I have no problem with: "We are part and parcel of God and everyone else is too". In fact, that's pretty universal. The indoctrination comes in when in order to get in touch with God, you have to submit to a misogynist asshole guru and subject yourself to eating toenail clippings and drinking foot-wash water. That is clearly criminal and inhuman. That is pushing the envelope too far. All these moral teachings become facades to cover for psychological domination and criminal activities, especially when it involves innocent children. When old time disciples tolerate, cover up and help accomplish these they stop becoming innocent victims but complicit criminals.

Justice for Sri!

Since Tulsi’s endorsement of Bernie Sanders and dropping down from a key political post on the DNC, it has really got me thinking about Chris Butler’s own political education, his unusual background, and how this all led to his meddling in politics. Do not be fooled. Tulsi does not make a move without her (smiley face) “gurudev’s” permission. I have heard it said that if one lacks a true spirituality that they turn to either psychology or politics. I don’t know if that is true or not, but it seems to be the case with Mr. Butler.

How such an uneducated, inarticulate man has gone so far, as a powerful, unseen hand in major Hawaiian politics for decades is beyond comprehension. It is testament to both the laziness of the Hawaiian media and political class, along with the trusting nature of the Hawaiian people. How is it that this cynical deviant has convinced his followers that he is g0d’s representative on earth. One day he is supporting the right wing and the next, he is supporting the left. His followers go from chanting “Bush, Bush” to “Bernie, Bernie” with equally unthinking glee.

I am reading Chris Butler’s father’s book "Barbara" again. Bernie Sanders is like a Presidential wet dream for the late Willis Butler. Too bad he didn’t live so long to see it. He’d also be happy to see his son leave the dark side of right wing politics.

Article on Willis Butler before his death.

The book “Barbara” has been mentioned numerous times before on this forum. Here are some clips.

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atheist January 09, 2007
Yesterday I went to the Hawaii State Library in Honolulu and took out a copy of Dr. Willis Butler's book: "Barbara: Memoir of a Love Affair." (Published by AuthorHouse, 2006. ISBN 1-4208-6091-7 (sc)

I can tell you that this book is going to be of interest to anyone who is studying this cult.

Interestingly, in the book, Will Butler sometimes spells his youngest son's name "Chris" and sometimes spells it "Kris."

The family is not a warm and loving, close and harmonious "Father Knows Best" type of family. As of the writing of the book Will Butler is estranged from his oldest son, Kurt. Older sister Penny also had her ups and downs with the family.

Willis Butler's own family had problems, as well.

The book is an account of Barbara Butler's (Siddha's mom) 17 year battle with throat cancer. I believe she was a pack-a-day smoker until near the end.

Chris didn't attend the memorial service (Barb died October 29, 2003). Dr. Butler called Chris and left a message with a secretary. Will Butler writes: "He [Chris] called back: 'I probably won't come, I'm not much for partying.' [His word]."

The book mentions that Chris "wandered for years between Asia, Australia and the Philippines." If you are wondering where Chris is. I don't think he spends much time in Hawaii. If he does, he does it very quietly.

There's a chapter in the book that mentions Will Butler's purchase of the Quonset hut on the beach at Sunset Beach. They built four additional A-frame houses on the property and rented them out to surfers.

The Quonset hut was torn down and replaced with a duplex where brothers Kurt and Bruce lived.

From my brief reading of the book it seems that Siddha's brother, Bruce, still lives at Sunset Beach with his with his wife Ethelia and his children Radha, Gopal and Rama.

Will Butler gave the properties at Sunset Beach to his four children in 1993.

It's an interesting book. Barb and Willis Butler were progressive activists and not into religion. They were active in the civil rights movement in the South and in the anti Vietnam War movement in Hawaii.

Will Butler writes that the there were five people at the first anti Vietnam War protest in Hawaii. One of them was atheist Madalyn Murray O'Hair, who was just passing through.

Dr. Will Butler was one of the principals involved in setting up the Kaiser Permanente Health Plan here in Hawaii. This is a major health care provider here.

