Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Date: May 09, 2016 04:52AM

I do like how he appears to have penises painted down his arms.

Sick tats, bro!

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Date: May 09, 2016 05:51AM

From Corboy's above post:

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"This also becomes evident from the contention of Prabhupada, "in transcendance, notoriousness has the same absolute connotation as eminence." It is not surprising therefore to know that ISKON holds that "the yogi should be able when the occasion arises to reject even moral behavior to do what is necessary to serve Krishna." "A devotee in other words, can commit any evil because no action done for Krishna has any bad reaction."

Exactly, and we see a perfect example of this in Bodhayan Swami defending and obscuring Chris Butler's abuses by silencing his disciple (read: his property and his responsibility, Canada Girl has agreed to follow Bodhayan's direction. He directs her life, you hear her say it herself in our interview.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/09/2016 05:54AM by Rama Das (slave name).

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Prabhupada "Later, when we are more powerful"
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: May 09, 2016 10:48AM

Additional citations for Prabhupada's statement that "in transcendance, notoriousness has the same absolute connotation as eminence."

[www.google.com]

The Ecstacy of Madhavendra Puri

by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada
Jun 1, 1973 | A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Srila Prabhupada's Lectures, Volume-01 Number- 56

[www.backtogodhead.in]

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The Deity Gopinatha is notorious as a thief because He once stole condensed milk for the sake of His beloved devotee. In the transcendental relationship between the Absolute Godhead and His devotees, both the devotees and God Himself take the risk of serving each other at all costs. In transcendence, therefore, notoriousness has the same absolute connotation as eminence.

The story behind Gopinatha's being notorious as Ksiracora ("the milk thief") was long before narrated to Lord Caitanya by His spiritual master, Isvara Puri, and the Lord wanted to repeat the story to His followers.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: dharmabum ()
Date: May 09, 2016 03:38PM

The Hare Krishna movement also insists that in order to establish a proper relationship with Krishna it is absolutely imperative to accept for oneself a guru. The devotee’s initiation implies that he accepts the guru as his spiritual master and agrees to worship him as God; on the guru’s side it means that he takes on the karma, or sinful deeds, of his disciples on himself. P. 50
Modern Godmen in India: A Sociological Appraisal, Volume 1
By Uday Mehta, Akshayakumar Ramanlal Desai

R: Why is he interested in protecting Chris Butler?

A: Because saintly people only see the good in others.

I am trying to tell you that he didn't do anything except ask me to take care of my kids and chant. I am the only one asking you to do anything.

Sounds like a threat to me, Hare Krishna style.

There are many cases like Canada Girl that authorities should start looking into seriously about religious cults’ diabolical power over followers.

This is 2016. Free Speech will stay an integral part of globalization; that will not go away. What will go away are vestiges of the past like unquestioned truth, bigotry, domination, exploitation, inequality and other manipulative practices that unfortunately are religious by nature. If you’re on the side of truth, you have nothing to fear, but if you propagate questionable practices and ideology, be ready to get challenged and defend them the most rational way. Not only you’ll be questioned on the world stage, the audience is global and transcript is permanent.

Gone are the days when the indefensible can get a pass as an arcane precept of religion.

There’s just too much victimization that society keeps failing to address; thanks to the Internet, cases are well documented and access is convenient and free. If you’re a Hare Krishna guru, chances are not as good that you’ll be seen as a good guy as compared to a few decades ago.

For Bodhayan Swami:
To capitulate to and endorse an utterly evil practice of godbrother Jagad Screwball purely because of religious affiliation you will be hounded by truthseekers relentlessly. A guru is not as hallowed anymore as offending decency nowadays. If you choose to cling to a dying tradition, the free world does not effing care. There may still be people who believe in guru’s infallibility, but the free world rules. If you don’t side with free speech, go sink like a stone. Your time is long gone.

