"Dear Darius,
I agree with you on that talking about islam could be limited, however in Europe I think this is a big issue especially if you look at the aim of Turkey wanting to join, which would mean that the millions of Turkish could freely and without restriction move to Europe; then there would be no stop. I guess you could present your point of you to him and ask…"
Hello all
That's is little part of respond I got from blog author before it was taken off . I can not find the author anywhere else so I try to respond on this forum.
Any kind of fundamentalist thinking is dangerous to society be it from east west south or north. It seems that you haven't been to Europe for long time. people from Turkey already live everywhere be it Germany or UK or any other country. As good Buddhist you should know that all beings look for happiness be they turkish Germans or whoever. being student of Ole you should remind him that as it seems he forgets to tell his students about that. It is interesting you being Australian living on the land taken away from the natives and defending Europe from Muslims. I have a question for you, if all those Muslims would convert and become Members of DW , would be ok than for them to come to Europe?
I know this forum is not for this but if you decide to respond you can register and write me a private massage.

Let's not take this thread off topic with a discussion about Muslims.

Hi all,

just stopping by to throw in a few lines. Happy to see the growing confidence here though I still wish it would take less time for the public media to report about this. Like yesterday, there was a report about the death of San Myung Mun, leader of the Mun sect. One of his ex-followers gave a statement 100% identical to statements seen here, about how it is impossible to see the brainwashing as long as you are inside the organisation because from inside it all seems so right. Who would be blind enough to not see the parallels?

I did not read all the posts I missed since page 76, so I do not know if what I am writing here was already done by someone else. I do understand that it can be annoying if someone (me, in this case) does not participate in the ongoing discussion but every now and then throws in a post completely unrelated to the latest messages. But I see this forum also as a database of information for other researchers and want to contribute my little share. Hope it is okay with you and helpful in some way. Also - no criticism just my point of view - I do believe it is not good for me to invest my energy too much in a forum discussion, because in a forum we can bring the information only to the members of the forum, while my real wish is to bring this to the public.

So the topic of this post is:

Has anyone ever done a professional psychological evaluation of Mr. Nydahl? DW operates very much on this level, trying to entangle people on a personal level into their spiderweb and then control them on this level or if that fails hurt them on this level with statements like mentally ill and so on. To me that is sandbox behaviour of little children, called "scapegoating" in another post here or bullying. Unfortunatley a trend these days and one I would expect wise people to recognize and work against instead to adopt.

So why not take this to another level? There are a lot of interesting statements of Mr. Nydahl which I am sure would tell a professional psychoanalyst a lot about the person behind these statements. Karam-mudra once stated, she saw Mr. Nydahl as being depersonalized in just the same way he did it with Karam-mudra. I believe that is one part of the truth and one of the other parts is the personality of an aged danish alpha male hopelessly lost in his own self-image.

I want to try to take a first step here into this direction. What do we know about this Mr. Nydahl?


We know he smuggled drugs and went to prison for that. People change and that is how he likes to present himself now, changed. But in May 2011 he published an internet video in which he states "... we discovered that it was achievable. That the experiences we knew from very short LSD experiences and so on, that this for real was permanently maintainable." (translated from german language). And a forum entry from 2009 (page 26, antilamaole, feb 22 2009) says "Ole himself has stated 'In the 60's we used LSD, but now we use Buddhism.'".

We know he was a boxer, a fighter when he was young. People change and now he likes to present himself as a lama of buddhism. Buddhism likes to present itself to the world as being peaceful. Despite wanting to be a lama of a peaceful philosophy there are repeated reports about his hate speech regarding muslims and africa. There are many reports about the aggressive behaviour of the DW and its lawyers, trying to suppress critics and opponents.

We know he was born in 1941 which makes him 71 years old. But there are a lot of reports about him holding on firmly to worldly "pleasures" like fast cars, young women, bungee jumping, skydiving, stagediving, traveling all around the globe, being the head leader of a multi-national organiszation, having lots of admirers, making quite some money with his lectures and so on.

