XKRISHNA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > How can one not listen to or read through the
> > above transcripted lectures, be they private or
> > public, and not see a completely fanatical cult
> > leader?

Only somebody who is thoroughly psychologically conditioned and heavily invested, or else of very low intelligence, could not see that. In my opinion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/25/2023 02:23AM by XKRISHNA.

Like, I am sure that Tulsi Gabbard is not a complete moron. She is an Army officer and former Congressperson. She's not a dummy; she's not an idiot. She has an above-average IQ. But she is thoroughly psychologically conditioned and heavily invested in Chris Butler, and so I understand why she, for example, stays with him and SOIF. Either that, or she's even more cynical and opportunistic than he is.

Well, there's no question that intelligent people get involved in cults. And there's definitely no question that Tulsi gabbard is a intelligent person. There's no question that Chris Butler is an intelligent person. I don't think that all they espouse is some kind of complete and utter trash even though I may say so in hopes that people will see through much of it as being so. But at the end of the day, there is good stuff you can extract from all of these groups that can act as solid foundations for living a good and harmonious life without subscribing to a lot of the minutiae of b*******.

I think that's really at the heart of anyone's spiritual journey, learning to extract the usable aspect of it and then casting away the rest as purely subjective, often fictional and definitely fanatical belief systems that serve one very little.

To give you an estimate of how many followers butler has (most have never met him or know much beyond some filtered idea they are fed by his disciples) you can look at Butler's wifes (ex wife?) Instagram and probably half that number.

There's no question butler liked to tease and make fun of followers in front of a bunch of people at gatherings or letters he commanded be read out loud at centers.

One can definitely justify this as perhaps the guru trying to Humble a disciple, or teach some kind of universal lesson etc. I really don't know what you call it other than bullying and a sort of locker room jock behavior. Butler often used vulgarity to condemn individuals or groups of people. These were often sweeping generalizations with little more than his bias at work. He also seemed to be fond of finding fault and criticizing and really going on and on and on about various people or groups of people. Continuing to try to elicit cheap laughs from his followers or simply seem to be enjoying himself talking negatively about people. From a small highly controlled group, or cult perspective, it definitely created an aura of US versus THEM and a constant kind of paranoia, anxiety and Neurosis surrounding anything outside the group. And the public criticism of disciples simply functioned as a type of excommunication.

Butler claims to be concerned about children being exposed to things like pornography or drugs or any number of things considered less savory, but the fact of the matter is is that I had never heard as much graphic descriptions of homosexual and heterosexual Acts, explicitly and vulgar, then I did as a young child in Butler's presence and trickling out to his disciples. Honest to god, I had been largely ignorant or had very little concern, let alone visuals of sexuality until I became a Hare Krishna in Butler's group. Images of big breasted goddesses and all manner of sexually tense scenarios including things like Shiva busting a nut and all sorts of sages coming on themselves because they see Fish copulating and things like that. Really. And as mentioned here before, there was a video circulating by Tulsi gabbard's father, Mike gabbard that was supposedly an anti-homosexual campaign that followed a bunch of gay people who had AIDS and there was literally footage in the video of men having sex, so yeah, I really don't know what Butler was hoping for or expecting about a bunch of his brahmachari becoming gay or sexually active, like his own stepson visiting prostitutes.

I just remember things always being very hush-hush in these groups and even to this day you'd be hard pressed to find many Butler devotees who just have open social media accounts. I honestly have not talked to probably a single person from my youth except the handful of guys who actually left the cult. The rest of them live highly reclusive lives with a very controlled lifestyle and group of people that they have been hanging out with pretty much since birth. Very few of them have branched out in any meaningful way. Those who have left the cult have definitely, and my view, lived a very enriching and exciting life. They have found their voices and talents and ultimately, themselves in a much much deeper way than any time in the cult had ever afforded them. Basically, these types of religions often make you the kind of guy in the room who can only talk about one thing and bore everyone to death. Not to mention they feel like they're know it alls and you can barely get a word in edgewise before they're calling you offensive or a demon.

XKRISHNA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Like, I am sure that Tulsi Gabbard is not a
> complete moron. She is an Army officer and former
> Congressperson. She's not a dummy; she's not an
> idiot. She has an above-average IQ. But she
> is thoroughly psychologically
> conditioned and heavily invested in Chris Butler,
> and so I understand why she, for example, stays
> with him and SOIF. Either that, or she's even
> more cynical and opportunistic than he is.