Barbara Butler had drinking problems. Interestingly, so did Dr. Willis Butler's mother.

This book is a must read!

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zelig, January 10, 2007
The Book “Barbara: Memoir of a Love Affair” is a good read and well worth the effort to understand the evolution of Kris Butler and his group. For those of you who love psychology, there is plenty of fodder for analysis! There is a family history of both religious fanaticism and schizophrenia. Most of the book centers on his wife, it is after all, the memoir of his love affair with her. All of the children are mentioned and clearly loved. He graciously allows their differing points of views with no bitterness. He does offer his opinion of Kris’s philosophy in humorous ways...

To understand how the children were raised, one only needs to be familiar with the pedagogy of the French Philosopher Rousseau.

“Rousseau expounded a new theory of education emphasizing the importance of expression rather than repression to produce a well-balanced, freethinking child. He explained his views on the benefits of health and physical exercise, and the belief that knowledge acquisition occurs though experience and that reason and investigation should replace arbitrary authority. He also proposed that education should follow natural inclination impulses and feelings (learning styles).”
…

I was also raised by liberal parents such as this. The irony is that many of these atheist, agnostic, and humanistic liberals created a generation of spiritual seeking kids that got into drugs and/or rebelled by becoming right wing conservatives!

Tuco says, “Waiting for Krishna is like waiting for Godot.”

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zelig, January 23, 2007
It is my opinion that CB was a born attention whore with charisma, but the more negative behaviors evolved over time. From "Barbara" you get the feeling, no matter how much Willis Butler tried to paint a nice picture, that Chris grew up with an alcoholic mother, adulterous parents, and a contolling father. This coupled with a psychotic break due to LSD created the man we know as CB.

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Vera City, June 13, 2008
This memo clearly marked “letter available to all disciples” shows CB in a false light. It shows a persona people thought they were following, but not the real person. It has already been shown that CB had no compassion for the health and well being of his followers. He may have had a heart for a dying bee, what he calls a “lower species of life” in the letter. “…I give them material care and spiritual care to the best of my ability without over doing it in the sense of spending 2 or 3 hours at the beach sitting with the bee.” In his father Willis Butler’s memoir about his mother, “Barbara: Memoir of Love Affair”, the senior Butler is clearly disappointed with his guru son because of the lack of visits he has with his mother dying of cancer. I guess he considered his dying mother less than a lower species of life.

In true narcissistic style he would have short visits to his dying mother where he would bring garlands made by his followers. In his mind CB thought he was bringing her “maha prasadam” (the highest, holiest leftovers from a “pure devotee” – anything that touched the body of the 'messiah' supposedly becomes transformed and possesses purifying powers). Willis writes in his book, “Chris brought gorgeous leis, often on January 13. Barb insisted sentimentally that he chose that day because it was his birthday.” I’d say she was being sarcastic!

Willis is respectful towards his son Chris in the book, but makes it clear that he does not buy into his son’s religion. “There are moments, rare ones, when I envy Bruce’s and Chris’s facile understanding of the body-soul relationship. Too bad it is based on a creed reflected in garish paintings of what Barb and I used to call (only privately, never to our sons) “little purple boys, beige fawns, and pink-girl children”… I once lashed out…, “I don’t want to hear about the subtle body and the gross body. I miss Ma!” Willis also writes, “Kris appeared for awhile and sat on her bed, whisper chanting “Hare Krishna.” I wished later I had played some of her favorite music.” About the funeral, “I called Chris and left a message with a secretary, of course. [Willis could not ever call his son directly.] He called back: “I probably won’t come, I’m not much for partying.” (his word)…he would not care for any event at which he was not the center of attention, with stately entrance, much bowing over folded hands, etc.”

