Run Forest Run, frozen nick who is not even an ex SoI member was quite clear as to how I come across: Holier than thou Iskcon fanatic.
You see, I find it absolutely amazing that someone who has not even been affected by butler directly uses such familiarities with me.
This forum is not a spiritual tourist attraction. It must be a safe place for those who have suffered in the hands of butler.
To judge me from the tone of my posts alone. Or from what I share in here is not really justified.
To have the audacity to analize my character as well as where I stand spiritually.
Tell me that I only know the path of krishna consciousness and that I have nothing else to compare it to.
Like hello! Excuse me? You have just come onto this forum to play agent smith with me or what?
How can anybody in here possibly know me, my heart, my spiritual journey…
It totally turned me off. I had to wonder how many others see me through the lenses of forzen nick in here but stay silent about it.
It cannot be shared by only one person.
And also I feel if such perosonal critics happen again, I will use a language that would surely get me banned. Better retrieve before it gets ugly.
I have an aversion against such chastizing attitude that feels like the dog pack dynamics of SoI.
I am who I am. Take it or leave it. Keep that non sense for devotees who like to go so low that they cannot distinguish abuse from love.
I may be in the worse place I have ever been too right now. So best protect my energy.
My experiences with this path may be way too fringe for here. I did my best to bring in the aspect of the supernatural. An aspect that has kept many slaves of krishna and absuive gurus.
Because this is how I was lured in and how I put up with all the crap for so long.
The deities made sure that I had full faith in their existence through the off the charts supernatural phenom.
I have been accused of holding on to this path. No sir. This path has been holding on to me like an ex who never leaves you alone even if you find a new love.
I have also had extreme attacks that were surely related to butler and his group.
Things that would surely make me pass for schizo but created the greatest suffering and lasted 5 full months.
If I did not have some training in other areas of spirituality, I would have possibly ended up in an utterly terrible situation.
I have seen other people get attacked in such pyschic ways as soon as they left.
Culthusiast has mentioned such attacks too on some devotees.
My realm and area of interest is the mystical and supernatural. I have surely not chosen this area, but it has chosen me. I also understand the human psyche quite well. Personality and mental disorders. Mine as well as others.
My assesment of this group is more on the metaphysical and psychological side.
I have studied that field very carefully. I have been dealing with it since childhood.
People see butler, I see the demonic forces that work through butler. And let me tell you that they mean business.
I see how he is being used to abuse others. His psyche is infested and his moral codes are not solid enough to be SOLELY a conduit for divinity.
Evil loves to hide in spiritual groups and destroy souls who strive to do the good and to improve themselves. Try to help humanity.
I am fighting the forces of evil and not just the person of chris butler who is an instrument and vessel.
Every time I post in here and expose butler, it comes with a price.
My reality and relation to the cult and krishna consciousness is more like a scifi movie than a spiritual journey.
I have gone way too deep and seen way too much to just look at what goes on on the surface.
Krishna consciousness and how people are hypnotized goes deeper than the charisma of the guru.
Just speaking of butler, the philosphy, the cult is like chasing my own tail.
And me going into these areas in here, feels like playing tennis against a wall.
It is more like a psychotic monologue.
It can only make me pass for either a lunatic or a massively arrogant person.
I know that my main intention is to help protect those who are being abused.
I will never forget the fact that we had to silently put up with our abuse and the abuse of others.
Those poor hostages are too attached to krishna and their god damn service to leave or say something.
Even if they kill me or sue me, I will still expose the evil that is infesting that group.
I, like Henri Jolicoeur have a great disgust in my heart for cult abuse and false prophets.
I said it before, I neither fear the demons nor the demigods. Same goes for the supreme personality himself.
Bring it on!
Sorry! Usual long post again. I will check in time to time to see what is up.
But when I lose trust, I can no longer be my authentic self. And I have lost my trust in feeling safe in this forum.
Once again much gratitude to all of you.

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It must be a safe place for those who have
> suffered in the hands of butler.