This stuff tears me to pieces; a lot of people had gone the same situation as Canada Girl. Unfortunately, the laws and the social services would not care to listen; anything that involves religious groups, the system would rather stay away, unless there are physical bruises. They fail to understand that the stress and psychological bruises are 100 times more, especially with children.

It’s obvious, Canada Girl suffers from “Battered Wife Syndrome”. The fact that she switches from one guru to another is a clear sign.

Gurus are egomaniacs. I pray, Canada Girl and her five children are safe.

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Butler's guru, Prabhupada and rejection of moral behavior
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: May 09, 2016 09:06PM

To make sure of sources, I checked to find the origin of the quotation attributed to Prabhupada, Chris Butler's guru.

According to Ninan, in Developments in Hinduism, page 51, Srila Prabhupada said
"in transcendance notoriousness has the same absolute connotation as eminence" is quoted in primary sources - including Prabhupada's own magazine, Back to Godhead.

--this statement by Prabhupada is to be found in other sources.

However, the next clause Ninan attributes to Prabhupada " It is not surprising therefore to know that ISKON holds that "the yogi should be able when the occasion arises to reject even moral behavior to do what is necessary to serve Krishna." -- here is the primary sources for this statement - again, Prabhupada in his own Back to Godhead magazine.

[www.backtogodhead.in]

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Now, Arjuna was asked by Krsna to kill, but that was an extraordinary circumstance. Since the Supreme Personality of Godhead was personally present on the battlefield, all who died there in His presence were liberated from the material world. So there is no question of violence. Krsna gave them the greatest gift.

Nonviolence, as also humility, tolerance, etc., is not meant to be taken as an isolated aspect of moral behavior. It is one facet of a transcendental process of purification from material contamination. Part of that material contamination is the mode of goodness; so the yogi should be able, when the occasion arises, to reject even moral behavior and do what is necessary to serve Krsna.

Devotees are usually vegetarian, but if they must eat a dog to stay alive to serve Krsna, then they will eat a dog. It is not recommended to eat dogs, however, and similarly it is not recommended to be violent in a bodily sense.

Actually it is possible to become completely liberated from attachment to sense gratification only after the point of being elevated to the material mode of goodness. Suta Gosvami says in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, "As soon as loving service is irrevocably fixed in one's heart, the effects of nature's modes of passion and ignorance, such as lust, desire and hankering, disappear from one's heart, and one becomes fixed in the mode of goodness which makes him completely happy.

"Like a king visiting a penitentiary"

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Srila Prabhupada clarifies this in The Bhagavad-gita As It Is: "To pursue the transcendental path is more or less to declare war on illusory energy."
Krsna is supremely destructive. In His form as material time, He is killing millions of bodies daily. But that is all part of our desire; and part of His subsequent plan is to show us that real enjoyment is enjoyment according to His desire, not according to our plan for satisfying a miserable material body. So in the end, Krsna's activities are all nonviolent because His only purpose is to give peace. (The only place where there is no war is in the spiritual sky, where Krsna has His abode.)
We must declare war on maya, or illusion, and on her influence over our activities, if we are to become purified. Once having attained Krsna consciousness, however, there is no more war. The pure devotee is not touched by maya. He sees how the material nature is serving Krsna nicely deluding the fallen souls again and again until they slowly learn to take shelter of the lotus feet of Krsna and become freed from maya's laws.

Our present separation from Krsna is not caused by innocence or lack of knowledge. We are aware of what we're doing. We envy Krsna. We hate Him and the thought of bowing down to Him; we want to be Krsna. We are rebellious criminals; this world is a jailhouse where we continually riot, living like dogs and hogs.
To get out, we have to listen to the spiritual master, who is sometimes compared to a king visiting a penitentiary he is not subject to its laws. But many people are trying to get out the wrong way.

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Death and Life are in the Power of the Tongue
Posted by: Vera City ()
Date: May 10, 2016 06:43PM

This situation with Canada Girl is so sad.
She's caught between doing the right thing by exposing abusive practices in a cult and wanting to lead a spiritual life. No one should have to make these choices, but it is not without precedent.