I wonder if Willis Butler is aware of how much damage his son has done to the lives of many people…

The memo [about chanting to a dying bee] stands in stark contrast to the way CB lives his “real” life. There is the famous tape where he riles against a woman suffering from bulimia and a mother concerned about her child’s cough. So much for preaching compassion for lower or even higher species of life…

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Vera City, June 14, 2008


Monroe Elmon Dodd

I want to add a humorous note from Willis Butler’s book, “Barbara: Memoir of a Love Affair”. To set this up you need to know about Chris’s great uncle, Monroe Elmon Dodd. From the book; “Mother’s elder brother, Monroe Elmon, starred in her childhood by crossing all his fingers over each other, waving his hands in the air and striding about the yard weeping and praying in a loud voice, after which performance he would open his fingers explosively and cry “shoo geese!” Elmon had ended up at Shreveport and at the time of our residence there he was head of the huge Southern Baptist Convention (Church), the most exalted position in the country’s largest Protestant denomination. He was a pompous hypocrite who sermonized against drinking and during Prohibition kept a well-stocked wine cellar and used the best Bourbon for his Christmas eggnogs…Elmon’s literary fame became a popular family joke. He took a round-the-world trip, interviewing Mahatma Ghandi among others. His book was called “Girdling the Globe for God”, by Dodd. We of course at once switched that to “Girdling the Globe for Dodd, by God!” When my grandmother, “Mamma Dodd”, died…I was struck…by the contrast between Dr. Dodd’s loud, lugubrious and Scriptural ranting and the solemn and understated grief of my mother and father, who loved her deeply."

Later in the book Willis refers to Elmon again, this time in relation to Chris’s mother’s funeral ; “A grotesque fantasy crossed my mind. What if my uncle Elmon, my mother’s sanctimonious brother, the Chief Guru of the Southern Baptist Convention, had risen from the grave to join us? How I would have loved to watch the interaction between him and Chris!”

Wonder if Guru-psychosis is a hereditary condition! Either that or reincarnation exists! LOL!

I think the following comment was made after posting the letter where Chris Butler is ranting about not getting his mangoes or some such thing.

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Vera City, August 17, 2008

What is really astounding about this letter is CB's TOTAL inability to take ANY responsibility for his own problems and difficulties! He blames everyone but himself for his unhappiness, predicament, lack of foresight and organizational skills. LOOK IN THE MIRROR OH GOOROO!!!!!!!

He is still the little boy left in a gas station by his parents getting everyone around him to serve his every need (a reference to a story told by his father in the book "Barbara" where they accidentally drove off without him on a family vacation. When they realized that he was not in the car, they drove back to the gas station --- only to find a bunch of people doting on him and giving him candy. (Perhaps on a subconscious level they just wanted to dump this High Maintenance, self centered child!)

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Vera City, March 19, 2009

A little history: As an adolescent, Chris Butler studied a few books on zen and eastern philosophy and met a few guru guys. Couple this with some acid trips, a natural charisma, an unorthodox upbringing (with one or both parents having narcissistic tendencies), and you've got a screwball cocktail in the making! One day Chris decided to go up the mountain, claimed to have fasted a month, and had a vision of Krishna who named him "Sai". He started his Krishna Yoga Community after that with his hippie, surfer friends. Then ACB's gang got disturbed and said ,"Hey. you can't be a guru without having a guru!" This made everyone a bit uncomfortable, so little Chris/ Sai decided to mainline ISKCON, got initiated by ACB along with all of his "offered up" followers. (This is what I referred to as "back-pedaling". He reversed his enlightenment claims -- at least until later.) It didn't take Chris/Sai/Siddhaswarupananda Goswami long to figure out that the pure devotee act/ charade/ game/ facade (what I referred to as 'ACB's pure devotee/ "Prabhupad" gig') was good business. By the time ACB died, he already had a money making organization in place and took on the Heavy Weight Champion title of Guru to the World. This is a fact. It's all in Sai Speaks, Barbara (biography of Chris's mother by his father) and in The Haribol Special (on this forum).

