The discussion is getting a little intense here. Maybe not bad. Maybe we are getting close to some important points.

@rrmoderator
I do understand the rules. What karam-mudra described has been done in the course of this thread many times "discuss basic theorems ... in the context of Nydahl´s DW, otherwise it is not understandable how he works". I cannot see how currently any member does "promote a specific religious and/or political viewpoint" any more than any other. But of course we are - and isn't that the purpose of a discussion forum? - expressing our viewpoints regarding the theme of this thread. What is happening here is that some members see it as if the questionable reports about Mr. Nydahl were only due to the person Mr. Nydahl, while other members think that these reports are related to the tradition which Mr. Nydahl represents. In general, if we are researching any problem and begin to see that this problem may be related to an underlying principle and try to find out what this underlying principle can be, I do not think we are not looking at the problem anymore. Instead, this allows us to look at the very same problem from a different perspective so that we can get a more complete understanding.

@Karam-Mudra
Tank you for the information about that report. The searchengine showed, it is (at least at this moment) publicly accessible from [www.worldwidepsychologiesdumonde.sitew.com].
(One hint: if you like, have a look at Zen master Eido Shimano, try "Aitken-Shimano Letters", for more parallels even outside tantric-tibetan Lamaism)

@Suenam
I think the question should be exactly the opposite and not directed to a member of this forum: If Nydahl (and others) have acted harmfully, how can they still be allowed to call themselves Lama, Rinpoche and so on? How can a Kalu Rinpoche attest Mr. Nydahl a state of mind "liberated as far someone in Vajra-Buddhism can be" (referring to Karam-Mudras latest message here and assuming that this is true - @Karam-Mudra: is it possible to publish the source of this information here?)? How can a Kalu Rinpoche do that, if in reality Mr. "Nydahl's 'vision' of the world is utterly dualistic" (referring to your latest post with complete agreement to this statement of yours)? And also, how does such an attest by Kalu Rinpoche have any significance, when this is the same Kalu Rinpoche June Campbell reported about? What does it tell us about Mr. Nydahl, if he would base his statement he had reached "liberation" on an attest by such a person? Are the parallels not remarkable? June Campbell - Kalu Rinpoche, Karam-Mudra - Mr. Nydahl, Janice Doe/Mimi/Dierdre Smith/Mary-Anne/Janine Dubois - Sogyal Rinpoche, ...? And then this Kalu Rinpoche attests Mr. Nydahl a state of liberation (and the Dalai Lama leads the inauguration of the temple of Sogyal Rinpoche). Congratulations for that... (again: this is not trying to go off-topic, this is trying to look at Mr.Nydahl and DW in a wider context)

According to your viewpoint "the cult-like situation ... is a product of the interaction of both the leader and the followers". When someone spreads out into a different culture promoting himself with the highest ethic ideals I think we may expect from such a person that he knows about the problems inherent in "power differentials" between leaders and followers. If he is not able to keep up with the high ethic ideals that he thinks he has to teach to a different culture, then I can not see the point in even listening to him anymore. Just my opinion. Also, you seem to ignore the fact that the position of Lamas in the old tibet was in a very similar way cultish. I cannot believe that this cult-like situation is created by the followers, no matter how much any Lama, including the Dalai Lama, tries to make the world believe it was like that.

Last but most important:

Quote

... such "power" ... what to look for in a Lama and what the "effect" should be

If I understand your message correctly, you agree that Lamas have such "power", and that when a Lama uses this power, it has an "effect". So please let me repeat my question: If a Lama has this "power" and people experience the "effect" of this "power" as "brainwash", as "using Dzogchen as Valium", as a feeling to not be able to speak their own mind, as more or less instant "conversion" and so on, then what makes the use of this "power" by a Lama a good thing?

Let's try a reflection: If I knew something that I thought was unquestionable good and right, but very different from what you think is good and right, and I had this "power" - would it then be a good thing, if I used this power to convert you to believe what I think is good and right? Would my good and right be more worth than your good and right, just because I had the "power" to make you believe what I believe?