No doubt she is a good person trying to bring value to her life and others. But she is being told to not speak ill of others who are seemingly on her same spiritual path, no matter who they are or what they do. This is the method used by all religions and cults bent on covering up crimes and abuses. We know all the stories. No one religion is exempt.

There is a lot to write about the possible motives of her guru. I personally do not think they are honorable. Either that or he has been fooled or threatened by Butler. We may never know.

This incident also further validates why people wish to remain anonymous as long as the cult can pressure and threaten people.


Canada girl might find it interesting that in Jewish traditions, there are extensive spiritual, ethical, and practical laws regarding speech. The Sefer Chofetz Chaim goes into great detail about proper and improper speech. I find it quite informative. On one hand we are advised not to speak ill of any one and to give others the benefit of the doubt; on the other hand we are instructed to correct others when they are doing harm to themselves or others. It is also considered a "mitzvah" (commandment) to warn others about bad people and charlatans; but there are many caveats.

The ethical considerations are illustrated by the following quotes:

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‘”Lo telech rachil b'ameicha” 'Do not go around spreading slander among your people, but also don't stand idly by when your neighbor's life is at stake; I am ADONAI.’” –Le 19:16.

Looking down on fellow brothers and sisters is in all manners wrong. All are of the same fabric and originate from The One Infinite, Perfect Source. The idea that His children are different in any way, lacking or wealthy, is the sole cause for all division and disharmony. God is the only judge, it is useless and time consuming for a human to try and assume His role. He does not condemn, but corrects, guiding toward an enlightened future." ~ Rabbi Israel Meir Kagan, DOB 2/6/1838 in Zhetel, Poland



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The Chofetz Chaim tells us, “Come see, my brother, how carefully one has to weigh each word [before speaking negatively] when someone has wronged him, because when he speaks he stands in great danger of transgressing the sin of loshon hora (gossip). Clearly, it is regarding this that we can say, ‘Death and life are in the power of the tongue’ (Mishlei 18:21). If one will not consider carefully before he speaks exactly how he is going to present the matter, he will surely stumble, G-d forbid. For at that moment, his anger will get the better of him and it will be impossible to exercise proper caution.”

When someone, without proper forethought, tells others how someone has hurt him or is planning to hurt him, his emotions quickly override his intentions...

Once one has decided exactly what he wants to say, he should carefully examine his presentation in the light of the seven requirements of constructive speech. He should analyze each thought. Does it contain anything inflammatory? Are there any exaggerations? One should consider possible questions which the listener might ask and how to respond. One should be prepared to respond quickly, without stumbling, for once the speaker begins to stumble, it will be hard for him to regain control of the conversation—and that is when loshon hora can begin. Furthermore, if the speaker will not prepare himself well, the listener may elicit information that should not be offered.

If these precautions seem excessive, imagine the precautions a person would take if he were working in a lab where deadly viruses are studied. That is how situations involving potential loshon hora should be treated, for as Shlomo HaMelech declared: “Death and life are in the power of the tongue.”

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However, there are some situations where we are not just permitted but are obligated to speak negatively of others. Usually (if not always), this is done in the defense of innocent victims and, as you say, is based on the second half of that same verse, “…do not stand idly by the blood of your neighbor.” If Bill is a kleptomaniac, do I have the right to share this information with Tony if there’s no conceivable chance Bill will ever get near Tony’s stuff? No. But if Tony is thinking of inviting Bill to stay for the weekend, I have the responsibility to tell Tony, in order to protect him from loss.

There are many situations where this principle could come into play. The most common is when being asked about a person for a job reference or for a shidduch (a prospective match). We don’t have free rein to go around badmouthing people, but there may be pieces of information that a potential boss or spouse needs to have in order to make an informed decision. You know that Bob made his MBA in PhotoShop? If you’re his reference, you must disclose that to the interviewer. You’re aware that Susie has a husband and six kids in another state? Her fiancé deserves to know that.

