Moishe said:

"Inviting Jews, especially strangers, to a Shabbos meal is considered a Commandment from G-d"

If "G-D" told you to cut off a piece of your p.... Oh wait - you already do that.

Never mind. Carry on.

To your newborn babies without painkillers mind you....

Now THATS mesiras nefesh. :roll:

Moishe3rd:

I am not attempting to convert you and/or anyone else.

Believe whatever you wish.

Preaching is prohibited by the rules of the message board, which you read and agreed to before posting here.

FYI -- Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist Jews don't attempt to convert Orthodox or Chasidic Jews to their denomination of Judaism.

And until groups like Aish and Chabad began proselytizing it was unheard of amongst Jews.

What you seem to be saying here is that because God is supposedly on your side the "ends justify the means."

This is pretty much what most cults would typically say to rationalize whatever they practices they wish to do.

Aish, Seidel and Chabad have hurt Jewish families by recruiting people and this frequently has led to turning them against their families over a period of time.

This has included encouraging harsh criticism of families and old freinds if they won't embrace ultra-Orthodox practices.

Aish and Chabad have also often isolated new recruits in their schools and/or communities with little time or consideration for their non-Orthodox families.

There are also arranged marriages and the general disruption of any previous relationships, friendships and/or goals of the individuals they have recruited.

Young people that have come to Israel for what was to be a relatively brief vacation trip, as a result of recruitment, have not returned home for years.

"Bait and switch" is an old ploy often used by con men and salesmen.

This means baiting someone with something appealing (e.g. a free dinner) and then switching to something else (e.g. a hidden recruitment agenda).

Seidel invites people to dinner, but his real purpose is to recruit anyone he can for Aish and other ultra-Orthodox Jewish groups. He doesn't say this to the potential targeted recruit at the very begining.

Instead of just saying, "Would you like to come to a nice Shabbos dinner?"

Seidel should say, "Hi I am an Orthodox Jew. Would you like to become an Orthodox Jew?"

And then he might offer, "The Orthodox community has special Shabbos dinners for the purpose of introducing Jews like you to Orthodox Judaism. It's our hope that this will be the first step to becoming an Orthodox Jew."

This would be an honest approach.

However, Seidel apparently thinks he would not get many people to come if he used such an honest aproach explaining explicitly his intentions and actual agenda.

So he plays "bait and switch."

dv:

The purpose of this board is not to attack religious beliefs.

Please refrain from such attacks per the rules you agreed to before posting here.

Also refrain from "flaming" personal attacks.

Quote
rrmoderator
Moishe3rd:

I am not attempting to convert you and/or anyone else.

Believe whatever you wish.

Preaching is prohibited by the rules of the message board, which you read and agreed to before posting here.

I understand.
My purpose is the defense of what I consider blatantly false charges against people and organizations that are trying to accomplish good and decent goals. I really don't care what people "believe" unless your (or anyone else's) belief system is your rational for attempting to invalidate someone else's belief system.
If a person claims that Judaism is a crock and G-d does not exist - fine; you should live and be well.
However, if a person uses this Belief System of theirs to try and slander or defame those who do believe differently, then it seems logical to state that they are filtering the world through their particular system of belief.

Quote

FYI -- Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist Jews don't attempt to convert Orthodox or Chasidic Jews to their denomination of Judaism.

I would humbly submit that the constant denigration of Torah observant Judaism by those who are Reform, Conservative, or whatever, is an attack on the validity of Orthodox Judaism and an attempt to convert people to their non-Orthodox point of view. These kind of attacks (of which I consider the letter of the mother that you posted) are frequent and ubiquitous in the non-Torah observant world.
I would humbly submit that most of the posters in this thread are entirely about this kind of attack.
I would also humbly submit that your comparison of inviting someone for a Shabbos meal to the Moonies is a version of this kind of attack, albeit probably based upon ignorance.

Quote

And until groups like Aish and Chabad began proselytizing it was unheard of amongst Jews.

