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Posted by: terry huffman ()
Date: March 23, 2003 11:00AM


Would you be willing to discuss what led to your change of mind regarding channeling, and the history which led up to your post?
Thank you.
Terry Huffman

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Posted by: corboy ()
Date: March 23, 2003 10:39PM

interested in it. But from what I have read and heard, it can be for real (as well as easily faked), and even when it is for real, it is a high risk venture.

I'd rather stick with Buddhist practice any day. Channelling is just a distraction from the Big Picture. The only people who are competant to do it are all dedicated to a religious vocation in which their primary loyalty is either to a loving or to service for all humanity. And, without exception, these are mature adults who have made themselves accountable to a high standard of ethics and who never flaunt their talent for commercial purposes, but only use it in emergency situations, after consulting with colleagues.

These genuine channellers warn that their vocation puts a heavy strain on their bodies, and they can expect a shortened life expectancy. Persons with thin body types and nervous tempraments should not do channeling at all, because their health will break down much sooner, and they are at special risk of their sanity being compromised.

Channelling is not necessary for a spiritual practice and can, in many ways, be a dangerous distraction because its just another set of toys for the ego to get lost in.

One Tibetan lama said 'There are methods of 'dream yoga' that enable a person to remember his or her past lives. But we do not consider that very important. It is how you practice wisdom and compassion in this life that makes the difference.'

from 'The Great Dragon's Fleas' by Tim Wright

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Posted by: silvercat ()
Date: March 23, 2003 11:45PM

With the same respect, Mr Huffman, I have no intention to discuss the issue nor to tell my history.

No matter what I could say, your answer will be "I only believe what I can see". And I understand this point of view, because is mine, too. There is no point in discuss with you what I have seen and suffered: it´s a bare fact.

But let me share with you a few opinions about channeling, cults and the rest of the varmint:

1.- Behind all of this "new age" stuff there are a lot of people unsatisfied with our society, maladjusted and a lot of rabble trying to make a buck with people´s ingenuity. True. But there are too a few "genuine" sources that are the origin of this social phenomenon and the force that give it coherence and sense. True.

2.- All of these original sources are individuals that anyway, are convinced they have been contacted with non-human entities; and follow their instructions without question them. True. And even if those "entities" show themselves with different identities, all of them seems sharing the same knowledge and the same goals. True.

3.- These entities are innocuous, because its single power is communicate with us. FALSE. Every one of them have got the wide range of paranormal phenomenon. From force people to commit suicide or assassination to create "tulpas" in the fashion of ghosts or UFO´s. From telekinesis to tought transference. And they use their powers exactly in the best way to achieve their goals.

4.- Science can give us a good explanation: these entities are scissions from the medium´s unconscious. PUERILE. No scholar has psychoanalyzed one of them. These entities have got their own culture, their own society and history, and show an intelligence higher than the host (and the scholars).

5.- The method used nowadays could be new, but they aren´t. They have been with us from the very beginning of the history. Their powers can be studied, their activities traced, their goals deduced and their nature revealed. But science consider this simply a fringe phenomenom. And forget that there is no small enemy if you give him the back. Chances are you were stabbed to death.

So that´s my opinion. Madness or a bad joke?. It´s up to you. You have got the clues, so discover yourselves the truth. Because if another person would told you, you could never believe it.

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Posted by: richardmgreen ()
Date: March 27, 2003 10:24PM


Originally posted by richardmgreen
I've never had contact with deceased people like my grandparents or Shlomo Carlebach, although I've had dreams where I think about them.

Once I had a dream about my Uncle Abe where his soul "came to me" right before he died. He was asking for permission to live.
Since he was influential in getting me to be involved with orthodoxy and since it turned out so bad, I basically told him that he had to die.

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Posted by: corboy ()
Date: April 03, 2003 11:35PM

This URL will take you to an online book Call No Man Master: In Praise of Teachers but Wary of Gurus by Joyce Collin-Smith


Mrs. Collins-Smith worked with a variety of groups and teachers for 50 years, a good number of whom studied/channelled psychic powers. Her experiences are fascinating--and full of cautionary lessons.

1) Some of her best loved teachers became overwhelmed by psychic energies, or they were so eager to learn esoteric 'secrets' that they fell victim to channellers who had some talent but were also greedy. Rodney Collins, an Ouspensky/Fourth Way teacher was desperate to learn psychic information and in Mexico he fell under the sway of a psychic medium. The woman had some talent, but was not infallible. 'Mema' eventually acquired such influence over Rodney and his wife that she persuaded them to marry their teenaged daughter to Mema's son, which ensured that her son would inherit the Collins family fortune. Rodney's sanity eventually loosened, and he died in an accident. Mema inherited a priceless library from Collins, and she let it deteriorate. Ouspensky himself appears to have been harassed by psychic entities and suffered some personality deterioration as a result of his Fourth Way studies.

