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SteveLpool
If you think there is only one Karmapa then there is less chance for this question to trouble a student. That's why they don't like students talking about it.

it´s interesting to see, that not even u, someone, who claims here since months to have dropped diamondway, seems to be able to see the madness and consequences of this ideas.

the student is bound to find out about this kontroverse sooner or later.

and then he is not allowed to talk about it...

what is the result of this ?

what kind of students they can "keep" on long terms that way and what kind of students they will loose sooner or later that way ?

maybe it´s not "madness", maybe they are very aware of whom they attract with this.

cause for a "cult" "students", who are able to follow blindly, are very valuable...

just look at thousands of ppl listeneing to oles rage against islam, all of them well trained in giving up their own thoughts.

very valuable...

but for whom and for what intentions ?

thanks for opening my eyes about something.

it´s not something I`d link to ole alone.

it´s something I can see right now in most cults and also very strongly in the stuff I´m more connected with than with vajrayana :

neo advaita

this march there was a suicide of a teacher in the scene, an indian lady living in tiruvannamalay in india called radha ma died after self-immolation.

it seems impossible to find ppl, who seem able to talk about it, and I also heard teachers officially ban discussions amongst their students about it.

maybe this tendencies are even worse in the neo advaita scene than in vajrayana, I have to look more into this, thanks for opening my eyes by defending this stuff.

cause one thing u should never forget : u can leave a cult easily, but to see and to remove the things u took over from the cult and regard as ur own thinking is a something very difficult, cause no matter how much we feel superior to and beyond it, u get programmed and u somehow need some reprogramming before u can truely say : "I left this cult."

Hi oamoam.

“it seems impossible to find ppl, who seem able to talk about it, and I also heard teachers officially ban discussions amongst their students about it. maybe this tendencies are even worse in the neo advaita scene than in vajrayana, I have to look more into this, thanks for opening my eyes by defending this stuff.”

If you ‘carefully’ read my post (and previous posts) then you will see that I’m not defending DWB or the teachers who will not openly allow the discussion to take place.

I’m suggesting that the reason they won’t let the discussion take place is because many students would have a crisis of confidence in Ole and DWB and probably leave.

Of course they want to just have students who agree with Ole’s world view. This is why he makes ‘politically incorrect’ statements at his lectures. It’s so he can get rid of the students who don’t agree with him right at the start. Then those who stay probably have the same views. I say probably because I stayed for 7-8 years and never agreed with Ole’s views on Islam, black Africans.

"cause one thing u should never forget : u can leave a cult easily, but to see and to remove the things u took over from the cult and regard as ur own thinking is a something very difficult, cause no matter how much we feel superior to and beyond it, u get programmed and u somehow need some reprogramming before u can truely say : "I left this cult.""

I don't need to be re-programmed. I didn't accept their programming in the first place. It's why they asked me to leave.

If you want to discuss the Karmapa issue I’m happy to discuss it with you.

Steve

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SteveLpool
I don't need to be re-programmed. I didn't accept their programming in the first place.

I don´t think that this is a diamondway thing u r into, I can see exactly this attitude in all vajrayana schools and also in most things that get called cults : u seem to believe, that it´s useful to keep such things away from students.

it´s not my business at all and if u will ever care about it, it will be urs alone to deal with this questions : is that really what u think or is that something u just got used to over the years and isn´t this "getting used to" exactly what is meant by "getting programmed" ?

just look at ppl, who have been involved with other things, look for example at an ex-osho-disciple, who thinks he has dropped this stuff.

look at ex-hare-krishnas, look at ex-sientology guys, look at ex-jehovah's witnesses.

look at ex-cult-members, who have been in cults, that are very far from anything attractive to u and u will find so many weird attitudes and absurd beliefs in this persons, things they got used to and regard as their own, but they aren´t, they r exactly what is called programming and nearly all this ppl believe they are completly out of it and got not really "programmed"...

it´s very easy and obvious to see such things at others, especially when they have been involved in weird things u have not much clue about or feel repelled from anyway, but it´s extremly difficult to see such things in ur own stuff and beliefs.