It's an interesting arrangement of mutual acceptance. Tulsi is famous. She received no less than $21 million in financial support for political activities - campaigns (FollowTheMoney). She is not bothered by sponsors such as Planned Parenthood (350,000 abortions per year). Her "guru" apparently didn't mind the money either since she received these subsidies from PP three times. Money do not stink. Money does not drip with the blood of aborted fetuses. From hunting companies, etc. As you can see, when it comes to money, power or fame, the "guru" is very happy and proud of her...

Or the entire Hawaiian SIF system as assessed by Japa das Joseph Bismark. "He is doing great service to Prabhupada." But somehow no one asks about this "business model" which is not very consistent with Garuda Purana...

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cult. The rest of them live highly reclusive lives
> with a very controlled lifestyle and group of
> people that they have been hanging out with pretty
> much since birth. Very few of them have branched
> out in any meaningful way. Those who have left the
> cult have definitely, and my view, lived a very
> enriching and exciting life. They have found their
> voices and talents and ultimately, themselves in a
> much much deeper way than any time in the cult had
> ever afforded them. Basically, these types of
> religions often make you the kind of guy in the
> room who can only talk about one thing and bore
> everyone to death. Not to mention they feel like
> they're know it alls and you can barely get a word
> in edgewise before they're calling you offensive
> or a demon.

This transformation can be traced. Realization of spiritual "competition" in Hawaii in 1969, joining ISKCON through "shaving heads as a symptom of submission", getting burned in ISKCON, proposal of a watered-down "ISKCON" and gradual "materialization", Hawaiian properties, costs of maintaining them and political involvement plus mega -ecumenism in the glue of marijuana promotion, etc. etc.

Please note: Ex SIF Members Facebook page has at least 3 hard-core hare krishna fanatics on there. These are all folks that can dramatically derail our efforts. Please be careful where you post and who you trust. Happy 2024!

Sure, It's good to inform group members.

Hare Krishnas have a teaching which says that milk which is touched by the lips of a snake, is just as poisonous as the venom itself. In other words: hearing some piece of truth from a person who is insincere or has impure motives, is just as toxic as hearing a lie. This is taught in order to impress upon the devotees the importance of being careful of who one learns from, but it's also a good piece of teaching to twist if you want to manipulate somebody into listening to no one other than yourself. Teaching from verses like BG 9:30 or SB 1:17:22 when discussing the topic of institutional abuses in ISKCON, justifying things from those verses and ones like them, is like saying that it's a privilege to be abused, if your abuser is an ISKCON devotee. But most institutional devotees are impervious to being reasoned with, on the basis of the venom/milk principle explained above. They will not hear anything, unless it's being taught to them by the guy in saffron or else one of their "authorities." You could tell them something that is true, but unless it's coming from an "authorized" source they will not process it. And it's very frustrating to me. It makes it impossible to reason with the ISKCON true believer.

Did, or does, Butler teaching something similar (or even identical) to this, please?

Similar, but activists or SIF members when pointing out discrepancies say that a pure devotee - acharya - can change the detailed instructions. Here, in turn, representatives of other sangas distinguish sanatana-dharma from naimittika-dharma - a concept unknown in SIF/SoI. Either way, if we firmly accept the narrative-science that milk can be poisoned by snake venom and this is true with the message, then we need to scrupulously verify it with the scriptures - sastra. According to SIF, the verification of "guru" is according to scriptures, God in the heart - Paramatma and something else. According to other sangas - according to sadhu, shastra and something else. So SOI omits "sadhu" because there would be a problem of "guru"/"sadhu" from other groups.

However, in the case of SIF/SOI activists, when confronted with inconsistencies with "sastra", they say that it is an extreme insult to use scriptures to criticize. However, writings such as Hari-Bhakti-vilasa or Gaudiya-Kantahara - are not included in the canon allowed by Chris Butler.

So you can see the methodical cutting out of authorities other than Chris Butler.

Of course, there is also the question of Parampara. And here another problem begins, because high in Parampara there is... Narada Muni. Narada Muni did not initiate women. Which undermines all initiated women in all sanghas either it should be said that they do not belong to Parampara or "initiating women" is not in the category of sanatana-dharma but naimitthika-dharma - detailed instructions/rules.