As a wannabe buddhist teacher I once heard Mr. Nydahl stating that the Ego was a big problem, but we do know that Mr. Nydahl once stated "I do not need to be popular. It is enough that I am right.". (translated from german language)

We know he had let's say "contacts" with his female students. He once publicly admitted having had more than 500 women in his life. At another occasion, when his behaviour was questioned he stated "There is no teacher-student relationship involved in that. They're Diamondway Buddhists, but they're not my students in that moment. They're equal partners". That was 2009 but in 2010 a forum entry (page 44, luis peru, may 04 2010) states "I saw Ole in Lima. ... I saw two argentinian girls in his twenties had a tongue kiss with him in front of everyone in the phowa. One of the is his translator was touching his leg while we meditated." (Which leg, one may ask. Also, given the unquestionable elevated positions of real lamas in buddhism one may wonder what the word "equal" is meant to say about either the number of female lamas in DW or the reality of his lama status.) Another statement of Mr. Nydahl was "I give no teachings on sex or sexuality. When requested by my students, I provide general private guidance about whichever part of their life they seek assistance for, but it is not and has never been Hannah's or my activity to teach sexual tantra." Another statement was "Any woman worldwide who has received sexual Tantra teachings from me will upon confirmation receive $1000." I know which word comes to my mind, when I read about money in conjunction with sex.

At least one report in this forum (Bkalnoky, Page 13, December 15, 2008) exists about these "contacts" having the usual results. A female DW follower of a Budapest group answered to an assumption of Mr. Nydahl having no children "Oh no, he has lots of children.". The forum entry continues "It appears he has kids with a number of women, allegedly because these women wished to have children from him. Magnanimously, he complied."


The above statement are based on sources which DW currently is trying to remove from the internet. But I do have copies of them.


I am not a professional pyschoanalyst, but I do get a completely unholy and unenlightened picture of Mr. Nydahl. I see an old man who always was and always will be nothing but an alpha male. Firmly holding on to his self-image and his need for admiration by other people, he desires an elevated position, may that be as a drug dealer in his youth or as a leader in present days. He denies his age, he clings to youthful adventures in the physical world which among other also include "contacts" with his female students, though he is smart enough to keep his desires shortly above the age of majority. Given his somehow reserved statements regarding his sexuality I would also assume that Mr. Nydahl never experienced love and is unable to love. Instead he seems to follow a mental approach to his life experience, while he seems to understand his heart merely as a power source. His mind seems to be very greedy and so his entanglement with the physial world grew into global dimensions. If the report about Mr. Nydahl having many children is true, this includes also insemination and offspring worldwide.

Further, I see a man who tricked himself into believing he did overcome the typical human weaknesses and now does not any longer want to see himself as he is, but as he wants to be seen by other people. A comparison of his statements and his actions reveals very strong contradictions, which are either very close to lies, said another way propaganda, or show a serious lack of self-knowledge. Some of his statements, including his hate-speech about other religious beliefs and different skin colour, are expressions of a very strong ego and accordingly an attitude of a fighter. Despite his age, the angry young man he once was seems to be alive within him. With anger and hatred being strong energies which also occupy the heart and with Mr. Nydahls need for energy, I assume Mr. Nydahl does not have too much knowledge of the different heart energies or ignores these differences deliberately.

This is just my opinion as a citizen.

It isnt ethical in the professional sense to attempt a psych diagnosis if we are not trained.

It is also not ethical to attempt such a diagnosis in public.

IMO it is more productive to focus on Mr Nydahls behavior, especially in terms of finances and the cruel language at the expense of Muslims, both of which are in violation of the Buddhist precepts against greed and harboring ill will.

The high rinpoches of the Vajryana traditions seem unable or unwilling to depose anyone and lack the mechanisms for doing so. They tend not to speak out in any direct manner.

In the rare cases where a high lama or ripoche did directly demand that a particular practice stop (eg the Shugden controvery), plenty of people disagreed, even though it was the Dalai Lama who gave the direction to stop worshipping that particular deity and there were so many dissidents who defied the DL's direct instructions that they broke away to form their own sects, such as the NKT.

My suggestion is that it is more productive to pressurize the political establishment and media and demand an investigation to see whether DW still meets the criteria of a tax free non profit spiritual project.

In these times of austerity, private fiefdoms created by and for gurus and lamas may be a luxury larger society cannot afford.