Without a knowledge of Judaism, I do not believe that you are able to understand what you believe. It is simply not true.
The Avraham Avinu snippet that I posted above? He invited people into his tent for a meal specifically, categorically, emphatically, so that he could tell them about the One, True G-d. Jews consider that the model to follow and have done so for the last 3,000 plus years. As Arabs also consider themselves Abraham's children, this has also been a cultic, ritual practice amongst Arabs and Muslims.
Jews have been proselytizing Jews for over 3,000 years. It's rather plainly and emphatically written in what we call the Torah, and what you might know of as the bible.

Quote

What you seem to be saying here is that because God is supposedly on your side the "ends justify the means."

This is pretty much what most cults would typically say to rationalize whatever they practices they wish to do.

Not at all. I don't believe that and I did not imply that.

Quote

Aish, Seidel and Chabad have hurt Jewish families by recruiting people and this frequently has led to turning them against their families over a period of time.

In your world, "recruiting" is a pejorative term that means trying to trick someone into doing something that they would not normally do.
This is not what any of the above do.

Quote

This has included encouraging harsh criticism of families and old freinds if they won't embrace ultra-Orthodox practices.

You would have to give me specific examples of what you mean by the above. I, nor anyone I know (which includes many Chabad rabbis; rabbis who invite people to Shabbos meals for the purpose of introducing non-observant Jews to Torah true Judaism; and rabbis from Aish who are actually paid to do outreach) has ever "encouraged harsh criticism of families and old friends if they won't embrace ultra-Orthodox practices."
As a matter of fact - precisely the exact opposite is true. People who are interested in becoming observant are encouraged to go slow and not alienate their friends and families.
Your charge is like something out of the Twilight Zone.

Quote

Aish and Chabad have also often isolated new recruits in their schools and/or communities with little time or consideration for their non-Orthodox families.

No, they haven't
I am quite sure, however, that some individuals, because of hostility from their non-Orthodox friends and family, have certainly isolated themselves or asked their rabbis if they think its good idea to go and live with their hostile non-Orthodox family (of whose food they cannot eat; who despise what the newly observant Jew considers various Commandments from G-d that are absolutely required to participate in every single day and moment...) and their rabbi has certainly advised it would be better not to until they are strong enough in their commitment to not give in to the obvious hostility and condemnation.
Which, by all appearances, is probably what happened with the son of the mother in the letter you posted.

Quote

There are also arranged marriages and the general disruption of any previous relationships, friendships and/or goals of the individuals they have recruited.

Arranged marriages? Now that's quite a feat. I've been trying to "arrange a marriage" for my daughter for a year or so. Do tell me how they do it.
:?
Please cite some concrete example of this "arranged marriage" that you are touting. It doesn't exist in the pejorative manner in which you seem to indicate.

Quote

Young people that have come to Israel for what was to be a relatively brief vacation trip, as a result of recruitment, have not returned home for years.

100% correct.
Some of them are even princes in Africa (look it up - it's a nice story).

Quote

"Bait and switch" is an old ploy often used by con men and salesmen.

This means baiting someone with something appealing (e.g. a free dinner) and then switching to something else (e.g. a hidden recruitment agenda).

Seidel invites people to dinner, but his real purpose is to recruit anyone he can for Aish and other ultra-Orthodox Jewish groups. He doesn't say this to the potential targeted recruit at the very begining.

Instead of just saying, "Would you like to come to a nice Shabbos dinner?"

Seidel should say, "Hi I am an Orthodox Jew. Would you like to become an Orthodox Jew?"

And then he might offer, "The Orthodox community has special Shabbos dinners for the purpose of introducing Jews like you to Orthodox Judaism. It's our hope that this will be the first step to becoming an Orthodox Jew."

This would be an honest approach.

However, Seidel apparently thinks he would not get many people to come if he used such an honest aproach explaining explicitly his intentions and actual agenda.

So he plays "bait and switch."