Don't take it that deeply personally. Your trauma is understandable, but it has to be overcome.

The experiences described in the forum are hard. Especially Ian Koviak - a child sent to "gurukula" by his own mother inspired by two later charismatic leaders in Poland, who have little empathetic incidents and performances in their achievements.

In order to understand this, one had to be in cult, accept narratives, understand or see the world, I would put "post-narcotic visions".LSD does that. Invest one's life, career, family, etc.


> I have seen other people get attacked in such
> pyschic ways as soon as they left.
> Culthusiast has mentioned such attacks too on some
> devotees.

> People see butler, I see the demonic forces that
> work through butler. And let me tell you that they
> mean business.

Particularly clear is the material, although unpleasantly called "butler-aids", where God is called "supreme anti*". Nevertheless, this material clearly shows either the symptoms of C. Bulter's mental illness or possession. Or maybe the effects of poisoning. Given the criminal history of his surroundings, this should come as no surprise.

> I have gone way too deep and seen way too much to
> just look at what goes on on the surface.

Once again the link and quote presented here earlier:

[sekty.pl]

Quote

It was getting worse from week to week. Robert stopped sleeping, refused food, stopped washing. All the time he said he was waiting for death, after all, he had lost contact with the god and the guru. He was in a state of panic, he wondered what would happen to him after he died, since he was burdened with such terrible guilt. In an act of despair, in December 1995, he agreed to a psychiatric examination. He was referred for observation at the Psychiatric Clinic of the Medical University. He escaped from there but was detained. After receiving a letter from the Institute ordering him to be treated, he agreed to stay in the hospital. He has been there on and off to this day.

The scale of bewilderment and repression is obviously deep, because the fruit is bad, but even today SiF leaders and activists continue their work:

[www.facebook.com]

"DON'T WASTE YOUR LIFE ON PSEUDO SPIRITUALITY"

Grandpa Midgett is talking to us ....



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2022 10:38PM by Culthusiast.

When I speak of a safe place, I am not referring to trauma alone.
I just wanted to make sure that chastisment does not become a norm on this forum.
I am not as fragile as I sound in here.
As I said it befre, we are all many sides to us.
Yes the spiritual trauma that has been installed in me, has affected me very badly but it is not the end of the world.
I see my passage at SoI as an infiltration and personal experience.
And as usual, I have been given the crap job. While others relish in their “ignorant bliss” of the holy name and dancing with the blue boy, I must swim in the infested waters of SoI and study their disgusting hidden secrets.
Thanks for the gift!
When it comes to butler, he has for sure been used to make many suffer and he has set a very bad standards for others.
Possession is the right word to describe someone who is not able to see that their actions are despicable.
Enough talking and venting. I must now sit down and think if I want to continue the job Rama Ranson has started or just let the whole thing go.
I will take a break from butler hellish planet and go into a deep reflection.
See if I will take on the mission of exposing them even more or let them be.
I need to be sure that I am guided by divine forces and not some trickster spirits that want me to play vigilante.
I must fistt be in a more balaced place before I take on a greater battle against them. In case I decide to do it.
For now, I have nothing of value to add.

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I need to be sure that I am guided by divine
> forces and not some trickster spirits that want me
> to play vigilante.


This is a high rung. Heavenly. A more down-to-earth "guidance" is expecting activists, praetorians, and SoI Sirs to abide by universal moral principles and the law. And bear the consequences of their actions.

Not sure if any of you have ever read this book: The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes

Really a great theory about consciousness. It's obviously just a theory but a bunch of it makes more sense than Butler ever will in a million years. Butler built his guru-ship on nothing more than psedo-science and mumbo-jumbo ideas mixed with mythology. He made fun of great thinkers, criticised other schools of thought and peddled mostly nonsense.

While we may never have a perfect view of reality, there is much rational ideas that have been put forth by great minds and people who don't spend their time hiding in Kailua in a tin-foil-lined cacoon having their personal servants wash their jocks. and that is enough for me to lend an ear to them rather than Butler.

