Culthusiats, devotees are not immuned to such attacks. Be it mental or spiritual.
I would truly be careful about the black magic rumor.
There are things that my heart rejects as false info and this is one them.
Hyperdimentional attacks are well known in some communities.
It is hard to know why and how it happens to some.
But I doubt that butler has anything to do with it personally.
I just know that anything very negative that happens to is blamed on offenses.
If someone looks at guru the wrong way and they get hit by a bus, guru will get the credit for it.
You know. The usual suspect: Offenses.

Run Forest Run, thanks for being so open about your experiences as a kid.
It is quite amazing that you were able to bounce back.
Do you remember the “if I come back, I wish to be a fly in the home of the pure devotee”.
How do they come up with that stuff?
I am grateful I had the freedom to try and find what truly resonated with me.
This is something I will never take for granted.
The process often pushes one to blame themselves. We add more and more weight on our backs.
I hope that the life you have now will make up for those harsh years.
You are a very strong soul.

I think it's fair to say that we all will likely have to agree to disagree that magic is real. Sadly, but everyone got their thing.

The rhetoric of slavery to god/gods devotees runs very deep in the cult. The idea that we will take birth as a fly in stool if the lord wishes is obviously meant as a sign of humility. Acknowledging that god can kick you and you will come back like a dog to his feet is a major component of such a faith. The idea of base level pointless humility and ego subjugation is paramount to such a philosophies success. If a person sees themselves as an imperfect, low, unworthy slave, there is nothing to ever complain about if life kicks you in the ass repeatedly. Low expectations, fewer disappointments. This can be of service as a casual observation at times, but I think we can all agree there is no need to play the role of the humble man. Nature humbles us all at various times in life without needing to grovel and pray for it. It comes on it's own accord. One need not be a Franciscan monk and whip oneself with leather straps to humble thyself. Bhaktisiddhanta would also say things like "Beat the mind with a shoe in the morning and a broom in the evening". Pointless phrases that do literally nothing to nurture positivity and happiness. Viewing ones mind as some enemy, fearing being in the same room as ones mother and sister as he did, this is fanatical religious paranoia and neurosis, not devotion or love of anything.

I had been in assorted gaudiya groups and never witnessed a single siddhi, mystic or magic effects, powers or so on. If I did, I may have even stayed. Call me shallow but I'm a sucker for magic tricks. Well, real magic tricks. If Butler could grow lotus flowers where he walked, I would eat his toenails for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

As far as Politics and the socio/religious/political climate in India that gave shape to Gaudiya Vaishnavism, there is actually much of this that has historically shaped any cult. In many ways, cults are born out of social-political upheaval. The Gaudiya sect is no different. There is also cross cultural religious influence. Islam, Sufiism and Buddhist ideas helped shape assorted bhakti cults as well. In fact, Islam has many devotional sub-sects that practice Chanting and dancing. Rumi wrote extensively about the idea of loving god like a lover etc. These ideas were also explored by the Alwars and many groups in Tamil Nadu. Chaitanya was influenced by these things. As were previous and subsequent devotional cults.

As far as Butler practicing or SIF promoting yoga nidra/psychic sleep etc, these are in my opinion irrelevant issues as I believe all they teach is hokie pokie bullshit. But if we are to dwell on it siddhantically, sure, it's not in line with any gaudiya teachings, but then again neither was Brahman thread diksha and that did not stop Saraswati from instigating such a practice. In fact where is the prescription for chanting any fixed number of rounds on Japa beads? Or the purpose and use of a sikha? Many rituals and practices in the Gaudiya faith were created on a whim.

As fas a Butler having the power of hypnosis: Hypnosis is not a "siddhi". Hypnosis is a psychiatric practice that works on some and not on others. It has to do with what areas of the brain that are able to be activated by the mechanism of focusing/concentrating on the slow, steady voice of the person administering hypnosis. Many therapists have attempted to hypnotize me and I am not susceptible to hypnosis by professionals, but they obviously have many patients on whom it works. At the end of the day this is irrelevant to me simply because Butler or SIF does not use Yoga Nidra or hypnosis as anything more than a relaxation technique. Using methods of breathwork and mediation to enter a peaceful state of mind is not a siddhi it's brain science and neurology. That's it. Nothing mystical about it. It's not like Butler was mind-controlling people to fly plains into buildings for him for fuck sake. At best he was controlling people to wash his pee-stained underwear 3 times with charnamrita.

