always stimulated, the aerea where our ability is located to experience exceptional phenomena and to practise uncommon abilities in a broad sense.
Here we are! Yes, yes, the tantric masters.
Annother result of brainresearch with enlightened people is the permanent stimulation of the so called "remuneration system". The same was found in researches with psychopaths. Following my own experiences we loose our empathy in this state.
Have a look at the face of a Living Buddha, Shen-Lun, who misabuses a woman, and you will undersrand, what I mean:

[tantrismuskritik.blogspot.com]

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