Again, this is incorrect.
I, nor anyone I know, has ever invited a non-observant Jew, whom we sincerely hope might be interested in becoming an observant Jew, by saying to them:
"Hi I am an Orthodox Jew. Would you like to become an Orthodox Jew?"

"The Orthodox community has special Shabbos dinners for the purpose of introducing Jews like you to Orthodox Judaism. It's our hope that this will be the first step to becoming an Orthodox Jew."

No, what we do is say - "We'd like to invite you for a Shabbos meal."
And most people say no. Because, well you know, Shabbos, that's the weird thing that Orthodox Jews do...
As do, I am quite sure, the majority of people that Jeff Seidel invites.

And some people say yes, and they come and they think it is all decidedly weird or complicated or incomprehensible or they are just not interested and we never see them again.
Which, I am sure, is what happens to most people that Jeff Seidel invites.

And, some people come and find it mildly interesting and they continue to stop by or learn a little or something over the years.
Which is what happens to some people Jeff Seidel invites.

And, some people really get turned on and pursue it.
Which is what happens to a tiny minority that Jeff Seidel invites.

And, of that tiny minority, most of these people have family and friends who believe that they have just gone stark raving bonkers because they are suddenly inspired to start learning Torah full time and they start wearing a beard or black hat or tzitzits (fringes) or speaking Hebrew or Yiddish and consult with rabbis about everything and completely change their lives from what they were before.
And, that ticks off their family and their friends and they conclude that the only possible way that someone could have changed their lives so radically is that someone "forced them to do it through brainwashing them."
Which, is, of course, untrue.
People actually do become inspired to change their lives when they discover something they feel is the Truth.

And, if your nefarious agenda were actually accurate, which would mean that Jeff Seidel and the others you mention were, indeed, callous human beings whose only concern was to suck people into their "cult," then why are they only picking on the tiny handful of Jews that come their way?
What about the other 99.9999% of the world?
If their motives were as you say?

Moishe3rd:

You say,

Quote

the constant denigration of Torah observant Judaism by those who are Reform, Conservative, or whatever, is an attack on the validity of Orthodox Judaism and an attempt to convert people to their non-Orthodox point of view.

But that is not the situation. No one is denigrating your beliefs.

The situation is that parents don't appareciate ultra-Orthodox groups like Aish and Chabad targeting their kids for recruitment, e.g. while on vacation in Israel.

And Reform and Conservative Jews don't do this to ultra-Orthodox kids.

Your comments,

Quote

Without a knowledge of Judaism...Torah observant Judaism

These remarks are somewhat revealing. Specifically, that you apparently have no respect for different denominations and expressions of Judaism other than your own.

Who is engaging in "denigration"?

You have now admitted,

Quote

I am quite sure, however, that some individuals, because of hostility from their non-Orthodox friends and family, have certainly isolated themselves or asked their rabbis if they think its good idea to go and live with their hostile non-Orthodox family (of whose food they cannot eat; who despise what the newly observant Jew considers various Commandments from G-d that are absolutely required to participate in every single day and moment...) and their rabbi has certainly advised it would be better not to until they are strong enough in their commitment to not give in to the obvious hostility and condemnation.

Though your spin on a new recruit's family supposed "hostility" is skewed and subjectively biased, this remark does reflect a tacit admission that ultra-Orthodox rabbis might isolate a new recruit to insulate him or her from outsiders, including family.

Again, this confirms many of the complaints I have received from Jewish families across the United States.

What you describe is a type of "we vs. they" mentality, which is often promoted by groups called "cults." This mindset denigrates family ties and very often can lead to family estrangement.

Several individuals that have been recruited by Aish and Chabad have told me about how their marriages were arranged. Typically, some are matched by their rabbi with another so-called "bal tzeuvah" Jew.

You say,

Quote

Shabbos, that's the weird thing that Orthodox Jews do

Again, this seems to reflect your implicit denigration of Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist Jews, that might observe Shabbos somewhat differently than you.

You admit that a,

Quote

tiny minority...are suddenly [sic] inspired to start learning Torah full time and they start wearing a beard or black hat or tzitzits (fringes) or speaking Hebrew or Yiddish and consult with rabbis about everything and completely change their lives from what they were before.