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Vera City, June 12, 2010
What is interesting is that in Chris Butler's dad's book, "Barbara; Memior of a Love Affair" by Will Butler, details his dislike and battles with Dan Inouye! Will Butler was a progressive who had issues about Inouye's stance on Vietnam and later, his voting to fund military aid to the Salvadorian government. At this he wrote Inouye that he "regarded him as a murderer". Clearly, young Chris grew up in a household with strong leftist politics and a hatred for Inouye. Butler's rebellion took right turns. Another interesting note is that in the 1980's Inouye chaired special hearings on the Iran Contra investigations. There is a photo in "Barbara" of Ma and Bro Bruce Butler (now a follower) holding signs saying "No tax money for Contras".
Butler's family were progressives

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Vera City, October 30, 2010
It is no surprise that Butler (via his minions) is so active in politics. Butler's parents were well known liberal, progressive activists. This is documented extensively in Will Butler's book "Barbara; Memior of a Love Affair" , an autobiographical account of his marriage to Chris Butler's mom.

What is interesting is how far off his parent's track Chris went politically. The book does give one some insight into Chris's childhood and development into a "guru". But it was written by a greiving father's loving pen. There is a lot missing. The book also reveals narcissistic tendencies in the whole family.

As with Chris, the elder Butler also had an ax to grind with Senator Inoyue. He was angered by his support for military aid to the corrupt Salvatoran government. Our government finally admitted to the mass murder commited by American trained Atlacatl Batallion. Prior to that admission, Will had presented year after year corroborating documents that were ignored by Inoue. Will wrote him a letter at one point, "...in the same sense that an accomplice who supplies the guns for an armed robbery resulting in a death is a murderer." (pg 248).

Young Butler went after Inoyue again years later using his follower Rick Reed to engage in scandalous tactics. It backfired. It lost Reed the election and good reputation. But monkey see, monkey do, eh Rick. Anything for the guru. Perhaps they rationalized using dirty tricks and manipulations as justified karmically.

For pre 80’s followers the homophobia was not an issue. The first manager of Butler's original health food store on the island of Kauai (not called Down to Earth) was gay. This was in the 1970's. He ended up allegedly embezzling a lot of money after Chris scorned his advances. There were a few gay men who became interested in the cult but left. There were several lesbian women who were ostracized in the 80's. They also left due to the lack of understanding and acceptance. These were highly gifted and intelligent women who had given over their lives and the lives of their children to Butler. But ultimately, they were very lucky to escape.

Prior to the virulent and nasty anti-G&L stance, the most you would hear out of Butler was this or that person was a "tilly" implying that a follower should "man up". He'd also say things like, "Someone should just punch that guy out!" Monkey see - monkey do. Homophobic lingo is now engrained in the cult's culture and belief system. (Homophobia is not a doctrine of the host religion Bhakti Yoga - this is completely a Butler invention). What a sad legacy for Will and Barbara who fought so hard for human rights all their life. I would say to Butler and his followers that, "In the same sense that an accomplice who promotes hateful speech and prejudice that leads to the denying of civil rights and violence is a criminal!"

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dabcult, May 17, 2012
I just finish reading the book of Dr Willis Butler ..."BARBARA memoire of a love affair"

I think that what Dr Butler wrote on page 352...is most interesting .

At the time mother of Chris Butler had just pass away and Dr Butler invited Chris over the phone to come to a memorial in the honor Barbara.

Chris told Dr Butler that "I probably wont come,I am not much for partying "(his own words )

Dr Butler continue..."My interpretation was that Chris would not care for an event at which he would not be the center of attention with stately entrance

and much bowing down over folded hands..ext ...Was I unjust ?(to think like that )

I think that Dr Butler a wonderfull man that work and serve the poorest of the poor in Salma ..Alabama during the civil right mouvement

the poors of Mexico ....and the poors of MOLOKAI

the man that the HAWAII media of the time called the RED doctor of Molokai (for his socialist and communist affiliations)

must have had a good laught...withnessing his son delusions of grandeur

DR Butler obviously tought that the "MR Univers demand for the bowing down thing was way over the TOP .....an ego trip .

Barbara and Mr Butler..organise and trained black peoples in Salma and Montgommery ALABAMA....so that protesters could get immediate medical help for injuries that the police was inflicted on them .

They where even chase by the KLU KLUX KLAN at one point in their automobile.