[www.politifact.com]

One of many Gabbard statements she parrots based on what Butler feeds her to say. Yet once again, shes/he's wrong.

Butler used to have his followers fly to the mainland and feign a sickness to get medications for him and vaishnava dasi. That's some low manipulation, I mean pure devotional service.

Butler lectures as well as Bhaktivednatas are full of half truths, science sounding garbage and misinformation. His followers gobble it up then vomit it into the world on social media forums they troll in pure krishna consciousness.

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Truth wins,
> Thanks for this. Pretty much sums up butler's
> group and many other krishna groups in a nutshell.
> Those that do not fully leave usually experience a
> residual hold based on conditioning and excessive
> use of repetition in all cult activities.
>
> Important observations here that expose the
> preaching style of Saraswati and others after him
> following in his line of thought. A supposed high
> standard that creates an anxious and stressful
> setting.
>
> As an iconoclast who suffered in these groups in
> mental torment over pure fabricated fictions I
> make it a point to expose the dysfunctional
> dynamics at play in the whole package.
>
> Go love real things and serve in practical ways.
> Don't paint yourself into the illusions they
> peddle. It's one thing to accept a higher power
> and another to endlessly reinvent it to suit
> narratives and religious dribble.


Hey all. I really love and appreciate the honest discussion that takes place here. The exact details change as time passes, but the overarching themes are so similar. The dynamics of ISKCON in the 70s, SoI in the 80s, and so on still exist. I come from a Gaudiya community but want to protect my ability to speak openly.

RUN_FOREST_RUN, I've really benefited from reading your perspectives, informed by many years of experience. Your understanding of the philosophy is damn high and that's what gives the perspectives extra weight and relatability. It's one thing to be a homeless teenager who stumbles into a free vegetarian lunch, and kinda bounces around for 6 months before becoming estranged. It's another to be at an intimate sevak level, to be a pujari, traveled the world, sincere practioner and to be able to call it like it is.

This is a space for people to share their own experiences, and it doesn't exclude the well-meaning congregation members, reformers from within the movement, and so on. There are some great minds in the present day, who are aware of the stagnant loop that is the International Society for Krishna Conscious Nostalgia (oh those glory days... let's take LSD again and worship this murti). They try to reform it and give it a new package, and I'm not sure it can be totally reformed.

I'm very interested in how devotees really lose their own sense of self through TRULY surrendering to the process. Not observing it from afar, not occasionally going to a kirtan and feeling some boost, not merging it with polyamorous sex and mushrooms in Tulum, but really following the teachings as practiced in the present day. It's extremely Brahmanical and caste-like compared to the espoused unconditionality. I really question if devotees are better off when they dedicate many years of their life to this.

"If Krishna really loves you, he takes everything away..." - sure, this is a nice philosophical consideration. It's not so nice if you are left with no job in your 30s, no relationship skills, or a perception that everyone who is *not* a devotee is an evil karmi. 'With ease comes hardship and with hardship comes ease' -- this concept is in Islam as well and depending on your experience it can be leaned into in a negative way by the leaders. too.

I had the opportunity to truly look at this aspect of my life when I fully reintroduced animal foods into my diet. Veganism has its own cult-like aspects to it. All the ex-vegan stories on youtube are so similar and people have really been harmed by it. No longer would I self-flagellate and suffer from low energy, low motivation, digestion problems, low libido, ED, and just a general feminization. The vegans who really dive in lose their hair, their teeth, become pre-diabetic, and more. The panacea which prasadam is supposed to be isn't so physically healthy after all.

I, day by day, feel 'normal again', and I am cautious to enter environments that injured me in the first place. This includes restrictive diets, dogmatic belief systems, bhakti, as well as neo-spirituality which is extremely popular in the circles I frequent. We are at risk of bouncing from one dogma to another.