And you refer to this as the byproduct of Jeff Seidel's efforts, i.e. the "handful of Jews that come [his] way."

This of course is what actually motivates Seidel, Aish and Chabad to invite Jews to their "Shabbos dinners," which is the introductory means to eventually get that "tiny" "handful" to accept their iterpretation of Judaism, i.e. European ultra-Orthodox and/or Hasidic Judaism.

But Seidel, Aish and Chabad don't openly acknowledge this from the very beginning plainly with every potential recruit.

Perhaps if they did spell out their actual agenda the tiny handful you mention would be substantially reduced.

Sigh...
Well, I do believe I am shouting into the proverbial well, but I shall give it one last try...
You are positing an Orthodox Jewish world and a non-Orthodox Jewish world that does not exist.
The beliefs you have about Orthodox Judaism bear no relationship to reality.
If you scan this thread, you will see the ordinary comments of those who are not Torah observant Jews regarding those who are.
This is a denigration of the beliefs of Orthodox Jews.
It is completely ordinary and constant in the non-Torah observant Jewish world.
Are you telling me that this is not true?
Why?
It is printed here - on your website. I do not understand your denial.

Your phrase "targeting their kids for recruitment" is just wrong, but you apparently do not believe that this is what all Orthodox Jews are supposed to be doing to all other Jews (including other Orthodox Jews) everywhere; all the time; to everyone. It is a prime tenet of Judaism.
You believe that Jews should not do this and deny that they are called by their religion to do so.
This is your belief. It is not a Jewish belief. It is contrary to Jewish belief.
Yet, you insist that your belief is the one that all Jews ought to hold...
I do not understand.

You believe that Reform and Conservative Jews don't do this to "ultra" Orthodox kids (another misnomer - there is no such thing as "ultra" Orthodox, but that is indeed, semantics...)
Fine. Tell me then what do Reform and Conservative Jews believe about the religion of Judaism? Just a few basics? Something?
What are the primary differences in their expressions of the religion of Judaism? Anything?
I ask, because I do not believe that you have a knowledge of the religion of Judaism and therefore are making assumptions based on casual observations of your field of interest, which is cultic behavior.

I wish that you would actually state the exact case studies that "several people" have claimed regarding arranged marriages and deliberate isolation from their families, naming the particular rabbis involved, because these accusations are simply outrageous and unfounded.
If they were true, those particular rabbis would no longer be involved with Chabad or Aish.
I understand that I have a radically different viewpoint than do you of what Judaism is, but you are describing activities that are categorically condemned by the Torah and are not practiced by any Chabad or Aish rabbi that I have ever heard of... I have never even heard of such non-Jewish activities in left wing or secular Jewish publications who do, indeed, delight in denigrating Orthodox Judaism.
Please try and substantiate your accusations so that I might actually investigate such activity and stop it - if it really existed...

Keeping Shabbos means keeping the Laws of the Sabbath as described in the Torah to the best of one's ability.
You are perfectly free to not do so. To either ignore it all together or perhaps do a few things to remind yourself that it is the Sabbath.
But please do not then tell me I am denigrating your particular pursuit of of whatever it is that you do when [u:068ace1485]you [/u:068ace1485]tell me that my observance of the mitzvah of keeping Shabbos is weird.
Because the overwhelming majority of Jews are not observant. They know very little of what the Torah asks Jews to do. And they do find the rituals that the Orthodox engage in as far as the Sabbath, antiquated or anachronistic or foolish or simply "weird."
That's a fact.
It does not behoove you well to tell me that I am denigrating them because of what is rather plainly stated in the Torah, of which they have either no knowledge or have simply decided to ignore.