Barbara and Willis where life long pacifist ....the very first to organise protest againts the Vietnam war in HAWAII
(only 5 people where at he first protest ....and Barbara and Willis where 2 of them )

Mr Butler told the US goverment when he was called to go to the KOREAN WAR....

that he belong to 300 subversive groups in the UNITED STATE ....and would simply no go to the Korean war (and he did not go )

He rejoice when the CUBAN revolution took place .....eventually visiting Cuba with Barbara (againts the permission of the USA)

He hated REGAN and its policies of murders in central America.

A truly remarquable man and women.........of the left .....far left

It is clear to me after reading this book that wherever " Mr UNIVERS" got his hatred for the homosexual community

HE DID NOT get it from the exemple of his mother and father that where lover of humanity ...from all races ,colors or genders .

How did a surfer bum from the NORTH SHORE become so "HOMOPHOBIC" ?? The answer must have its origin in the teachings of Swami Bhaktivedanta

who had no problems calling homosexual ...sinfull..demoniac..immoral ....lower than animals human beings

But in real life Swami Bhaktivedanta initiated hundreds of homosexual diciples....(he was so naive and old fashion that he could not tell who was what? ) (Or maybee he was so compassionate that he gave everyone an opportunity to serve KRISHNA )

It is also surprising that Chris Butler coming from a famaly that was so ANTI WAR ....socialist ...sympatiser of Communist Fidel Castro

would now send TULSI GABBARD...the daughter of his diciples MIKE and Carol GABBARD in the army .

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Vera City, May 17, 2012
dabcult - great post on the book Barbara. I also read it and found many things informative. The one family tendency that comes through is narcissism. Butler had it from an early age along with a charismatic personality. Do you remember the story where Chris was left at a gas station and when then returned to get him he had adoring fans who were giving him candy! He also had an uncle with extreme religious affections. Butler's Dad was a great and compassionate man who loved his son very much. He did not cover a lot about Chris in the book. Notice there are no photos of him but there were several of his other siblings. I am sure that was at Chis's request. From the book you can see that the better man is Chris's brother Bruce. I admire his loyalty to his Dad and Mom, even though he got duped into the cult by his brother...but again you see he has the quality of character that Chris lacks...loyalty.

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deathmeditation May 20, 2012
TAKEN FROM THE BOOK” BARBARA memoir of a love affair” by DR WILLIS BUTLER …the father of CHRIS BUTLER .
When the mother of Chris Butler pass away Dr Will Butler invited is son Chris over the phone to a memorial in honor of his mother but the son responded “I probably will not come,I am not much for partying”
Dr Butler :”My interpretation was that he did not care to come to an event
(even his mother memorial ) which he would not be the center of attention with much bowing over folded hands .

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2016 10:22PM by rrmoderator.

I can understand the frustration of someone working hard on something only to have someone else post something prematurely or whatever. At the same time, this forum is not a journalistic endeavor—by far. I'm sorry, but the forum is full of personal opinions and everyones reasons for posting are different and emotionally charged in varying ways.

If you are working on some specific piece, and don't want others to tread on the same territory—well, let us all know, we are all on the same side about this after all. Let everyone know that you are working on something and would appreciate any help or feedback.

On to other things: A recent observation and maybe this was mentioned here at some point before, is that I am really viewing this Tulsi/political involvement as some sort of diluted/deluded attempt by by butler to create a modern day Gita drama—with Tusli as his Arjuna and the charged current political landscape as a Kurakstera battlefield. Politics is a great way to "play god" while coming off as a "servant of the people". We've all hear the line before. From Nixon to Trump and all throughout history.

As far as this book that butlers dad wrote: it's a astoundingly horrible book cover. The fact that this Dr. even felt like writing a book about something that no sane human should even give a shit about is a sign of deeply rooted ego problems/trauma within the family (that one needs to pay $17 to hear about). Who in their right mind wants to read a book like that? It's plainly obvious that anyone who will sit on a big throne and accept people bowing to them and offering them flower garlands has deeply rooted attention issues. A real pious and humble person would not allow this kind of behavior from those who are inspired by their teachings.