There are, however, conditions to sharing the negative that must be met:

(1) You have to know that the information you’re disclosing is true; you may not embellish or exaggerate;

(2) Sharing the information has to be the only way to protect the endangered party, or to accomplish some other necessary constructive purpose;

(3) The speaker’s intention must sincerely be to protect the endangered party or to accomplish the constructive goal. (If one is sharing information about a person he doesn’t like, it can be really hard to be objective about this!);

(4) The consequences of sharing the information cannot cause undue harm to the subject (and certainly not to anyone else!). If reporting that Joe took home a ball point pen from work will get him fired, the consequences are not commensurate with the offense and one might not be permitted to disclose that information.

Of course, there’s harm and then there’s harm. “Joe took home a ball point pen from work” is very different from “Joe is hiding in the alley with a machete, waiting to chop your head off.” The immediacy of the latter is clearly much more urgent. If you feel that a situation is truly dangerous, appropriate steps must be taken. That doesn’t necessarily make it easy.

Let’s take religion out of it for a minute and use the strictly-hypothetical example of someone questioning whether or not they should call Child Protective Services on a friend or neighbor. On the one hand, you’re hesitant to call – it will destroy your relationship, you’re afraid someone’s kids might get taken away unnecessarily, etc. On the other hand, you feel compelled to call – if you don’t and something bad happens, you’ll never forgive yourself! You’ll note how this scenario is a dilemma even before we add anyone’s religious sensibilities into the equation!

If you had a calling-CPS dilemma, you might describe the situation to a friend who’s a social worker and ask for guidance. They’re the expert and you value their insight into the matter. Similarly, if you have a non-urgent disclosure dilemma ...the best course of action is to ask an expert... There are times when we may or must disclose negative information but, when we’re involved, we’re not always the best judges of those situations.

However, as we said earlier, saving someone in imminent danger takes priority. In a case of clear and present danger, appropriate protective action must be taken immediately...and we don’t hesitate to reveal negative information. If your friend’s babysitter is a convicted sex offender, say something. Your neighbor’s daughter has been set up with a known date rapist? Share that information. This is even true in spiritual matters. For example, if your cousin’s new spiritual advisor is a [cult member], tell him.

We usually keep negative information to ourselves but sometimes we must reveal it. Just as we learn when to call an ambulance (for a heart attack, not for a splinter), we have to use good judgment to evaluate when to keep quiet, when to speak up, and when to ask for guidance."

Rabbi Jack Abramowitz, JITC Educational Correspondent

I would hope that Canada Girl would consider these ideas even though they do not come from her guru or spiritual tradition. In my opinion, by her truth telling, she may have already saved many lives. To me it is more spiritual to warn a person of a pitfall than to protect the person responsible for creating the deadly hole. I know many exers who would have greatly appreciated hearing the truth about this secretive group and thus avoided lost income, decades of their life, wrecked relationships, and damaged children.

And what is this guru really asking Canada Mother to do? What example will she be giving to her children? How will her children be equipped to deal with any abuses they may witness or experience? Will they be afraid to disclose abuses to their parents? How will she be able to protect her children? Having seen the agony that their Mom has gone through by disclosing secrets, will the children needlessly suffer in silence to protect the guru/religion/? How is this even spiritual? How is it even possible that the guru implies that Canada Mother is neglecting her children!? If he encourages silence regarding crazy and abusive behaviors he is complicit. What is this teaching her children? Sadly, it is a set up to keep her and her children vulnerable.

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The Power of the Spoken Word!
Date: May 11, 2016 04:08AM

Dear Readers, the last 2 pages on the Cult Forum, can be summarized with Vera City's’s last post:

"I would hope that Canada Girl would consider these ideas even though they do not come from her guru or spiritual tradition. In my opinion, by her truth telling, she may have already saved many lives.