And again: this is on-topic - Suenam wrote about "DWB members ... ascribing Nydahl with such 'power'". A post of the thread-starter Emma C from August 14, 2008 (my mistake: it was a message by Emma C, but not the opening post) contains the word "brainwash". A post of bkalnoky from May 27, 2009 states "She'd never dare state these views in public in the sanga, let alone tell Ole himself she considers these things as mistakes. She'd rather, she says, jump in the Danube". And I would like to very urgently point to the reports of Karam-Mudra.

In my opinion it is very important that we finally begin to acknowledge the fact that people do have these experiences related to buddhist teachers as Mr. Nydahl. It does not help in any way to state that these people are confused (when suenam writes "delusion of DWB members in ascribing Nydahl with such 'power'" this is just other words but the same meaning as "confused" to me) or that they should take the responsibility for themselves (for what? for being manipulated by a Lama using this "power" on them?) or by trying to make it look like these problems were related to only Mr. Nydahl when there are similar reports from other teachers from Vajrayana and other traditions.

Absolutely, "People can believe whatever they want, but they may not do whatever they wish in the name of those beliefs." (latest message by rrmoderator) So please can the ones who know something more about this "power" help the ones who do not know what this "power" is? Is it a fact that buddhist Lamas gain a psychic ability to manipulate the thoughts and beliefs of other people? Is it true or at least possible that buddhist teachers like Mr. Nydahl can invoke certain mind-states in other people without these other people knowing what is done to them or protect themselves against it? If anybody here in this forum knows something about this "power", can you please point us into the direction of valid information, sources, books, internet links or something like this? Explicitly not with the aim to gain this "power" but only to understand what is happening.

Your help would be greatly appreciated.

@rrmoderator:

"It seems to me that the behavior of Ole Nydahl is the primary issue here." That is exactly the view of Corboy who nevertheless took for himself the freedom and posted by the pageful material about shamanistic roots of Vajrayana which was very helpful, but no moderator intervened. Look where you set different standards.

The behavier of a cult leader is never understandable without the context of what he is psychological motivated by and the Guru-relationshep Nydahl builds up with his students is a result of the postulates of Vajrayana-Buddhism. Due to my experiences I have accumulated a deep knowledge about the practise of the so called enlightened teachers. Sometimes I find it helpful to share it here. It does not only come out of literature, but of reality.

@suenam:

You have an idealistic view -it is normal acccording your education in the western culture - on what liberated people do or not. To be liberated does not mean to be a good human, in opposite. The postulate is here that whatever a enlightened person does it is automaticlally the best for all sentient beeings, wether he kills or heals or curses or lies or has sex with dependent students. That is the daily lunacy of Guru-related "religions".

You put great attention on alleged dualistic views of Nydahl, like in a philosophical seminar. That may be one way to renounce onself from a hurting experience with a teacher like him. But it is never a vajrayana-buddhist view. Karmapa, Sharmapa, Kalu, all of them see Nydahl as liberated. That´s the fact. And you fight with a concept of conscience they all don´t have.

Like me before I was able to see.

I understand the issue of context.

But this thread should not drift off topic into a discussion of Buddhist practices and theories.

Each point should relate directly to Ole Nydahl.

@rrmoderator:

I will honestly try. Sometimes it happens I go to deep in my analyses of Vajrayana-Buddhism. My experiences as space-dakini of Nydahl brought me into it. So I should write a book like June Campell did about her experiences as young sexual consort of the old Kalu. She went out of it all like me a and had on her way out to destroy the myth she depended on. Like Adorno said: Only that kind of thinking is able to destroy a myth which is strong against itself.

@backathome:

"Is it possible to publish the source of this information here?" Yes, of course, because the source of this information is Nydahl himself. Once I went to a Phowa-course in summer 2004, where Nydahl put a lot of attention on me, flirting around a bit. I did not really care, because I was more interested to meditate and to sing the Phowa-puja which I deeply loved to do. We all were in the tent, when he came in a little late and on his way to the throne he said, looking at me:

I am considered as liberated and Kalu Ringpoche attested it.

