Quote
SteveLpool

But I found that the longer I studied a detail I discovered flaws or inconsistencies which brought me to the conclusion that my first analysis was coloured by my initial enthusiasm which, in turn, distorted my ability to think critically.

For me there was far too much belief and trust taking place within the students towards the teachers and not enough critical thinking. It was my refusal to suspend my disbelief that eventually led them to tell me to take my practice somewhere else.
Steve

Hi, Gang, I'm new to this discussion. I have no past or present association with DWB; I'm participating on RR after doing a lot of research about abuses in Tibetan Buddhism of various sorts. One thing that became clear early on is precisely this tendency of students to place total trust in the teachers that SteveLpool mentions. I'm like Steve; I always observed the teachers--they have to earn my trust, they don't get it automatically--and I never saw or met one that practiced what he preached. Never saw any compassion or loving-kindness. Plus, more often than not I'd have to quit due to unwanted inappropriate attention from the lamas. But isn't it strange that it's Steve's refusal to suspend disbelief that got him on the outs with the sangha? The Dalai Lama and other authorities on the Tibetan side say you should spend years checking out your teacher before handing over your trust. So if sangha members disapprove of the recommended strategy, that's a big red flag right there, IMO.

One thing that got my attention in this discussion is mention of Shamar Rinpoche. I found his statements about Nydahl and the introduction of tantric sex to the West, which happened at Nydahl's invitation to Kalu Rinpoche and the 16th Karmapa, he says, and also his statements about his new Bodhi Path Centers, to be quite interesting. Shamar says that tantric sex was "very popular" in the West, but he feels it was misused, stripped of the spiritual component, by Westerners. (Funny, neither I, nor anyone I've known, including sanghas full of practitioners, had ever heard of it until scandal stories began to surface on the internet.) A bit oddly, he says nothing about abuses by Eastern teachers.

But he has decided that current conditions in the world are not conducive to teaching Vajrayana, and so he has set up these Bodhi Path Centers where no Vajrayana will be taught, except for the occasional Chenrezig or Medicine Buddha empowerment, harmless stuff. This intrigues me tremendously. Shamar is the only figure in Tibetan Buddhism who seems to be taking some responsibility for the problems caused by misuse or misinterpretation of the tradition. I have to respect that, even if he does so for the wrong reasons. At least somebody is trying to do something positive, and admits there have been problems in the past. I think the only way to rescue Tibetan Buddhism's tarnished image (if it's rescue-able) is precisely by the means Shamar has taken: opening centers where there's a strict "hands off" policy for teachers towards students, and where just basic Buddhism and the Bodhisattva way are taught. That's all anyone I ever knew expected from TB.

What do the rest of you think of this? I think it's a step in the right direction. And I noticed someone here said they'd like to have a chance to invite Shamar to set up Bodhi Path Centers in the UK. I think Shamar gives his email address on his website, www.shamarpa.org You can contact him directly. I'd be interested in attending one of his centers, too, but there are only 1 or 2 in all the US. Too bad Shamar has acquired a bit of a bad reputation as a result of the Karmapa controversy.

Hi Misstyk

I met Shamarpa briefly several years ago in Karma Guen and I was deeply impressed by him. I also agree that Shamarpa is one of the few teachers to openly acknowledge the problems that have surfaced with Tibetan Buddhism’s introduction to the West.

His teaching on the “Four Ways to Authenticate a Genuine Buddhist Teacher” and also his teaching on “Seeing” is also very sound.

It seems to me that Shamarpa is trying to encourage Ole’s followers to think critically. I think Nydahl’s original motivations were probably good but his relaxed “Westerner friendly” approach to Dharma has given some of his students the impression that “anything goes” as long as your motivation is good.

I personally don’t think that the motivation check is a quick assessment which you can use to justify your actions. I say this because after 2 years I’m still not completely sure what my motivation is for posting on this forum.

The parties and drinking are used as a marketing tool a little too much in my opinion. I could smell ‘pot’ being smoked one time in Karma Guen during a Phowa course, which seemed to suggest that those partaking were under the impression it was OK? In an attempt to create a fair and balanced argument I was never aware of any teachers saying pot smoking was acceptable, Ole included.

Shamarpa does tend to stick to Dharma. I did, however, read an essay in a book on how he felt Westerners were becoming “machine minded”. An essay which was as clear as his explanations of dharma and, more importantly for me, appeared to be well thought out, measured and not in the least bit sensationalised .

Sadly, I think Tibetan Buddhism spends too much time propagating myth and legend. It is probably my “stiff” Western mind that fails to see the wisdom behind the stories. I was always uncomfortable with Ole’s travelling teachers turning up at the centres and recounting stories of the great masters performing miracles or supernatural feats as though they were ‘real’ accounts. I was told on several occasions that they were “true because our teachers tell us they are”. I would challenge this by telling them that some Christians believe the story of Noah because their teachers tell them it’s true also. More often than not they failed to see the comparison and preferred to go on believing in something without any evidence to support its claim.

