davidlondon and krampapa are both trolls sent by this cult (and probably the same person too!), as evidenced by the fact they are new members and have only posted in this thread. This proves my point about members being told to 'correct' information online. It also proves my point about them harassing former members. On top of the posts here, I have also been receiving harassing and threatening e-mails from DW. I challenge you to provide evidence for your claims (which I know you have none, because it's all just slander to try and discredit critics) or shut up.

Now about the secrecy of these books. In DW you have to get an 'empowerment' from 'Lama' Ole Nydahl where he basically rambles on some Tibetan mumbo jumbo and touches a bit of metal on your head. You have to do a different one of these before being allowed to do any of these meditations. You have to go to separate lectures for each of these 'empowerments' consisting of Ole going on about pseudo-scientific, racist rubbish (he is especially racist towards Muslims), costing between £10-£35 a pop. There is a new 'empowerment' for every ritual, and this keeps the brainwashing up, and keeps the money flowing to Ole Nydahl, so he can keep his lifestyle of luxury, flying round the world.

The Diamond Way cult keeps them from people who are 'not ready' (translated from cultspeak meaning not sufficiently brainwashed yet). This is because the cult knows full well that if people saw this from the start, they'd run a mile! Hiding your true beliefs in this way is very common amongst cults.

What also interests me is the copyright on these books. You can't have it both ways. Either the material unmodified from the Tibetan originals, and so, given such an antiquity out of copyright -- suggesting that the copyright applied by Diamond Way is a fraud -- or the material has been significantly modified by Diamond Way.

Corboy -- Tut Tut. Off in a huff?
For info -- I am not *in* the Aro sangha. Chogyam and Dechen are personal friends. Chogyam and I were students with Choegyal Namhai Norbu during the late 70s nd 80s.
The prejudice manifested by e-sangha is shameful. Who are they to judge what is and what isn't useful Buddhism? Are they fully realised beings?
Are you?
Sigh
Pema

Recently I send two message to E-Sangha and they were almost immediately ereased. They are a lot of sarcasms when you are not saying what buddhists want to hear.
And there is a lot of hypocrisy in the buddhist communities regarding the exploitation and abuse of women-disciples by tibetan lamas.
Hypocrisy too when the Dalai Lama told his audiences to became vegetarian, that meat bring bad karma when himself eat meat and his not vegetarian!
E-Sangha speak about non-violence, compassion but in fact it's a totalitarian place where discussion is not possible. Like in cults...

Quote
Emma C
davidlondon and krampapa are both trolls sent by this cult (and probably the same person too!), as evidenced by the fact they are new members and have only posted in this thread. This proves my point about members being told to 'correct' information online. It also proves my point about them harassing former members. On top of the posts here, I have also been receiving harassing and threatening e-mails from DW. I challenge you to provide evidence for your claims (which I know you have none, because it's all just slander to try and discredit critics) or shut up.

Now about the secrecy of these books. In DW you have to get an 'empowerment' from 'Lama' Ole Nydahl where he basically rambles on some Tibetan mumbo jumbo and touches a bit of metal on your head. You have to do a different one of these before being allowed to do any of these meditations. You have to go to separate lectures for each of these 'empowerments' consisting of Ole going on about pseudo-scientific, racist rubbish (he is especially racist towards Muslims), costing between £10-£35 a pop. There is a new 'empowerment' for every ritual, and this keeps the brainwashing up, and keeps the money flowing to Ole Nydahl, so he can keep his lifestyle of luxury, flying round the world.

The Diamond Way cult keeps them from people who are 'not ready' (translated from cultspeak meaning not sufficiently brainwashed yet). This is because the cult knows full well that if people saw this from the start, they'd run a mile! Hiding your true beliefs in this way is very common amongst cults.

What also interests me is the copyright on these books. You can't have it both ways. Either the material unmodified from the Tibetan originals, and so, given such an antiquity out of copyright -- suggesting that the copyright applied by Diamond Way is a fraud -- or the material has been significantly modified by Diamond Way.

Hi Emma, perhaps this may be of interest to you

Empowerment
[en.wikipedia.org])

Bit of metal
[www.luckymojo.com]

Tibetan mumbo jumbo
[en.wikipedia.org]

[...]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2008 12:38AM by rrmoderator.

Here is my response regarding the secrecy of these books...

In DW you have to get an 'empowerment' from 'Lama' Ole Nydahl where he basically rambles on some Tibetan mumbo jumbo and touches a bit of metal on your head. You have to do a different one of these before being allowed to do any of these meditations. You have to go to separate lectures for each of these 'empowerments' consisting of Ole going on about pseudo-scientific, racist rubbish (he is especially racist towards Muslims), costing between £10-£35 a pop. There is a new 'empowerment' for every ritual, and this keeps the brainwashing up, and keeps the money flowing to Ole Nydahl, so he can keep his lifestyle of luxury, flying round the world.

The Diamond Way cult keeps them from people who are 'not ready' (translated from cultspeak meaning not sufficiently brainwashed yet). This is because the cult knows full well that if people saw this from the start, they'd run a mile! Hiding your true beliefs in this way is very common amongst cults.

What also interests me is the copyright on these books. You can't have it both ways. Either the material unmodified from the Tibetan originals, and so, given such an antiquity out of copyright -- suggesting that the copyright applied by Diamond Way is a fraud -- or the material has been significantly modified by Diamond Way.