I am sure that was told in my direction, because he was convinced I would not adequately adore him. He was right. Normally people do not speak about their liberation, but he was very impatient due to my connection to him and it was said a little bit like between an information and a showmanship. Never before and never afterwards he spoke about again.


Your question: "Is it true or at least possible that buddhist teachers like Mr. Nydahl can invoke certain mind-states in other people without these other people knowing what is done to them or protect themselves against it? If anybody here in this forum knows something about this "power", can you please point us into the direction of valid information, sources, books, internet links or something like this? Explicitly not with the aim to gain this "power" but only to understand what is happening."

Yes, Nydahl and others can invoke altered mind-states in their students. That is my experience, Nydahl opened my Kundalini which is only possible when one has an opened Kundalini too. I look for more information and send it via private-message. Are you able to read in German?

Thank you Karam-mudra. Yes I am able to read german. Do you know if there are english or german translations of the essay of the french psychotherapists or excerpts from it?

Are there other members who like to share their knowledge about this "power" to influence the mind of other people? Or who have experienced this themselves or are related to other persons who did experience this and are willing to report about these experiences? If the information would be of too general nature or not related to Mr. Nydahl but another buddhist teacher or Lama, please send a pm so that we do not break the forum rules.

(But still - given the reports about "brainwash", "using Dzogchen as valium", "jump in the Danube" etc. in this discussion thread - I think this question is in general related to Mr. Nydahl. So why not share relevant information about this here in public, so that other people have access to it, too?)

Corboy, your messages seem to be based on a lot of reading, would you like to contribute something to this question, point us to important sources or something like that?

Suenam, I hope you do not feel insulted, we only do have different opinions and I wanted to counterweigh your statements. Would you like to tell us more about this "power"?

Thank you to all in advance.

Hi BackAtHome,

just two more links here, they could be also interested for other members:

1. As far as Nydahl is to be considered as liberated, what means he has an opened Kundalini - in Tibetan this state of mind is called Bardo state -, this e-book could be helpful to understand what´s going on then:

[www.kundaliniawakeningsystems1.com]


2. On downthecrookedpath you find an experience of a woman who was the space dakini of Sogyal, it is very similar to mine. I had it on my blog and the blogger of downthecrookedpath translated it into English:

[downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.de]

Quote
BackAtHome
(But still - given the reports about "brainwash", "using Dzogchen as valium", "jump in the Danube" etc. in this discussion thread - I think this question is in general related to Mr. Nydahl. So why not share relevant information about this here in public, so that other people have access to it, too?)

Corboy, your messages seem to be based on a lot of reading, would you like to contribute something to this question, point us to important sources or something like that?

Suenam, I hope you do not feel insulted, we only do have different opinions and I wanted to counterweigh your statements. Would you like to tell us more about this "power"?

Not at all. It just seems to me that although you are joining the dots logically, a grain of truth does not tell the whole story...

Firstly, I disagree with Kalu Rinpoche, I never met him and if he said that Nydahl is liberated then we disagree on that.

Secondly, Nydal does not teach Dzogchen, in fact his teachings are so far removed from Dzogchen and if he did understand Dzogchen teachings then there would be no problem here.

Thirdly, Nydahl has as much power over others as they choose to give him. They are responsible for their own mind states, and what they choose to open themselves up to.
- This is more a personal choice that a statement of fact - if you wish to buy into a reality where you think other people can control your mind state, then you do so at your own risk - this is what DWB members do, and that is what makes them cult-like.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2012 05:46AM by suenam.

Right, that's why we need a lot of grains of truth to get the whole story. That's why I'm asking for real support here, not for answers trying to obscure the facts.

It is not any reasonable to deny the fact, that some people are able to control the mind states of some other people. There are many different techniques for that like
- a boss overpowering an employee who is financially depending on his job
- peer pressure (extreme example: third reich in germany)
- regular education of children from their earliest years, indoctrination, propaganda, censorship
- hypnosis and so on

People can be responsible for their own mind states if they have the knowledge that they might be manipulated and the independence and ability to withdraw themselves from that. I do not care about the responsibility here, so please stop repeatedly answering in terms of responsibility.