To me it is more spiritual to warn a person of a pitfall than to protect the person responsible for creating the deadly hole.
I know many exers who would have greatly appreciated hearing the truth about this secretive group [ed note: Chris Butler’s Science of Idiocy] and thus avoided lost income, decades of their life, wrecked relationships, and damaged children."


Quote: "And what is this guru really asking Canada Mother to do? What example will she be giving to her children? How will her children be equipped to deal with any abuses they may witness or experience? Will they be afraid to disclose abuses to their parents? How will she be able to protect her children? Having seen the agony that their Mom has gone through by disclosing secrets, will the children needlessly suffer in silence to protect the guru/religion/?
How is this even spiritual? How is it even possible that the guru implies that Canada Mother is neglecting her children!? If he encourages silence regarding crazy and abusive behaviors he is complicit. What is this teaching her children? Sadly, it is a set up to keep her and her children vulnerable.” End quote.


Thank you Vera, could not have said it any better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2016 04:09AM by VoxVeritasVita Das.

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From the Frying Pan to the Fire
Posted by: Vera City ()
Date: May 11, 2016 04:36AM

Thank you Vox for your kind words.

I have a lot of compassion for Canada Girl and have been thinking a lot about her.
She must be going through some kind of hell right now.
I was looking forward to her advice and words of wisdom regarding how she was able to leave the cult and keep faith.

Now it appears that she may have gone from the frying pan to the fire. I wish her well and hope she sorts things out.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: dharmabum ()
Date: May 11, 2016 03:27PM

Bodhayan Swami, after all what happened to Canada Girl still sees good in Jagad Screwball. How f—king saintly.

What the hell is wrong with these Hare Krishna gurus? Had they not learned from the past? They condone evil based on their dogma. Bhaktivedanta knew full well about the sexual and physical abuses going on but did not do anything about it. Bodhayan Swami is at it again, and has brought it up a notch suppressing information. That just shows nothing much has changed in ISKCON. Truth will never become important to these SICKONs.

By right, ISKCON should have been forced to pay to the last cent for the crimes they were found guilty of, especially for the sexual abuse of gurukulis (children in boarding schools). They are given a chance for a reform for paying pittance to the victims. What our polite and generous society does not understand is that the evil is deep-seeded in the dogma. The dogma is the very life of the religion. Change to a Hare Krishna means death.

Any responsible member of an open and free society must be proactive in safeguarding our society especially the less fortunate, less educated, mentally challenged and the minors from these modern predators like Bodhayan Swami, Jagad Screwball and other gurus who hide behind religious facade. When you witnessed a crime, you have a moral obligation to report it to the police. It is within Rama’s rights to hold up information regarding abuse, exploitation and possibly crime to be readily available to authority and concerned advocates. I understand Canada Girl has five kids. The transcript is crucial to their safety. If anything happens to Canada Girl and her children, the authority will find in her statement gross disregard for decency the Hare Krishna dogma ingrains in the minds of followers. In fact, the authority should not wait until something wrong happens.

I hope her story leads to more victims speaking up. I feel, like Canada Girl, these brainwashed followers are held hostaged by circumstances, by design is to keep followers ignorant, in dire and intimidated of the ruling class so servitude is sustained.

My heartfelt concern for Canada Girl and her five children. My feeling is that they’ve nowhere to go but to stay in the cult and that spirals into an endless, vicious cycle. I hope somebody from Hawaii inform social services for help. If it is adults in religion they are normally reluctant to help, but with children, they are more helpful.

It’s 2016 and religious bullying still works. Sad!

There’s an explosion of thinking out there and children in the cult are still boxed in the old myth mindset, clinging to an ancient knowledge for their existence, that at best is bronze age technology and culture. For that alone, it’s society’s moral obligation to help free these innocent minds from the elite few that uses religion to subjugate their subjects like slaves, brainwashed to stay ignorant and intolerant to not question. That is cruel and should be unacceptable in any free and open society.