Also, davidlondon and krampapa are clearly both trolls sent by this cult (and probably the same person too!), as evidenced by the fact they are new members and have only posted in this thread. This proves my point about members being told to 'correct' information online. It also proves my point about them harassing former members. On top of the posts here, I have also been receiving harassing and threatening e-mails from DW. I challenge you to provide evidence for your claims (which I know you have none, because it's all just slander to try and discredit critics) or shut up.

Pema,

In practical terms, what is the difference between dzogchen and vajrayana? Dzogchen doesn't use budda forms and the like? I had presumed that the natural state supposedly the result of mahamudra awareness was the same as rigpa, but its not?

To whom it may concern:

The topic of this thread is "Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism."

If you want to discuss another topic start another thread.

E-Sangha is not the topic of this thread.

Empowerment
[en.wikipedia.org])

Bit of metal
[www.luckymojo.com]

Tibetan mumbo jumbo
[en.wikipedia.org]

...

Sorry, the Empowerment link should be

[en.wikipedia.org])

Hi everyone, I am new to this forum that I happened to stumble across. I am a student of Lama Ole in the Netherlands since a few years, and felt I have to react to the following statement by Emma C:

[...] this keeps the brainwashing up, and keeps the money flowing to Ole Nydahl, so he can keep his lifestyle of luxury, flying round the world. [...]

Anyone who has spent any time observing Lama Ole's lifestyle will notice that he is clearly not doing what he is doing to 'keep a lifestyle of luxury'. On the contrary, he is known to sleep only a few hours every night to be able to work more: give teachings, have interviews with the thousands of people that come to see him, answer e-mails, write books, manage centers, etc. He is not giving his body an easy time at all and doesn't take any time for himself. In short: he works so hard that there wouldn't even be time to spend any money that would have been kept for personal gain.

Also, in my perception his flying around the world has nothing to do with comfort or a lifestyle of luxury. He is always traveling the cheapest possible way (one time even leading to being captured by rebels in Colombia because he chose to take a long bus ride instead of a flight) and rather carries his own luggage than letting someone carry it for him.

It is true that Lama Ole is not your traditional Buddhist teacher, but I do think that he is very genuine. As others have already pointed out in this thread, in his teachings he is always very open about everything, knowing that some of his statements are controversial. People are completely free to accept him as their teacher or not, and I have never experienced any pressure concerning leaving the group. In our group, we have had a lot of people come and go or stay.

JHolland,

From my perspective, both yours and Emma's argument are without evidence of facts. In one argument, Emma says she thinks so, and then you answer by saying you don't think so.

Personally, I think your argument inconclusive. The reason is that many cults have established this type of culture where the "great leader" is the person always sacrificing everything for the flock. I actually read this same argument from different sources in Diamond Way. For a milder counter-argument, we could think he is purely a workholic and the fact he sleeps little between trips is not really evidence that he is really doing a big sacrifice. I heard similar stories in Japan when Aum Shinrikyo (the terrorist cult) told about Mr. Asahara (their leader). While some people drive a cult-like organization for desire of "luxuries", some other people (and these may or may not be the worst types) are driven by their own need to be acknowledged as a "great leader" and feel in control of other people's lives. I think there is some anedoctal evidence that Mr. Nydahl used his positiion to obtain sexual favors from followers. While this may be "mutual", it does not seem to reflect the argument he is doing a lot of "sacrifices" traveling around..... He may feel entitled to this all-you-can-eat salad bar of groupie women followers, and this may be enough motive for him to go from place to place, instead of creating a more solid organization where he could delegate more responsibilities locally.

It seems a lot of faulty arguments..... What is the relationship between carrying your own luggage and not leading a cult? Politicians use this type of technique all the time. There are pictures of politicians working in farms, with hard hats in factories, carrying their own luggage, travelling economy class instead of business jets.... This seems purely image control. If you became aware about such small detail, this seems more evidence this is part of some "spin" to make Mr. Nydahl appear something different than he may really be.

I disagree with the argument that "people are free to accept him or not". This seems a false sense of freedom. The truth is that Mr. Nydahl requires absolute devotion to him and his ideas once the choice is made, and this is the most important point! Mr. Nydhal consistently denies access to other buddhist sources, if a member chooses him as a teacher. Since this is done usually at a very early stage, that member still has no structure to see Mr. Nydhal's from a more general light. In addition, this false sense of "freedom" is a mostly a psychological tool. New members "feel" like they made the choice, but once in those centers it is very difficult (but not impossible) to maintain a free spirit from what Mr. Nydahl's teachings.

If you go to these centers, there are some clear mood for a "party" spirit. Their centers are called "clubs", and the consumption of alcohol is widely encouraged. The comunal spirit of the centers lead also to member having multiple sexual partners, and the idea that "jealousy" is one of the worst types of behavior, which seems to lead to the "free love" spirit.... Of course, not all members do so, but this is widely accpted. In all, it would appear to me that Mr. Nydahl just used buddhist teachings to institutionalize the free-wheeling hippie life he had in the 70s. The need for him to go around the world coudl be linked to his strong ego and need to control these centers to be what he wants them to be..... Not really a sign of sacrifice.