I once recall one of my guru's telling me that I should not trust anyone darker than his skin color (he was white). Another one told me that it was not appropriate to refer to him and his wife as "You guys..." When I asked "Which part of the property would you guys like me to mow first today?". Here I was, free labor to mow this man's massive property on maui where only him and his wife resided. I build ponds for him, tended gardens, cooked, took care of the deities etc—and he got his BVDs in a bunch over a figure of speech... This, my friends, is ego with no limit. You can listen to certain butler lectures where his vile words to his simple minded followers or towards a minority group is basically a sound bite from one of Trumps talks/rants. They are bigoted, racist, mysogonistic, arrogant and lack any compassion. They put on a show and behind closed doors they go all out. Tusta Krishna and Butler had such foul language among themselves that if you were a fly on the wall yer wings would fall off.

I heard so many lecture where butler just could not get enough of bagging on homosexuals (and was made to write essays on this crap—sometimes having heard the lecture 6-10 times before, since for some reason butler just stopped giving lectures at some point). We were forced to watch completely vile anti-gay videos in the PI that left my stomach churning. They were scare-tactic videos showing poor gay men who were sick and dying from AIDS and close up clips of gay parades where men were engaging in intercourse in the street and so forth. We were between the ages of 10-16. I was 12. This was butlers great educational system. To create an army of bigoted, angry boys who knew tae kwon do, could not express them selves sexually without being viewed and made to feel as flawed specimens and animalistic and taught verse after verse from the Gita, a veritable war cry, instigating one to simply act and follow without thinking because it was your great and chosen "duty". Bravo! Hurrah!

Ahh yes, Barbara Butler.
What would she think now, of her son, Chris- The Jagad Guru
and all the terrible things that have happened due to his
existence?

Take a good look at Butler’s face.
Specifically certain markers.
Looks like Fetal Alcohol Syndrome to me.
You can add that to his narcissistic tendencies, bigotry, megalomania, cruelty and unfathomable stupidity & ignorance.

AND
Four decades later- they still offer obeisances to him!
Someone remind me- very early on in this thread- a post was made by a member stating that they once
heard Butler state that "he would rather be dead than have to get a job
and work for a living”?

I would say he has succeeded admirably on that point, and very little else.


~conversation overheard in the hallowed halls of the afterlife~

“Sara Borden: My my, who is that man speaking with Miss Barbara B today?
Joyce Flint Dahmer: why that is none other than Sri Shim, a recent arrival.
Kathleen Manson - oh dear...
Louise Bundy: ...awkward....”




~ All respects to the Shim Family ~
Justice for Sri

YIAN KOVIAC WROTE
"We were forced to watch completely vile anti-gay videos in the PI that left my stomach churning. They were scare-tactic videos showing poor gay men who were sick and dying from AIDS and close up clips of gay parades where men were engaging in intercourse in the street and so forth. We were between the ages of 10-16. I was 12. This was Butlers great educational system."