Rather than the fruitless task of wondering again and yet again about the psychological make up and intentions of Ole Nydahl, which as non professionals, we are not equipped to do, its the social patterns
(houndng people out, mostly Poles at some centers, turning some centers into what seem like private clubs, vile language at the expense of Muslims)

and financial patterns (acquisitions of expensive property and playthings for Ole) of DW need to be examined, not only by journalists, but also by a committee in Parliament.

It can be said that some psychiatrists have published psychological analyses of living persons, but IMO, that is not a decent thing to do.

Examining finances and property acquisition is much more productive.

Same here, just my opinion. Reflect unprofessional psych diagnosis back to the ones who practice unprofessional psych diagnosis and manipulation and in combination with peer pressure since many, many years in their own groups is not a bad thing, IMO, but a chance for them to experience the consequences of their actions and to change their behaviour.

Just found this: [spiritualteachers.proboards.com].

More confirming pieces in the puzzle - posts from sun (3.9.2011), scared (2.8.2011), sam (19.2.2009).

@rrmoderator: Am I allowed to post copies of their statements here? Just in case DW would try and be successfull with shutting down that website, too?

BackAtHome:

You might post specific quotes you think are important within what's called "fair use".

@rrmoderator: Thank you for answering.

Here are some excerpts of above website:

Member Sun on Sept 3, 2011 is not only critical about Mr. Nydahl. But here I only want to quote some description of sun's own experiences:

Quote

"... I was deeply and profoundly involved in Diamond Way Buddhism for about three years. ... I have a unique perspective as I know what a genuine Buddhist master is like: I had the benefit of working with one closely prior to my DW days, someone who had meditated for 20 years, who had the recognition and traditional mantle-passing of his tradition. ... So I came into the picture pretty naive ... I didn't see/was blind to any warning signs. Anything dodgy (and there was PLENTY) I justified and turned around. ..."

My comment: In his latest post corboy wrote

Quote

The high rinpoches of the Vajryana traditions seem unable or unwilling to depose anyone and lack the mechanisms for doing so.

From my point of view what corboy described is not acceptable. I am referring to my post from June 09, 2012 here: The first buddhist teachings which students receive let the students believe "We are the good ones. We understand you. ... You can trust us. We are here to do good to you. We can protect you.". The result is, that these students then, as sun wrote, "came into the picture pretty naive ... didn't see/was blind to any warning signs. Anything dodgy ... I justified and turned around.". I think there are two ways to see this.

1) Either the ones giving the early teachings do not know what a dangerous and easy to misuse mind condition they cause in their students. Then why are they teachers? At the very least they should take the responsibility and be not only willing but able to depose the ones who do misuse this mind condition of their students. But what do they do? A somewhat famous meeting in March 1993 with 22 western buddhist teachers under the auspices of DL took the easy route for themselves: one of the conclusions was

Quote

"Each student must be encouraged to take responsible measures to confront teachers with unethical aspects of their conduct. If the teacher shows no sign of reform, students should not hesitate to publicize any unethical behavior of which there is irrefutable evidence." (http://www.khandro.net/buddhism_West.htm)

So whatever happens, it is always the responsibility of the students to get it right. I may be mistaken, but I do not know of any report about a change of this position in the last almost 20 years since 1993.

2) This once scared me a little bit, but I do not think it is impossible: This is wanted. If so, the early teachings would aim at taking down the normal protection mechanisms (probably using wrong words here) of a person to then make him or her uncritical and controllable by the same or another buddhist teacher.

The message from member Sun on Sept 3, 2011 continues:

Quote

"... Since leaving the [remark: DW] scene I have experienced genuine spiritual confusion, profound and agonising. i was reluctant to direct any blame toward the teacher (this is warned against in traditions of Buddhism, the student must look to themselves). But years after the event I am starting to think that the environment that Ole creates/directs was not conducive. ..."

So, how does this work: "Each student must be encouraged to take responsible measures to confront teachers with unethical aspects of their conduct." but at the same time traditions of Buddhism warn against directing any blame toward the teacher?

Member Sam on Feb 19, 2009 reports:

Quote

"... I’ve attended the DW centre in Holborn. Yes Diamond way is a cult, I've had extremely painful experiences with them. It took me the larger part of a year to recover from them. ... I classify them as dangerous and even evil."