What is important is the fact that people have these experiences in relation to buddhist teachers. The parallels in the reports of people who experience themselves as victims of mystical or tantrical manipulation are obvious. I can not believe, they all are just individually, self-created illusions of a confused or weak mind. Please read some of those reports and seriously rethink your position.

So again (not interested in discussing the question of responsibility here): Are there other members who like to share their experience or knowledge about people's minds being influenced by buddhist teachers or lamas, like some messages in this thread suggested regarding Mr. Nydahl and DW? Is it maybe a part of the teachings for buddhist teachers or lamas?

---

Another question: Karam-Mudra wrote

Quote

The postulate is here that whatever an enlightened person does it is automaticlally the best for all sentient beeings, wether he kills or heals or curses or lies ...

Can other members confirm this? Are there valid sources regarding buddhist liberation, like Mr. Nydahl claims to have achieved, allowing these people to curse(!) or lie?

That would mean whatever a buddhist liberated person, like Mr. Nydahl, tells us, we can never be sure if that person is lying to us, right? This is an important question. If confirmed, this would shine a very different light on the statements of leading contemporary buddhists.

Quote
karam-mudra
@suenam:

You have an idealistic view -it is normal acccording your education in the western culture - on what liberated people do or not. To be liberated does not mean to be a good human, in opposite. The postulate is here that whatever a enlightened person does it is automaticlally the best for all sentient beeings, wether he kills or heals or curses or lies or has sex with dependent students. That is the daily lunacy of Guru-related "religions".

You put great attention on alleged dualistic views of Nydahl, like in a philosophical seminar. That may be one way to renounce onself from a hurting experience with a teacher like him. But it is never a vajrayana-buddhist view. Karmapa, Sharmapa, Kalu, all of them see Nydahl as liberated. That´s the fact. And you fight with a concept of conscience they all don´t have.

Like me before I was able to see.

I think you have misunderstood my point. Nydahl's whole position on Islam is based upon an appeal to right and wrong, and to conscience, and as a result the DWB members develop a dualistic and moralizing way of thinking.

This is not the "pure view" they claim it to be - you have made it clear that what Nydahl did to you was against your wishes, so it was not harmonious but instead motivated by his selfish desire and as a result was harmful precisely because it was dualistic.

The postulate that whatever a enlightened person does it is automatically the best for all sentient beings is itself a dualistic formulation which is also one often repeated by DWB. It may well be that Nydahl opening your energy centres was well intentioned, that he believed he was doing it "for the best", however the result proves that this was not the case and therefore is testimony to the impurity of his vision.
I also believe that your failure to realise this is part of the reason you have had difficulty in taking back control for yourself.

Quote from this blog:

"You know the story about the mahasiddha Ghantapa? People judged him based on their very limited worldly perception of him and his courtesan, when in fact they turned out to be emanations of Heruka and Vajrayogini. Perhaps this is a universal lesson: We don’t know as much as we think, and appearances can be deceptive."

In my eyes you did not grasp the point, you seem to deny the facts of Vayrayana´s Guru-precepts by assigning them only to Nydahl´s cult and taking away the dignity of my and others analyses in that way. And even though I see your posts here as important and lucid the model of your argumentation now is easy to read.

I do not want to gamble to much about Nydahl´s motivation here but I am convinced he is still deeply convinced of his doing as well doing. Only because I went out of his system I turned it into opposite. That was my decision. So we have the result you spoke about. I could have exist as a secret space dakini for the rest of my life, living consequently in a connection with Nydahl and in the certainy of beeing worshiped by him and also by Karmapa. I did´nt due to seeing that kind of worship as an hidden system of conquest female energies and a deep mysoginistic system at all.

So you are wrong when you "believe that your failure to realise this is part of the reason you have had difficulty in taking back control for yourself."

Aside from the fact that you speak about something you never experinced. The "quality" of the Bardo-state does not depend on any knowledge or insight, it depends only on individual and collective uncounsciousness which leads your Ego, I, counsciousnes or how ever you want to mention it. This phenomenon is only to balance, not to control. This is a process of eternity, like C.G.Jung said.