All too often students of the Fourth way, (both legitimate and bogus groups) find themselves haunted and harassed by psychic/occult phenomena, when all they intiatially wanted was to learn meditation and understand themselves better. Many people would probably avoid any involvement with Fourth Way work (whether legit or bogus) if they were honestly told, up front: 'This seems at first a path of self knowledge and self refinement, but eventually becomes a path of psychic power.' A correspondant on one of the Google listserves studied at a legimate Gurdjeiff school and found himself overwhelmed with psychic energies and entities. His teachers could not help him. He abandoned Fourth Way studies and was lucky to find an unusually sympathetic psychiatrist who worked out an appropriate therapeutic program for him. But the man reported sadly 'Raising psychic energy is not the same as spiritual work.' A Benedictine monk replied, 'Orthodox monastics have been telling us this for thousands of years.'

2) Mrs Collins-Smith then studied a method of psychic work taught by Pak Subhud, a renowned Indonesian medium. Energies definitely were roused by the work, but Collins-Smith eventually suspected that the energy served no higher purpose. Worst of all, it made most of the students so horny that many of them wrecked thier marriages and jumped into affairs. Collins-Smith herself became infatuated with a man who lived nearby and only her commitment to her marriage saved her from acting out the energy that she was channelling. Then, she learned that Pak Subud's wife, Ibu, was stealing items from stores, and when told this was improper behavior in England, her attitude was, she was the guru's wife and could do what she liked!

Lesson: Psychic virtuousity doesnt translate into ethics. Two, you have to ask what higher purpose is served by channeling such energy. Too many people 'collect' paranormal experiences, the way others collect postage stamps. or coins Unlike the stamp and coin, collectors, these psychic adventurers often consider themselves better people than the common run of humanity, and some believe they can ignore conventional ethics.

Finally, Collins-Smith spent 8 to 10 years meditating with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. He impressed her with his ability to read her mind when they first met. She was so busy being impressed that she forgot that mind reading, when done without a person's permission is psychic rape and that anyone who plays these games is dangerous. From her descriptions, M was a psychically powerful man. But she eventually realized that 1) he created false credentials for himself as a guru--he actually left his monastery because he failed to become its guru's sucessor, which meant his key motivation was frustrated ambition and power lust. 2) His TM meditation was not an ancient method, but something he created himself, for his own gain 3) when people began having psychological breakdowns from the meditation practice M did not care. He used people and disposed of people in the same thoughtless manner in which we use toilet paper. 4) he began teaching dangerous psychic/magical techniques to an inner circle of senior students.

Collin-Smith followed M for years because he had psychic powers and his TM gave her bliss experiences. In the long run, Collin-Smith discovered that M served no larger purpose. He wanted to teach the whole world his TM method, but that method led only to blissful passivity. The author saw how she and nearly all the long term TM students became passive, less able to function responsibly in life. Persons who had been productive artists found their creativity dried up--all they cared about was meditation and bliss. They didnt care about the welfare of their neighbors and became bliss junkies.

THe lesson is, psychic powers and bliss mean nothing and can actually distract people from the Big Picture. And legitimate spiritual teachers have all warned that psychic powers and channelling are, at best distractions and at worst can be dangerous. You dont know who or what is trying to get your attention. The only safeguard is you must have a commitment to a system of ethics and to a belief system that is rooted in love, wisdom and service to all humanity--not something that isolates you from humanity and feeds your craving for power or desire to be special. Others wish to avoid personal pain and suffering in their lives and are attracted to bliss experiences--this too is a dead end.

Mrs Collin-Smith doesnt say so, but my hunch is that she had a tendency all her life to be curious about psychic powers, which made her quite vulnerable to following teachers whose paths were dazzling dead ends. She emerged from TM unable to write novels, something she'd previously enjoyed and been successful at. She was depressed for years, came close to suicide, and only by accident learned how to anchor her mind and body in the real world and thus recover from TM.

Pak Subhud, Ibu Subhud and Maharishi were psychically powerful, but they were also greedy people, trapped in their human egos. They could not link thier powers to any purpose that was greater and more benevolant than human ego. All they could do was distract and deaden their followers.

I am not a Christian these days, but St Paul said it well:

'Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels and have not love, I am a clanging gong and a tinkling cymbal..'

If you dont love and care about the people you meet every day, psychic powers mean nothing and may even bring you harm.

A few psychics have linked their powers to a vocation of love and service--and that's the only way those powers can be safetly used in this world. These people will tell you that their psychic talents are not fun, they are are heavy responsibility. And, they try to avoid publicity.