For the record, Poland was very much in the dark about Butler's political ambitions, as Butler's political involvement was concerning America, not Poland. Though I am sure Polish devotees got involved in promoting Tulsi Gabbard as well and pretended to be American constitutes on various forums to give her support. I honestly do not think Butler cared much about the Polish missions. He never visited them and Vishnu das and Tapasya das spent little time with Butler. The missions there were largely the concoction of whatever they created, not some grand instruction from Butler. Butler's instructions were simple: Start a center, teach people mantra mediation and you are not the body and read gita. Oh, and start some businesses and send me money. If you can't do the later, I won't visit you. But keep chanting sheep.

Those close to Butler, personal servants, have vouched that the TV is on some news channel almost all day long at Butlers homes. Newspapers are strewn on the floor and he has an obsession to the point that if anyone touches his newspaper he will flip out on them. Baseball and Politics mixed with a bit of Gipi Bhava for good measure is Butler's MO.

If you went back in time and became a Gaudiya Math Member during the times of Saraswati thakur, you would see a mission filled with men petrified of their own shadow and living under the irrational dogam of their guru. They were following a man who gave himself Sanyas, who really never got diksha from Gaurakishor, was dismissive and often mean in his assessment of other gaudiya and vaishnava groups as inferior to his particular brand and odeaology. They were afraid of women. Even their own mothers and sisters. To make money and support the temples they begged from door to door. At one time Bhaktisiddhanta even said he was willing to serve meat at his temples to attract people. Bhaktisiddhanta had such a fanatical image of his father in his mind that he once admonished a senior babji when Bhaktivinode bowed to the baba. He told him, "Don't you know who my father is?! He is a Nitya Siddha!!". Whatever happened to humility and offering respect to everyone? Bhaktisiddhanta was not invited to any vaishnava debates and other religious leaders literally avoided him. So much for unity and brotherhood. They were scared of his totalitarian approach. I don't think the man had a silly bone in his body. He was stern, serious and by all accounts not a happy character. Both him and his father apparently shared a "vision" of the Chaitanya saints birthplace. The vision consists of a glowing mansion on the other side of the ganga. What a coincidence? What are the odds? Slim... nill.

If Butler every showed in his mannerisms that he was unsure of himself playing guitar it's because he was not skilled at playing the guitar, not because he lacked charisma or was unsure of his political leanings or lacked guru hutzpah.

As far as my conviction and determination to expose and show this cult for what it is, I can only say that it is partly driven by the fact that I feel I wasted a good chunk of my life in it, it ruined many relationships that should have been simple, easy and functionally beneficial and I just hate plain stupid. And there's a lot of that going on in these communities so I am trying to appeal to people's better judgment, common sense and rational thinking. I am not saying there is no god or science is king. Just use your head.

"If a person sees themselves as an imperfect, low, unworthy slave, there is nothing to ever complain about if life kicks you in the ass repeatedly. Low expectations, fewer disappointments."

It is also possible to develop massive arrogant pride as a compensation for extreme self- abasement -- the slave of Krishna feels superior to all those outside the sect.

Thats right.

A very observable trait in many gurus and followers. Interesting insight corboy.


corboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "If a person sees themselves as an imperfect, low,
> unworthy slave, there is nothing to ever complain
> about if life kicks you in the ass repeatedly. Low
> expectations, fewer disappointments."
>
> It is also possible to develop massive arrogant
> pride as a compensation for extreme self-
> abasement -- the slave of Krishna feels superior
> to all those outside the sect.

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would truly be careful about the black magic
> rumor.

Other events of a larger caliber were analyzed. And also the suspicious behavior of some SiF leaders.

> You know. The usual suspect: Offenses.

What is the difference whether someone consciously through practice, or through neglect or failure to follow the rules, attracts the action of hostile influence? or entities? Which science does not confirm but also does not question in general (despite the materialistic approach that being shapes consciousness through complexity - symptoms of life as a process - unstable thermodynamic states).


corboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "If a person sees themselves as an imperfect, low,
> unworthy slave, there is nothing to ever complain
> about if life kicks you in the ass repeatedly. Low
> expectations, fewer disappointments."

Compare to the words of Jesus - and your neighbor as yourself. So there is an element of accepting yourself as a divine creature and also with your fellow human beings. Without artificially lowering one's own worth, but also without exaggerating.

Let's say this can be defined as the final state and distinguish between the "lower than straw in the street" issue as a method of approaching and gaining grace - in this faith - from Sri Caitanya - an incarnation of God that will forgive even Jagai and Madhai.

In SiF, Madhai das was not forgiven by Jagad Guru. At least officially. And he was defending the original Caitanya mission.
>
> It is also possible to develop massive arrogant
> pride as a compensation for extreme self-
> abasement -- the slave of Krishna feels superior
> to all those outside the sect.