WOW I never heard that one before ...showing such videos to 10 and 12 years old
and on top telling them that they can have sex only to reproduce ..no masturbation ...ext while the master as his chinese contortionist to have all the sex he wanted....CRASY . Butler was surely quoting Swami Bhaktivedanta many verses that are anti Homosexual ...such as HOMOSEXUALITY IS DEMONIAC
but in reality unless Swami Bhaktivedanta was completely stupid ..The Hare Krishna mouvement was full of gay guys ...starting with Hayegriva (MR WEELER )who was the official editor of all the books of Swami Bhaktivedanta ...for Swami could not write english properly ...is first 3 books that where printed in India where full of errors ...So can you imagine Hayegriva a lifelong homosexual ...lover for many many years of vile Swami Kirtananda....having to write all those anti homosexual quotes CRASY ..(Hayegriva and Kirtananda where also pedophiles)But in reality there was an extreme tolerance for homosexual in all the temples of the Hare Krishna when Swami was alive ...
when I join in Los Angeles ...the main cook was gay ...and about 10 guys where so feminine ..it was obvious that they where gays...but no one said nothing
againts them ...live and let live was the moto ...as long as they where not active in the temples no one mind gays in ISKCON ... Many of Swami Bhaktivedanta favorites boys where gays..Bhavananda ...Kirtananda..Sudama ..ext
And as a gay friend who was in ISKCON for 20 years told me ...Listen Henry Krishna pictures is so endrogenous...gay guys are attracted to that blue God .
But Butler did not have ...the same vision or compassion as his own guru
Butler demonise gay people ...ultimatly accepting hundreds of thousands of dollrs from the far right Christians in Hawaii to organise anti homosexual propaganda with his faithful side kick Mike Gabbard (who sister is gay )
and one of the Bishop brothers told me that Bhakti Gabbard had been some years ago a male prostitute in Hawaii ...to help pay his heavy drug habits) CRASY HYPOCRISY...Its all ignorance anyway as it is now proven that homosexuality is
MOSTLY BUT NOT EXCLUSIVELY a genetic thing that is program from birth .What a nightmare to be born in such a cult and be gay ...Actually it did happen in Scientology (where the son of Ron Hobbart committed suicide) Ron was fiercly antihomosexual. Rama as talk about his cousins that his a lesbian now out of the cult ...I wonder how many butler kids did realise at some points that they where gay ...must have been hell ?
So my point here is that Butler who preach that he is a pure representative of Swami Bhaktivedanta ...the new improve PRABHUPAD ...did not have and does not have even a small part of the vast wisdom and common sense of Swami Bhaktivedanta ...who might have been wrong on many front ...but was also very compassionate to gay people in his mouvement.

There is zero tolerance for homosexuality in ISKCON and most of the other gaudiya institutions frown on it. I think Tripurari Maharaja had a more lenient approach to it. In general, while ACBS did not reject homosexuals, obviously they were not condoning marriages and relationships. Basically, a don't ask don't tell approach to living in the temple. It's not like you saw gay couples in any of these institutions openly hanging out and holding hands or in anyway showing affection. Geez, even married couples did not show affection. I have witnessed many situations where devotees were smashed by their gurus because they expresses a pubic affection (hand holding, hugs, kisses, glances, smiles).

I think the overarching issue is that none of these institutions have a right to demonize and be critical of gay life or dictate how a couple expresses affection and chooses to live. The Puranas and other scriptural texts are FULL of stories of inappropriate and over-sexed characters that "spill their seed" and "fall" form their positions as so-called warnings to those who are practicing a bhakti lifestyle. They urge that you dovetails those feelings with god by surrendering wholesale your senses to the pleasure of god. When that leaves you craving for human contact and a "real" relationship with a real person you can see, talk to and engage with, you are immediately viewed as fallen or impure.

As far as I know, the story of Butler's sanyassi rejection goes as such: He felt that he could not effectively preach to women unless he was married himself. Instead of choosing a homely wife that would not "agitate his senses" and disturb him, he went for his disciple's asian ex-wife who happened to be a yoga instructor. Of course no sane person would see there to be a logical link between preaching to women and maintaining celibacy. They are independent life choices. If you are fixed in your celibacy and are preaching a message of devotion to a promiscuous village deity, well then, sure, but in general, spirituality and practices like celibacy should not inhibit one from talking to women.

Obviously it wholly negates the concept of us not being the body if you are so disturbed by women that you cannot preach and instruct them in morality and god consciousness unless you marry and have sex. The learned man, in this case does distinguish between different bodies and recognizes the power of human sexuality. Butler was obviously shooting himself in the foot when he chose to marry. It pretty much negated his stance of not being the body and remaining stalwart and fixed in his celibacy and focus on his preaching and his god and guru.

Tusta krishna also broke off his sannyas, following in the footsteps of his bodgrother, Siddhaswarupananada Paramahamsa.

The main point is not weather there is some bits of truth here and there within the teachings of any number of these guru's, it's that they are teaching based on a highly questionable and flawed philosophical and scriptural system that seems to reinvent itself when convenient to accommodate just about any indiscretion and contradiction. This is called "making shit up as you go along".