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Posted by: gbv23 ()
Date: April 11, 2003 06:06AM

Not sure of the exact difference between being a channel versus a medium but mediums are the ones who work with those who were once living and now dead. Channeled entities may or may not have been alive on earth but typically they are not "merely" departed humans.

Personally I have great faith in the Seth books of Jane Roberts. She simply published the material and let people read it. She did not become a charismatic leader or public figure.

That being said, I've always been a little suspicious of both JZ Knight and Elizabeth Clare Prophet precisely becasue they seemed to make a big deal of the whole thing and start vaugely cult-like organizations. This has not happened with the Seth material. (notice which groups are include on this site)

I also like the Urantia book and I see it as compatible with the Seth stuff. Since it was channeled in the 1930's (though not published until the 50's) it used existing language and concepts for the audience of the time (a more hierarchical version of metaphysics which still dispels some of the distortions of the judeo-christina traditions)

I know that both of these sources have some groups associated with them and I'm sure they have their share of "kooks" but I still think the material is valid.

I don't really believe in malicious entities to any great extent. I think there maybe some such spirits which feed on the negative emotions of humans but overall I believe in a safe universe.

So my final answer is that some channeled material can be useful but one should be wary and not blindly trust information simply becasue it claims to be from som "higher" source.

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Posted by: urantiagate ()
Date: April 22, 2003 08:16PM


I would just like to clear up the idea that The URANTIA Book is channeled. By all accounts the text was physically materialized, however the book states that the use of the mind of a human was involved in the transaction.

It appears to me that his mind was used as a word processor, and then the text was more-or-less printed out into the physical world.

There is a channeling movement which has attached itself to the Urantia movement, called the Teaching Mission, which I believe is an operation of the intelligence/security community of the USA. You may check out why at []

although I don't go into a lot of detail about the Teaching Mission there, but about other channelling aspects of this apparent operation.

And for those who may be interested I have found connections between the CIA's MKULTRA and the channeling of A Course In Miracles (ACIM), see at: []

I am interested in comparing the actual experience inside the head with "other world entities" in Teaching Mission, Rael & Clonaid (they receive telepathic messages from aliens), and New Age channeling -- or any other kind. Any help in finding descriptions by such channelers would be greatly appreciated.


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Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: April 22, 2003 08:39PM

The links and statement above demonstrate the kind of conpiracy subculture that exists on the Internet.

It seems like almost anything can be attributed to some government conspiracy and the CIA is a favorite tar baby.

Jonestown was somehow a "CIA MK-Ultra mind control experiment," according to one such conspiracy theory.

Right. Scientology seems to like that one.

Such theories appear to be based upon a deeply paranoid view of the world.

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Posted by: richardmgreen ()
Date: April 22, 2003 09:29PM


Such theories appear to be based upon a deeply paranoid view of the world. [/B]

I think a lot of the cults that exist, including the ones I inadvertantly got involved in, are more focused on "fighting the enemy" than on promoting any good they claim they have.
In the Hickman cult, they were patrolling the church grounds with guns. Who was really after them? Lubavitch or the JDL? I don't think so.
A lot of hate groups are also based on conspiracy theories.
They're paranoid of anyone outside the group.

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Posted by: urantiagate ()
Date: April 22, 2003 10:45PM

Hi Moderator!

In an hour and a quarter you were able to draw such a determination of myself and my work. I suggest what you have done is merely to present an argumentum ad homenim. You brand what you disagree with "paranoid" (obviously ideas are not 'paranoid' but people are. Is such flaming allowed here? I am shocked.).

The fact is that conspiracies have existed throughout history and it would be surprising if they did not exist today. Furthermore, there is some documentation on record which shows US government interest in creating "cults". The "Santa Fe Document" was drafted in 1980. It says, among other things:

"Certain sects were created by psychological warfare specialists . . . ."

The Santa Fe Document was an extension of the policy expressed in the Rockefeller report:

"In order to win the battle for hegemony (control) over conscience, it is necessary to begin by exposing Latin America to the influence of the fundamental values of the American way of life, doing so through controlling the traditional apparatus of socialization of civil society: the Family, the School, and the Church."

Both of these concerned mainly Latin America, but they do show intent.

It appears that you are in the catbird seat, however, for offering immediate and unthinking rebuttals. That certainly helps to limit the free expression of ideas. By all meand stop any intelligent discussion along these lines by labeling the concepts "paranoid".

Also, the Urantia movement is not a "cult" by almost any definition, however the teaching Mission is a cult within it. I am merely an indepentant person working on my own, and not part of any cult or subculture. In fact I am almost the only person presently commenting on the use of "artificial telepathy" against religion.



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