This is visible, for example, behind the official recruitment facade, e.g. on Facebook. The adoration of women for the leader - Midgett - is dominant, one can see an apparently benevolent attitude, but sometimes the veil falls and the behavior is angry. There is an element of a sense of superiority or a desire to impose control. So the bombardment with love ends when the lamb joins the herd, etc. This is where the worship of those higher in the hierarchy comes in.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2022 08:13PM by Culthusiast.

Corby, amongst butler’s followers you can find absolutely stellar souls.
Extremely humble but not doormats. Very respectful. Not feeeling superior to anyone…
A sincere devotee should not feel superior to others whatsoever.
If some do, it is a sign of fanaticism.
Those who come from solid, healthy upbringing, stable mental and emotional health, have an easiser time navigating the whole humility game.
The feeling of superiority may come at times from thinking that we had more knowledge, the absolute truth…
I had always been put down since childhood. So this practice made me even more of a doormat.
It increased my tolerance way too much to stand more abuse inside as well as outside of the group.
I feel that in the past years I have become a bit arrogant and overly assertive to make up for decades of crawling.
For all the times I had to stay silent in front of abuse or watch the abuse and not be able to say anything.
Also you are always expected to repress the negative emotions such as anger.
You cannot act according to your moral codes when you feel you must defend another person or stand for injustice.
You must just shut up. We had to accept the discipline and watch others be treated unfairly.
It is unfortunately part of my healing. I own it and am fine with being called out or misjudged.
I know that if I sound like an ass at times, it is not something I do on purpose or enjoy projecting a superiority vibe.
I can relate to what you are saying. But to me it is more a rebellion.
Learning humility and respect is a very good thing. It must come naturally as one grows spiritually. Not by being hit on the head all the time.
When I was a “devotee”, I aspired to be a better person. I did gain many good qualities.
Unfortunately I ended up in very wrong hands.
So I would say it is not easy to generalize. Every single person I met in the group is very different.
The only psychosis we have in common is fear of offenses and fear of saying or doing the wrong thing.
I personally see the flaws on the path of bhakti.
I will never say it is perfect in every way.
But we must consider that it was handed down to people who are not qualified.
If one goes to the psych ward, they are usually under the care of psych nurses and psychiatrists.
In butler’s group, you have mental patients who want to help cure the other patients.
I am one who analizes my own journey on the path. As well as my observations in general.
We, as ex butler members are all have unique and individual experiences.
And I guess we must learn to respect that.

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> component of such a faith. The idea of base level
> pointless humility and ego subjugation is
> paramount to such a philosophies success. If a
> person sees themselves as an imperfect, low,
> unworthy slave, there is nothing to ever complain
> about if life kicks you in the ass repeatedly.

This is one of the critical elements of misunderstanding. If egotism is a form of material bondage, artificially bending one's ego by internal and external force is not to get rid of this bondage, but to try by force to remove or simulate the symptoms of non-bondage.

Generally, in criminals, moderators often cause a disturbed sense of self-esteem. In order to rebuild the disturbed self-esteem, aggression appears, an attempt to dominate the fellow men.

Another example is the issue of forced sexual abstinence - the topic was raised several times here - quoted from "Message to disciples" by Haridasa Sastriji Maharaja, according to which the imposed sexual abstinence for people who cannot sublime redirect sexual energy will end up with mental disorders, and will come back with doubled force, manifesting perverse tendencies .


> the role of the humble man. Nature humbles us all
> at various times in life without needing to grovel
> and pray for it. It comes on it's own accord. One
> need not be a Franciscan monk and whip oneself
> with leather straps to humble thyself.

Yes, that from beginning seemed artificial, exaggerrated.

> I had been in assorted gaudiya groups and never
> witnessed a single siddhi, mystic or magic
> effects, powers or so on. If I did, I may have
> even stayed. Call me shallow but I'm a sucker for
> magic tricks. Well, real magic tricks. If Butler
> could grow lotus flowers where he walked, I would
> eat his toenails for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

> As far as Butler practicing or SIF promoting yoga
> nidra/psychic sleep etc, these are in my opinion
> irrelevant issues as I believe all they teach is
> hokie pokie bullshit.

On the other hand, there are reports of people from Poland who, through the practice of chanting or living in the center, experienced phenomena belonging rather to astanga-yoga or just yoga-nidra. There are such stories. Disturbances in the sense of time, OBE in sleep, etc. The air of life raised under the cover of the skull.