I can only assume, that in full-fledged hare krishna style, Vashnava Dasi, Wai Lana, was offered to Siddhaswarupananda as a "loyal servant and partner". I doubt there was much in the way of a courtship, dating, seeing a movie or two or any real formality about it all. It was just a offering of "property" to the guru in the form of a woman deluded by her devotion and no doubt excited at the prospect of becoming a guru's wife. Both her and her kids were almost instantly elevated to superstar status within their cult.

To this day, there is literally no footage of the couple. The illusion is that they stayed young, I assume. They no longer teach, lecture or interact with the public in anyway. They are basically hidden from view and all that exists is a scientology-like afterglow.

The Science of Identity Foundation gives the vibe of something that is grounded in science and evidence and is progressive. Nothing can be further from the truth. You will be met with pictures of a young guru who you can never see, you can watch some old tapes form the 80s though. You will be told to chant some mantra and when you ask what the mantra means, you will be told it's a song about a cow-herding god who plays with young village girls and promotes genecide and uses repeated violence to solve social issues... And then you will be told that by doing this thing called "mantra meditation", your problems will melt away and you will realize that you are not your body and that you need to surrender to that 1980s version of Jagad Guru if you ever hope to make it out of this shit-hole life you have... very scientific and far reaching education going on here. And while you're at it, vote for Tulsi!

IAN KOVIAK
"There is zero tolerance for homosexuality in ISKCON and most of the other gaudiya institutions frown on it"

Not truth ...Bhavananda is a self declare homosexual since 1969
and until last month he was working on the Mayapur so called planeterium costing 100 millions dollars ...as chief designer .
Ambarish (alfred Ford )the great gran son of Henry Ford as always protected Bhavananda it is known that they where travelling together to gay destinations in the 1980 ies ...He is bisexual for sure .Anyway I know ISKCON if you have a lot of money ...or good connections with Jay Pataka Swami and others ...You can be gay there are still plenty around ...its the policy as you said ...DONT ASK DONT TELL ..thats still in place .As far as Butler is concern as anyone ever confronted MIKE GABBARD about his son Bhakti being bisexual...or being a male prostitute ....Its the same freaking hypocrisy .I visited Bhakti in jail when he was in Las Vegas ...he look and and sounded like a lost soul ...there where a few lines in the local papers about his incarsaration then nothing .
If you look for pictures of him on the internet ...not much either .
I met Butler one more time in the 80 ies at the Down to Earth health food store and he he was following Wai Lana ..like he was totally mesmerize by her
i went to talk to him for a few minutes ...but his attention was on Wai Lana
so he did not married Wai Lana as a service to Krishna ..for preaching purpose
it was to F...K just like the normal carnal being that we all are .
Anyway we all know on this forum that the Butler cult is a nest of lies and deceits ....

Hi guys, keep up the AWESOME work here, I'm slowly catching up but havent got all the way current yet.

Don't worry about me, i'm still here, For the record I never abandoned this forum or movement over a little turbulence within the movement. I left this thread the first time for the exact reasons I stated, that I had told my story and wanted to try to live my life without worrying about this crazy cult.

I'm not going anywhere, and our good friend Flash just needs to develop a little tougher constitution, in my opinion. "Man" up, Flash, we all love you and need you, and you know this. Learn to take a couple knocks to your ego and to the control you thought you had and thought was necessary. Well, you don't have the control that you thought, and it is unnecessary and quite counterproductive, obviously.

I love Flash, and I am forever grateful to his/her/it's amazing efforts and contributions to the fight against Chris Butler.

Flash is the single greatest researcher I have ever known, and their prowess has impressed me to no end ever since I got re-involved almost a year ago.

I do not want to see Flash disappear like a vapor into the internet, and I have been trying to talk sense into Flash. But, just incase fear and paranoia do win, save this most golden of all links:

[web.archive.org]

I love you all, you are all like family to me. Every one of you here or even some of the ones who only read but I've never met. Please introduce yourselves to me one day.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2016 05:37AM by Rama Das (slave name).