There are too many reports about people, their minds or their lifes being negatively affected by buddhist teachers. In my opinion the number of and the parallels in these reports show these are not individual cases. A significant number of all these reports, not only the ones quoted here, show these people experience let's say difficulties for an extended period of time, often years before they even get to the point of questioning the teacher. Can it be, that not these people were confused but instead the buddhist teachings they received are the very reason for these difficulties?

I think the question must be allowed: Why in all their centuries of ocean-wide wisdom and with "view vast as the sky" have these "teachers" not learned how to prevent their students from these difficulties, but know that this continues to happen and show no will to act against these teachers? How can that be? What is the reason for this?


More on Mr. Nydahl and his approach to women and his care for the relationships of his students:

Member scared on Aug 2, 2011, also not only critical about DW:

Quote

"... My husband is a follower of Diamond Way under Ole Nydal. ... his [remark: the husband's] long term affair with a younger woman nearly ruined our marriage ... During the most stressful part of our marital discord my husband went to Ole for advice, carrying a picture of his girlfriend, and a picture of me as had been requested. Ole spent only a few minutes with him ... Ole looked at the pictures and told him to "get rid of the wife". ... I thank God for therapy because if we had to depend on DW we wouldn't even be trying to stay together."

Again, member Sun on Sept 3, 2011:

Quote

"... on a retreat, during an informal afternoon gathering, he [remark: Mr. Nydahl] approached a young woman (by far the prettiest, and one of the younger women there, she was early 20's) and said (this is close to a direct quote) "you're my type. You should join me some time accompanying me on a tour". ... She was there with her boyfriend/fiance for christs sake, and Ole's hitting on her. ... I remember going to her and saying "you are so honoured. ... You should do it". I was of the perception at the time that a liason with the Lama would have been the highest teaching or transmission. He ABSOLUTELY DOES uses his authority, his status to initiate sexual liason. My deepest hope and dream was to be one of his chosen women, and I know for a fact that so many of my fellow female practitioners held the same flame."

My comment: Again, the age of the woman Mr. Nydahl approached was shortly above the age of majority. I am no expert on this, so all I can do is to say that the (german-language) website [geschichteinchronologie.ch] contains quotations from one book reporting descriptions of sexual practices in the Kalachakra Tantra with Karma Mudra of age 10, 12, 16 or 20 years and another book stating that all Mudras need to be beautiful, young and devoted. Also it reports about different physical Mudras from another source: 8, 12, 16 and 20 years old. As stated, I am not an expert on this, I just wonder if there could be a connection between these statements and the reports about beautiful women shortly above age of majority let's say "approached" by buddhist teachers. (There are also reports about buddhist monchs "approaching" students below the age of majority, but to go into these details would be off-topic.)


And some more about racist comments by Mr. Nydahl:

Again member scared on Aug 2, 2011:

Quote

"We've watched Ole's video's together. I find Ole's racists comments very disturbing. My husband explains this away saying Ole makes these comments to weed out the people who don't belong in DW. Does that mean non-whites like me are not welcomed as members??? It scares me that my husband worships a man who believes that people in third world countries- especially Africans have earned the circumstances in which they exist as victims of genocide, racism, poverty... (I heard him say this in a video)."

And about the teaching style of Mr. Nydahl and its consequences:

Again member scared on Aug 2, 2011:

Quote

"He [remark: the husband] is so enamored by Ole he is a walking book of quotations with a logic that is (in his mind) indisputable ... I've accompanied my husband to several of Ole's lectures. I've found them very confusing and wonder why his followers make excuses for Ole's nebulous teachings. If you don't understand, you are at fault for not participating in the studies from Basic to Buddha. Every wrong can be explained away by some kind of theory of non-existence."

Backathome wrote

Quote

My comment: In his latest post corboy wrote


Quote:
The high rinpoches of the Vajryana traditions seem unable or unwilling to depose anyone and lack the mechanisms for doing so.
From my point of view what corboy described is not acceptable.

Friends, I do not consider this acceptable, either.

I do not believe that Vajrayana Buddhism has self correcting mechanisms that are 1) timely or 2) effective and c) clearly accessible to those in need of redress.

By contrast, even in medieval times, the Latin Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox churches did have, at least on record, canon law that identified clergy behavior that was not permissible and that abbots or bishops or councils were responsible for correcting the trouble.