> For the record, Poland was very much in the dark
> about Butler's political ambitions, as Butler's
> political involvement was concerning America, not
> Poland. Though I am sure Polish devotees got
> involved in promoting Tulsi Gabbard as well and
> pretended to be American constitutes on various
> forums to give her support. I honestly do not
> think Butler cared much about the Polish missions.
> He never visited them and Vishnu das and Tapasya
> das spent little time with Butler. The missions
> there were largely the concoction of whatever they
> created, not some grand instruction from Butler.
> Butler's instructions were simple: Start a center,
> teach people mantra mediation and you are not the
> body and read gita. Oh, and start some businesses
> and send me money. If you can't do the later, I
> won't visit you. But keep chanting sheep.

These are the facts that I do not remember a single phone call for several years to any of the centers in Poland. I remember one possible telephone conversation - in Brodnica on the retreate and then Internet broadcast in 2011, I think. A bit of a goodbye. Symptoms as if Chris Butler was in the hospital or prison. On the other hand, appreciating the philosophy, efforts to convey values, etc. - the initiative in the post-communism era, it is difficult not to reject such an authority when learning about the lack of visiting children in the Philippines at the brahmacari school - where in Poland there was a certain pressure to travel. And then the reluctance to take responsibility. Even the Paramadvaita former Swami has visited the center in Berlin more than once, and the sanyasis manifested the desire to keep close contact with the students and educate them. So this is not defended, and ultimately - for those who accept this Vedanta and Gaudiya-kantahara system - such authority would have to be rejected.


> Those close to Butler, personal servants, have
> vouched that the TV is on some news channel almost
> all day long at Butlers homes. Newspapers are
> strewn on the floor and he has an obsession to the
> point that if anyone touches his newspaper he will
> flip out on them. Baseball and Politics mixed with
> a bit of Gipi Bhava for good measure is Butler's
> MO.

Incredible



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2022 08:42PM by Culthusiast.

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Corby, amongst butler’s followers you can find
> absolutely stellar souls.
> Extremely humble but not doormats.

Chris Butler later communicated in a disciplining mood that bad relationships or interactions were caused by both sides. What can be interpreted here is that an artificially humble attitude may provoke the aggressor and trigger negative phenomena.

In turn, returning to the gunas theory, or taking into account the level of spiritual advancement, it can be commented that a provocative attitude, psychological, will not provoke or seduce a spiritually strong person. In turn, other reactions will depend on the influence of these gunas.

So as you can see, "siddhanta" is inconsistent.

Coming back to eating nails, nowhere in the Bhagavad Gita is it written that disciple should eat the nails of a guru.

The basis of a disciple's relationship is drawing close to the guru, asking questions, and devoting service. On the part of guru tadana & lalana - affection and chastizement.

If the guru is a transparent medium, why eat nails? Well, they're kind of transparent ...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2022 08:38PM by Culthusiast.

Run Forst Run, what is magic anyway?
Also here we are talking about black magic, which is a totally different story and a very long one.
Look at me. I stayed because of the supernatural phenom from the start. It was not the only reason but it is what kept me hostage of blind faith.
You say you would have stayed if you had witnessed some siddhis.
butler has a few powers. He can produce holy food, water and sand.
Yes there is hypnosis going on for sure, but it is a mass hypnosis.
You know after my own experiences, I would not worship butler even if he pulls a lazarus trick on me.
I have learned to pay attention to the actions of a person alone.
I think actions speak louder than anything else.
I agree that on the path of vaishnavism , they take humility and battle with the mind to the next level.
One can very well survive this cult if they have strong personalities.
We had a very sweet young woman in our group. She was very fun to be around, super kind but very solid boundaries.
She gave a guy a class and then they had an attraction going on. She had intimate relations with the person.
He was interested in chanting, but super new to it.
She was a very serious student.
Next thing you know she was walking around with a baby bumbp. Not married. Obvious sign that she had broken the rules.
However she never answered to anybody nor walked around as though she was ashamed.
She had this very non threatening invisible boundaries and self confidence. Noone would have dared say anything to her.
I am sure if it had happened to me, I would possiby hide or walk with my head between my legs.
Entering a cultic setting can tell a lot about who we are. Our own weaknesses and the baggade we carry.
Not 2 people surf the waters of SoI the same way.
But then again, being forced to find survival strategies in a spiritual community is ridiculous.
I agree with you when it comes to that absolute paranoia in regards the opposite sex. If one is truly solid within themselves, what is there to fear?
Let us say if one is madly in love with their spouse, totally satisfied in every way, why would they cheat?
These people cannot even handle impure thoughts. This is maybe why they avoid such situations.