Society needs more scientists, more technicians, more psychologists, writers, artists, etc., that can only come from a mind that is free. It’s an exciting time, arguably the best time ever in the history of mankind. These children should be in school. This age is especially for them and the cult children are missing the boat. They are fed lies day in, day out, like there is a powerful being out there that controls everything and interferes in our earthly affairs, and worse, to access that being is through a mere mortal that not only shit the same shit we do, but their shit is purifying as claimed.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: May 11, 2016 10:02PM

(Grim)

If any of these devotees is subpoenaed to give testimony under oath, the officers of the law had better be aware that a devotee's "God" is not the same as "God"
as most of us understand "God".

It is possible that in this situation, the word "God" may, through lack of precision, include two different understandings of God -- GodA and GodK

GodA: the God most of us have in mind when we raise our hands and swear the oath to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help us God.

GodA works through matter, created the world and says it is good. GodA is not above matter.

GodA expects us to stand by our word, even if this means exposing crimes committed by a religion claiming to worship God A. .

GodA is the one we have in mind when we read .Exodus 23, "Thou must not follow a multitude to do evil."

GodA is the God of the Founding Fathers, who regarded all Americans as having equal dignity. GodA does not divide us into a hierarchical caste system.

The GodA is a God of justice, a God human beings can argue with, drive a bargain with - as Abraham did. GodA tells us .that "Yes" means "Yes", "No" means "No", and that your loyalty is undivided.

GodK hears the cries of the poor and says justice and compassion are better than any ritual, better than chanting, dancing, etc.

Let us examine GodK -- Krishna as taught by Srila Prabhupada of ISKCON

Krishna/GodK -- The God of Prabhupada and Chris Butler and .the God that ISKON and Butler devotees actually swear by when holding a copy of the Bhagavad Gita.

GodK regards some humans as better than others. GodK is a snob. GodK organizes humans into a caste system.

God K if you are poor and oppressed, you deserve it because you did something
bad in a past lifetime. GodK is one vicious son of a bitch.

GodK--GodK stands above the world of matter, stands above the world that GodA works in. GodK does not operate in the world of matter but loves only .Krishna cult devotees who has rejected the world.

GodK says it is virtuous and holy to lie if it advances the Krishna cult.

Anyone who is not a K cult devotee is an evil demon and an enemy of GodK

This is not the GodA of the Founding Fathers. THis is the GodK of Prabhupada and Chris Butler --and of all who take orders from them.

Officers of the law have to ask whether a Krishna devotee is swearing to tell the truth of GodA or the malleable context dependant 'truyth" of GodK, the one who
stole rice, danced with married women, and told Arjuna to do the dharma duty and kill, because in the end, death is mere illusion.

GodK plays games with human lives. The God who sees devotees as worthy and unbelievers as corrupt and part of an evil world.

GodK tells us it is OK to kill, lie and steal, if we are devoteed to Krishna
and if we have rejected the world of illusion and all the believers in it.

It is all just a game, leela.

Reject the world of illlusion, but court the citizens in that world of illusion who cast their votes.

(Ha, I actually wrote in error, "caste their votes")

Despise the unbelievers who are in the world of illusion, swear an oath in their courts to tell the truth, but smile sweetly at them, while knowing you serve GodK, not GodA, while letting the poor trusting fools assume you are praying to the same God they pray to.

It is all just GodK, Krishna's game - leela.

Do all you can to get tax exemptions so you can accumulate the money printed by that world of illusion.

It is all just GodK's, Krishna's game - leela.

To return to the story of the boy, his mother and the request for a snack,
let us take note that both a cookie and an apple could be called a snack.

But..the nutritional content of the cookie is different from the apple, making
the two quite different as snacks.

So, God, GodA, Krishna/GodK.

What's the difference in nutrition?

And..what may the difference be when swearing an oath - and canvassing for votes?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2017 09:09AM by corboy.

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