Ooops…. I forgot to add…

Shamarpa’s failure to mention the abuses carried out by Tibetan masters (I believe Kalu Rinpoche also liked to indulge his carnal desires) may be due to the promise to practice ‘correct speech’ and respect for his Tibetan peers? I have not really aware of Shamarpa making a direct attack on anyone. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

So this may be the reason for ‘glossing over’ Eastern abuses? It might be possible that ‘correct speech’ is a useful tool for avoiding to mention the embarrassing? This is also a possibility.

But you quite rightly point out that this is an interesting oversight and hints at a lack of transparency.

Steve

Quote
SteveLpool
and hints at a lack of transparency.

that´s a bit understated.

offcourse it´s also my fault, but I got a name from Thrinley Thaye Dorje before I ever heard of Orgyen Thrinle Dorje and the Karmapa controversy.

For me personally, I don't think it matters who you took a name from because I don't believe either of the Karmapa's is the re-incarnation of the 16th.

I am yet to be shown any unrefutable evidence that re-incarnation is 'real' or 'true'. When this is proven beyond doubt then I can turn my mind towards worrying which one is genuine.

I would just add that the circumstances surrounding Orgyen Thrinle Dorje's alleged 'escape' are a little strange. I had lunch with Thrinley Thaye Dorje and thought he was a really good guy. he struck me as humble, honest and thoughtful. I have never met the other Karmapa so I can't comment on him.

I do think there is a temptation to hide a teachers impropriety behind this smoke screen of avoiding 'wrong speech'. If someone has abused a position of trust then they must be exposed.

Steve

Thank you for a thoughtful reply, Steve. I hadn't expected Shamar to name names, but his view comes across as one-sided and really a little anti-Western, or perhaps narrowly focussed on Western culture as being at the center of what he feels is the problem in introducing tantric techniques to the West. He could have made a broad, general reference to Tibetan teachers not behaving responsibly, or something of that nature, to fill out the picture. There are diplomatic ways to allude to problems, it doesn't have to take the form of an "attack". Seems sad that the idea of "attack" was what first came to mind for you (and probably for others). I take that as a sign of the mentality in some sanghas. It sounds like some people have had some rough and unpleasant experiences. I've found that it's not only important to check out one's lama thoroughly before making a commitment, it's equally important to check out the sangha thoroughly before deciding on a long-term commitment. If something goes wrong, you want to be in a sangha where most will support you. A sangha that has a standard of professional ethics for teachers is always a good sign. This is the current trend in Western sanghas--to provide a statement of guidelines of ethical behavior limiting teacher's contact with students in certain ways. (btw, I find references above to alcohol and perhaps drugs available at parties in the sangha a bit strange. That has nothing to do with Buddhism. Buddhism is about discipline.)

People misinterpret "right speech". The Buddha said that " he who blames one who deserves blame, at the right time, and according to the truth, and who praises one who deserves praise, at the right time, and according to the truth, this is the most beautiful..." (I don't remember the ending). Speaking out when something goes seriously wrong is Right Speech. Speaking out to warn others of danger or potential harm is also Right Speech. Maintaining silence in the face of wrong-doing, especially when people are being harmed, is Wrong Speech, according to the Buddha. I suspect that most sanghas misrepresent Right and Wrong Speech, some of them--deliberately to maintain a culture of silence and subtle control. And it's easy to hide the Buddha's true words when the only sutras that are studied are Mahayana ones.

Possibly Shamar was thinking of of some of his colleagues when he spoke, but just chose not to mention it. In any case, I wish more lineage leaders would take some responsibility for trying to restore credibility and ethical behavior to their tradition. Shamar is setting a good example, I think

oamoam, it's nice to hear about Thrinley Thaye Dorje. There's so little info about him, he doesn't get much media attention compared to Orgyan Thrinle, I know almost nothing about him. I'd like the two Karmapas to get something closer to equal time in the media, so we could get to know Thrinley Thaye better. : )

I just wanted to clarify one point.

I was never aware of drugs being made available at any of the DWB centres or groups I attended. I did smell cannabis being smoked at Karma Guen once but this was not a common occurence in my experience.

Alcohol was openly consumed after meditation sessions or talks by visiting teachers.

Steve

I don´t talk about who is the real karmapa or not, that´s not my business and I have not the slightest idea how others think to be able to judge things like that.

I talk about how all of them the hide this problems and even don´t allow students to talk about them.

Hi oamoam

They hide the problem because to address it raises the question in a students mind, "what if I'm following the wrong one?"

If you think there is only one Karmapa then there is less chance for this question to trouble a student. That's why they don't like students talking about it.

By the very fact of you posting this message suggests to me that you are closer to the Buddhist ideal than many who choose to close their eyes, put their fingers in their ears and just believe (or hope they've chosen the right one). The fact is, none of them really know if they're following the right one. They trust whichever side of the split presented a Karmapa to them.

I believe this problem is sometimes refered to as the 'elephant in the room'.

I wouldn't speculate with the Sangha as to who was the right Karmapa. I didn't need to. I don't believe in re-incarnation.

What was more important for me was to try an uncover which side of the split had the most to gain from putting forward a bogus Karmapa.

Steve

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