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SteveLpool
If you want to discuss the Karmapa issue I’m happy to discuss it with you.

I have no real opinion about this things exept that they made me more or less stay away generally in a kind of disgust from anything tibetan.

well, I have no problems to listen to a good darma talk from time to time from them, but that´s it, I don´t think I could ever get more involved than that with them ever again.

I posted a longer answer some hours ago and it doesn´t show up.

I don´t know why, but my posts so far showed up with a few minutes delay, I don´t know why and I don´t know, if my last post got lost, deleted or has just a longer delay than the post before, but I try now to write it again.

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This is why he makes ‘politically incorrect’ statements at his lectures. It’s so he can get rid of the students who don’t agree with him right at the start.

is it really u, who thinks this ?

someone "who didn´t accept their programming" ?

repeating word by word official diamondway statements about this issue ?

I see it like that :

that way they don´t get students, who really agree with such stuff, they get students, who r attracted by not having to think for themselfs anymore and who r able to shut up in case they still think for themselfs or don´t agree.

if I would teach, this would be the last kind of ppl I would want as students, but each to his own.

I cannot agree with any statement, that only the ppl r staying, who agree, I´ve seen often enough how he freaks and puts ppl very down, when they question this stuff about islam, and there was never ever much silent agreement to feel from the crowd, mostly they seem to feel a bit embarressed in my eyes and have clearly learned well how to shit up and ignore this a bit ugly way.

as they also have all learned well from the crowd to ignore the karmapa issue.

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I don't need to be re-programmed. I didn't accept their programming in the first place.

try this :

look at other ex-cult-members, for example ex-osho-ppl, ex-sientology, ex-hare-krishna, ex-jehovas-witnesses, whatever, choose something very very unattractive or weird in ur eyes, something very far from ur own stuff.

look at someone, who claims not to have gotten programmed, someone who believes, that he is really out of his former cult now.

look at all the weird attitudes and absurd believes this person still carries with him, it´s a real freakshow usually.

there r so many things we just get used to over long times and over time start to believe that they r ours or real or true.

there is no need to get consciously "programmed" by anyone, it´s enough to be in contact with such things over a longer time.

this slowly getting used to such things is exactly what is called "programming".

it´s so damn easy to see this so clearly at others and so very very difficult to see and understand it when it comes to ones own stuff.

this looking at and understanding ur own stuff is the only way of "deprogramming", others can tell u thousands of things, as long as there is no real interest in looking honestly at urself, u will forever stay in this somehow really strange state of believing to be "out" but actually still being completly "in".

when I look at u still quoting even word by word the weirdest official diamondway stuff, man, either u r a weird official acting here for whatever reasons or u really need to wake up a bit more and start to look at urself a bit.

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If you want to discuss the Karmapa issue I’m happy to discuss it with you.

I have no need for this anymore, for me that´s just a bit sad memory of something I can neither understand nor accept nor deal with in any way and it´s something, that very probably spoilt any interest in any closer contact with tibetans and vajrayana forever.

Hi oamoam.

I understand that English isn't your first language which is probably why you are misunderstanding my posts. But I'll just clear it up before I close this discussion with you:

I don't believe it is useful to hide the Karmapa controversy from students. I've read my posts several times and it clearly states this.

"when I look at u still quoting even word by word the weirdest official diamondway stuff, man, either u r a weird official acting here for whatever reasons or u really need to wake up a bit more and start to look at urself a bit."

I'm always open to the possibility that I'm weird.

I promise to set my alarm to wake me an hour earlier each day to do a little more self reflection.

Steve

'either u r a weird official acting here for whatever reasons or u really need to wake up a bit more and start to look at urself a bit.'

SteveLpool very correctly identifies Nydahls use of 'politically incorrect' views to sift out those who will not eventually take on, in its entirety, the worldview that Nydahl is presenting.
It is what Anti-cult has labelled a 'sucker test', it is the first step of a crude sorting process, part of the ongoing filtering process by which members identify themselves as more or less willing believers in Nydahls murky worldview.