Genuine spiritual seekers can engage in a forum like this and maybe even practice bhakti on the side, to an extent. What is very detrimental is when these voices are silenced, banned, and gaslit.
I want to know what MLM shit DoTERRA is up to, I want to hear ex-muslim stories from people born into it, and I want to hear the genuine stories of bhaktas who "blooped".
I will make up my own mind how I continue to interact with those groups of people.

And Our Chinese Lady of Hawaii with object of her love and admiration.

[www.facebook.com]

All glories to 25 kitchen servants...

Quote

The #yoga teachings can be nicely explained by using the example of a car. The car is like your body, the driver of the car is your intelligence, and you (the spirit soul) are the passenger. The passenger has the ability to instruct the intelligence to drive the car where he or she wants to go.

And flowers? What about those f-ing flowers???



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2022 03:37AM by Culthusiast.

Fohr,

Thank you for your support and echo of some of my observations and thoughts over the years.

I am happy some connect with my views, but yes, we all must forge our own ideas in the fire of our honesty and rigor in understanding what all this is about.

Hi Fohr.

Thanks for posting.

Fohr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> "If Krishna really loves you, he takes everything
> away..." - sure, this is a nice philosophical
> consideration. It's not so nice if you are left
> with no job in your 30s, no relationship skills,
> or a perception that everyone who is *not* a
> devotee is an evil karmi. 'With ease comes
> hardship and with hardship comes ease' -- this
> concept is in Islam as well and depending on your
> experience it can be leaned into in a negative way
> by the leaders. too.

A lot of people have visited SIF / SoI Polska. People aren't stupid. They were open to spirituality but took notice of these matters. They tolerated, they watched. Many have gone away.

Just to recall a few examples. The narrative of spiritual equality was accompanied by other behaviors in practice. People were supposed to stay close to the centers. The so-called cult businessmen were able to communicate that since they run businesses for Krishna, the work provided in their business should be free. Not paid. This was accompanied by another narrative - in the case of reporting it to the leaders - "that they are businessmen, they must be like that". Khm ... But it is different in Polish law. There is a labor law that is supposed to at least in theory protect the rights of the employee.

There were cases - not uncommon - of not paying for work, even to the chronically ill.

Tulsi Gabbard makes beautiful political shows about equality etc. But in practice, people from outside the US who came to work were paid less by their Hawaiian friends. Why less? After all, they are devotees ... No. Business is business and in business there is no friendship and no spirituality.

But the other way? They didn't pay the devotees in the internet group for the work on the business website. They say that there has never been a distinction - which project is spiritual and which is business.

Then another point - the leaders and brahmacari who lived in the centers. The leaders were supported in one way or another - and they offered all life - but at one point Tapasya das stopped it. Where are they going to get the dentists' money? Cloth? A doctor. It was the other way around.

And not in accordance with the rules at all. At least the "bad Gaudiya Math". Where the president, treasurer and secretary were to be. They had to support the brahmacari.

There was also a story from the 90's where one of the young women gave all her time to help in one of the centers. Influenced by the "seriousness" narrative of one of the leaders. 24h a day. But when it was billing time, she was ordered to pay the bills. Which she could not pay without regular job and salary. At least some hours. She was gone. It was the main reason for leaving.


And the story of one "brahmacari" and "businessman" is cited here. Etiquette show. He was the passenger of another devotee. When they arrived to the businessman, he saw the poor man and asked according to the account "are you looking for a job?". Such a greeting. Such welcome. The passenger replied "it depends on how much you pay". The "businessman" was deeply moved ..

Anyway, if business is business, law is law. Notification, notification, claim, fine, charges. Law is law and business is business. Yoga is yoga and Vedanta is Vedanta. And vendetta is vendetta.

ps. Or another example. Poor brahmacaris who work, among others, on Wai Lana projects they came back with holes in pants.

Do you need a comparison? Here you are. In Poland, it was not uncommon for devotees to give others the best clothes out of concern.

Somehow, the Chinese Mother of Hawaii had apparently taken away such empathy, if at all those slaves had seen her ...

It is best to stay away from these spiritual propositions of SoI for another half of eternity.



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2022 12:41AM by Culthusiast.