You are attributing base motives to those being discussed here.
You are, by doing so, claiming that the behaviors practiced by these particular individuals or organizations are not a fundamental part of the religion of Judaism.
You are claiming that the end product of these base motives is not to be desired - that a resurgent religiosity and all of its trappings is basically wrong.
You are claiming that these people or organizations ought to be informing those they speak to that they are extremely desirous of a resurgent religiosity in that particular individual.
This is your belief.
I, obviously, am of a different and somewhat diametrically opposed belief.

Thus far, I have seen nothing of the behaviors that you have mentioned as being any kind of "hidden subterfuge."

I would humbly request that you back up your accusations and assumptions with some factual data.
Please list the case studies of particular individuals who felt that they had been lied to or misinformed about a "hidden agenda" when an Orthodox Jew invited them to a Shabbos meal.

The long and the short of it is - Keeping Shabbos is a Commandment from G-d. Therefore, keeping the Sabbath is a religious practice.
Part of that religious practice is eating three meals - another specific Commandment from G-d.
Inviting guests to these meals, another specific Commandment from G-d, is considered part of the religious ritual that keeping the Sabbath entails.
It is simply part of the religion of Judaism.
You are claiming that one ought to explain all of the religious implications and rituals to anyone that one might invite to a Sabbath meal.

Should a Christian explain all the beliefs of Christianity before inviting someone to participate in their religious rituals? Should a Buddhist explain the whole megillah before inviting someone to meditate? Should a Hindu explain the sacrifices and all of the various natures of the Hindu pantheon before inviting someone to place devotions at a Temple? Should a Muslim explain the his desire that his friend become a Muslim before inviting him home to eat with his family?

There are many things that are assumed in this world. One of those things is that most Jews who are praying at the only site of the former House of G-d, the Temple, in Israel, the Land of the Jews, have a nodding acquaintance that the Sabbath is a Jewish religious ritual.
It is a fair assumption to make, particularly if that Jew accepts an invitation to eat a Sabbath meal with the actual statement in order to "find out what the Sabbath is really all about."
You are claiming this is deception.
It is not.

Quote
Moishe3rd

Should a Christian explain all the beliefs of Christianity before inviting someone to participate in their religious rituals? Should a Buddhist explain the whole megillah before inviting someone to meditate? Should a Hindu explain the sacrifices and all of the various natures of the Hindu pantheon before inviting someone to place devotions at a Temple? Should a Muslim explain the his desire that his friend become a Muslim before inviting him home to eat with his family?

For the most part it does seem like those other religions you list explain their beliefs beforehand.

Christians are fairly upfront about Jesus and his teachings. The only ritual I'm aware of is when they drink wine and eat bread that is supposed to symbolize Jesus. If they don't explain that then it would make no sense to someone new and they clearly do explain that.

Buddhists might or might not explain the whole megillah, but what is there to really explain about meditation? They ask you to sit still and breathe in and out deeply. Buddhism isn't really a religion either compared to the big 3.

Now it seems like Muslims have a similar practice to Jews and so I would imagine that in this case, yes they should explain their intentions as the moderator has stated.

The first thing even a Hare Krishna offered to me was the text they read. Other religions do explain themselves, so I would agree with the moderator's description of "bait and switch". You even admit that most people would most likely not take up on the offer if they were asked outright if they wanted to be Orthodox Jews.

Quote

There are many things that are assumed in this world. One of those things is that most Jews who are praying at the only site of the former House of G-d, the Temple, in Israel, the Land of the Jews, have a nodding acquaintance that the Sabbath is a Jewish religious ritual.
It is a fair assumption to make, particularly if that Jew accepts an invitation to eat a Sabbath meal with the actual statement in order to "find out what the Sabbath is really all about."
You are claiming this is deception.
It is not.

You are being deceptive by saying "finding out about Shabbath". It's not merely finding out about Shabbath, but rather in this case about Orthodox Judaism as the moderator has specifically stated. Now out of those above religions listed, how many of those would cause kids to stay in a country and refuse to even come home?

Quote

Fine. Tell me then what do Reform and Conservative Jews believe about the religion of Judaism? Just a few basics? Something?
What are the primary differences in their expressions of the religion of Judaism? Anything?