There are others, more sucker tests, of increasing complexity as time goes on. The fact that someone might be willingly to suspend some disbelief at the beginning, in the interests of learning more, but retains a critical and independent faculty for assessing the whole, does not necessarily indicate a person who has been programmed.

Black and white thinking there, oamoam, absolute conclusions have a tendency to distort and confuse.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2011 06:16PM by Stoic.

hello
I am lost a bit here, who was hiding karmapa controversy ?
not in my time in DW, as I remember it was said we are on right side and they are on wrong one. and that what I accepted. I met Karmapa (Thaey Dorje)few times, never met Ogyan Trinley but don't really need to at the moment there is full trust in me that Thaey Dorje is Karmapa . however I refuse to condem people who , for one or other reason chose Other Karmapa.
I thing it is widely known by now that DW is a cult of Lama Ole . Ole got it wrong by thinking that he is liberated from disturbing emotions, he definitely got cought in the filling of power , that he can do everything and " the world is turning around him " .
Other thing I would like to ask SteveL , I know it is a bit of topic, if you do not thing there is such a thing as reincarnation , does it mean there is no karma in your opinion?

I have to say that if someone has been involved in a cult and by some means managed to get out it takes time to readjust and take positives from the experience , for sure.


all these stories about Tibetan Lamas get cought in their misgivings in western world is just the sign that they forgot the teachings they teach them selves.
Many of them spent their lives in God like positions and it got in to their heads that they are Gods, I guess .
Besides , Shakyamuni Buddha gave his teachings in three parts and I can bet with anyone that they are as useful and
meaningful as other. Ole teaches Vajrayana because it kind of cool " you can get enlightened in one live time" but then he forgets that we are western born or educated people and all fast transformation might not be very helthy for us .Tibetan and Indian cultures always had esoteric approach to the world.
That what I thing from experience and please express your opinions if I am not correct.
I understood one thing ,that it is possible to have a cult within ones lineage ,because lineages are not like catolic churches , one lama can say that he is from this and that lineage but it does not have to be strong conection.

Hi dariusb.

Well, you ask me a very good question regarding karma. :o)

As far as I can tell karma is an undeniable truth. Every effect has a cause and that the resulting effect is the cause for another effect and so on. I examined this for a long, long time and have yet to find a situation where the law doesn't apply.

So I am happy to accept, for the time being, that karma appears to be an undeniable, infallible law.

I'm no scientist but my understanding of the work in Cerne is as follows: in the Hadron Collider they smash atomic particles into each other. The impact causes new (different) particles to appear, not the same ones winking out of existence and back again. Some of these particles wink out of existence and are never seen again.

Now, I don't understand the significance of this. (I'll say that again in case someone misunderstands me.) I do not know what the above statement (if I understand the results of the work at Cerne) proves.

But until I'm sure, with 100% certainty then I just can't accept reincarnation as 100% true.

The law of karma would suggest it is true.

As for finding the reincarnation of a dead person ... it just seems 'a little convenient'.

I met Thaye Dorje. I have confidence he knows more about the nature of mind than I do. I haven't met Ogyan Thinley but I have confidence he also knows more about the nature of mind than I do. So I'm happy to listen to teachings from them both.

Let's not forget that some reincarnates were born before their 'former selves' died. I think Kalu Rinpoche's current incarnation is one such case. In such a situation it appears that the rebirth can't be attributed to the cause of someone dying.

This is why I reserve the right to be sceptical about the 'true' Karmapa.

It's a complicated answer. But it was a very good question.

Steve

Hi dariusb.

I forgot to add in my last post.

Yes you are right, the Karmapa controversy wasn't covered up in the centre I went to. It was never a topic for conversation, but it was never hidden from students.

I once mentioned that I'd decided to read Mick Brown's book, which the Sangha heads just dismissed as a pack of lies. But this is obviously what they would say. I wanted to discuss some of the 'facts' so that I could be better informed as to which book was a pack of lies, Mick Brown's, "Buddha's Not Smiling" or "Rogues in Robes".

I was, kind of, shouted down by the chief of the centre in front of everybody else so I never mentioned it to the group again.

Steve

buddha's not smiling [www.google.com]
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rogues in robes [www.google.com]