This was not always effective, but at least laws were on the books which acknowledged misbehavior and persons were designated to whom one could go to complain, and there were legal procedures (gathering of evidence, places where one could go to appeal) which at least acknowledged problems and did not take as a starting point that ordinary conditioned perception cannot be trusted.

If the Vajrayana traditions want Western money, Westerners bodies (membership, donated labor, respectful attention) then the Vajrayana traditions had better start adapting to Western traditions of accountability and fiscal transparency.

In Tibet, Bhutun, North Western China and Mongolia, Lamistic Buddhism adapted itself to the pre-existing and respected shamanic practices and rituals. It could do this because those areas were not already under tight and centralized rule as was the case in southern areas where Theravedan Buddhism became strong. The southern kings kept the shamans on the sidelines and wanted the monks to remain respectable and support stable behavior in society, not live in luxury, exercise competing political power, let alone drink and screw around.

By contrast in the freer frontier regions in the far north, Buddhism, by quite thoroughly incoporating large elements of indigenous shamanic rituals and by incoporating local protective deities and exorcisms and prosperity pujas, plus classic shaman tools suchas the use bells and drums, skulls and masks, and tantra , into Buddhist rituals --this in the North, made Dharma so elastic that by incorporating and adjusting to these local customs, Vajrayana Buddhism was created. (See Civlized Shamans by Geoffrey Samuels and Religions of Mongolia by Walther Heissig -short and accessible)

Having shown itself elastic and adaptable enough to include even tantra in its embrance, it is now time for Vajrahyana Buddhism and its high lamas, and rinpoches to show similar adaptability by adjusting to the accountability and fiscal transparency that is considered necessary in Western democratic society.

Learn to clean up shop instead of endlessly telling us milch cow westerners to distrust our conditioned perceptions while continuing to tell us to open our wallets and continue the prostrations.

@Corboy

I disagree with you here for two reasons. Firstly, the "accountability and fiscal transparency that is considered necessary in Western democratic society" is great in theory, but in many cases it may be seen that even the western institutions fail to conform to this ideal.
Secondly, concerning any overarching authority, none such exists for Vajrayana, and the examples you gave of the Churches may be seen in reality to have actually given rise to centres of power that were themselves the locus of corruption. I am not sure that having a top down authority structure is particularly desirable or effective - it is still a case of "let the buyer beware" both in regard to mainstream western situations where such authority exists, and with Vajrayana...

@BackAtHome

In both of your instances you seem to reject the idea of the student taking responsibility as if the student is somehow necessarily going to be the victim in these cases. This seems to contradict the quote you chose which says, "Anything dodgy ... I justified and turned around.". The point I'm making is not about blame for what has past, but rather, what we should do from here-on.

Instead of erecting another "authority" in which we can naively put our trust I think it is preferable for individuals to educate themselves (one of the purposes of this thread). The market seems to be flooded with self-help solutions, of which DWB appears to be one - something which I think is both dangerous and a misleading representation of what Vajrayana Buddhism actually is. We may well have to trust the dentist, mechanic, or politician to fix things in situations where we lack knowledge or the means to do it for ourselves, but in the case of personal spirituality, this deferral to higher (worldly) authorities will always be open to such abuse.

For me, this quote from Sun seems insightful,

"I left the cult (and I really think now he and his mixed-up teachings are a dangerous fraud, not deliberate, malicious or knowingly misleading, in fact I think good intention is there, but because of his arrogance, lack of humility, sexual prowlings, add up to an explosive mix).
I think Lama Ole actually believes his own rhetoric; he's not intending to lead people astray, he thinks he's a spiritual teacher doing his best to spread the dharma, but because he has not done the work necessary to be a genuine spiritual illuminator and leader, he is confused by his own arrogance --- which is refuelled by the devotion of his students."

...and this shows exactly why Nydahl is neither practicing authentic Vajrayana, nor able to provide adequate "self-help" guidance. In a perfect world Nydahl would be standing on a street corner spouting his well-intentioned rhetoric while passers-by felt sorry for his confusion. For me the issue is less about his vision or his intentions, and more about his potential followers' naive and unrealistic expectations. In this age of the internet with the free exchange of information, there seems to be far less of an excuse for people to be duped in this way.