I'm not sure why you need to ask because you have already listed a few of the practices of Orthodox Jews like wearing different clothing and Tzitzits which non-orthodox Jews don't obviously follow. How about also not sucking the blood from the circumcision wound? I'm sure there is quite a lot of other rituals non-orthodox Jews don't follow.

Moishe3
From a couple of your comments, ( ie Torah =bible,only a casual acquantance with Judaism), I am not sure you are familiar with Mr Ross' history.
As far as I know, Mr Ross first started cult work after a christian group tried to convert his Jewish grandmother.Think he has also worked as a Jewish religious advisor in the prisons.(Sorry not sure of the details, Mr Ross please correct me if I am wrong).

You are not communicating wiht a christian with minimal understanding of your religion.
Just had to add this as I thought it might clear up an apparent misunderstanding.

Thanks Yasmin.

Yes my work began within the Jewish community regarding unethical prosyletizing targeting Jews.

I once worked for Jewish Family and Children's Service and also the Bureau of Jewish Education in Phoenix, Arizona.

During the 1980s I served on national committees for the Reform Movment of Judaism, which is the largest Jewish denomination in the United States, officially called the Union of American Hebrew Congregations (UAHC).

Unethical proselytizing is wrong, whether its done by Christians, Jews, or anyone.

Missionaries should approach people openly and honestly, admitting their agenda from the beginning.

Having said that, you can see from Moishe3rd's posts that he exhibits a mindset intolerant of other beliefs and essentially ethnocentric, even when it comes to Jews from other denominations (e.g. Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist congreagations).

Perhaps it is like "shouting into the proverbial well" to expect someone like Moishe3rd to respect Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist Jews, recognizing that all Jews have a right to practice Judaism within the parameters of their own denominations.

Apparently whenever anyone disagrees with him Moishe3rd believes that is the equivalent of disagreeing with "God," the "Torah" and somehow constitutes "a denigraation of the beliefs of Orthodox Jews.

For Moishe3rd the world is sharply divided into black and white.

There are "Torah observant Jews" and "the non-Torah observant Jewish world."

This type of mindset doesn't allow for Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist Jews to exist as legitimate expressions of Judaism.

This is why people like Moishe3rd support "Jewish Outeach," as a means of converting people they see as "sinful" Jews to what they consider the only way to be a religious Jew.

What apparently upsets many ultra-Orthodox Jews is the success of modern denominations of Judaism.

All ultra-Orthodox Hasidic sects combined actually represent a relatively small number of Jews (about 300,00). Whereas the Reform and Conservative synagogue movements are larger.

41 percent of American Jews belong to a Reform congregation, 41 percent to a Conservative synagogue and 18 percent to Orthodox.

See [www.ujc.org]

Orthodox would include both the Orthodox Union (OU), which is a largest denomination of Orthodox Jews in the US and all Hasidic sects, which would include groups like the Chabad.

In Israel, a Jewish state, the affiliation rate of Jews is actually lower than in the United States.

The relatively recent efforts by ultra-Orthodox groups like the Chabad and Aish to target young people from other Jewish denominations can be seen as a tacit admission that growth trends favor the other more modern Jewish denominations, despite their much higher birthrate.

Proselytizing young people on vacation in Israel, going after schoolchildren through various programs, has become an apparent ultra-Orthodox response to this reality.

Please understand that Judaism has always changed and evolved, and this perhaps explains its ability to survive through thousands of years as one of the world's oldest relgions.

European Hasidic Judaism, with its "black hats" and "Yiddishkite," is only one expression of this fact. Hasidic began in the 17th Century amidst much criticism and controversy. And it was never unieversally accepted as the only legitimate expression of Judaism.

What people like Moishe3rd seem to fear, is the ability of Jews to change and have choices, regarding their expression of Judaism.

And what has become apparent through Moishe3rd's posts here is that he has little respect for Jewish families that wish to affiliate with denominations he doesn't like and refuses to recognize as a legitimate practice of Judaism.